Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?

[hurple]

I don't know that I agree with that.  My Kat/WP scrapper was insanely durable.

I had DB/WP, SJ/WP and MA/WP scrappers.  All three were AV-killers.  My MA/WP scrapper was the fastest 1-50 I ever played.  Willpower is an extremely strong defensive set.  Only needs a minor assist from the pool (I always grabbed self heal and sometimes the resistance in the fighting pool if I had the space) to be awesome.

[Microcosm]

Only problem is [electric] has no real durability against toxic damage.

Actually it did, though it was in the tier 9 so it was not constant. The thing it really didn't have was confuse and fear protection, so if you wanted absolutely everything covered you needed to take tactics which offered some fear protection and confuse resistance.

[P51mus]

Actually it did, though it was in the tier 9 so it was not constant. The thing it really didn't have was confuse and fear protection, so if you wanted absolutely everything covered you needed to take tactics which offered some fear protection and confuse resistance.

Yeah, I tend not to count tier 9s with end bar draining crashes when thinking of the overall durability of a set.

[robo40]

Yeah, I tend not to count tier 9s with end bar draining crashes when thinking of the overall durability of a set.

Ugh, agreed.  Another plus for SD.  It's hard to argue that WP is as good a choice as any for hitting 50 on the cheap.  My personal experience is that once there both SD and Electric will upgrade better, though with a slightly less smooth or cheap ride.  I put WP, Invuln, and Dark in a tier just below those two for high end performance.  Fire is unique, so I'm not including it.  Not sure where Stone goes, not to my taste so I never took it to 50.  The rest are all somewhere in a Tier 3.

[Vee]

I don't know that I agree with that.  My Kat/WP scrapper was insanely durable.

well yeah when you can keep 40 something melee defense on from divine avalanche that definitely helps. It was one of my favorite sets, but I always just felt like willpower peaked from 1-late 40s if for no other reason than the higher level enemies were less bothered by the - to-hit in rttc, and that the upgrade from SO to full IO sets felt less marked in wp than other sets. that's not to say you couldn't do things like +4/8 with it.

[Eoraptor]

I think we can all agree we just want our damned game back so we can all head for level 50 again, build discussion be damned!

[Pyromantic]

well yeah when you can keep 40 something melee defense on from divine avalanche that definitely helps. It was one of my favorite sets, but I always just felt like willpower peaked from 1-late 40s if for no other reason than the higher level enemies were less bothered by the - to-hit in rttc, and that the upgrade from SO to full IO sets felt less marked in wp than other sets. that's not to say you couldn't do things like +4/8 with it.

Yes, though Divine Avalanche upgrades WP in a way that it wouldn't with some other sets. 

My Kat/WP could handle +4/X8 on a lot of villain groups even before level shifts.  WP is a very well-rounded set that stacks with additional sources of mitigation extremely well.  I don't agree that it's clearly outperformed by other sets at all.

[Microcosm]

Yeah, I tend not to count tier 9s with end bar draining crashes when thinking of the overall durability of a set.

Yes, the crash is unfortunate and made many people skip it. I will say it is possbily the safest of the crashing tier9s though (against mobs of minions at least), because it actually ended with an EMP pbaoe that would apply a hold to everything around it, giving you some breathing room. I still didn't like to use it much though unless I was fighting Arachnoids.

To play devil's advocate against the kat/WP crowd, if you are relying on Divine Avalanche to shore up the defense, you are probably taking a significant hit to your dps, moreso the more often you used it in a chain.

[robo40]

Why does Kat fill a hole for WP, on the high end?  Once you softcap S/L, the additional Melee D has a minimal effect.  I never played Kat/WP, so I'm just curious what you've experienced, not doubting you.

[Pyromantic]

Why does Kat fill a hole for WP, on the high end?  Once you softcap S/L, the additional Melee D has a minimal effect.  I never played Kat/WP, so I'm just curious what you've experienced, not doubting you.

Divine Avalanche allows you to have significant defense against a large portion of attacks.  If your mitigation set does not rely on defense, but instead on other things, then you layer additional mitigation on top of it.  This is not simply about Willpower, but any set that uses other aspects of mitigation like resistance, heals, regen, health buffs and control.  Keep in mind that it is not about shoring up defense in the sense that those sets lack sufficient mitigation and have to rely on a power like Divine Avalanche. 

