City of Heroes 1.5

[HeliumPhoenix]

I'd like to introduce you to these things, they're called Invention Sets. They have extra perks. Few folks had more than a handful of Hamis (if any) by late game.

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Enhancement_Sets

Oh, I was quite familiar with them.  And the exorbitant cost for the salvage items needed to make any of the good sets.  My 50s had several sets each.  But they also used HOs to fill out sets where going beyond a certain number didn't really give the toon much benefit.

I don't want to have my characters obsoleted in the space of one login. It's one reason why I spend so little time in other MMOs that regularly raise the level cap (e.g. WoW). Constantly chasing a moving goalpost is NOT my idea of a good time.

I don't see how a level cap increase 'obsoletes' a character.  It just means that character gets to progress further.  With the limits of end-game content (nothing but raids, nothing that could just be handled with a single team or, heaven forbid, solo'd) it would mean the ability to progress further without those limits.  Agreed, there will ALWAYS be some point at which you have to just say 'no more' as you can't just have no level cap (well, you can, but at some point the advantages of it get bogged down with balancing details and such.)

I always thought 50 was a bit of a 'small' level cap to begin with.  I'd always hoped the incarnate system would have added 'incarnate levels' that didn't involve a bunch of raid farming.....but that hope didn't pan out.

[hurple]

I don't see how a level cap increase 'obsoletes' a character.  It just means that character gets to progress further.  With the limits of end-game content (nothing but raids, nothing that could just be handled with a single team or, heaven forbid, solo'd) it would mean the ability to progress further without those limits.  Agreed, there will ALWAYS be some point at which you have to just say 'no more' as you can't just have no level cap (well, you can, but at some point the advantages of it get bogged down with balancing details and such.)

I always thought 50 was a bit of a 'small' level cap to begin with.  I'd always hoped the incarnate system would have added 'incarnate levels' that didn't involve a bunch of raid farming.....but that hope didn't pan out.

I had about 15 level 50's and not one Incarnate.  I would play a toon to 50 then retire him and start a new one.  Why?  Because the repetitive Incarnate trials and farming mission after mission got soooo dull and boring having to do the same things over and over and over and over and over just to get that one more needed piece... And the raid teams were so friggin' huge it was impossible to know what was going on, and laggy, and just rush rush rush... do it as fast as possible and move on... no chance to actually, y'know, enjoy the story... Ugh.

[Rejolt]

Halo is the same 30 Seconds of gameplay repeated. It's on the 5th sequel and can keep an entire console afloat by itself.

I loved CoH's gameplay. I could repeatedly play just about anything (well, maybe not the old sewer trial).

[Vee]

I think the incarnate system, as much as I hated running trials after the first few dozen (or worse, waiting around for them to start), was a good compromise between the level cap and continued progression. I can't imagine the rage had they raised the level cap after all that time at 50. Hell, I'd have raged - you mean my umpteen level 50s that were done are now not done and their expensive builds are also outleveled? Sure there was some of the not-done-ness with incarnates but at least your builds didn't have to be redone.

[HeliumPhoenix]

I think having 'incarnate' levels would solve it.  You hit 50, go through the Incarnate 'intro missions' and you are level 50 still, but a level 1 incarnate.

Incarnate levels would open 'Incarnate' powers that are beyond the existing ones, but also in the same trees......i.e., there would be Fire Blast Incarnate powers, Force Field Incarnate powers, etc.  These powers would be quite powerful, though typically have exceedingly large recharge times.

And just to make doing regular stuff still helpful, Lieutenants and Bosses and Higher give Incarnate XP......at 1/100th of normal XP (but never less than 1XP).  Normal minions don't give incarnate XP.

Not sure if I'd allow slotting enhancements into incarnate powers.....might get off balance too quickly.

And if you don't want a 'level cap' at all, Incarnate levels beyond 10 don't actually increase your incarnate level, but increase the recharge on all your incarnate powers slightly.  So, at some point, you'd be truly godlike, able to fire off Incarnate powers as fast as you could mash the buttons......the only solo challenge left would be some Giant Monsters and some Archvillians.

[Paragon Avenger]

Yeah, the Incarnate stuff was better than just popping the level cap to 60 or 88 or 99.
I didn't like the trials.  Or rather, I didn't like waiting around for them to start.  Doing the same trials over-and-over again.
I think getting Incarnate XP for "helping" lower levels do regular stuff is a good idea.
I also like the idea of a progression system that is separate from the level 1-50 powers.  So that as you progress, you can recharge faster or do more damage or have a secondary effect like some kind of buff/debuff.
Maybe even like the epics, have another form to transform into that had it's own build.

