Author Topic: And the mask comes off.  (Read 1747256 times)

Remaugen

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #1000 on: September 04, 2014, 05:31:04 PM »
True on the city feel. I always wanted to race the cars running beside them or jump on the roof and car surf down the street.  :P

Now and then you could surf a truck until it cornered, but most of the time I just slid off, but yeah, I was always trying anyway!
We're almost there!  ;D

The RNG hates me.

Fridgy Daiere

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #1001 on: September 04, 2014, 05:52:33 PM »
It certainly could have used improvement. The ability to stack and clip things, I think, are crucial.
and I seriously always wanted multiple floors. That would have been so amazing.

And either smaller doorways or (and this would be preferred) the ability to place things in a doorway.  That being said, let's not put the cart before the horse.

First, we need the game!   ;)

pinballdave

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #1002 on: September 04, 2014, 06:31:41 PM »
I wondered about that myself... Skyway always just kind of felt like there were freeways just for the sake of having freeways. Very, very odd.
A couple weeks ago, I briefly considered nuking Skyway City from orbit and just making up some story as to why it didn't exist anymore. lol.

Didn't some of the larger destroyed zoned have larger streets and highway? I am thinking Rikti War Zone, Boomtown, and Faultline

pinballdave

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #1003 on: September 04, 2014, 06:33:03 PM »
And either smaller doorways or (and this would be preferred) the ability to place things in a doorway.  That being said, let's not put the cart before the horse.

First, we need the game!   ;)

Let's not put the cart before the Nemesis steam pony

Arcana

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #1004 on: September 04, 2014, 06:35:19 PM »
The whole code reuse thing is pure speculation that people are throwing out there as a possibility.

The one instance of code reuse that I think is likely is in the authentication code. I know for a fact that COH uses a modified version of the Lineage II authentication protocol to log in, so it's likely that component is built off of NCSoft's code rather than Cryptic's.

Beyond that, I doubt it. I think it's very unlikely that anyone currently working for NCSoft has even looked at the code, much less has any idea how it works. That's quite possibly part of the problem.

In order to offer it as part of the deal, they'd have to get experienced programmers to pick it apart and make a list of issues for the lawyers to vet. Things like proprietary info specific to NCSoft's server environment, commercial code licensed from third parties that needs to be accounted for, etc. Off the top of my head it's apparent from disassembling the binary that quite a few libraries are statically linked, an audit of those would need to be done to determine if they are allowed to redistribute them / transfer the license and under what conditions. They would also need to remove any pieces that can't be transferred, which would likely leave it in an unbuildable (though not necessarily unsalvagable) state. Things get murky if there are any instances of third-party code copied into the main source, and from what I hear the COH programmers looooved CTRL+C/CTRL+V.

That's the problem in a nutshell, but I should point out that while its possible large blocks of code were reused in other NCSoft products like the authentication code, its also possible that the reverse happened: a developer hired to add code to CoH "borrowed" code from somewhere else.  That would be a potential problem, but the liability associated with that problem died with CoH.  Unless, of course, they start handing out the source code to people.

A code audit wouldn't just be necessary to make sure that NCSoft was not giving away someone else they wanted: that's actually not as big a deal because the downside there is low.  The huge potential minefield is the potential they would be giving away something they didn't actually own.

Xaphan

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #1005 on: September 04, 2014, 06:42:59 PM »
What I'd always wanted for bases in CoH was separate bases for social stuff and raiding stuff. A lot of the stuff in the old bases, the big 1x1 doorways you couldn't put anything in for example, were there because of the raiding system... and the fact that raiding was removed just made them all the more frustrating! So I think that creating bases from the bottom up without any intent to make them raidable would just make things so much nicer.

But that's not to say to forget about raiding entirely. Raiding was fun, when we could do it! So instead, have a separate, smaller base that's only purpose is for raiding. It could have much stricter rules on where or how you could place things (since it wouldn't be used for social stuff), so you wouldn't have to worry about things like people cheating by doing things like using a glitch to stack tables and make it impossible to reach certain items. It could be much more controlled, and I think it would make for a better raiding system.
(as an additional note, why just have PvP raids? We could have PvE raids too, where you have to defend the base you built from waves of enemies! That way, even the lonely 1 person SGs could get in on the fun)

LaughingAlex

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #1006 on: September 04, 2014, 06:43:25 PM »
Speaking of which... I created a forum account over there, but I can't seem to post. Every time I click post, nothing happens except the post button changing to a "saving post" message, but the post never appears.

