Author Topic: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra  (Read 19709 times)

TonyV

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Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« on: April 10, 2013, 03:49:23 PM »
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 04:58:45 PM by TonyV »

UruzSix

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2013, 03:51:26 PM »
You forgot to mention it includes parts of an interview with Matt Miller.   ;)

Good stuff, some things answered, some new questions raised.

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2013, 03:56:21 PM »
Very interesting insight, and explains a lot of why NCSoft will not budge now.

Ironwolf

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2013, 04:00:23 PM »
I don't see anything on why they won't sell when even Matt cites he doesn't know what the sticking points were and he was on the team making the deal.

It is very hard to make a deal when you can't get the other side to even tell you why they are saying no.

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2013, 04:04:24 PM »
Dammit.  Blocked at work.   >:(
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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2013, 04:05:15 PM »
According to Posi and Hit Streak on Twitter, there's a lot they still can't say publicly.

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2013, 04:11:43 PM »
Well, that just refires my rage at NCsoft.

ONE SIGNATURE AWAY FROM KEEPING OUR GAME!

TWO WEEKS AWAY FROM I24!

So mad again.

LightBlack

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2013, 04:14:25 PM »
Hmm, I wonder if the desire to retain the two IP's in progress was one of those sticking points. It makes sense for both the studio and the publisher to want to retain IP's in-development  to get more revenue down the line (and I'm guessing they probably couldn't keep the full studio alive solely on the revenue brought in by CoX). Sad news either way ...

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2013, 04:17:36 PM »
THREE IP's that they'll probably never do anything with...

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2013, 04:29:45 PM »
Now I'm miserable all over again.

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2013, 04:39:47 PM »
I didn't think it was possible for me to be any more upset, disappointed, and angry with NCsoft, and yet here we are.

LightBlack

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2013, 04:47:20 PM »
While it is natural for us to be irked (or worse) by NCSoft here, you have to keep in mind that the sticking points may have been someone from PS's.

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2013, 04:48:41 PM »
dang man my ban for ncsoft just got bigger after reading that
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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2013, 04:53:09 PM »


I wish I could tell that guy that refused to sign where to stick that pen...

Quinch

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2013, 04:54:30 PM »
Well, this definitely piqued my curiosity - what was the dealbreaker, if the talks were going well? It seems odd that it would turn up right at the end of the negotiations - do we know when they were taking place, and if there's anything that we know or can find out that might have at NCsoft to suddenly make the entire negotiation moot?

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2013, 04:55:26 PM »
Everyone needs to go comment there, bring up Cryptic and all the community is focused on now.

Ironwolf

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2013, 04:57:51 PM »
Seconded, let us rally forth and not use ANY negative veiws on NCSoft let us press the POSITIVE side.

If they were that close lets try and get them over the hump!

TonyV

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2013, 04:59:18 PM »
Dammit.  Blocked at work.   >:(

I created a downloadable/viewable PDF of it, linked in the OP.  If you need me to e-mail you copy, let me know.

Segev

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2013, 04:59:52 PM »
While it is natural for us to be irked (or worse) by NCSoft here, you have to keep in mind that the sticking points may have been someone from PS's.
Very true.

The thing about sticking points is, they are not necessarily anybody's "fault." Sure, if we're talking about compromise between somebody who wants to murder 100 babies and somebody who wants to keep them all alive, the wannabe-murderer might be willing to "compromise" by killing only 50 of them, or even only 10! See how far he was willing to go to compromise? It's that guy who doesn't want them murdered who's refusing to compromise, who is stuck on the "sticking point."

That example is deliberately designed to make the dual point of how compromise can be a bad thing and how the one willing to do so is still the bad guy.

In other cases, it could be as simple as, "I cannot in good conscience agree to sell this car for less than $5,000. If I do, I will not be able to feed my children next month, and there are ways I can get at least that out of keeping it despite not wanting to use it anymore," vs. "I cannot buy this car for more than $500; it's in rough shape and has a limited but specific use to which only I could put it, but if I spend more than that I won't be able to afford the repairs and the gasoline to make it run."

Neither person is being unreasonable. There's just no common ground. The best course is, in fact, for the car's owner to keep it and milk the $5000 value out of those other avenues.

That doesn't mean that NCSoft or Paragon were being both reasonable, nor that the difference needed to be insurmountable. We simply don't know. But it's possible.