It also isn't like the discussion is limited to Katana.  Other sets have analogous powers (Defensive Sweep in Titan Weapons and Guarded Spin in Staff Fighting), defense set bonuses were widespread, and you can get similar effects from some APPs (notably the -tohit available in Tank/Brute Soul Mastery).  Whether or not the additional mitigation is necessary or worth it is another discussion, but it's worth noting that Divine Avalanche can easily be dropped from your attack chain when not needed, and introduced again when it is.

I'm definitely not knocking Shield.  It's an excellent set.  Soft-capping to all positions is very doable (even easy for Tanks.)  It provides some other mitigation on top of that, including a very useable tier 9 panic button.  And, of course, it offers significant damage potential.

I played Ice Armor, Shield, Willpower, Fiery Aura and Dark Armor characters to 50.  In a post-IO world I would definitely say Ice is the weakest of those, but all the others I found very competitive in their own way.

[robo40]

Ah, yes.  Without IO's Katana will definitely be a major performance boost.  It improves Lethal and Melee.  Once we can softcap S/L though, I don't see how it helps much.  Melee attacks in particular almost always include either a Smashing or Lethal component.  Capping the positionals on the other hand made a noticeable difference, though obviously there were other variables as well.  I'm certainly willing to give it a try, though.

[Pyromantic]

You're just assuming IOs are being used to softcap S/L.  Doing that and dropping Divine Avalanche from your attack chain on a Kat/WP is an option, but certainly not the only one.  My Kat/WP was built to be a hair under the health cap (ignoring the last percent or so in favour of other bonuses), had a ton of regen, and had enough recharge to keep my attack chain going.  For defense I relied on the native bonuses of WP, Weave, CJ, a steadfast protection +3% def and (only when needed) Divine Avalanche.  Along with Tough my S/L resist was solid, and could be capped with Strength of Will.  I was very happy with the result, and to me it was the build that played most to the strengths available. 

Point being: if you cap S/L defense then Divine Avalanche probably isn't very useful to you.  But, by using Divine Avalanche for defense when needed, you have a lot of room to do other things with IOs.

[Microcosm]

You're just assuming IOs are being used to softcap S/L.  Doing that and dropping Divine Avalanche from your attack chain on a Kat/WP is an option, but certainly not the only one.  My Kat/WP was built to be a hair under the health cap (ignoring the last percent or so in favour of other bonuses), had a ton of regen, and had enough recharge to keep my attack chain going.  For defense I relied on the native bonuses of WP, Weave, CJ, a steadfast protection +3% def and (only when needed) Divine Avalanche.  Along with Tough my S/L resist was solid, and could be capped with Strength of Will.  I was very happy with the result, and to me it was the build that played most to the strengths available. 

Point being: if you cap S/L defense then Divine Avalanche probably isn't very useful to you.  But, by using Divine Avalanche for defense when needed, you have a lot of room to do other things with IOs.

For me, divine avalanche was a fantastic leveling tool, and then I generally dropped it once I had the defense from IOs unless fighting enemies with heavy defense debuffs.

[robo40]

Thanks, good point on maxing out bonuses other than S/L.  I'll have to mess around with it in Mids.

Have you ever tried Kat with either WP or Electric on a Brute?  Was wondering if it's the Fury machine it seems to be.

[HEATSTROKE]

A bit rough on endurance while levelling ? try dark/stone tank which is truly awesome once you fix the end usage against everything except LR unless you have good buffing. 2 AoE stuns so you can one shot stun everything including bosses.

This man knows what he is talking about..

[HEATSTROKE]

 As far as armor sets on Tanks.. ( I didnt play scrappers )..  With the use of IO's which is how I play the game (so that pretty much rules out SO only discussions for me)...

 I can make every tank set as equally unkillable as any other and have done so..

 Ice Armor is very underrated.. My final Ice build was softcapped to S/L/E/N.. Perma Hoarfrost... and a Hibernate in the back pocket...

