Author Topic: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?  (Read 21869 times)

robo40

  • Minion
  • **
  • Posts: 46
Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« on: February 06, 2015, 03:54:56 PM »
While whittling the time until reinstatement, I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one working in Mids dusting off old builds and hypothesizing.  The main wildcard in toon design is whether we will be starting with an empty marketplace, or if choice IO's will somehow be made available.  In either case, however, it's hard for me to come up with a better choice than Shield for melee toons.  *With the important caveat that I want a versatile toon who can experience all content smoothly, either solo or on a team*.  Does anyone have any good arguments for other choices, either in theory or from personal experience?  Thanks!

robo40

  • Minion
  • **
  • Posts: 46
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2015, 03:59:53 PM »
Pros of SD:

Easy to hit defense cap vs virtually any attack in the game
Excellent debuff res
+HP
+Dam
a solid AOE attack

Power Gamer

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,865
  • Reaching troubled youth...one Hellion at a time!
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2015, 06:16:48 PM »
Sheild was my fav melee choice.
It takes a village to raise a child. And it takes a villain to explain the value of lunch money.

-Random CoHer: "Why does the sky turn green during Rikti invasions?"
-Me:"Rikti Monkey farts"
-Random CoHer: "I'm going to you for all my questions from now on!"

P51mus

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 205
  • aka Pitho
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2015, 08:43:14 PM »
Well, it'll probably take some time for the market to recover, so you might have trouble IOing yourself to godliness with that set.  I think some other sets like Willpower have better performance on SOs.  And might work better with a wider variety of team buffs.

Also, there's some attack sets that just aren't allowed to be used with shield.  Like Titan weapons and  Spines.

Vee

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,376
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2015, 09:40:35 PM »
Shield was my favorite though it was a bit rough on endurance while leveling. The fix of the ddr in that one hami kind of hit it hard though. Really though I can't imagine using the same thing on every melee toon, I need some variety even if some end up less powerful.

hurple

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 595
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2015, 09:44:32 PM »
Shield was my favorite though it was a bit rough on endurance while leveling. The fix of the ddr in that one hami kind of hit it hard though. Really though I can't imagine using the same thing on every melee toon, I need some variety even if some end up less powerful.

Amen to that!


Ankhammon

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2015, 07:03:53 AM »
I have to go with Willpower as a good alternative.


And if you are looking for a smooth ride to 50, you might want to look at a crazy combo I tried once that was actually pretty good. Shield/Ice tank.

It had very nice aoe and loads of control to go with the goodness in shield. only a touch low on single target damage but you can make up some of the trouble with lightning fast attacks.

Bonus: it's very easy to make him look like Iceman but with an ice shield. :)


Honestly, you can make a good argument for fire/ice tanking too. I know brutes and scrappers get all the glory but /ice melee is a very good complementary power on any tank and it does more damage than many thing (cuz of dots and whatnot).
Cogito, Ergo... eh?

Minotaur

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 612
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2015, 10:59:49 AM »
Shield was my favorite though it was a bit rough on endurance while leveling. The fix of the ddr in that one hami kind of hit it hard though. Really though I can't imagine using the same thing on every melee toon, I need some variety even if some end up less powerful.

A bit rough on endurance while levelling ? try dark/stone tank which is truly awesome once you fix the end usage against everything except LR unless you have good buffing. 2 AoE stuns so you can one shot stun everything including bosses.

robo40

  • Minion
  • **
  • Posts: 46
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2015, 01:35:29 PM »
Good stuff.  I was using Hami's for ddr right up to the end.  Had they stopped working and I never noticed?  I would think losing max ddr would have been hard to overlook, but who knows?

Agree that WP would also give a smooth ride to 50 without all the IO toys.  I think SD Tanks could still softcap fairly easily, but Brutes and Scrappers could both argue for WP if we're on a budget.  The pro for SD would be higher top end in the long run, once the bling comes back.  SS/WP Brute was probably the easiest path to 50 I ever had on a toon, but that was without a budget.  However, I rarely played him after 50, something else always had more appeal.  He couldn't compare to my Dark/SD scrapper.

Not sure that Stone will do so well until we get full IO access back, or give a smooth ride.  Agree that /Ice was an overlooked secondary that made for some nice combos.  But what got me started on this was that SD is so good for all melee types (when permitted).  Definitely wouldn't want to play it on all my toons, but for a (re)starter it seemed like such a clear choice that I was curious what counterpoints I may have overlooked.

Vee

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,376
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2015, 08:40:51 PM »
A bit rough on endurance while levelling ? try dark/stone tank which is truly awesome once you fix the end usage against everything except LR unless you have good buffing. 2 AoE stuns so you can one shot stun everything including bosses.
Well there's a bit rough and then there's dark armor.

And yeah they fixed the hami which was giving ddr (membrane i think). it wasn't supposed to in the first place but it had been for so long it felt like a nerf. i felt it more on my widow than shield but shield could get cascading defense failure on things like trying to solo rooms on the rescue sybils part of itf.

robo40

  • Minion
  • **
  • Posts: 46
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2015, 10:26:31 PM »
Do you know roughly when that Hami fix went through?  I was still playing my incarnate SD a lot right up until The Announcement.  Don't ever remember a cascade failure, which isn't to say I blocked it out of my memory.  ;)

Vee

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,376
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2015, 11:06:16 PM »
I wanna say with the last ish, but don't remember. and incarnate covered for a lot of sins. the shield i had the itf faceplant with was io'd but never got his alpha slot before shutdown.

rebel 1812

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 131
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2015, 12:08:31 AM »
It is pretty good offensively and defensively.  But you have to really slot it to hit high res/def numbers.

robo40

  • Minion
  • **
  • Posts: 46
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2015, 01:43:13 PM »
But you have to really slot it to hit high res/def numbers.

Why do you really need to slot it more than other sets?  It softcaps Def as easily as any.  Hitting all 3 positionals is definitely superior to just S/L.  I've never done Stone, but my recollection is that SD went from zero to uber more easily than any of the other sets.  WP was smooth, but it was expensive to softcap it early (besides the lower peak performance).  Invuln isn't as versatile.  Fire is fun and offensive, but again expensive to move past glorified blapper.  Regen is a lesser version of WP.  Dark is expensive, though certainly solid once you overcome End issues. Electric can match high end, but is more expensive and less smooth of a ride.  It does have the advantage of pairing well with End hogs.

Ankhammon

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2015, 04:15:18 PM »
Why do you really need to slot it more than other sets?  It softcaps Def as easily as any.  Hitting all 3 positionals is definitely superior to just S/L.  I've never done Stone, but my recollection is that SD went from zero to uber more easily than any of the other sets.  WP was smooth, but it was expensive to softcap it early (besides the lower peak performance).  Invuln isn't as versatile.  Fire is fun and offensive, but again expensive to move past glorified blapper.  Regen is a lesser version of WP.  Dark is expensive, though certainly solid once you overcome End issues. Electric can match high end, but is more expensive and less smooth of a ride.  It does have the advantage of pairing well with End hogs.

The problem with your question is we don't really know how you want to use the defensive set (ie. AT, style).