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2013, 05:01:02 PM »
I was so close to forget about all of this mess and now... Oh man, I still can't belive it...  >:(

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2013, 05:09:12 PM »
Does it make me a bad person that as I read that I had two thoughts?
  • At least 3 people had about 2 months to make a personal copy of all the game code, and
  • about 24 hours in advance 15-20 people had the same opportunity...

;)

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2013, 05:12:00 PM »
That seriously should have happened. Hell, didn't WoW's code get leaked? CoH is small potatoes compared to that. In all the chaos it probably would've been easy to get something copied and maybe wait a while before leaking it.

Is it illegal? Yeah, absolutely, but what NCsoft is doing by hoarding the IP and game refusing to even TALK to anyone about it, that's immoral.

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2013, 05:13:26 PM »
Much appreciate you bringing this article to our attention, TonyV.  And your response is spot on.  Hope and frustration continue to compete for so many of us on this issue.

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2013, 05:15:49 PM »
For those of us who believe that it's better for the team members to be able to support themselves and their families, I would argue that it'd be both illegal AND immoral to have copied the game code.

Is it disagreeable that NCSoft isn't releasing the code? It is to us. But they own it; what they do with it is their prerogative.

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2013, 05:16:14 PM »
What surprises me most is how close PS got to buying itself out. I'd always assumed they'd offered the buyout, not much happened then they were shut down.

To hear that there were lots of negotiations and it even appeared for a while to be going good for the game, then NCsoft just called everything off and scorched earth the place...that stings.

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2013, 05:18:08 PM »
For those of us who believe that it's better for the team members to be able to support themselves and their families, I would argue that it'd be both illegal AND immoral to have copied the game code.

Is it disagreeable that NCSoft isn't releasing the code? It is to us. But they own it; what they do with it is their prerogative.

Oh come on it's just musing about what might have been. The fact is NCsoft is being unreasonable with regard to how they're treating the IP. I'm not saying it condones theft, I'm not saying its right, I'm just saying I, personally, wouldn't disagree with the person doing it.

LightBlack

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2013, 05:19:32 PM »
Oh come on it's just musing about what might have been. The fact is NCsoft is being unreasonable with regard to how they're treating the IP. I'm not saying it condones theft, I'm not saying its right, I'm just saying I, personally, wouldn't disagree with the person doing it.

Unreasonable and immoral are two wholly different issues.

UruzSix

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2013, 05:19:55 PM »
Does it make me a bad person that as I read that I had two thoughts?
  • At least 3 people had about 2 months to make a personal copy of all the game code, and
  • about 24 hours in advance 15-20 people had the same opportunity...

My thought was what came as a complete surprise to us, wasn't a complete surprise at Paragon.

Ironwolf

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2013, 05:32:55 PM »
What came through to me LOUD and CLEAR was this was not just another job for these people.

They loved the game and saw us, the players as co-producers of a work of art. It was a community effort to raise the level of involvement of both devolpers and consumers to a level never seen before. They even gave us THEIR tools to make our own worlds. This cannot stand, we must work harder to show NCSoft that there is a way for them to pass on the legacy of this game to a new home.

JanessaVR

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2013, 05:54:18 PM »
Does it make me a bad person that as I read that I had two thoughts?
  • At least 3 people had about 2 months to make a personal copy of all the game code, and
  • about 24 hours in advance 15-20 people had the same opportunity...
;)
I'm too much of a pirate at heart to not have immediately zeroed in on those things myself.  That's exactly what I was thinking as soon as I came across those points...


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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2013, 05:57:11 PM »
Well, this definitely piqued my curiosity - what was the dealbreaker, if the talks were going well? It seems odd that it would turn up right at the end of the negotiations - do we know when they were taking place, and if there's anything that we know or can find out that might have at NCsoft to suddenly make the entire negotiation moot?

It is my conjecture that the "dealbreaker" was an edict from on high.  The person who had decided that COH Must Die caught wind of the negotiations, and simply brought the hammer down.  Thou shalt not make a deal.

How do you negotiate with someone who wants you dead, and has the power to kill you without repercussion?

Lightslinger

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2013, 06:00:51 PM »
Penny Arcade has picked up the story as well: http://penny-arcade.com/report/article/how-city-of-heroes-was-a-signature-away-from-being-saved-and-where-paragon

I'm really hoping this story gets even more traction and NCsoft is forced to yet again try to get out in front of this.

The timing of this for us couldn't be better. We have a high profile developer/CEO publicly talking about wanting CoH and now this? The question is how to leverage that fact with this publicity.

