Argument for any melee defense other than Shield?

[Microcosm]

Since no stalkers can use shields, I'm kind of out of this already  The main benefit of shield to me is the extra AoE, and the main detriment is the endurance issues. I would probably not pair a primary that already has plenty of AoE init with shield for regular play (exclude farming) and instead opt for something like Electric armor. There are also sets that need every ounce of recharge (dual blades, which I know is already locked out), for which electric or energy are probably better. To me, the only set that works perfectly with it is dm, which is why we saw sooo many of those. Even then though, toward the end of the game DM/SD was not the top 1 or 2 highest damaging combos from the rikti pylon results. You could argue about the survivability of the combos that beat it, but it just depends on what you're aiming for.

[Vee]

invun is very easy, uses very little end and very powerful.  You could make the argument that it is better or any of the sets.  Its really what you are looking for.

I assume you're talking tank. invuln is pretty meh on broots.

[cohRock]

While whittling the time until reinstatement, I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one working in Mids dusting off old builds and hypothesizing.  The main wildcard in toon design is whether we will be starting with an empty marketplace, or if choice IO's will somehow be made available.  In either case, however, it's hard for me to come up with a better choice than Shield for melee toons.  *With the important caveat that I want a versatile toon who can experience all content smoothly, either solo or on a team*.  Does anyone have any good arguments for other choices, either in theory or from personal experience?  Thanks!

Especially for a tank or brute, consider Super Reflexes / Dark Melee.  IMO, SR's power is amplified significantly when there is a larger pool of health to begin with.  DM gives you a self-heal attack, which helps cover the absence of a heal in SR.

http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/download.php?uc=1494&c=719&a=1438&f=HEX&dc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

[rebel 1812]

Since no stalkers can use shields, I'm kind of out of this already  The main benefit of shield to me is the extra AoE, and the main detriment is the endurance issues. I would probably not pair a primary that already has plenty of AoE init with shield for regular play (exclude farming) and instead opt for something like Electric armor. There are also sets that need every ounce of recharge (dual blades, which I know is already locked out), for which electric or energy are probably better. To me, the only set that works perfectly with it is dm, which is why we saw sooo many of those. Even then though, toward the end of the game DM/SD was not the top 1 or 2 highest damaging combos from the rikti pylon results. You could argue about the survivability of the combos that beat it, but it just depends on what you're aiming for.

what were the highest damaging combos according to your tests.

[robo40]

lol, completely overlooked Stalkers as melee.  Agree that DM is a top overall choice for a balanced toon with almost any secondary, the heal (on a solid attack) is frequently overlooked as a game changer.  But I'd say SD is the first choice for SS/BS/BA/WM/EM/Elec and even Fire, though Fire and SS both pair well with Fiery Aura at the high end.

Invuln has the Psi hole and no offense.  Would make for a smooth ride, but less high end potential later.  It certainly has it's memorable "uber" moments, though.

Energy Aura is a smooth ride, and the Debuff Res is very nice.  But capping S/L is so easy once we start getting some IO's, I think Electric is a better choice if you want rech and end redux.  Though again, high end those are eventually pretty easy to get, the difference is small for rech.  Unless you want to set a pylon record, which is of course an entirely different story.  The End redux can make a difference with your Incarnate choice though, so certainly that can support a good argument for Electric.  Capped Energy Res for end game is obviously great as well.

[Eoraptor]

I never even thought of trying to put a shield on a stalker, which is probably why I didn't know it was locked out *chuckles* shows that you could play the game for years and still not try all the permutations...

[Canine]

The main argument for any defensive set other than Shield?

Shield didn't fit the character concept.

That's it to me.

[robo40]

I assure you, I have no shortage of concepts for restart.

[RGladden]

I cast my vote for Willpower.  It's about the only defensive set that could do what I wanted it to do with most of the attack sets;  maintain a steady, unending attack stream with almost no cool down time.

I tinkered around a bit with WP and various brute builds, but was never completely satisfied with any of them.  In my opinion, for what it's worth, WP was at its best as a tank build.  I had two WP builds that I took to level 50, one paired with Super Strength, and the other with Dark Melee.  While the Super strength build was a blast to play once you got Foot Stomp and Rage, I actually had fewer problems with the Dark Melee build, with its debuffs, largely unresistable damage attacks, and invention enhancement sets that gave defense bonuses.  By the time I reached levels 35-40 with that build it was well nigh unkillable.

[Microcosm]

what were the highest damaging combos according to your tests.

If you leave out nightwidow as a non-standard melee, there was a Stj/SR stalker and Stj/Ice stalker that did disgusting things in the i24 beta to a pylon. Earlier there was a DB/Elec on the scrapper side as a long time frontrunner and then maybe a KM/something. Maybe someone with an archive of the old forum would know?

[Waffles]

To answer the question... for a scrapper, my nominations.

 Katana/will. - With parry, you will never die.

For a brute...

SS/Fire - Easily one of the fastest killers in the game, very close to plant/fire permadoms. What you lack in defensive strength, you make up for in insane, raw attack power. A double raged burn will kill equal level minions with the initial hit, and the burn will kill lieutenants. Fiery embraced knockout blow will take bosses to half health. Build primarily for recharge, if defense is needed, pop a luck inspiration.