For instance with WP it could be argued that it is a superior set with BS, Kat, TW because those sets shore up one of it's primary weaknesses (lethal, melee D) while WP adds recovery and regen which Shield is lacking.

Dark can be argued to be only one IO (ToE: +End) away from average in endurance usage which can be dealt with without the market. After that it's a great set for stun botting or crowd controlling from melee. 

Then, of course, there's the fact that shield limits your offensive choices.

Tell us more about what you want to play and we can give better opinions.
Cogito, Ergo... eh?

Eoraptor

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 614
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2015, 05:33:19 PM »
Willpower was pretty much my go-to defensive capability. (partly because I often built around the dual-wield powers, which locked out Shield) It provided wide range of coverage while giving back a bit of regen that other powers didn't. Basically you could set up a willpower on most front-line characters and not worry about micro-managing it for the rest of the game.

I know a lot of people who got a lot of use out of Dark... but personally I always found the visuals on Dark to be overwhelming. (particularly knuckleheads who set the colors to black-on-black) Thus it was difficult for me to use it and effectively play, particularly on dark underground maps. That said, it was probably the most offensively-oriented of all the secondary power sets with all of its AOEs and drains, so you could build a scrap-tank or a combat healer easily with it.
"Some people can read War and Peace and come away thinking it's a simple adventure story, while others can read the back of a chewing gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe!"
-Lex Luthor

robo40

  • Minion
  • **
  • Posts: 46
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2015, 09:08:19 PM »
Thanks, Ankhammon.  I was never a fan of relying on melee/lethal defense from the offensive sets, too inconsistent a performance.  I'm really just thinking out loud here, not looking to build a particular toon.  Other than the fact that some sets are incompatible with SD, which is very legitimate, as I dabble on Mids it seems that SD keeps rising to the top for every melee toon.  Again, this is based on the premise that we may very well start with limited IO access.  Dark can certainly compete defensively, but the offense of SD makes it a better choice.  For End issues I think I'd lean towards Electric over WP, mostly due to the eventual high end performance potential.

So, to distill a straight forward question:  "Given limited access to IO's on restart, for which offensive sets would you choose something other than SD (illegal choices obviously excepted)?"  Again, this is for an overall smooth run to 50, teaming and soloing, not avoiding any particular content/enemies and not farming.

Vee

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,376
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2015, 09:56:55 PM »
Thanks, Ankhammon.  I was never a fan of relying on melee/lethal defense from the offensive sets, too inconsistent a performance.  I'm really just thinking out loud here, not looking to build a particular toon.  Other than the fact that some sets are incompatible with SD, which is very legitimate, as I dabble on Mids it seems that SD keeps rising to the top for every melee toon.  Again, this is based on the premise that we may very well start with limited IO access.  Dark can certainly compete defensively, but the offense of SD makes it a better choice.  For End issues I think I'd lean towards Electric over WP, mostly due to the eventual high end performance potential.

So, to distill a straight forward question:  "Given limited access to IO's on restart, for which offensive sets would you choose something other than SD (illegal choices obviously excepted)?"  Again, this is for an overall smooth run to 50, teaming and soloing, not avoiding any particular content/enemies and not farming.

I always found willpower a much smoother run to 50 than shield, especially with SOs. shield really started to shine with a heavy IO build, whereas wp seemed a bit weaker at 50, especially against some content.

rebel 1812

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 131
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2015, 10:34:59 PM »
invun is very easy, uses very little end and very powerful.  You could make the argument that it is better or any of the sets.  Its really what you are looking for.

Ankhammon

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2015, 10:54:25 PM »
If you are only looking at SOs, then shield might be the way to go from my perspective.

However, if you are looking at just adding one single simple forgotten IO, it changes how WP operates and gives it a much better outlook. If you add a deflated Ego: Chance for recovery debuff into RotC your regen will become quite a bit better. This little proc will make all your enemies scream and charge you causing RotC to give you huge regen.

I also think Energy Aura is also a very nice choice for smooth ride. You get to choose how many you fight, you get heal and boost HP and you never have to worry about end. There's not really a bad choice in that entire set. Even the tier 9 crash is easy enough to get around with two end control powers in the set.

So my choices for smooth ride would be any of those. All are simple to use for the basics but each offers a little something more for those who want a particular tweak in one way or another.


But my dark horse would be fire aura. RotP just makes faceplanting so much fun. :)
Cogito, Ergo... eh?

Microcosm

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 89
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2015, 01:16:17 AM »
Since no stalkers can use shields, I'm kind of out of this already  :P The main benefit of shield to me is the extra AoE, and the main detriment is the endurance issues. I would probably not pair a primary that already has plenty of AoE init with shield for regular play (exclude farming) and instead opt for something like Electric armor. There are also sets that need every ounce of recharge (dual blades, which I know is already locked out), for which electric or energy are probably better. To me, the only set that works perfectly with it is dm, which is why we saw sooo many of those. Even then though, toward the end of the game DM/SD was not the top 1 or 2 highest damaging combos from the rikti pylon results. You could argue about the survivability of the combos that beat it, but it just depends on what you're aiming for.

Vee

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,376
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2015, 02:20:56 AM »
invun is very easy, uses very little end and very powerful.  You could make the argument that it is better or any of the sets.  Its really what you are looking for.
I assume you're talking tank. invuln is pretty meh on broots.

cohRock

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 82
    • Rich's Tepid Home Page
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2015, 01:16:04 PM »
While whittling the time until reinstatement, I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one working in Mids dusting off old builds and hypothesizing.  The main wildcard in toon design is whether we will be starting with an empty marketplace, or if choice IO's will somehow be made available.  In either case, however, it's hard for me to come up with a better choice than Shield for melee toons.  *With the important caveat that I want a versatile toon who can experience all content smoothly, either solo or on a team*.  Does anyone have any good arguments for other choices, either in theory or from personal experience?  Thanks!
Especially for a tank or brute, consider Super Reflexes / Dark Melee.  IMO, SR's power is amplified significantly when there is a larger pool of health to begin with.  DM gives you a self-heal attack, which helps cover the absence of a heal in SR.

http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/download.php?uc=1494&c=719&a=1438&f=HEX&dc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
-- Rich

rebel 1812

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 131
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2015, 01:35:41 PM »
Since no stalkers can use shields, I'm kind of out of this already  :P The main benefit of shield to me is the extra AoE, and the main detriment is the endurance issues. I would probably not pair a primary that already has plenty of AoE init with shield for regular play (exclude farming) and instead opt for something like Electric armor. There are also sets that need every ounce of recharge (dual blades, which I know is already locked out), for which electric or energy are probably better. To me, the only set that works perfectly with it is dm, which is why we saw sooo many of those. Even then though, toward the end of the game DM/SD was not the top 1 or 2 highest damaging combos from the rikti pylon results. You could argue about the survivability of the combos that beat it, but it just depends on what you're aiming for.

what were the highest damaging combos according to your tests.

robo40

  • Minion
  • **
  • Posts: 46
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2015, 03:02:57 PM »
lol, completely overlooked Stalkers as melee.  Agree that DM is a top overall choice for a balanced toon with almost any secondary, the heal (on a solid attack) is frequently overlooked as a game changer.  But I'd say SD is the first choice for SS/BS/BA/WM/EM/Elec and even Fire, though Fire and SS both pair well with Fiery Aura at the high end.