Also, that Deus Ex pic is AMAZING.




EDIT:
Nevermind, seems fixed today. I was trying to post yesterday, and it wasn't working. I was just able to post a couple minutes ago.

Aye, Hangsha is the funnest section of deus ex: Human revolution.
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

Arcana

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #1007 on: September 04, 2014, 06:43:38 PM »
I will warn you, however. Something nobody thought to tell me when I got into learning Game creation. Get into it far enough, and you'll never look at games the same way. You start to look at how you think things were built, and how you might build them better/differently. Seriously, I look at games and I like...see Wireframes and scripts, lol.

I look at games, particularly MMOs, and I see ... a need to improve math programs in the US education system.

LaughingAlex

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #1008 on: September 04, 2014, 06:49:01 PM »
I look at games, particularly MMOs, and I see ... a need to improve math programs in the US education system.

Even just modding a game will cause you to look at that game differently.  The game Myth 2, soulblighter for example, instead of a molotove being seen thrown by a dwarf, I see a 15% chance it'll promote to a "dwarf bottle unlit" per impact the "Dwarf bottle lit" makes, 85% chance it'll actually explode.  I also see a .010 velocity error when I see an unskilled bowman firing at something, with .02 velocity error reduction for every kill a bowman has.  And so on effectively :P.
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

ParagonKid

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #1009 on: September 04, 2014, 06:54:21 PM »
Regarding Skyway City:

I'd have to dig out the novels but IIRC, their take on the zone was more interesting. Skyway was, at least by the mid 1980's, kind of failed Art-Deco-Jet-Age-Dream with elevated tube pedways (the titular Skyways) over snaking freeways. Like if someone left the 1964 World's Fair and EPCOT to rot in the economic downturn of the 70's. It was also the city's telecom broadcasting hub since the golden age of radio due to it's elevation, with the ever increasing number of antennas and dishes being added to the art deco towers over the decades being a particular source of urban blight.

hejtmane

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #1010 on: September 04, 2014, 07:02:19 PM »
I look at games, particularly MMOs, and I see ... a need to improve math programs in the US education system.

The math wizard waves

LaughingAlex

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #1011 on: September 04, 2014, 07:09:10 PM »
The math wizard waves

Actually I see a sore lack of physics knowledge when I see mmorpg gameplay.  They just do all hit rolls wheres the real projectiles?  Actually I can only think of one, no, three real time strategy games even where physics truely mattered in rts's.  So that leaves me feeling games still have a ways to go when it comes to physics.  At least mmorpgs for sure need physics to matter more.

Edit: I know, went a little in the head upstairs in this one but, really.  If a fireball follows me, it's hit roles, if I can sidestep it, it's physics.  If throwing a projectile that weighs more than may other projecties causes it to fall short due to my applying the same velocity/force, compared to others, thats physics.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2014, 07:19:21 PM by LaughingAlex »
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

Minotaur

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #1012 on: September 04, 2014, 07:20:36 PM »
Heh, I probably see it a bit clearer than many because I'm a programmer by trade, have been for over 20 years.  I don't write games, but I DO write huge, complicated application software.  Right now we're working on porting all our legacy VB6 code over to C#.  This is going to take us at LEAST 2 years, just to get back to the current status quo...  And this is just a sales/invoicing/production system...

These youngsters, unfortunately not many games are written in the COBOL and FORTRAN that I did most of my programming in :)

ivanhedgehog

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #1013 on: September 04, 2014, 07:29:24 PM »
These youngsters, unfortunately not many games are written in the COBOL and FORTRAN that I did most of my programming in :)

I learned fortran 4 on punched cards....loooong time ago

Arcana

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #1014 on: September 04, 2014, 07:31:38 PM »
These youngsters, unfortunately not many games are written in the COBOL and FORTRAN that I did most of my programming in :)

I wrote a GUI in RPG II once.

pinballdave

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #1015 on: September 04, 2014, 07:34:06 PM »
I learned fortran 4 on punched cards....loooong time ago

oops excuse me, did you drop this card?