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #33 on: April 10, 2013, 06:03:53 PM »
Sounds like the planned end was around a few months at least prior to shutdown announcement. Seems as if the inner upper management knew about it, tried their hardest and more to prevent it but last minute things sunk. Why not tell the employees what is going on so when the announcement came it was not out of the blue? While it looked like the from the sound of it, the deal was in the bag what seemed to have been forgotten is that nothing is for sure until the last dotted line is signed. Sounds like everyone was caught by surprised because it was assumed that the deal would go through. Of course no one wants to be the negative guy but there should always be ready for worse. 
Well what is done is done but its good more details have surfaced to had a little more clarity to the situation. And it seemed those people were very passionate about their jobs. Unfortunately it seems that sometimes passion is not enough when the head guys make a decision.

It didn't seem the free to play was around long. Did ncsoft give it a fair shake to see if it was turning the game around? If what Matt states is actual truth then why not wait a bit? Sounds like ncsoft made their mind up long ago and didn't care about current. Assuming what Matt said us true about free to play model being more profitable.

Ironwolf

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #34 on: April 10, 2013, 06:33:11 PM »
I guess its time someone ran an advertisement or two at some of these websites...........

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2013, 07:54:12 PM »
Unreasonable and immoral are two wholly different issues.

I think you'll find that most people would find stealing code a lot better morally than firing 80 people with little to no warning and no other preventative actions taken. Its not like they are going to be losing money over it.
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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2013, 08:01:37 PM »
I think you'll find that most people would find stealing code a lot better morally than firing 80 people with little to no warning and no other preventative actions taken. Its not like they are going to be losing money over it.
Ditto that - see me not caring about the "immorality" of it at all.  I've already hoisted the Jolly Roger on this issue.  If I had somehow managed to get a copy of the game's source code, I wouldn't waste 10 seconds before uploading it to every major file-sharing site on the planet.

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #37 on: April 10, 2013, 08:01:54 PM »
I think you'll find that most people would find stealing code a lot better morally than firing 80 people with little to no warning and no other preventative actions taken. Its not like they are going to be losing money over it.
I would heartily disagree, but that's actually beside the point, since those suddenly-laid-off people all got laid off with positive references for future employment, 2 months' pay, and severance packages on top of that. They were not suddenly starving. Perhaps sad and stressed, but not hard-up financially. They had plenty of time to focus on getting a new job without having to alter their current lifestyles a whit, at least insofar as finances are concerned.

Sad? Sure. Immoral? Not by any stretch.

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #38 on: April 10, 2013, 08:02:11 PM »
My Scattered Thoughts (Just to show you i'm still lurking, and i've still got my torch even if you don't see me much):

I'm glad we're still making an impact.   I still have my Save City of Heroes Banner flying on my facebook.   90% of the pictures I ever uploaded were character profiles, explaining what was happening with CoH/V.   

This is a dicussion the gaming industry has to have with itself.   The 'always online' crap is very related.   And the first single-player/multi-player required login servers are getting ready to go down in 2014, iirc.

What I want to happen, globally, is to see the stuff no longer support by its companies be moved to true offline modes, or released into the wild.   The arguement I frequently see is nothing lasts forever, and its true but I can still watch Animaniacs on DVD, and I can still boot up Pools of Radiance in DoS Box.   Its mine, I paid for it.

Why is this different?   Just the perception gamers will put up with this crap?

I dunno, those are my scattered thoughts, take what you like and cast the rest aside.

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2013, 08:15:33 PM »
Seconded, let us rally forth and not use ANY negative veiws on NCSoft let us press the POSITIVE side.

If they were that close lets try and get them over the hump!

Yeah. Good idea. Calling them all types of names like ncstupid and etc don't help.

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #40 on: April 10, 2013, 09:38:25 PM »
Libertaing the code would just be us flying free, which is what NCsoft asked us to do.
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UruzSix

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2013, 10:10:41 PM »
Sounds like the planned end was around a few months at least prior to shutdown announcement. Seems as if the inner upper management knew about it, tried their hardest and more to prevent it but last minute things sunk. Why not tell the employees what is going on so when the announcement came it was not out of the blue? While it looked like the from the sound of it, the deal was in the bag what seemed to have been forgotten is that nothing is for sure until the last dotted line is signed. Sounds like everyone was caught by surprised because it was assumed that the deal would go through. Of course no one wants to be the negative guy but there should always be ready for worse. 
Well what is done is done but its good more details have surfaced to had a little more clarity to the situation. And it seemed those people were very passionate about their jobs. Unfortunately it seems that sometimes passion is not enough when the head guys make a decision.