Invuln has the Psi hole and no offense.  Would make for a smooth ride, but less high end potential later.  It certainly has it's memorable "uber" moments, though.

Energy Aura is a smooth ride, and the Debuff Res is very nice.  But capping S/L is so easy once we start getting some IO's, I think Electric is a better choice if you want rech and end redux.  Though again, high end those are eventually pretty easy to get, the difference is small for rech.  Unless you want to set a pylon record, which is of course an entirely different story.  The End redux can make a difference with your Incarnate choice though, so certainly that can support a good argument for Electric.  Capped Energy Res for end game is obviously great as well.

Eoraptor

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 614
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2015, 04:02:11 PM »
I never even thought of trying to put a shield on a stalker, which is probably why I didn't know it was locked out *chuckles* shows that you could play the game for years and still not try all the permutations...
"Some people can read War and Peace and come away thinking it's a simple adventure story, while others can read the back of a chewing gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe!"
-Lex Luthor

Canine

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 79
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2015, 10:22:29 PM »
The main argument for any defensive set other than Shield?

Shield didn't fit the character concept.

That's it to me.

robo40

  • Minion
  • **
  • Posts: 46
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2015, 01:34:53 AM »
I assure you, I have no shortage of concepts for restart. ;)

RGladden

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 193
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2015, 03:21:32 AM »
I cast my vote for Willpower.  It's about the only defensive set that could do what I wanted it to do with most of the attack sets;  maintain a steady, unending attack stream with almost no cool down time.

I tinkered around a bit with WP and various brute builds, but was never completely satisfied with any of them.  In my opinion, for what it's worth, WP was at its best as a tank build.  I had two WP builds that I took to level 50, one paired with Super Strength, and the other with Dark Melee.  While the Super strength build was a blast to play once you got Foot Stomp and Rage, I actually had fewer problems with the Dark Melee build, with its debuffs, largely unresistable damage attacks, and invention enhancement sets that gave defense bonuses.  By the time I reached levels 35-40 with that build it was well nigh unkillable.


Microcosm

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 89
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2015, 04:12:39 AM »
what were the highest damaging combos according to your tests.

If you leave out nightwidow as a non-standard melee, there was a Stj/SR stalker and Stj/Ice stalker that did disgusting things in the i24 beta to a pylon. Earlier there was a DB/Elec on the scrapper side as a long time frontrunner and then maybe a KM/something. Maybe someone with an archive of the old forum would know?

Waffles

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 387
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2015, 05:11:06 PM »
To answer the question... for a scrapper, my nominations.

 Katana/will. - With parry, you will never die.

For a brute...

SS/Fire - Easily one of the fastest killers in the game, very close to plant/fire permadoms. What you lack in defensive strength, you make up for in insane, raw attack power. A double raged burn will kill equal level minions with the initial hit, and the burn will kill lieutenants. Fiery embraced knockout blow will take bosses to half health. Build primarily for recharge, if defense is needed, pop a luck inspiration.

Titan/Elec: The two sets have fantastic synergy. Once you unlock the drain ability, you can sap entire mobs to bottomed out endurance with one press of a button, plus, your damage aura will keep their endurance bottomed out. this makes the 'ramp up' time for Titan weapon's powers a non-issue, and the killing power this set has, especially with a force feedback proc on whirling blow, is very high tier, plus, you have infinite endurance. Bonus: You're immune to sappers.

Claws/Dark: Brutes scale better with this combination, it's easy to slot recharge for, and focus on defensives with, plus, the Cardiac alpha will make the notorious Dark Regen energy cost nothing to you. You'll have a full health-bar once every fifteen seconds.

Stalker

Ice Armor and Energy Aura: Both have multiple layers of defense, and can achieve the softcaps with relative ease. Ice seems like it would be more powerful once fully slotted, but Energy Aura will level easier.

« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 05:26:32 PM by Waffles »

Eoraptor

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 614
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2015, 05:39:31 PM »
I always found dual-swords/will to be a fabulous build as well, because you could stack up combos like nobodies business and debuff and lawn-mower your way through fields of enemies without exhausting your energy levels too badly.
"Some people can read War and Peace and come away thinking it's a simple adventure story, while others can read the back of a chewing gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe!"
-Lex Luthor

P51mus

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 205
  • aka Pitho
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2015, 06:54:23 PM »
Fire armor is really nice for alpha striking things into oblivion.  When Firey Embrace got changed to add extra fire damage to non fire attacks it became REALLY nice for killing things.  A fairly fast cycling self heal combined with resistance so you have the time to use it is nice as well.

I had a Metal Spikes (Spines)/Fire armor  Metal themed scrapper that made really good use of it.

Angel Phoenix77

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,136
  • I am Phoenix !!
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2015, 07:54:31 PM »
I always found dual-swords/will to be a fabulous build as well, because you could stack up combos like nobodies business and debuff and lawn-mower your way through fields of enemies without exhausting your energy levels too badly.
most of my "new characters" had /will power, the reason for this is I was depressed when they changed the 9th power of regen and the characters I got to 50 before the change, I never touched again. I tried /dark, I found this was far to endurance heavy power set. I tried invlun, I did not have any fun so I rerolled. Then I heard of /willpower and tried it. I loved it then I started looking for ways to make /willpower stronger and found the fighting pools and that helped fill the holes in /will power.
I tried a ma/will power and got all of the way to 30, I did not have fun mostly because I expected to see the shield in fights.
So I would say while willpower has holes it in, there are ways to fill the. So I would say will power on any melee at will power would be the power I would choose no question asked :D
One day the Phoenix will rise again.

Pyromantic

  • New Efforts # 16,000!
  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 155
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #34 on: February 10, 2015, 10:48:23 PM »
I will echo what others have said in that WP is a solid overall set.  If you're worried about the time required for IO resources to become available, it may well be the best set. 

Though, really, I think it comes down to personal preference in a lot of ways.  Most melee characters could be built with more than enough mitigation to be successful in play.

robo40

  • Minion
  • **
  • Posts: 46
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #35 on: February 10, 2015, 11:14:13 PM »
Thanks, good stuff here.  I agree that part of the fun of this game is that you can play anything you want thru any content. That said, I enjoy the challenge of maxing out my chars.  Besides, it's not like I can be running content right now.  ;)  For those recommending WP, have you gone incarnate with SD or Electric?  I've found those to be noticeably higher performance in the end game, it's interesting to hear otherwise.  WP is certainly smooth on the way up though, esp on a budget.

Waffles - thanks for the breakdown.  You named some of the set combos I've been most interested in, but paired them with different AT's.  Electric for instance, not looking to drain mobs and stop them from raising Fury.  What's your thought on making TW/Elec Brute rather than Scrapper or Tanker, my two preferences?  SS/Fire to a lesser extent, Fiery Aura is not ideal for Fury.  That hp of Tankers makes it a lot more survivable, and is about as offensive as Tanks can get.  For kill first, Scrappers seems a better choice.  Katana/WP, otoh, is an ideal Brute combo.  Fury out the wazoo, no redraws, Brute hp makes regen more effective.  Thanks for sharing.