Titan/Elec: The two sets have fantastic synergy. Once you unlock the drain ability, you can sap entire mobs to bottomed out endurance with one press of a button, plus, your damage aura will keep their endurance bottomed out. this makes the 'ramp up' time for Titan weapon's powers a non-issue, and the killing power this set has, especially with a force feedback proc on whirling blow, is very high tier, plus, you have infinite endurance. Bonus: You're immune to sappers.

Claws/Dark: Brutes scale better with this combination, it's easy to slot recharge for, and focus on defensives with, plus, the Cardiac alpha will make the notorious Dark Regen energy cost nothing to you. You'll have a full health-bar once every fifteen seconds.

Stalker

Ice Armor and Energy Aura: Both have multiple layers of defense, and can achieve the softcaps with relative ease. Ice seems like it would be more powerful once fully slotted, but Energy Aura will level easier.

[Eoraptor]

I always found dual-swords/will to be a fabulous build as well, because you could stack up combos like nobodies business and debuff and lawn-mower your way through fields of enemies without exhausting your energy levels too badly.

[P51mus]

Fire armor is really nice for alpha striking things into oblivion.  When Firey Embrace got changed to add extra fire damage to non fire attacks it became REALLY nice for killing things.  A fairly fast cycling self heal combined with resistance so you have the time to use it is nice as well.

I had a Metal Spikes (Spines)/Fire armor  Metal themed scrapper that made really good use of it.

[Angel Phoenix77]

I always found dual-swords/will to be a fabulous build as well, because you could stack up combos like nobodies business and debuff and lawn-mower your way through fields of enemies without exhausting your energy levels too badly.

most of my "new characters" had /will power, the reason for this is I was depressed when they changed the 9th power of regen and the characters I got to 50 before the change, I never touched again. I tried /dark, I found this was far to endurance heavy power set. I tried invlun, I did not have any fun so I rerolled. Then I heard of /willpower and tried it. I loved it then I started looking for ways to make /willpower stronger and found the fighting pools and that helped fill the holes in /will power.
I tried a ma/will power and got all of the way to 30, I did not have fun mostly because I expected to see the shield in fights.
So I would say while willpower has holes it in, there are ways to fill the. So I would say will power on any melee at will power would be the power I would choose no question asked

[Pyromantic]

I will echo what others have said in that WP is a solid overall set.  If you're worried about the time required for IO resources to become available, it may well be the best set. 

Though, really, I think it comes down to personal preference in a lot of ways.  Most melee characters could be built with more than enough mitigation to be successful in play.

[robo40]

Thanks, good stuff here.  I agree that part of the fun of this game is that you can play anything you want thru any content. That said, I enjoy the challenge of maxing out my chars.  Besides, it's not like I can be running content right now.    For those recommending WP, have you gone incarnate with SD or Electric?  I've found those to be noticeably higher performance in the end game, it's interesting to hear otherwise.  WP is certainly smooth on the way up though, esp on a budget.

Waffles - thanks for the breakdown.  You named some of the set combos I've been most interested in, but paired them with different AT's.  Electric for instance, not looking to drain mobs and stop them from raising Fury.  What's your thought on making TW/Elec Brute rather than Scrapper or Tanker, my two preferences?  SS/Fire to a lesser extent, Fiery Aura is not ideal for Fury.  That hp of Tankers makes it a lot more survivable, and is about as offensive as Tanks can get.  For kill first, Scrappers seems a better choice.  Katana/WP, otoh, is an ideal Brute combo.  Fury out the wazoo, no redraws, Brute hp makes regen more effective.  Thanks for sharing.

[Pyromantic]

One of my planned builds if the game comes back is an Elec/Stone/Soul Tank.  Solid resists, a strong heal, enough defense (from pool powers and IOs) and -tohit to dramatically reduce hit rates, and /stone's excellent control should make for an extremely sturdy character.  Add in decent AoE and a top-tier ST chain for damage, and I expect it to do very well.

I think the combination of building for defense along with Soul Mastery makes primarily-resistance sets a very good option for Tanks.

[Vee]

Thanks, good stuff here.  I agree that part of the fun of this game is that you can play anything you want thru any content. That said, I enjoy the challenge of maxing out my chars.  Besides, it's not like I can be running content right now.    For those recommending WP, have you gone incarnate with SD or Electric?  I've found those to be noticeably higher performance in the end game, it's interesting to hear otherwise.  WP is certainly smooth on the way up though, esp on a budget.

I think those of us saying wp were doing so with the idea of returning to the game and only having SOs available. It's clearly outperformed in end game by several other sets. On the other hand, you can make an IO'd wp at 50 for much cheaper than most other sets, so it'd be an overall great idea for an early-return toon.

[P51mus]

Oh, I've also used Electric armor on both a brute and a tank.  It's a really solid set now, ever since it gained its own heal (which also reduces the end cost of everything you use).  It also has a recharge reduction passive, a damage aura and Power sink in case you still don't have enough end somehow.

Only problem is it has no real durability against toxic damage.

On Tank I paired it up with Titan Weapons, for an end heavy powerset that makes good use of the extra recharge.


I'm probably making a Kinetic Melee/ Willpower Scrapper as my first melee on return though.

[Pyromantic]

It's clearly outperformed in end game by several other sets.

I don't know that I agree with that.  My Kat/WP scrapper was insanely durable.