Yuuuuuup.  :-\

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #42 on: April 10, 2013, 10:22:44 PM »
I guess its time someone ran an advertisement or two at some of these websites...........
Great idea!

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #43 on: April 10, 2013, 10:44:53 PM »
Good find, TonyV.  That's probably the best write up on what happened and efforts to save it that I've ever seen.  It would be very interesting to know what the sticking points were.  I'm wondering if the team from PS that did the negotiations has talked to NCsoft recently.  Or perhaps our team that is pitching the idea to buy should consider putting out a feeler or two with NCsoft.  It couldn't hurt and the worst thing they could do they've already done.
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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #44 on: April 10, 2013, 11:19:45 PM »
Thank you Tony for the article. It was very informative.... excuse me tho, I think I need to go cry again. x.x

I wonder if their secret projects were the sticking points... I know that came up a couple months back--that CoX could have been a causality in a war over something else. I had a friend too who gave a conspiracy theory. How much money would DC or Marvel give to close the game no questions asked? While I didn't take to the theory, it did cause me to ponder a moment.

Man... two weeks away from fixing my blasters and corruptors... I don't know what's worse--not having that awesome tier 9 nuke or playing it out like I did. (I unfortunately never got onto beta.) Of course... having the fix for the last three months would have bitten the dust in an entirely new way... but.. I'd have respected my mains for it. :( And only one signature! *sighs* So much sadness here.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 11:30:31 PM by Menrva Channel »

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #45 on: April 11, 2013, 01:28:03 PM »
I think you'll find that most people would find stealing code a lot better morally than firing 80 people with little to no warning and no other preventative actions taken. Its not like they are going to be losing money over it.

I think Segev has provided a good response to this already, but I want to add a few comments to that.

I currently work in an employment and labor law firm. As Segev has noted: (1) there was warning (as the article noted, most people knew what was happening before and were aware of the decision coming into the office the day it was made effective), (2) there was reasonable compensation (severance, references, etc.), and (3) there were preventative actions (which unfortunately for them and us, were ineffective). Within the eyes of the law, this is a pretty reasonable package for PS employees.

Moreover, under the WARN Act and its Californian counterpart (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worker_Adjustment_and_Retraining_Notification_Act), NCSoft and PS are either exempt from this and are not obligated to provide notification OR they did provide notification and thus aren't being sued over it currently.

So, returning to the issue of whether or not NCSoft's actions are moral or reasonable, the argument can be made (and the law would plausibly support this argument) that their decision is both moral and reasonable. Whether or not you personally find it to be so is a different issue.

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #46 on: April 11, 2013, 01:36:24 PM »
Moreover, under the WARN Act and its Californian counterpart, NCSoft and PS are either exempt from this and are not obligated to provide notification OR they did provide notification and thus aren't being sued over it currently.
As I understood it at the time, PS employees were no longer working after the announcement, but were still technically on the payroll until the day the servers went dark.  That would certainly qualify for providing notice in advance.
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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #47 on: April 11, 2013, 01:44:18 PM »
It bears mentioning that, as ruthless as they were to the studio itself and the players, they seemed to treat the devs well - I remember Zwilinger mention something about job fairs and generally helping them land on their feet? It doesn't excuse them from burying the game, but I guess it's a "pet the dog" kind of thing. Or maybe they didn't want the bad rap from the employees they just unceremoniously axed.

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #48 on: April 11, 2013, 01:55:40 PM »
At the risk of raising old specters, the almost loving care given to ease the employees themselves into the next stages of their careers with other employers, just like some of the more negative internal reactions hypothesized by some of our community, can in some ways be explained (whether accurately or not) by the concept of East Asian culture and power structures. Not kibun, exactly, but still, an employer in East Asia is, in many ways, still viewed in the same light that an ancient feudal lord would have been.

Even if an underling shows great disrespect, to the point that you can no longer countenance his House staying with yours, you, as lord, have a responsibility for all who owe you fealty. If you are forced to renounce them for anything short of an extremely public breach of etiquette so severe that you would have to call for their ritual suicide to cleanse the stain of dishonor, it is far better to construct a polite fiction that hides the reason you must get rid of them, for you and for them. You then treat them with almost paternal care, ensuring they find a way to "land on their feet," precisely because the polite society fiction that all will nod to in order to (publicly) ignore spectacle is that it's a regrettable necessity but you're parting on amiable terms and you, as lord, are still seeking to provide for your vassal even in the last days of his service to you.