Pyromantic

  • New Efforts # 16,000!
  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 155
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #36 on: February 11, 2015, 03:03:15 AM »
One of my planned builds if the game comes back is an Elec/Stone/Soul Tank.  Solid resists, a strong heal, enough defense (from pool powers and IOs) and -tohit to dramatically reduce hit rates, and /stone's excellent control should make for an extremely sturdy character.  Add in decent AoE and a top-tier ST chain for damage, and I expect it to do very well.

I think the combination of building for defense along with Soul Mastery makes primarily-resistance sets a very good option for Tanks.

Vee

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,376
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #37 on: February 11, 2015, 04:46:11 AM »
Thanks, good stuff here.  I agree that part of the fun of this game is that you can play anything you want thru any content. That said, I enjoy the challenge of maxing out my chars.  Besides, it's not like I can be running content right now.  ;)  For those recommending WP, have you gone incarnate with SD or Electric?  I've found those to be noticeably higher performance in the end game, it's interesting to hear otherwise.  WP is certainly smooth on the way up though, esp on a budget.
I think those of us saying wp were doing so with the idea of returning to the game and only having SOs available. It's clearly outperformed in end game by several other sets. On the other hand, you can make an IO'd wp at 50 for much cheaper than most other sets, so it'd be an overall great idea for an early-return toon.

P51mus

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 205
  • aka Pitho
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #38 on: February 11, 2015, 07:55:10 AM »
Oh, I've also used Electric armor on both a brute and a tank.  It's a really solid set now, ever since it gained its own heal (which also reduces the end cost of everything you use).  It also has a recharge reduction passive, a damage aura and Power sink in case you still don't have enough end somehow.

Only problem is it has no real durability against toxic damage.

On Tank I paired it up with Titan Weapons, for an end heavy powerset that makes good use of the extra recharge.


I'm probably making a Kinetic Melee/ Willpower Scrapper as my first melee on return though.

Pyromantic

  • New Efforts # 16,000!
  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 155
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #39 on: February 11, 2015, 01:09:14 PM »
It's clearly outperformed in end game by several other sets.

I don't know that I agree with that.  My Kat/WP scrapper was insanely durable.

hurple

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 595
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #40 on: February 11, 2015, 02:25:56 PM »
I don't know that I agree with that.  My Kat/WP scrapper was insanely durable.

I had DB/WP, SJ/WP and MA/WP scrappers.  All three were AV-killers.  My MA/WP scrapper was the fastest 1-50 I ever played.  Willpower is an extremely strong defensive set.  Only needs a minor assist from the pool (I always grabbed self heal and sometimes the resistance in the fighting pool if I had the space) to be awesome.

Microcosm

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 89
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #41 on: February 11, 2015, 02:34:47 PM »

Only problem is [electric] has no real durability against toxic damage.


Actually it did, though it was in the tier 9 so it was not constant. The thing it really didn't have was confuse and fear protection, so if you wanted absolutely everything covered you needed to take tactics which offered some fear protection and confuse resistance.

P51mus

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 205
  • aka Pitho
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #42 on: February 11, 2015, 06:57:37 PM »
Actually it did, though it was in the tier 9 so it was not constant. The thing it really didn't have was confuse and fear protection, so if you wanted absolutely everything covered you needed to take tactics which offered some fear protection and confuse resistance.

Yeah, I tend not to count tier 9s with end bar draining crashes when thinking of the overall durability of a set.

robo40

  • Minion
  • **
  • Posts: 46
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2015, 07:15:46 PM »
Yeah, I tend not to count tier 9s with end bar draining crashes when thinking of the overall durability of a set.

Ugh, agreed.  Another plus for SD.  It's hard to argue that WP is as good a choice as any for hitting 50 on the cheap.  My personal experience is that once there both SD and Electric will upgrade better, though with a slightly less smooth or cheap ride.  I put WP, Invuln, and Dark in a tier just below those two for high end performance.  Fire is unique, so I'm not including it.  Not sure where Stone goes, not to my taste so I never took it to 50.  The rest are all somewhere in a Tier 3.

Vee

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,376
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #44 on: February 11, 2015, 10:23:10 PM »
I don't know that I agree with that.  My Kat/WP scrapper was insanely durable.

well yeah when you can keep 40 something melee defense on from divine avalanche that definitely helps. It was one of my favorite sets, but I always just felt like willpower peaked from 1-late 40s if for no other reason than the higher level enemies were less bothered by the - to-hit in rttc, and that the upgrade from SO to full IO sets felt less marked in wp than other sets. that's not to say you couldn't do things like +4/8 with it.

Eoraptor

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 614
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #45 on: February 11, 2015, 11:29:06 PM »
I think we can all agree we just want our damned game back so we can all head for level 50 again, build discussion be damned!
"Some people can read War and Peace and come away thinking it's a simple adventure story, while others can read the back of a chewing gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe!"
-Lex Luthor

Pyromantic

  • New Efforts # 16,000!
  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 155
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #46 on: February 12, 2015, 01:51:36 AM »
well yeah when you can keep 40 something melee defense on from divine avalanche that definitely helps. It was one of my favorite sets, but I always just felt like willpower peaked from 1-late 40s if for no other reason than the higher level enemies were less bothered by the - to-hit in rttc, and that the upgrade from SO to full IO sets felt less marked in wp than other sets. that's not to say you couldn't do things like +4/8 with it.
Yes, though Divine Avalanche upgrades WP in a way that it wouldn't with some other sets. 

My Kat/WP could handle +4/X8 on a lot of villain groups even before level shifts.  WP is a very well-rounded set that stacks with additional sources of mitigation extremely well.  I don't agree that it's clearly outperformed by other sets at all.

Microcosm

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 89
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #47 on: February 12, 2015, 04:22:45 AM »
Yeah, I tend not to count tier 9s with end bar draining crashes when thinking of the overall durability of a set.

Yes, the crash is unfortunate and made many people skip it. I will say it is possbily the safest of the crashing tier9s though (against mobs of minions at least), because it actually ended with an EMP pbaoe that would apply a hold to everything around it, giving you some breathing room. I still didn't like to use it much though unless I was fighting Arachnoids.

To play devil's advocate against the kat/WP crowd, if you are relying on Divine Avalanche to shore up the defense, you are probably taking a significant hit to your dps, moreso the more often you used it in a chain.

robo40

  • Minion
  • **
  • Posts: 46
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #48 on: February 12, 2015, 01:18:17 PM »
Why does Kat fill a hole for WP, on the high end?  Once you softcap S/L, the additional Melee D has a minimal effect.  I never played Kat/WP, so I'm just curious what you've experienced, not doubting you.

Pyromantic

  • New Efforts # 16,000!
  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 155
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #49 on: February 12, 2015, 03:26:13 PM »
Why does Kat fill a hole for WP, on the high end?  Once you softcap S/L, the additional Melee D has a minimal effect.  I never played Kat/WP, so I'm just curious what you've experienced, not doubting you.

