Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra

[Illusionss]

Yeah. Good idea. Calling them all types of names like ncstupid and etc don't help.

I am absolutely willing to back off of NCStupid, the day they prove to all of us that 1. they are not actually stupid and that 2. they are not withholding the game out of malice.

An annoucement of sale of CoX to a third party would be an excellent way to get that stigma off of themselves.

[Segev]

While I'm not telling you to stop, Illusioness, I feel the need to point out that JaguarX's point isn't that NCSoft doesn't deserve the name-calling, but that he feels it diminishes your apparent "standing" by making you appear petulant.

I'm a staunch member of a particular political leaning, and I still wince every time I see those with whom I ostensibly agree on some forum or article's comments mutilating names in "witty" (but really just lame and possibly crude) ways.

Two examples from both sides of the aisle:

"Stan Coulter" (as an attempt to make the accusation that Ann is mannish)
"Obummer" (which, worse, is actually one of the better attempts at toying with the President's last name, as it doesn't take a few seconds to figure out who the poster actually means)

The name-calling just makes me think less of the poster, not of the target of the name-calling.

No offense intended; I'm just trying to clarify that your response to JaguarX's post misses the point he was trying to make.

[Ironwolf]

You see here is the problem - Positron did not know that NCSoft was actually dealing in good faith. It may have been a simple - extend the talks until it is far too late for them to complain.

Become your enemy, what would you do if you were firing some people and shutting down an entire operation and all you had to do to maintain some level of goodwill and to slow down the ire of the consumers was to allow "talks" to go on that you had no intention of ever concluding.

Does this make them evil - or a clever business person?

Depends on which end of the phone you are on doesn't it? Sticking points occurred by Positron's own account - yet they did not know what they even were. Does that sound like an actual negotiation? It sounds more like a delay tactic - keep them off balance and hopeful all while you exit, quietly.

[Mistress Urd]

While I'm not telling you to stop, Illusioness, I feel the need to point out that JaguarX's point isn't that NCSoft doesn't deserve the name-calling, but that he feels it diminishes your apparent "standing" by making you appear petulant.

I'm a staunch member of a particular political leaning, and I still wince every time I see those with whom I ostensibly agree on some forum or article's comments mutilating names in "witty" (but really just lame and possibly crude) ways.

Two examples from both sides of the aisle:

"Stan Coulter" (as an attempt to make the accusation that Ann is mannish)
"Obummer" (which, worse, is actually one of the better attempts at toying with the President's last name, as it doesn't take a few seconds to figure out who the poster actually means)

The name-calling just makes me think less of the poster, not of the target of the name-calling.

No offense intended; I'm just trying to clarify that your response to JaguarX's post misses the point he was trying to make.

I much rather prefer to call them "that 6 letter company that shall not be named" much like how other sports networks call ESPN "the 4 letter network"

[Illusionss]

I'm not really sure that calling NCSoft silly names is up there with calling Obama "Obummer" - but viewpoints will differ.

[As an aside, I would never call that thing "Stan Coulter." This would imply that it was male, when I am not even certain it is classifiable as human. Yes, here comes the ban-hammer but I dared to say it.]

Were I out on a public forum doing this, that would be one thing. But these are our forums. We are speaking in relative privacy here. And I still see not one single reason why that bunch deserves my, or anyone's, respect. Respect is earned.

[Segev]

I'm not really sure that calling NCSoft silly names is up there with calling Obama "Obummer" - but viewpoints will differ.

[As an aside, I would never call that thing "Stan Coulter." This would imply that it was male, when I am not even certain it is classifiable as human. Yes, here comes the ban-hammer but I dared to say it.]

Were I out on a public forum doing this, that would be one thing. But these are our forums. We are speaking in relative privacy here. And I still see not one single reason why that bunch deserves my, or anyone's, respect. Respect is earned.

a) I was careful not to specify which of those I found offensive on political grounds; I'd ask you to refrain from the same, lest somebody take umbrage (possibly me, if it is my politics that are being offended) and turn this into an off-topic political argument.

b) This has nothing to do with respect for them, but with showing ourselves not to be petulant.

c) This forum is not private. Anybody can read it. In fact, this forum comes up on google searches if one looks for relevant topics. Anything you say on the internet can and will be misquoted and used against you in the court of public opinion. So be very, very careful how much ammunition you give to people you believe to be dishonest, malevolent, vile goblinoids who would stoop to anything to do you harm in this realm.

[Menrva Channel]

So, going back to what Tony said about strings on everything--like a severance package. (We'll set aside that if you are job hunting your name showing up on Google complaining about your last employer [even if it /is/ well deserved] is not cool and can hurt your chances for a new job.) Anyway, my question is this: is there a time frame for these strings (like a statue of limitations or whatever the legal jargon is)? In relation to that, I guess what I'm wondering is this--if given the opportunity and that string goes away, do you think we'll ever know more gritty details behind the closing and others secrets of the game/company?

[dwturducken]

As for a statute of limitations, I guess that depends on when they retire and don't have to worry about another job interview.