Arcana

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #1016 on: September 04, 2014, 07:39:04 PM »
Actually I see a sore lack of physics knowledge when I see mmorpg gameplay.  They just do all hit rolls wheres the real projectiles?  Actually I can only think of one, no, three real time strategy games even where physics truely mattered in rts's.  So that leaves me feeling games still have a ways to go when it comes to physics.  At least mmorpgs for sure need physics to matter more.

Edit: I know, went a little in the head upstairs in this one but, really.  If a fireball follows me, it's hit roles, if I can sidestep it, it's physics.  If throwing a projectile that weighs more than may other projecties causes it to fall short due to my applying the same velocity/force, compared to others, thats physics.

The difference being game designers are often explicitly not trying to do accurate physics.  But I don't think most game designers are explicitly not trying to do accurate arithmetic.

When I beta tested Champions Online, I decided to analyze the effectiveness and performance of the defensive powers (of course).  I concluded they were wildly unbalanced, and in some cases explicitly broken mechanically.  I summarized my observations and sent them to the devs, asking if they wanted to discuss further.  I never heard back from them the three separate times I tried.  When they launched, players complained they were horribly unbalanced and in some cases broken.  The devs posted something that basically said trust us, we have a spreadsheet.

That's when I stopped testing Champions Online.  You can't argue with "I have a spreadsheet, ergo I'm right."  Even if the math is so horribly wrong that not only can you prove its wrong, you can even prove what must have gone wrong in the sheet without even looking at it (which I posted, then went back to testing combat clocks in City of Heroes and really didn't bother analyzing CO very much past that point).

Azrael

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #1017 on: September 04, 2014, 07:40:37 PM »
Quote
Quote from: Arcana on Today at 07:08:04 am
That's why Codewalker is the only player I fear.  He likes it.  That's Cthulhu kinds of wrong.

With words like that, it's clear that the CoH Legacy is in safe hands.

As Codewalker once said, 'It's only code.'

Meaning, good programmers who know what they are doing, like a challenge and know their maths...

...sounds like we're just waiting on a deal. 

It's like I said previously.

1.  Get Legacy back at Issue 23.  I just want to play the original.
2.  CoH 1.5.  Port to a modern engine.  (Zones are already designed.  We know the combat/powers system and numbers?  We're often told the combat mechanic is quite simple.  In that case, I look forward to it's visceral and kinetic ballet being replicated in Unreal 4 Engine. :P  We know the missions etc.)  Ie.  Look at Icon and port the 'on Hard Drive' assets to Unreal Engine 4 which is a belter of a release.  That kind of leaves the Server side of things to reverse engineer still?  But couldn't savvy Code 'Warriors' ;) be able to at least pick apart and look at the Issue 23 'map' image and deconstruct it to have a look at how the server side works rather than 'guessing' (apologies for this presumption...in advance...) re: SCORE?  If the engine is different to data based and spreadsheet aspects of the game can be 'observed' and decoupled (even) then perhaps the assets can be developed...and ported over to Unreal 4 Engine...?  For me.  CoH is the Combat (allegedly quite simple?) mechanic, the interface, graphical assets, zones, sounds, missions and obviously the server side.  How much of this is hard wired into the 'engine' and how much sits on top how tightly coupled it is...hard for me to say.  I'm not a programmer with that level of access or experience.
3.  Spiritual successors can carry on with their mandate.
4. A true CoH 2?  *shrugs.  That's kind of what points 2 and 3 are in summation.

Azrael.

PS.
Quote
When I beta tested Champions Online, I decided to analyze the effectiveness and performance of the defensive powers (of course).  I concluded they were wildly unbalanced, and in some cases explicitly broken mechanically.

Tell me about it.  CO.  Basically 'broken.'

CoH.  The Combat was ballet.  The 'numbers' worked.  The zones sublime in tone.  The archetypes sang.  The teaming mechanic simplicity finessed.  Any flaws the game had were, for the most, part of it's 'original' charm.  (Apart from the incarnate design, interface and 'mega legion missions' which sucked and strayed far from the game's who modus, simplicity of interface and easy to pick up.  I'd have preferred they kept the standard powers interface for incarnate powers.  Which this pokey little nest fest interface.  Terrible.  Unintuitive.)