Divine Avalanche allows you to have significant defense against a large portion of attacks.  If your mitigation set does not rely on defense, but instead on other things, then you layer additional mitigation on top of it.  This is not simply about Willpower, but any set that uses other aspects of mitigation like resistance, heals, regen, health buffs and control.  Keep in mind that it is not about shoring up defense in the sense that those sets lack sufficient mitigation and have to rely on a power like Divine Avalanche. 

It also isn't like the discussion is limited to Katana.  Other sets have analogous powers (Defensive Sweep in Titan Weapons and Guarded Spin in Staff Fighting), defense set bonuses were widespread, and you can get similar effects from some APPs (notably the -tohit available in Tank/Brute Soul Mastery).  Whether or not the additional mitigation is necessary or worth it is another discussion, but it's worth noting that Divine Avalanche can easily be dropped from your attack chain when not needed, and introduced again when it is.

I'm definitely not knocking Shield.  It's an excellent set.  Soft-capping to all positions is very doable (even easy for Tanks.)  It provides some other mitigation on top of that, including a very useable tier 9 panic button.  And, of course, it offers significant damage potential.

I played Ice Armor, Shield, Willpower, Fiery Aura and Dark Armor characters to 50.  In a post-IO world I would definitely say Ice is the weakest of those, but all the others I found very competitive in their own way.

robo40

  • Minion
  • **
  • Posts: 46
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #50 on: February 12, 2015, 07:08:09 PM »
Ah, yes.  Without IO's Katana will definitely be a major performance boost.  It improves Lethal and Melee.  Once we can softcap S/L though, I don't see how it helps much.  Melee attacks in particular almost always include either a Smashing or Lethal component.  Capping the positionals on the other hand made a noticeable difference, though obviously there were other variables as well.  I'm certainly willing to give it a try, though.

Pyromantic

  • New Efforts # 16,000!
  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 155
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #51 on: February 12, 2015, 07:31:27 PM »
You're just assuming IOs are being used to softcap S/L.  Doing that and dropping Divine Avalanche from your attack chain on a Kat/WP is an option, but certainly not the only one.  My Kat/WP was built to be a hair under the health cap (ignoring the last percent or so in favour of other bonuses), had a ton of regen, and had enough recharge to keep my attack chain going.  For defense I relied on the native bonuses of WP, Weave, CJ, a steadfast protection +3% def and (only when needed) Divine Avalanche.  Along with Tough my S/L resist was solid, and could be capped with Strength of Will.  I was very happy with the result, and to me it was the build that played most to the strengths available. 

Point being: if you cap S/L defense then Divine Avalanche probably isn't very useful to you.  But, by using Divine Avalanche for defense when needed, you have a lot of room to do other things with IOs.

Microcosm

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 89
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #52 on: February 12, 2015, 11:49:54 PM »
You're just assuming IOs are being used to softcap S/L.  Doing that and dropping Divine Avalanche from your attack chain on a Kat/WP is an option, but certainly not the only one.  My Kat/WP was built to be a hair under the health cap (ignoring the last percent or so in favour of other bonuses), had a ton of regen, and had enough recharge to keep my attack chain going.  For defense I relied on the native bonuses of WP, Weave, CJ, a steadfast protection +3% def and (only when needed) Divine Avalanche.  Along with Tough my S/L resist was solid, and could be capped with Strength of Will.  I was very happy with the result, and to me it was the build that played most to the strengths available. 

Point being: if you cap S/L defense then Divine Avalanche probably isn't very useful to you.  But, by using Divine Avalanche for defense when needed, you have a lot of room to do other things with IOs.

For me, divine avalanche was a fantastic leveling tool, and then I generally dropped it once I had the defense from IOs unless fighting enemies with heavy defense debuffs.

robo40

  • Minion
  • **
  • Posts: 46
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #53 on: February 13, 2015, 12:42:16 PM »
Thanks, good point on maxing out bonuses other than S/L.  I'll have to mess around with it in Mids.

Have you ever tried Kat with either WP or Electric on a Brute?  Was wondering if it's the Fury machine it seems to be.

HEATSTROKE

  • Lovin' bein' an
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 992
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #54 on: February 17, 2015, 04:09:51 AM »
A bit rough on endurance while levelling ? try dark/stone tank which is truly awesome once you fix the end usage against everything except LR unless you have good buffing. 2 AoE stuns so you can one shot stun everything including bosses.

This man knows what he is talking about..


HEATSTROKE

  • Lovin' bein' an
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 992
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #55 on: February 17, 2015, 04:19:01 AM »
 As far as armor sets on Tanks.. ( I didnt play scrappers )..  With the use of IO's which is how I play the game (so that pretty much rules out SO only discussions for me)...

 I can make every tank set as equally unkillable as any other and have done so..

 Ice Armor is very underrated.. My final Ice build was softcapped to S/L/E/N.. Perma Hoarfrost... and a Hibernate in the back pocket...







Noyjitat

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
  • Guess who cares?
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #56 on: February 17, 2015, 03:56:15 PM »
For invulnerablitly:
I only recommend it for tanks unless your brute or scrapper has a very nice damage set with some knockdowns and controls. It feels particularly useless on a scrapper but not
so much on a brute. 75% cap resist to attacks that do 1000 damage is still 250 damage and it adds up quickly on +3 and +4 enemies and the defense the set comes with it and it's dullpain just isn't as nice on a scrapper.

For SR:
I suggest taking aid self, I use to highly recommend this set but as time went on and nerfs and nerfs to defense and buffs to enemy accuracy and to hit. Even the old softcap of 45% just wasn't enough anymore with going rogue and beyond. It should still be enough for original paragon city and Rogue Isles content however (keyword being original)
Might run into some problems on +3 and +4 however.

If ninjitsu had ever been ported over from stalkers with tank/brute and scrapper replacements for some of it's powers I think it would of replaced super reflexes

I'm going to suggest Electricity armor as the all around good set. With it's resistance, the teleport knockdown, the self heal, debuffs and controls. Willpower is pretty nice when surrounded by enemies to make your regen increase on a tank but I never tried it on a scrapper or brute.

Ice was a late bloomer and I don't recall if scrapper or brutes get it as armor but I loved it on my tank. I played Ice/Ice but im sure you could find a better pair.

Dark Armor and Fire have moments but require sets or team buffs to really shine. Get a forcefielder to join you or an empath with fortitude.
I will likely be playing a warmace / fire armor or SR / fire armor as my first character.

My main and badger was MA/SR but as new content came out the only time I ever felt powerful again was with incarnates. MA needed more adjustments and was really showing it's age as time went on and SR's defense was just too easy for newer npcs to ignore, especially in praetoria.

P51mus

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 205
  • aka Pitho
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #57 on: February 18, 2015, 08:54:10 AM »
I'm going to suggest Electricity armor as the all around good set. With it's resistance, the teleport knockdown, the self heal, debuffs and controls.

I like Elec Armor, but it definitely doesn't have a teleport knockdown.  That's part of electric melee. 