As for stubbing toes, most of the pro-gun people on my Facebook wall tend to shoot their toes off, if they don't stub them on the way up. (I was gonna say, "shoot themselves in the foot," but that would have been too easy. )

[Segev]

So, going back to what Tony said about strings on everything--like a severance package. (We'll set aside that if you are job hunting your name showing up on Google complaining about your last employer [even if it /is/ well deserved] is not cool and can hurt your chances for a new job.) Anyway, my question is this: is there a time frame for these strings (like a statue of limitations or whatever the legal jargon is)? In relation to that, I guess what I'm wondering is this--if given the opportunity and that string goes away, do you think we'll ever know more gritty details behind the closing and others secrets of the game/company?

Many might have some clauses about a length of time afterwards, up to "forever," through which an NDA or the like would last. However, once the pay-out is fully made, it gets a lot harder to enforce. Law suits and civil charges can be brought up, but these need to be fought in court, and there's always a lawyer out there who can start to make "unconscionable contract" arguments or the like, which would start to weaken your hold with OTHER employees. So as a practical matter, once they've gotten their pay-out, the only real threat is that their new employer might not like seeing them betray their old one's confidences that way.

It's a question of how well they can keep their new employer from projecting a future wherein the new employer gets the same treatment as the old, and/or how well "anonymous tips" work. The latter are...less risky...when the payout period is over, as the money can't be held back anymore if discovered.

[NecrotechMaster]

i think its very interesting that all this coh stuff is appearing in the news, this article particularly seemed to be the most prominent

saying that there was deals in the works already and the fact that they were that close to actually getting free of ncsoft for good makes me dislike ncsoft even more

personally i dont think PS was asking for anything unreasonable enough for ncsoft to deny them their freedom then kick them all out on the street literally at the last minute

i do hope the continual media pressure will make ncsoft think twice about what they did and eventually choose to sell the IP so they can get all the negative press off of them

[Surelle]

You see here is the problem - Positron did not know that NCSoft was actually dealing in good faith. It may have been a simple - extend the talks until it is far too late for them to complain.

Become your enemy, what would you do if you were firing some people and shutting down an entire operation and all you had to do to maintain some level of goodwill and to slow down the ire of the consumers was to allow "talks" to go on that you had no intention of ever concluding.

Does this make them evil - or a clever business person?

Depends on which end of the phone you are on doesn't it? Sticking points occurred by Positron's own account - yet they did not know what they even were. Does that sound like an actual negotiation? It sounds more like a delay tactic - keep them off balance and hopeful all while you exit, quietly.

Tinfoil hat or likely possibility?  I'm leaning towards the latter.  Some good points are made here.

[MaidMercury]

So, going back to what Tony said about strings on everything--like a severance package. (We'll set aside that if you are job hunting your name showing up on Google complaining about your last employer [even if it /is/ well deserved] is not cool and can hurt your chances for a new job.) Anyway, my question is this: is there a time frame for these strings (like a statue of limitations or whatever the legal jargon is)? In relation to that, I guess what I'm wondering is this--if given the opportunity and that string goes away, do you think we'll ever know more gritty details behind the closing and others secrets of the game/company?

Easy fix.
Let US do the bad mouthing and B-slapping of NCsoft instead of any former employees.

[ukaserex]

Easy fix.
Let US do the bad mouthing and B-slapping of NCsoft instead of any former employees.

Why not just focus on the positive?

 I don't like or agree with NCSoft's decision - but it was a decision that was theirs to make.
We've already gotten the word out on their practices of closing games that many could argue is done prematurely. Beyond that, our focus should be on
1) helping one or both of the plan z attempts to get another game rolling again.
2) doing whatever we can to encourage the community to not lose heart and to hang in there. 

[JaguarX]

Why not just focus on the positive?

 I don't like or agree with NCSoft's decision - but it was a decision that was theirs to make.
We've already gotten the word out on their practices of closing games that many could argue is done prematurely. Beyond that, our focus should be on
1) helping one or both of the plan z attempts to get another game rolling again.
2) doing whatever we can to encourage the community to not lose heart and to hang in there.

hear hear.



 "NCSOFT who? Wasnt that some game company from back in the day? Oh right the ones that wouldn't sell and closed down COH. Well in a way I should thank them because without their crazy actions I would not have two wonderful super hero games to play right now and this money is what could of been theirs. In fact I think I'll drop a couple of hundred because I can today in game and give the stuff away to the newbies."-Saving that quote for when the Project Z are released. 

[Illusionss]

Why not just focus on the positive?

Because right now, the only positive thing I am seeing is forward progress on The Phoenix Project. [Well, and SEGS.... that is also good.] I'm certainly seeing no proof that the people running NCS are suddenly any brighter than your average bag of hammers, nor am I seeing evidence of a change of heart or a move to become more customer-friendly on their parts. So there's not too much to cheerlead about, in this regard.

As per my earlier remarks, I said "RELATIVELY private," not "private." Of course these are public forums. But there is a difference between what is said here, and what is appropriate to post on, for instance, third party websites. A lot more people are going to see the latter. I have never posted on one of those sites, other people are covering both the pros and the cons adequately.