Lightning in a bottle.

As for 'realism' - who wants that?  You can see the pitfalls of that thought process in any Marvel movie.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2014, 08:00:36 PM by Azrael »

Ankhammon

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #1018 on: September 04, 2014, 08:00:24 PM »

I will warn you, however. Something nobody thought to tell me when I got into learning Game creation. Get into it far enough, and you'll never look at games the same way. You start to look at how you think things were built, and how you might build them better/differently. Seriously, I look at games and I like...see Wireframes and scripts, lol.

Follow the White Rabbit.
Cogito, Ergo... eh?

LaughingAlex

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #1019 on: September 04, 2014, 08:02:54 PM »
The difference being game designers are often explicitly not trying to do accurate physics.  But I don't think most game designers are explicitly not trying to do accurate arithmetic.

When I beta tested Champions Online, I decided to analyze the effectiveness and performance of the defensive powers (of course).  I concluded they were wildly unbalanced, and in some cases explicitly broken mechanically.  I summarized my observations and sent them to the devs, asking if they wanted to discuss further.  I never heard back from them the three separate times I tried.  When they launched, players complained they were horribly unbalanced and in some cases broken.  The devs posted something that basically said trust us, we have a spreadsheet.

That's when I stopped testing Champions Online.  You can't argue with "I have a spreadsheet, ergo I'm right."  Even if the math is so horribly wrong that not only can you prove its wrong, you can even prove what must have gone wrong in the sheet without even looking at it (which I posted, then went back to testing combat clocks in City of Heroes and really didn't bother analyzing CO very much past that point).

So many players knew CO, actually, the devs didn't even know the math behind any of the powers they designed.  It was blown wide open when people were using power combinations to achieve 10k+ damage hits with attacks that only did around 200-300 damage hits.  I remember someone saying to me, "anyone who has any intelligence will leave this game when something better comes along, only people I've talked to who'll stay with this game no matter what were all complete idiots".  And I can fully see why the person said that, because when you actually play CO you can definently tell the game is so horribly imbalanced and fundamentally broken that it's more like to scream" build this thing cause it's not only an agro holding tank, it out damages all the damage and only need slight healing in fire and ice!" or "Don't do X because Y does the same thing cheaper, faster and more effectively without any tradeoffs!".

When I look at CO, and city of heroes, I end up respectively looking at Invisible War and the original deus Ex.  The original Deus Ex was an awesome game, and certainly earned a lot of respect.  City of heroes was the same way as deus ex, an awesome game that earned it's respect.  Both games had very solid writing and while they did have problems, they were also well balanced to.  JC Denton wasn't a mary sue, he had his faults and it readily became apparent in his dialogue(emotionless, blindly patriotic initially, yet still tended to say something funny once in a while by accident at times).

Invisible war, everyone dispised it.  One speed runner described it as a "neat game with a LOT of problems" and most describe it as a linear, generic shooter that marked the beginning of the decline of first person shooters, it lowered the fps standard severely.  The story writing was poor, at best, at worst Alex D is very mary/marty sueful, in that he/she is the sole peice of the puzzle EVERY SINGLE FACTION NEEDS.  NPCs are even dumber in invisible war, to, the game has less options as well.  Even in a case where someone did once try to be a 100% pacifist, he felt the game litterally had no thinking behind it, unlike the original, to.

And Champions online makes very similar mistakes.

It gives a very bad example as to what a super hero mmorpg could be like, in which everyone is a mary sue, just like invisible war's alex D is a mary sue(there are litterally NO consequences for your actions in invisible war, none, zip, zilch, every single faction INSTANTLY forgives anything you do in it no matter how monstrous it is).  NPCs worship you in an especially creepy way in CO, the freeform system screams only use the best, story writing is bad, you name it.  There really isn't much thinking, other than the character build, and it's easy to fall asleep playing it even.

CO's biggest problem perhaps was developers just running loose with just messing up what makes an rpg good, failing even what it'd really take to make an mmorpg good consequently.  I should bring up that video where a guy found out you could become 100% invincible in the game due to a glitch, or the same guy acheving I think 100k damage hits on enemies.
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.