Good all around resistances, a self heal, excellent end management and the ability to sap enemy end bars is pretty nice though.  And 20% bonus recharge.


HEATSTROKE

  • Lovin' bein' an
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 992
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #58 on: February 19, 2015, 03:34:18 PM »
I looked over my tanks and brutes ( I dont do Scrappers )

Every Set had its advantages...



But in terms of overall surviability.. My WP was pretty much unkillable.

Softcapped to S/L/E/N, 35% to Fire, Cold, Psi

Resists 70% S/L 40% Psi. 11.5 everything else...

The key however... The Regen..

With only one target in range with Rise of the Challenge His regen is 95 HP per second...
With 4 targets in range that jumps to 115HP per second...
With 8 Targets (what I call a normal sized mob) 141 HP per second...

So basically its very hard to damage him enough over time to take his HP down..

I have an Invul tank that Tanked Mother Mayhem even with minimal Psi resists because of Perma Dull Pain.. a massive heal and HP boost every 100 seconds will keep you alive..

Any tank can survive even adverse circumstances if built well..

 




Inc42

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 136
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #59 on: March 06, 2015, 09:53:03 PM »
Dont see many people talking about Stone Armor so wanted to throw in a bit about it. I generally would play brutes if I was melee, and my power combos were all over the place, but for tanks Stone Armor was my favorite. Once I finally got my groove I never made another tank. I also played it only on large teams, and only when a tank is what was needed, he was designed to pull aggro and survive without aid.

Disadvantages: Multiple powers would slow you down in both speed and recharge. The only travel power you could use without dropping all toggles was teleport, and you would instantly fall if you did it through the air.

Advantages: Granite armor would almost cap resistance with just IOs of anything but psionics AND give you a good amount of defense. Recharge debuffs can be overcome with sets+hasten, and with my style of running Granite+Tough+Weave+Maneuvers then sit there doing nothing but taunt or aoe attacks slotted for taunt I was untouchable, and so was the team. I didnt do damage, that was not my goal. I was there to tank, and tank I did.

Also worth mentioning, Granite Armor increases your character model to a size larger than you normally can be, INCLUDING weapons. My character was as tiny as possible with the mace attack set, and it was always funny to turn into the giant form and look down on people around me, pulling out a giant hammer. I was going to remake him with titan weapons instead, but never got around to it.

Vee

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,376
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #60 on: March 06, 2015, 10:00:24 PM »
There's the other downside to stone that you really don't want to try to tank with it before getting granite.

Inc42

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 136
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #61 on: March 06, 2015, 10:01:44 PM »
That is true, leveling before 32 was rough.

Waffles

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 387
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #62 on: March 07, 2015, 12:26:54 AM »

Waffles - thanks for the breakdown.  You named some of the set combos I've been most interested in, but paired them with different AT's.  Electric for instance, not looking to drain mobs and stop them from raising Fury.  What's your thought on making TW/Elec Brute rather than Scrapper or Tanker, my two preferences?  SS/Fire to a lesser extent, Fiery Aura is not ideal for Fury.  That hp of Tankers makes it a lot more survivable, and is about as offensive as Tanks can get.  For kill first, Scrappers seems a better choice.  Katana/WP, otoh, is an ideal Brute combo.  Fury out the wazoo, no redraws, Brute hp makes regen more effective.  Thanks for sharing.

I'm late to replying to this ;-;

The reason I made Kat/will a scrapper-only thing is 1: I have no experience with the brute variant and 2: The critical strikes really help it out, considering how fast the set is when you can use the gambler>Soar>Gambler>Dragonfly rotation.

As for TW/Elec's fury generation, the electric damage aura, and the alpha when you jump into a mob as Drain is animating will pretty much cap your fury relatively easily.

Brute is the optimal class for TW/elec, I never suggested it was a scrapper, I think? If I did, I edited that awhile ago.

Brute is the optimal class for /fire armor aswell, you just have to understand that Fire armor is a -very- offensively orientated shielding set. It's not exactly amazing for defensive purposes, -but- it offers you a way, way, way more aggressive playstyle. Which suits the brute rather well. You're essentially a blapper on roids. Hence the mention of munching on insps when farming, because mobs will drop in a single stomp+Burn combo.

Many talks I have with ol' synapse involved how to make Scrappers more competitive with brutes, because we pretty much agreed on how brutes completely overshadow scrappers in many cases.

The best scrapper combo, IMO, is Dark/shield. Amazing synergy, and scrappers benefit much more from dark consumption than brutes. Against all odds coupled with that, could nearly cap your damage buff %. Your AoE will mostly come from the /fire pool, and shield charge. These two things can damn well clear rooms alone with consumption up.

Critical midnight grasps could nearly one shot bosses

ryuplaneswalker

  • New Efforts # 17,000!
  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 190
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #63 on: March 13, 2015, 04:24:25 AM »
In just SOs - Stone Armor, Granite was so great Pre-IOing.

With IOs - Willpower and Shield both have some really strong points

With Incarnating - Dark Armor, with Issue -24 I would have had a Dark Armor brute as my main, that would have been capped in Melee, Ranged and almost AOE defenses, capped in Negative Energy and S/L resistance, and could COF without endurance issues.

If you could Run OG and COF without issues it was amazing for Mass Minion pulling.

ricodah

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 160
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #64 on: March 13, 2015, 07:12:46 AM »
If you leave out nightwidow as a non-standard melee, there was a Stj/SR stalker and Stj/Ice stalker that did disgusting things in the i24 beta to a pylon. Earlier there was a DB/Elec on the scrapper side as a long time frontrunner and then maybe a KM/something. Maybe someone with an archive of the old forum would know?

Microcosm! You were the one with the record DB/Elec scrapper.  Glad you're still around.  Stalkers were single target powerhouses in the end.   Auroxis had a fantastic Elec/Nin; Granite had the StJ/IA; I had great StJ/SR, DB/Nin and KM/EA dps numbers. 

Back to topic, other than SD, any secondary where you can softcap S/L/E/N type or positional defenses.  FA was awesome for the Burn/Blazing Aura; DA and ElA for their damage auras.  But I have to give props to SR.  Yes, simple and mindless but the ease to softcap 3 positions, great DDR out of the bag, gave it a lot of wiggle room to improve in other areas.  Only secondary I was not a fan of was regen, too clicky.

Waffles

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 387
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #65 on: March 14, 2015, 12:28:07 AM »
I remember my jaw dropping at this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-eW_P_NqMg

ricodah

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 160
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #66 on: March 14, 2015, 05:49:25 AM »
I remember my jaw dropping at this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-eW_P_NqMg

Hmmm... Why does that video look sooo familiar?  This one is for you!  For the love of Waffles!

https://youtu.be/xC2n-YFuWGc

HEATSTROKE

  • Lovin' bein' an
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 992
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #67 on: March 15, 2015, 05:24:49 AM »
Its amazing to me that ANY Set can be made really really good.. When you figure in IO's I don't think there is any set other than Fire that will clearly out do any other set.. Fire might be the weakest...

rebel 1812

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 131
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #68 on: March 15, 2015, 02:20:28 PM »
Its amazing to me that ANY Set can be made really really good.. When you figure in IO's I don't think there is any set other than Fire that will clearly out do any other set.. Fire might be the weakest...