No, I'm not saying this paints NCSoft back in a villainous light. Their actions in this one respect are laudable. They're also understandable through a lens of East Asian cultural expectations. It falls under one of their versions of "common decency."

JaguarX

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #49 on: April 11, 2013, 02:06:36 PM »
It bears mentioning that, as ruthless as they were to the studio itself and the players, they seemed to treat the devs well - I remember Zwilinger mention something about job fairs and generally helping them land on their feet? It doesn't excuse them from burying the game, but I guess it's a "pet the dog" kind of thing. Or maybe they didn't want the bad rap from the employees they just unceremoniously axed.

To tell you the truth I never heard of a way of being ceremoniously axed. Unless ya a big wig CEO that get a gold watch a car and the company jet use on weekends to go with the golden parachute when they get fired. For most people, which usually don't raise a single brow, is usually either mail or hand delivery of two week notice or called in the boss office saying ya done. No severence package no being on payroll for three months at home getting paid no job fairs, ya completely on your own. So in reality compared to how it mostly work the firing process of PS was pretty nice compared to how average joes get kicked to the curb for as little of a reason the board want to increase CEO christmas bonus but want to balance the pay roll. Or hell for no reason at all because they can.
I don't think they should but probably would have gotten a bad rap. This us 80 people. But how many did GM Chrysler Ford Apple Microsoft Best Buy and banks and etc let go? Yet no bad rap for them. Any many if those fired from said company had less warning whole department and in some cases whole stores and not a single dime gained from sitting at home nor any semblence of severence package.

Too much magnifying ncsoft actions but not bat eyelash or passing off as normal. Just things to consider ss the effort gains more publicity. 

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #50 on: April 11, 2013, 02:21:04 PM »
No, seriously. We need to not be treating companies as evil enemies. As a general rule, they aren't. They don't hate their employees. No company LIKES having to downsize, but sometimes it's necessary. Employees are hired because employers expect them to generate more revenue than it costs to employ them. If that turns out to be untrue, they have to let the employee go, and that stings because it means the employer is not making as much money as he could be. And that's leaving aside the fact that, believe it or not, businesses are run by human beings with hearts that beat in their chests and minds that do understand that real people depend on their jobs for their livelihoods. Sure, not every business manager is a good person, but far fewer than you probably imagine are not evil people, either. Just people trying to do their best to do their duty to their families, the employees they CAN keep on, and possibly their own bosses (who are, themselves, just people...often you or me, if you own any stocks at all).

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #51 on: April 11, 2013, 02:30:18 PM »
But there are also people fired due to the incompetence of their employers.

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #52 on: April 11, 2013, 02:51:35 PM »
Indeed. Generally, said employers also are "fired," either literally (because they have bosses who do so) or effectively (as their incompetence causes their business to fail).

It's sad for those who had no fault in it and would be unreasonable to necessarily blame them for not seeing how inept their boss was and moving somewhere else. If they were good enough to know how to run things, they probably would be starting their own business to do it.

But, such is life. It doesn't make anybody in particular evil to be incompetent, and, moreover, their companies failing is good in the long run, as the competent employees will find jobs at better-run businesses and ultimately do better, while the inept employers will be demoted by reality's exigencies to a role more suited to their skills.

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #53 on: April 11, 2013, 03:08:44 PM »
Indeed. Generally, said employers also are "fired," either literally (because they have bosses who do so) or effectively (as their incompetence causes their business to fail).

It's sad for those who had no fault in it and would be unreasonable to necessarily blame them for not seeing how inept their boss was and moving somewhere else. If they were good enough to know how to run things, they probably would be starting their own business to do it.

But, such is life. It doesn't make anybody in particular evil to be incompetent, and, moreover, their companies failing is good in the long run, as the competent employees will find jobs at better-run businesses and ultimately do better, while the inept employers will be demoted by reality's exigencies to a role more suited to their skills.

Well said.  I was constructing a post to say about the same thing....but decided against it since I was going, I think, a bit too far.  Again.  Well said!
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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #54 on: April 11, 2013, 04:02:27 PM »
For most people...no severence package no being on payroll for three months at home getting paid no job fairs, ya completely on your own.

