Author Topic: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?  (Read 21861 times)

robo40

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Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« on: February 06, 2015, 03:54:56 PM »
While whittling the time until reinstatement, I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one working in Mids dusting off old builds and hypothesizing.  The main wildcard in toon design is whether we will be starting with an empty marketplace, or if choice IO's will somehow be made available.  In either case, however, it's hard for me to come up with a better choice than Shield for melee toons.  *With the important caveat that I want a versatile toon who can experience all content smoothly, either solo or on a team*.  Does anyone have any good arguments for other choices, either in theory or from personal experience?  Thanks!

robo40

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Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2015, 03:59:53 PM »
Pros of SD:

Easy to hit defense cap vs virtually any attack in the game
Excellent debuff res
+HP
+Dam
a solid AOE attack

Power Gamer

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Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2015, 06:16:48 PM »
Sheild was my fav melee choice.
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P51mus

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Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2015, 08:43:14 PM »
Well, it'll probably take some time for the market to recover, so you might have trouble IOing yourself to godliness with that set.  I think some other sets like Willpower have better performance on SOs.  And might work better with a wider variety of team buffs.

Also, there's some attack sets that just aren't allowed to be used with shield.  Like Titan weapons and  Spines.

Vee

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Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2015, 09:40:35 PM »
Shield was my favorite though it was a bit rough on endurance while leveling. The fix of the ddr in that one hami kind of hit it hard though. Really though I can't imagine using the same thing on every melee toon, I need some variety even if some end up less powerful.

hurple

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Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2015, 09:44:32 PM »
Shield was my favorite though it was a bit rough on endurance while leveling. The fix of the ddr in that one hami kind of hit it hard though. Really though I can't imagine using the same thing on every melee toon, I need some variety even if some end up less powerful.

Amen to that!


Ankhammon

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Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2015, 07:03:53 AM »
I have to go with Willpower as a good alternative.


And if you are looking for a smooth ride to 50, you might want to look at a crazy combo I tried once that was actually pretty good. Shield/Ice tank.

It had very nice aoe and loads of control to go with the goodness in shield. only a touch low on single target damage but you can make up some of the trouble with lightning fast attacks.

Bonus: it's very easy to make him look like Iceman but with an ice shield. :)


Honestly, you can make a good argument for fire/ice tanking too. I know brutes and scrappers get all the glory but /ice melee is a very good complementary power on any tank and it does more damage than many thing (cuz of dots and whatnot).
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Minotaur

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Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2015, 10:59:49 AM »
Shield was my favorite though it was a bit rough on endurance while leveling. The fix of the ddr in that one hami kind of hit it hard though. Really though I can't imagine using the same thing on every melee toon, I need some variety even if some end up less powerful.

A bit rough on endurance while levelling ? try dark/stone tank which is truly awesome once you fix the end usage against everything except LR unless you have good buffing. 2 AoE stuns so you can one shot stun everything including bosses.

robo40

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Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2015, 01:35:29 PM »
Good stuff.  I was using Hami's for ddr right up to the end.  Had they stopped working and I never noticed?  I would think losing max ddr would have been hard to overlook, but who knows?

Agree that WP would also give a smooth ride to 50 without all the IO toys.  I think SD Tanks could still softcap fairly easily, but Brutes and Scrappers could both argue for WP if we're on a budget.  The pro for SD would be higher top end in the long run, once the bling comes back.  SS/WP Brute was probably the easiest path to 50 I ever had on a toon, but that was without a budget.  However, I rarely played him after 50, something else always had more appeal.  He couldn't compare to my Dark/SD scrapper.

Not sure that Stone will do so well until we get full IO access back, or give a smooth ride.  Agree that /Ice was an overlooked secondary that made for some nice combos.  But what got me started on this was that SD is so good for all melee types (when permitted).  Definitely wouldn't want to play it on all my toons, but for a (re)starter it seemed like such a clear choice that I was curious what counterpoints I may have overlooked.

Vee

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Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2015, 08:40:51 PM »
A bit rough on endurance while levelling ? try dark/stone tank which is truly awesome once you fix the end usage against everything except LR unless you have good buffing. 2 AoE stuns so you can one shot stun everything including bosses.
Well there's a bit rough and then there's dark armor.

And yeah they fixed the hami which was giving ddr (membrane i think). it wasn't supposed to in the first place but it had been for so long it felt like a nerf. i felt it more on my widow than shield but shield could get cascading defense failure on things like trying to solo rooms on the rescue sybils part of itf.

robo40

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Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2015, 10:26:31 PM »
Do you know roughly when that Hami fix went through?  I was still playing my incarnate SD a lot right up until The Announcement.  Don't ever remember a cascade failure, which isn't to say I blocked it out of my memory.  ;)

Vee

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Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2015, 11:06:16 PM »
I wanna say with the last ish, but don't remember. and incarnate covered for a lot of sins. the shield i had the itf faceplant with was io'd but never got his alpha slot before shutdown.

rebel 1812

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Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2015, 12:08:31 AM »
It is pretty good offensively and defensively.  But you have to really slot it to hit high res/def numbers.

robo40

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Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2015, 01:43:13 PM »
But you have to really slot it to hit high res/def numbers.