Some of my characters, I just wanted to get them to the highest level and be done with them.
Others of mine, I wanted to make them as powerful and as awesome as possible.

[FeliciaDivine]

 I disagree with many of you...Incarnates led to farming and unbalanced play with non-incarnates...some of you did say that but your idea of keeping the system does not sit well with me...having an increase in level...say level 50-54 to match the NPC villians would be ok but the problem remains...too much power.
 People were already soloing TF's without Incarnates...that alone says there is a problem...TF's are specifically for Teams. Adjusting to 4x8 and still taking out NPC's without problems...shows a lack of challenge.
 Some of you power leveled your characters in 3 hours...you did not learn anything, put any effort into anything and already missed all the game content...why did you bother to play at all...sounds like Mario Brothers is more your speed.
 Reminds me of the video's Push My Awesome Button! by ncsoftnorcal on you tube, check it out.

 The game should be challenging and entertaining otherwise it would be...oh wait...it already has been...shut down

Before you flame war this let me post my changes:

- Go back to fewer NPC's and spawn less like in the old days so new people at low level can have rest spots when learning the game this will also cut down on lag.
- AE content should be the same drops and xp as in-game content so those choosing AE can enjoy it.
- Have option to which area you wish to start in Hero, Rogue or Villain instead of the Shivan war thing.
- remove odd new buildings such as 1st National Bank in Atlas which is sitting between 2 old buildings...also the new Building other side of the lake used to be the first encounter area for clockwork...its now too clean and there is no trashed back area.
- New low level stories so there is more options for older players.
- Frequency of mid, high and purple drops increased slightly so people don't have to farm for them.
- Allow more NPC's to be used as pets (reinforcements) through missions just like the Clockwork Gears, Warwolf Whistle, Shivan, etc. (this will help soloists)
- More high level content but remove Incarnates System or have an option to remove it like we had the Second Build option...which helped us bounce between PvP and PvE characters.
- Remove some of the NPC mission givers and have more of the stories given to most used NPC's like the 5 in Atlas City Hall.
- Move the Warshade NPC from Atlas City Hall to her own location, maybe on the other side of the park from the Peacebringer NPC.

I have other ideas ill share later.
 

[Vee]

So your solutions to the game being too easy include adding regular drops to AE (which would make farming good stuff easier), smaller spawns and more temp pets? OK then.

[Microcosm]

The "lack of challenge" and "smaller spawns" sounds a bit like Jack Emmert. Champions Online is thataway -->

I hope pretty much none of this stuff happens, because, with everyone wanting different things, if everyone gets what they want, then nobody gets what they want. Since we all enjoyed the game, problems and all, let's just have it back as-is and not break it horribly by trying to fix it.

[Codewalker]

Since we all enjoyed the game, problems and all, let's just have it back as-is and not break it horribly by trying to fix it.

This ^^^

I wish more people understood that.

[Surelle]

The "lack of challenge" and "smaller spawns" sounds a bit like Jack Emmert. Champions Online is thataway -->

I hope pretty much none of this stuff happens, because, with everyone wanting different things, if everyone gets what they want, then nobody gets what they want. Since we all enjoyed the game, problems and all, let's just have it back as-is and not break it horribly by trying to fix it.

I feel this way as well.  If people want to screw with CoH, then they can feel free to create their own version and go from there.  Please don't mess with ours, though....thanks.

[hurple]

I feel this way as well.  If people want to screw with CoH, then they can feel free to create their own version and go from there.  Please don't mess with ours, though....thanks.

Absolutely.

[blacksly]

People were already soloing TF's without Incarnates...that alone says there is a problem...

I kind of agree with the idea that there is a problem. Theoretically, the idea would be to just allow higher difficulty settings until anyone is overwhelmed, but then we run into several issues:
1: spawn sizes too large, which creates issues with graphics, spawn separation, and lag
2: if defense is what is too strong (and it really is), then players are unlikely to raise the difficulty to where the game is reasonably challenging, since killing may become too tedious.

However, I do not like the idea of generic solutions, because the game is challenging enough at lower levels and also with characters that aren't min-maxed. The TF-soloers and others at 4x8 are very good players with great builds, and I don't want to beat on the game for casual players without in-depth knowledge of the IO system just to fix the min-maxed outliers. The solution should really be something that directly and only affects the power builds, and what I suggest is to limit set bonuses to 3x instead of 5x. Your casual players aren't likely to be hurt by it (many wouldn't even be making a build heavy with major IO sets), whereas the power builds are going to be greatly limited, whether they're building for Defense or Recharge. I don't know if this is a perfect solution, but it's the perfect type of solution (assuming you agree that there is a problem at the top end).