You need to think of it as more a regen set to see it shine.

HEATSTROKE

  • Lovin' bein' an
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 992
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #69 on: March 16, 2015, 02:05:11 AM »
You need to think of it as more a regen set to see it shine.

For the record I have a Fire Tank that is soft capped to S/L and Healing Flames recharges in about 12 seconds.. However compared to all my other tanks I would have to say he is the weakest in terms of just straight survival.. He does however do more damage than any other tank I have ( except maybe one ) which helps him survive..

But I have to admit almost every other tank I own is probably tougher...

Microcosm

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 89
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #70 on: March 16, 2015, 04:06:48 AM »
I remember my jaw dropping at this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-eW_P_NqMg

I remember thinking Stalkers had finally been balanced against the other melees. There were a couple changes I would still have made around AoE's, but they were finally 'good'.

Inc42

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 136
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #71 on: March 17, 2015, 08:09:31 PM »
In just SOs - Stone Armor, Granite was so great Pre-IOing.

What was wrong with them after IOs? I saw a variety of builds that worked really well centering around granite. I saw people who's sets were focused on movement speed so they could keep up with the team better and shore that weakness, and people like me who were able to hard cap almost all resistances and at least soft cap the defenses.

If the game does come back and we have to restart, I may play with the attack set some because I found the mace to be boring, but I don't have any interest in playing a tank with any other defense set. I'll save the other sets for my army of brutes  ;D

Vee

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,376
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #72 on: March 17, 2015, 10:17:44 PM »
What was wrong with them after IOs? I saw a variety of builds that worked really well centering around granite. I saw people who's sets were focused on movement speed so they could keep up with the team better and shore that weakness, and people like me who were able to hard cap almost all resistances and at least soft cap the defenses.


saying something is great pre-IOing doesn't imply that it's bad post-IOing. the point was just that it's pretty tough from 33 on even on just SOs.

ryuplaneswalker

  • New Efforts # 17,000!
  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 190
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #73 on: March 24, 2015, 12:01:42 AM »
What was wrong with them after IOs? I saw a variety of builds that worked really well centering around granite. I saw people who's sets were focused on movement speed so they could keep up with the team better and shore that weakness, and people like me who were able to hard cap almost all resistances and at least soft cap the defenses.

If the game does come back and we have to restart, I may play with the attack set some because I found the mace to be boring, but I don't have any interest in playing a tank with any other defense set. I'll save the other sets for my army of brutes  ;D

Oh nothing in particular, but IOs let anyone cap out defenses and resistances, especially post issue 24 with the reworking of Resistance/Defense IOs, It was Pre-ED levels of broken IMO, my Kat/DA brute was Capped on S/L/N/E/P  resistence and Melee/Lethal/Smashing/Ranged Defense softcapped without the defense bonus from Parry.

The problem with Stone Armor and IOs was that, with IOs you could negate some of the effects of Stone Armor and get your runspeed and recharge speeds back up to normal levels. However you are still more or less stone armor.

As I said before, with IOs come Issue 24 my Dark Armor brute, would have had all the same advantages of stone armor,  none of the negatives..and some very big advantages, an AOE Fear, an AOE Stun, a Massive self heal, and a self rez that had a stun effect.

I am not saying Stone Armor is bad, just that it has a very Low Ceiling.

Joshex

  • [citation needed]
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,027
    • my talk page
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #74 on: March 24, 2015, 09:35:49 PM »
Willpower was pretty much my go-to defensive capability. (partly because I often built around the dual-wield powers, which locked out Shield) It provided wide range of coverage while giving back a bit of regen that other powers didn't. Basically you could set up a willpower on most front-line characters and not worry about micro-managing it for the rest of the game.

I know a lot of people who got a lot of use out of Dark... but personally I always found the visuals on Dark to be overwhelming. (particularly knuckleheads who set the colors to black-on-black) Thus it was difficult for me to use it and effectively play, particularly on dark underground maps. That said, it was probably the most offensively-oriented of all the secondary power sets with all of its AOEs and drains, so you could build a scrap-tank or a combat healer easily with it.

Yeas, willpower was teh shiznit!

When I first made a tank it was an invul, people said it was the easiest way to tank, it is nice to stand in a mob of smashing lethal and go afk. but... it's had it's faults, low endurence, and even with all the res poor def can kill.

shield was good, I've even seen scrappers who can tank on shield, most had to take advantage of Aoe though. it's one of those 'have to fight builds' can't AFK like with invul, and you fall down hard sometimes.

Willpower, it was a monster. my WP can tank anything, depends how you build it and what sets you use, you can cap psionic, toxic, smashing, lethal defense and decent res and a choice of either energy and negative (build 1) and fire and ice (build 2), with incarnate powers it was crazy. a good WP build never falls hard and /WILL/ take 20 minutes+ for PVE to ko it, so for those instances you just use resurgence and the enemies are like "Seriously, WTF man...?"

I can see why the freakshow use it, it's addictive, drove my tank insane lol, Me; "Must bash more hoards!" teammates: "dreadnaught we're trying to speed run this mission!" me: "aww come on I wanna clear! only 1 group left anyways!" teammates: "what? that was a full map of +4x8 and we're exemplared to 30 we were only in there 5 minutes how could you be on the last group?" me: "exiting, I'm satisfied, the bodies don't move any more.."

There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

HEATSTROKE

  • Lovin' bein' an
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 992
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #75 on: March 25, 2015, 03:04:23 AM »
Yeas, willpower was teh shiznit!

When I first made a tank it was an invul, people said it was the easiest way to tank, it is nice to stand in a mob of smashing lethal and go afk. but... it's had it's faults, low endurence, and even with all the res poor def can kill.

shield was good, I've even seen scrappers who can tank on shield, most had to take advantage of Aoe though. it's one of those 'have to fight builds' can't AFK like with invul, and you fall down hard sometimes.

Willpower, it was a monster. my WP can tank anything, depends how you build it and what sets you use, you can cap psionic, toxic, smashing, lethal defense and decent res and a choice of either energy and negative (build 1) and fire and ice (build 2), with incarnate powers it was crazy. a good WP build never falls hard and /WILL/ take 20 minutes+ for PVE to ko it, so for those instances you just use resurgence and the enemies are like "Seriously, WTF man...?"

I can see why the freakshow use it, it's addictive, drove my tank insane lol, Me; "Must bash more hoards!" teammates: "dreadnaught we're trying to speed run this mission!" me: "aww come on I wanna clear! only 1 group left anyways!" teammates: "what? that was a full map of +4x8 and we're exemplared to 30 we were only in there 5 minutes how could you be on the last group?" me: "exiting, I'm satisfied, the bodies don't move any more.."


First Disclaimer.. I use IO's and Hami-O's. I also used Incarnate abilities in the end as well. To me its a part of the game so I cannot use the.. Well this is better on SO's argument as part of my platform..