[FatherXmas]

That's because they aren't going to change their minds.  Corporate culture dictates that there are no bad decisions made by committee and if there is overwhelming proof otherwise someone needs to be sacrificed.  Since nobody is willing to take one for the company the company simply won't even think about reconsidering.

Then we throw in the bug-a-boo politically incorrect discussion of Asian and Korean culture which turns the above statement up to 11.

Now if the story told by Posi is correct, that the deal fell through due to one signature and assuming NCSOFT was negotiating in good faith (I know that's a stretch for some to believe), that person or group (legal lets say) are still there.  What has changed other than the dissolution of the studio and loss of all the talent?  If it was a matter of price, well it's now worth less, a lot less.  So if money wasn't the issue then whatever reason they had for scuttling the deal is still alive and well.  So why would they change their minds? 

GW2 has whitewashed any losses from closing the game and losing it's income stream.  Closing the studio has removed an expense off of the NC Interactive books as well thus minimizing the loss even more.  Wildstar is going into closed beta so it's likely to be out for the holidays which will bring in a big chunk of change from the west for a 2nd straight year.  We've been swept under the rug or into the dust bin.  We aren't worth the effort.  We're the panhandler on the corner everyday that everyone ignores.  We are beneath their notice.

Sure we can make noise but noise here isn't going to work.  We need to make noise in Korea.  And if you can think of a good way to do that I'm all ears.

[JaguarX]

Because right now, the only positive thing I am seeing is forward progress on The Phoenix Project. [Well, and SEGS.... that is also good.] I'm certainly seeing no proof that the people running NCS are suddenly any brighter than your average bag of hammers, nor am I seeing evidence of a change of heart or a move to become more customer-friendly on their parts. So there's not too much to cheerlead about, in this regard.

As per my earlier remarks, I said "RELATIVELY private," not "private." Of course these are public forums. But there is a difference between what is said here, and what is appropriate to post on, for instance, third party websites. A lot more people are going to see the latter. I have never posted on one of those sites, other people are covering both the pros and the cons adequately.

But they probably wont change their minds. And we knew it would be a long shot, it aint too late though to keep trying but lets face it, it's about a s likely as getting 10 purple drops in a row. It's possible and it dont hurt going for it but not likely. Sometimes when a mind is made up a mind is made up just like most of us here made up our mind to stick the course and get in this thing for the long haul and nothing can change our mind. Sometimes the target is just as bullheaded except it's easier for them because all they have to do is nothing. So they wont change mind, that is their prerogative.

We have two games coming out, super hero MMOs, We dont even have to play any of their offerings (they may not miss it true but still one less.) ever again.
 *ahem* and not to mentionSEGS and probably other emulators (layman terms) out there for people to get their COX on.*Ahem* Ya'll just hear something? Anyways.

How many players ex-COXers and other game people is chugging along in their current offerings waiting for a new super hero game to jump ship to? How many people are not playing any mmo because nothing is good out there? How many people will play anything if it means flipping NCsoft the bird? Well then, we have just the thing for you called Hero&Villians and The Phoniex Project. Now players have two choices both made from the ashes and blood of the great COX mixed with the sweat blood and tears of the community.

"A Game of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the Earth."

Based on A.Lincoln famous speech.

[Sajaana]

The only thing that can help us, at this point, is for their lack of leadership to hurt them in the pocketbook.

Right now, they are ramping up the PR machine for Wildstar.  We have to counter with the question they don't want raised: "Who is to say that this won't be dead in a year?"

It's a valid question.  Especially since not one non-fantasy MMO has survived cancellation from NCsoft.

If the CoH closure makes launching another MMO problematic, we'll hurt them where it counts.  Will it help us?  Maybe yes and maybe no, but at least we'll help prevent another tragedy of suckers being fooled by hype.

[Tubbius]

How many players ex-COXers and other game people is chugging along in their current offerings waiting for a new super hero game to jump ship to?

Let's just say that since November 30, I've logged WAY too many hours in The Binding of Isaac and the Marvel Heroes MMO closed beta.  While these are both good, fun games in my perspective, they aren't City of Heroes.

Soldier on despite the fact we're pushing 4.5 months from the game's closure.  If another MMO (I can't recall the title, as it was one I didn't know of) can come back to life after being down for what I think was 8 years, surely City of Heroes can make a comeback sooner than that as long as NCSoft, potential buyers, AND THE FORMER PLAYERS are reasonable in their interactions.

[Illusionss]

Right now, they are ramping up the PR machine for Wildstar.  We have to counter with the question they don't want raised: "Who is to say that this won't be dead in a year?"

It's a valid question.  Especially since not one non-fantasy MMO has survived cancellation from NCsoft.

Worse, it might survive five years. 5 years of people honing their alts, building bases, falling in love with their characters and generally getting comfy over in Wildstar.

Then comes Lucy, I mean NCSoft and *YANK!!!* away with the football! Again! Damn straight players need to be warned.