For the record, once you reach a certain level (and developers would be in this group), it is extremely unusual to not get some kind of decent severance package if you're let go.  I'm not a CEO or vice president or executive, but I've gotten severance of at twelve weeks every time I've been let go since the first time I experienced that back in 1997, and all of my coworkers have gotten that when they've been let go.  I'm not saying that every company is like that, but I do think it's the rule, not the exception for it to happen, especially if you're let go due to layoffs.

Plus, it's not like NCsoft was just giving them money out of the kindness of their hearts.  There are strings attached to severance packages, such as agreeing not to talk to the press or disparaging the company.  Believe me, that was a factor in why there weren't a lot of people all over the gaming press sites spilling their guts after the studio shutdown.  (The other major factor being that if you're looking for a job, it kind of looks bad to prospective employers if your name shows up in Google searches in articles complaining publicly about your previous employer.)

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #55 on: April 11, 2013, 04:06:30 PM »
For the record, once you reach a certain level (and developers would be in this group), it is extremely unusual to not get some kind of decent severance package if you're let go.  I'm not a CEO or vice president or executive, but I've gotten severance of at twelve weeks every time I've been let go since the first time I experienced that back in 1997, and all of my coworkers have gotten that when they've been let go.  I'm not saying that every company is like that, but I do think it's the rule, not the exception for it to happen, especially if you're let go due to layoffs.

Plus, it's not like NCsoft was just giving them money out of the kindness of their hearts.  There are strings attached to severance packages, such as agreeing not to talk to the press or disparaging the company.  Believe me, that was a factor in why there weren't a lot of people all over the gaming press sites spilling their guts after the studio shutdown.  (The other major factor being that if you're looking for a job, it kind of looks bad to prospective employers if your name shows up in Google searches in articles complaining publicly about your previous employer.)

Yup but a lot of working stiffs are not at that level.
And absolutely correct about the public complaining part. I don't think all companies even give two week notices out the kindness of their hearts. In many places, its the law.

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #56 on: April 11, 2013, 06:32:53 PM »
Thanks for the link, Tony, and for continuing to represent our interests in the best ways possible.  Your posted comment makes the most of this opportunity to shine more light on the topic.

The fact that people are still talking about the closure -- combined with the fact that we still have a strong community with leadership producing such cogent responses -- is keeping my hopes alive.

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #57 on: April 11, 2013, 06:37:37 PM »
Looks like this write-up has been noticed by Stumbleupon, so yay for coverage!

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #58 on: April 11, 2013, 08:29:03 PM »
Keep putting the pressure on NCSoft folks, know that we don't go away.

I do my part on a local level. I educate consumers!

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #59 on: April 12, 2013, 02:24:35 PM »
Well, that just refires my rage at NCsoft.

ONE SIGNATURE AWAY FROM KEEPING OUR GAME!

TWO WEEKS AWAY FROM I24!

So mad again.

In spite of of our rage we are all still rats in a cage.

[But not NC$oft's cage. YOu can bet your sweet bippy on that one. Nope, this little rat has fled the building.]

So. Much. Hate. for that bunch. May they be treated just exactly like how they treat their customers.

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #60 on: April 12, 2013, 02:30:01 PM »
Yeah. Good idea. Calling them all types of names like ncstupid and etc don't help.

I am absolutely willing to back off of NCStupid, the day they prove to all of us that 1. they are not actually stupid and that 2. they are not withholding the game out of malice.

An annoucement of sale of CoX to a third party would be an excellent way to get that stigma off of themselves.

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #61 on: April 12, 2013, 03:11:07 PM »
While I'm not telling you to stop, Illusioness, I feel the need to point out that JaguarX's point isn't that NCSoft doesn't deserve the name-calling, but that he feels it diminishes your apparent "standing" by making you appear petulant.

I'm a staunch member of a particular political leaning, and I still wince every time I see those with whom I ostensibly agree on some forum or article's comments mutilating names in "witty" (but really just lame and possibly crude) ways.

Two examples from both sides of the aisle:

"Stan Coulter" (as an attempt to make the accusation that Ann is mannish)
"Obummer" (which, worse, is actually one of the better attempts at toying with the President's last name, as it doesn't take a few seconds to figure out who the poster actually means)

The name-calling just makes me think less of the poster, not of the target of the name-calling.

No offense intended; I'm just trying to clarify that your response to JaguarX's post misses the point he was trying to make.