[FeliciaDivine]

 The point with the AE drops was to make it fun for people to run newly created content by players if people get tired of running the regular missions in the game...some people will farm anyways no matter what...so it doesn't matter if the AE drops are changed for them.

 The NPC's added as backup is for those who can't find a team at the time...some of you stated your soloists...so this idea was for you.

 I am a team oriented player, I don't farm, I don't run solo very often. I look at the overall gameplay of everyone...my ideas are formed by observations from our community.

 As for bringing the game back as it currently is...I can live with that too.
 Ouroboros has the older content so I wont be missing out on anything.
 AE was a great outlet for my creativity.

 My concern though is how do you bring new players to the game...if left as is...the hardcore people will return...if that is enough Codewalker then it should be kept as is...BUT...if your going to try to get new players...or players who will stay more than a couple of hours to farm a month...The game has to change!!!
 The game constantly evolved...we did not start with Ouroboros...or WentWorth's...or AE...it all grew and expanded in time....something to consider.

And this thread isn't about CoH Classic...this thread is specifically about 1.5 which means...changes.

[saipaman]

The only changes I'd make in a revived CoX would be to add more single player Incarnate content to the game.

Perhaps I'm in the minority, but the Incarnate Task Forces seemed disconnected from the rest of the game.   Single player stories could pull those TFs together into a more coherent story arc.  I wouldn't make those stories mandatory.  I'd just put them there for those that might want to play them.

[hurple]

The only changes I'd make in a revived CoX would be to add more single player Incarnate content to the game.

Perhaps I'm in the minority, but the Incarnate Task Forces seemed disconnected from the rest of the game.   Single player stories could pull those TFs together into a more coherent story arc.  I wouldn't make those stories mandatory.  I'd just put them there for those that might want to play them.

That's a great idea, and would likely make me pay more attention to Incarnate stuff rather than abandon lvl 50's and start over.

I have one suggestion for improvement.  It's just two words.  VIRTUAL REALITY.

 

[FeliciaDivine]

 Saipaman that is a great idea, better content for solo or small teams then incarnates wouldn't feel so forced for farming. I am totally with you on that one
 
 I would like to also add...level 20-50 content for praetorian eventually...not right away this would take time to do...but then it would feel more consistant with the rest of the zones.

 Virtual Reality sets have been flogged since the mid 80's that I remember seeing them and they have not improved all that much, its a novelty thing...maybe someday it will become a normal part of a game system but until its widely used and cost effective don't hold your breath for that one.

[hurple]

Saipaman that is a great idea, better content for solo or small teams then incarnates wouldn't feel so forced for farming. I am totally with you on that one
 
 I would like to also add...level 20-50 content for praetorian eventually...not right away this would take time to do...but then it would feel more consistant with the rest of the zones.

 Virtual Reality sets have been flogged since the mid 80's that I remember seeing them and they have not improved all that much, its a novelty thing...maybe someday it will become a normal part of a game system but until its widely used and cost effective don't hold your breath for that one.

Would love to see more Praetoria too.  What was there was fun, just seemed like a waste of time to do it, then have to jump to Paragon City at 20.

And the Virtual Reality thing was a joke... 

[Vee]

I remember playing a working Virtual Reality at Disney World in 1995 that was amazing. It was an Aladdin game where you'd sit on this thing that was roughly the shape of a Return of the Jedi speeder and use it to control your magic carpet flying over whatever town Aladdin was set in. The VR worked perfectly and the graphics were well above the console/pc level of the time. It was very limited and they only had 3 of them that they called kids up to demonstrate while everyone else watched what they were doing on a screen, but if you applied, say, 20 years of lowering tech prices and graphics enhancements to it it would be unreal. The problem was that they put out crappy early versions of VR, which of course tanked because they were crappy.

All that being said, I'm pretty sure fly and superspeed in CoH would make me dizzy in VR.

[hurple]

I remember playing a working Virtual Reality at Disney World in 1995 that was amazing. It was an Aladdin game where you'd sit on this thing that was roughly the shape of a Return of the Jedi speeder and use it to control your magic carpet flying over whatever town Aladdin was set in. The VR worked perfectly and the graphics were well above the console/pc level of the time. It was very limited and they only had 3 of them that they called kids up to demonstrate while everyone else watched what they were doing on a screen, but if you applied, say, 20 years of lowering tech prices and graphics enhancements to it it would be unreal. The problem was that they put out crappy early versions of VR, which of course tanked because they were crappy.

All that being said, I'm pretty sure fly and superspeed in CoH would make me dizzy in VR.

And I'd hate to face-off against an arch-villain with knockback capabilities.