Why do you really need to slot it more than other sets?  It softcaps Def as easily as any.  Hitting all 3 positionals is definitely superior to just S/L.  I've never done Stone, but my recollection is that SD went from zero to uber more easily than any of the other sets.  WP was smooth, but it was expensive to softcap it early (besides the lower peak performance).  Invuln isn't as versatile.  Fire is fun and offensive, but again expensive to move past glorified blapper.  Regen is a lesser version of WP.  Dark is expensive, though certainly solid once you overcome End issues. Electric can match high end, but is more expensive and less smooth of a ride.  It does have the advantage of pairing well with End hogs.

Ankhammon

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Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2015, 04:15:18 PM »
Why do you really need to slot it more than other sets?  It softcaps Def as easily as any.  Hitting all 3 positionals is definitely superior to just S/L.  I've never done Stone, but my recollection is that SD went from zero to uber more easily than any of the other sets.  WP was smooth, but it was expensive to softcap it early (besides the lower peak performance).  Invuln isn't as versatile.  Fire is fun and offensive, but again expensive to move past glorified blapper.  Regen is a lesser version of WP.  Dark is expensive, though certainly solid once you overcome End issues. Electric can match high end, but is more expensive and less smooth of a ride.  It does have the advantage of pairing well with End hogs.

The problem with your question is we don't really know how you want to use the defensive set (ie. AT, style).

For instance with WP it could be argued that it is a superior set with BS, Kat, TW because those sets shore up one of it's primary weaknesses (lethal, melee D) while WP adds recovery and regen which Shield is lacking.

Dark can be argued to be only one IO (ToE: +End) away from average in endurance usage which can be dealt with without the market. After that it's a great set for stun botting or crowd controlling from melee. 

Then, of course, there's the fact that shield limits your offensive choices.

Tell us more about what you want to play and we can give better opinions.
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Eoraptor

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Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2015, 05:33:19 PM »
Willpower was pretty much my go-to defensive capability. (partly because I often built around the dual-wield powers, which locked out Shield) It provided wide range of coverage while giving back a bit of regen that other powers didn't. Basically you could set up a willpower on most front-line characters and not worry about micro-managing it for the rest of the game.

I know a lot of people who got a lot of use out of Dark... but personally I always found the visuals on Dark to be overwhelming. (particularly knuckleheads who set the colors to black-on-black) Thus it was difficult for me to use it and effectively play, particularly on dark underground maps. That said, it was probably the most offensively-oriented of all the secondary power sets with all of its AOEs and drains, so you could build a scrap-tank or a combat healer easily with it.
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robo40

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Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2015, 09:08:19 PM »
Thanks, Ankhammon.  I was never a fan of relying on melee/lethal defense from the offensive sets, too inconsistent a performance.  I'm really just thinking out loud here, not looking to build a particular toon.  Other than the fact that some sets are incompatible with SD, which is very legitimate, as I dabble on Mids it seems that SD keeps rising to the top for every melee toon.  Again, this is based on the premise that we may very well start with limited IO access.  Dark can certainly compete defensively, but the offense of SD makes it a better choice.  For End issues I think I'd lean towards Electric over WP, mostly due to the eventual high end performance potential.

So, to distill a straight forward question:  "Given limited access to IO's on restart, for which offensive sets would you choose something other than SD (illegal choices obviously excepted)?"  Again, this is for an overall smooth run to 50, teaming and soloing, not avoiding any particular content/enemies and not farming.

Vee

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Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2015, 09:56:55 PM »
Thanks, Ankhammon.  I was never a fan of relying on melee/lethal defense from the offensive sets, too inconsistent a performance.  I'm really just thinking out loud here, not looking to build a particular toon.  Other than the fact that some sets are incompatible with SD, which is very legitimate, as I dabble on Mids it seems that SD keeps rising to the top for every melee toon.  Again, this is based on the premise that we may very well start with limited IO access.  Dark can certainly compete defensively, but the offense of SD makes it a better choice.  For End issues I think I'd lean towards Electric over WP, mostly due to the eventual high end performance potential.

So, to distill a straight forward question:  "Given limited access to IO's on restart, for which offensive sets would you choose something other than SD (illegal choices obviously excepted)?"  Again, this is for an overall smooth run to 50, teaming and soloing, not avoiding any particular content/enemies and not farming.

I always found willpower a much smoother run to 50 than shield, especially with SOs. shield really started to shine with a heavy IO build, whereas wp seemed a bit weaker at 50, especially against some content.

rebel 1812

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Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2015, 10:34:59 PM »
invun is very easy, uses very little end and very powerful.  You could make the argument that it is better or any of the sets.  Its really what you are looking for.

Ankhammon

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Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2015, 10:54:25 PM »
If you are only looking at SOs, then shield might be the way to go from my perspective.

However, if you are looking at just adding one single simple forgotten IO, it changes how WP operates and gives it a much better outlook. If you add a deflated Ego: Chance for recovery debuff into RotC your regen will become quite a bit better. This little proc will make all your enemies scream and charge you causing RotC to give you huge regen.

I also think Energy Aura is also a very nice choice for smooth ride. You get to choose how many you fight, you get heal and boost HP and you never have to worry about end. There's not really a bad choice in that entire set. Even the tier 9 crash is easy enough to get around with two end control powers in the set.

So my choices for smooth ride would be any of those. All are simple to use for the basics but each offers a little something more for those who want a particular tweak in one way or another.


But my dark horse would be fire aura. RotP just makes faceplanting so much fun. :)
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