[Noyjitat]

For invulnerablitly:
I only recommend it for tanks unless your brute or scrapper has a very nice damage set with some knockdowns and controls. It feels particularly useless on a scrapper but not
so much on a brute. 75% cap resist to attacks that do 1000 damage is still 250 damage and it adds up quickly on +3 and +4 enemies and the defense the set comes with it and it's dullpain just isn't as nice on a scrapper.

For SR:
I suggest taking aid self, I use to highly recommend this set but as time went on and nerfs and nerfs to defense and buffs to enemy accuracy and to hit. Even the old softcap of 45% just wasn't enough anymore with going rogue and beyond. It should still be enough for original paragon city and Rogue Isles content however (keyword being original)
Might run into some problems on +3 and +4 however.

If ninjitsu had ever been ported over from stalkers with tank/brute and scrapper replacements for some of it's powers I think it would of replaced super reflexes

I'm going to suggest Electricity armor as the all around good set. With it's resistance, the teleport knockdown, the self heal, debuffs and controls. Willpower is pretty nice when surrounded by enemies to make your regen increase on a tank but I never tried it on a scrapper or brute.

Ice was a late bloomer and I don't recall if scrapper or brutes get it as armor but I loved it on my tank. I played Ice/Ice but im sure you could find a better pair.

Dark Armor and Fire have moments but require sets or team buffs to really shine. Get a forcefielder to join you or an empath with fortitude.
I will likely be playing a warmace / fire armor or SR / fire armor as my first character.

My main and badger was MA/SR but as new content came out the only time I ever felt powerful again was with incarnates. MA needed more adjustments and was really showing it's age as time went on and SR's defense was just too easy for newer npcs to ignore, especially in praetoria.

[P51mus]

I'm going to suggest Electricity armor as the all around good set. With it's resistance, the teleport knockdown, the self heal, debuffs and controls.

I like Elec Armor, but it definitely doesn't have a teleport knockdown.  That's part of electric melee. 

Good all around resistances, a self heal, excellent end management and the ability to sap enemy end bars is pretty nice though.  And 20% bonus recharge.

[HEATSTROKE]

I looked over my tanks and brutes ( I dont do Scrappers )

Every Set had its advantages...



But in terms of overall surviability.. My WP was pretty much unkillable.

Softcapped to S/L/E/N, 35% to Fire, Cold, Psi

Resists 70% S/L 40% Psi. 11.5 everything else...

The key however... The Regen..

With only one target in range with Rise of the Challenge His regen is 95 HP per second...
With 4 targets in range that jumps to 115HP per second...
With 8 Targets (what I call a normal sized mob) 141 HP per second...

So basically its very hard to damage him enough over time to take his HP down..

I have an Invul tank that Tanked Mother Mayhem even with minimal Psi resists because of Perma Dull Pain.. a massive heal and HP boost every 100 seconds will keep you alive..

Any tank can survive even adverse circumstances if built well..

 

[Inc42]

Dont see many people talking about Stone Armor so wanted to throw in a bit about it. I generally would play brutes if I was melee, and my power combos were all over the place, but for tanks Stone Armor was my favorite. Once I finally got my groove I never made another tank. I also played it only on large teams, and only when a tank is what was needed, he was designed to pull aggro and survive without aid.

Disadvantages: Multiple powers would slow you down in both speed and recharge. The only travel power you could use without dropping all toggles was teleport, and you would instantly fall if you did it through the air.

Advantages: Granite armor would almost cap resistance with just IOs of anything but psionics AND give you a good amount of defense. Recharge debuffs can be overcome with sets+hasten, and with my style of running Granite+Tough+Weave+Maneuvers then sit there doing nothing but taunt or aoe attacks slotted for taunt I was untouchable, and so was the team. I didnt do damage, that was not my goal. I was there to tank, and tank I did.

Also worth mentioning, Granite Armor increases your character model to a size larger than you normally can be, INCLUDING weapons. My character was as tiny as possible with the mace attack set, and it was always funny to turn into the giant form and look down on people around me, pulling out a giant hammer. I was going to remake him with titan weapons instead, but never got around to it.