I have played every secondary on a tank except Granite and I built a Granite for my wife. I was going to build a TW/STONE tank.. but the game ended..

This is what I stand by.. You can make ANY set good..

INV

Invulnerable had its faults.. thats a moot point.. every set had a fault. every set had a weakness...

However in the end game my INV tank could withstand pretty much anything.. even non S/L foes.. I tanked Mother Mayhem. Psi Clock King.. Malaise.. all PSI enemies with an INV tank..

My Inv tank had defense softcapped to S/L/E/N.. 88% resistance to S/L and 27% to everything else 17% to Psi. Of course there was always unstoppable but I rarely if ever used it..

End was never an issue. I have some IO's to help with that.. but in reality attacks drain more end that toggles.. If you dont slot attacks for end reduction.. your asking for trouble..

Now the real gem of the build was Perma Dull Pain.. Thats the Trick.. the ability to keep your HP maxed out and heal 80% of damage taken every 104 seconds is huge.. basically.. most enemies couldnt get through the HP fast enough before it healed to max again..

Shield

Shield was actually an easy build Easy to Soft Cap to every position. so Melee, Range and AoE easily softcapped and you could get about 65% DefDebuff resistance.. Pretty Much you could stand around and watch foes swing and miss all day.. I had 4 shield toons..3 tanks.. 1 Brute and I certainly did not HAVE to fight to survive..

Willpower

Yes WP was a monster..  my final WP build was softcapped to S/L/E/N Decent Psi Defense and Resists.. Its real gem was the ability to Regen about 95 HP per second with one foe in range 115 with 4, 141HP per second with 8 Foes.. Very hard to kill.. very hard to take down..

I fought Marauder on a Lambda to an absolute stand still.. We couldnt take each other down..

And yet it still wasnt my most survivable Tank.. That goes to..

ICE

WHAT ICE ???? Are you kidding me..

Yes.. Soft capped also to S/L/N/E.. Chilling Embrace reduces Damage and Recharge speed which also reduces incoming damage.. AND Perma Hoarfrost.. Remember Perma Dull Pain earlier?? Same thing.. 50% Defense Debuff Resistance.. 100% slow resistance..

But wait that doesnt seem better.. aaaah but then there is also HIBERNATE.. nice little power.. just in case you get in over your head.. click.. get your health and end back.. Full Bar.. Pop back out.. tank some more.. and you dont have to be dead to use it... and it doesnt kill you when it shuts down either..

Dark Armor and Electric Armor also get honorable mentions.. Energy Aura for Brute and Super Reflexes also very good..

Now depending on your primary.. you could turn good survival into GREAT survival..

Dark/Stone tank had Fault.. and Oppressive Gloom.. Which means a mag 4 Stun at all times. Stunned Bosses.. win win..

Vee

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,376
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #76 on: March 25, 2015, 04:29:00 AM »
We were talking about what works on SOs only because we're all under the impression that if the game comes back we're going to have trouble IOing a toon for a while.

Also people keep using the survivability of their tanks as arguments for particular sets. I consider tanks kind of easy mode as far as survivability goes. The holes show up a lot more with scrap/broot values.

Joshex

  • [citation needed]
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,027
    • my talk page
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #77 on: March 25, 2015, 12:51:42 PM »
We were talking about what works on SOs only because we're all under the impression that if the game comes back we're going to have trouble IOing a toon for a while.

Oh! is that what this thread is about? yeah I know a lot of people slotted themselves via paragon points and VIP store points, so you may not have figured out all the really easy ways to get Sets.. (every MMO has them, they require a little patience, it's like fishing)

What do you want to get? LOTG? ITF, run it and run it some more if you keep your recipe slots open you'll get around 0.8 per run with a chance of 2 per run. LOTG is also high on the AE ticket rare drop rolls! so you are more likely to get them there too along with positron's blast and obliteration.

Purples; New DA, mob. Do it. increased purple drops in incarnate zones. using that system I could cap mah monah every week, I'd get 2 to 3 purples a day.

PVP origins? Hero/Villain Merits you can also get Purples and such this way, takes a while so only use it for really hard to get stuff from drops, again focus on LOTG and PVP origin here, LOTG you can sell, PVP you can seel too but they are more costly in merits.

and of course if you need normal rares or yellows The freakshow war is open to you all day, all night long for your villain smashing pleasure, it's merit yield does NOT diminish with each run!!

Point of trade; Get yourself a really good toon, this is your moneymaker, it will be  tank, MM, brute, scrapper and in some cases; controller, dominator. blasters can be OK, my blaster could fly tank, it's not that pretty but it gets the job done.

so now you have a really good toon, get your enhancements on them, craft them on them, email to yourself for other toons.

simple stuff really. want something I didn't list? ask while I still remember how to get it lol.
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

HEATSTROKE

  • Lovin' bein' an
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 992
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #78 on: March 25, 2015, 01:41:20 PM »
We were talking about what works on SOs only because we're all under the impression that if the game comes back we're going to have trouble IOing a toon for a while.

Also people keep using the survivability of their tanks as arguments for particular sets. I consider tanks kind of easy mode as far as survivability goes. The holes show up a lot more with scrap/broot values.

I doubt that we will have trouble with on IO's toons.. There will be tons of farming.. There will be IO's... And I also assume that the marketplace and Wentworths will be re-established. Also Merits will still exist. I wouldnt be surprised if they open up the marketplace with purchasable IO's to fuel cash..

And I could duplicate every one of these sets on a Brute and survive just as well. I have an Shield, Energy Aura and Shield Brute and they all survive well. I dont play scrappers so I cannot comment on that.

The other issue is that survival isnt just standing there taking hits.. Its the ability to take down the foes attacking you.. Brutes are superior to tanks in that respect in most cases.  So they can and will survive..


Vee

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,376
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #79 on: March 25, 2015, 11:56:29 PM »
Yeah we know the IO tricks, but it's still going to take a while to go from 0-fully IO'd with no supply, even with converters. I took the point of a lot of the thread to be what would be a good toon to do all those tricks on.

As far as broot vs tanks. The point of the best defense being a good offense is true for most content. If we're talking about standard missions no question. My perceptions are a bit skewed as my crew used to run lrsf about every day. The difference between our pre-GR broots on the end fight and the post-GR tanks of the same armor types was quite noticeable. Of course post-incarnates it didn't matter anyway as all of that content became a joke. Almost any well built tank or broot could handle 4/8 at game close.

ryuplaneswalker

  • New Efforts # 17,000!
  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 190
Re: Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?
« Reply #80 on: March 29, 2015, 03:44:18 AM »
We were talking about what works on SOs only because we're all under the impression that if the game comes back we're going to have trouble IOing a toon for a while.

Also people keep using the survivability of their tanks as arguments for particular sets. I consider tanks kind of easy mode as far as survivability goes. The holes show up a lot more with scrap/broot values.

Oh in just SOs? I would probably rate Shield as second to last in just SOs in terms of being a tank, I love Shield but it does give up a good bit of Survival for Damage, which is fine not everything should be the same, but in just SOs Invuln and Stone armor were the two beasts, Invuln had the super god mode of unstoppable, and Granite was awesome.