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #62 on: April 12, 2013, 05:52:23 PM »
You see here is the problem - Positron did not know that NCSoft was actually dealing in good faith. It may have been a simple - extend the talks until it is far too late for them to complain.

Become your enemy, what would you do if you were firing some people and shutting down an entire operation and all you had to do to maintain some level of goodwill and to slow down the ire of the consumers was to allow "talks" to go on that you had no intention of ever concluding.

Does this make them evil - or a clever business person?

Depends on which end of the phone you are on doesn't it? Sticking points occurred by Positron's own account - yet they did not know what they even were. Does that sound like an actual negotiation? It sounds more like a delay tactic - keep them off balance and hopeful all while you exit, quietly.

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #63 on: April 12, 2013, 07:30:05 PM »
While I'm not telling you to stop, Illusioness, I feel the need to point out that JaguarX's point isn't that NCSoft doesn't deserve the name-calling, but that he feels it diminishes your apparent "standing" by making you appear petulant.

I'm a staunch member of a particular political leaning, and I still wince every time I see those with whom I ostensibly agree on some forum or article's comments mutilating names in "witty" (but really just lame and possibly crude) ways.

Two examples from both sides of the aisle:

"Stan Coulter" (as an attempt to make the accusation that Ann is mannish)
"Obummer" (which, worse, is actually one of the better attempts at toying with the President's last name, as it doesn't take a few seconds to figure out who the poster actually means)

The name-calling just makes me think less of the poster, not of the target of the name-calling.

No offense intended; I'm just trying to clarify that your response to JaguarX's post misses the point he was trying to make.

I much rather prefer to call them "that 6 letter company that shall not be named" much like how other sports networks call ESPN "the 4 letter network"

Illusionss

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #64 on: April 12, 2013, 09:13:02 PM »
I'm not really sure that calling NCSoft silly names is up there with calling Obama "Obummer" - but viewpoints will differ.

[As an aside, I would never call that thing "Stan Coulter." This would imply that it was male, when I am not even certain it is classifiable as human. Yes, here comes the ban-hammer but I dared to say it.]

Were I out on a public forum doing this, that would be one thing. But these are our forums. We are speaking in relative privacy here. And I still see not one single reason why that bunch deserves my, or anyone's, respect. Respect is earned.

Segev

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #65 on: April 12, 2013, 10:14:24 PM »
I'm not really sure that calling NCSoft silly names is up there with calling Obama "Obummer" - but viewpoints will differ.

[As an aside, I would never call that thing "Stan Coulter." This would imply that it was male, when I am not even certain it is classifiable as human. Yes, here comes the ban-hammer but I dared to say it.]

Were I out on a public forum doing this, that would be one thing. But these are our forums. We are speaking in relative privacy here. And I still see not one single reason why that bunch deserves my, or anyone's, respect. Respect is earned.
a) I was careful not to specify which of those I found offensive on political grounds; I'd ask you to refrain from the same, lest somebody take umbrage (possibly me, if it is my politics that are being offended) and turn this into an off-topic political argument.

b) This has nothing to do with respect for them, but with showing ourselves not to be petulant.

c) This forum is not private. Anybody can read it. In fact, this forum comes up on google searches if one looks for relevant topics. Anything you say on the internet can and will be misquoted and used against you in the court of public opinion. So be very, very careful how much ammunition you give to people you believe to be dishonest, malevolent, vile goblinoids who would stoop to anything to do you harm in this realm.

Menrva Channel

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #66 on: April 12, 2013, 10:43:49 PM »
So, going back to what Tony said about strings on everything--like a severance package. (We'll set aside that if you are job hunting your name showing up on Google complaining about your last employer [even if it /is/ well deserved] is not cool and can hurt your chances for a new job.) Anyway, my question is this: is there a time frame for these strings (like a statue of limitations or whatever the legal jargon is)? In relation to that, I guess what I'm wondering is this--if given the opportunity and that string goes away, do you think we'll ever know more gritty details behind the closing and others secrets of the game/company?

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #67 on: April 12, 2013, 11:29:44 PM »
As for a statute of limitations, I guess that depends on when they retire and don't have to worry about another job interview. ;)

As for stubbing toes, most of the pro-gun people on my Facebook wall tend to shoot their toes off, if they don't stub them on the way up. (I was gonna say, "shoot themselves in the foot," but that would have been too easy. :) )
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

Segev

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #68 on: April 13, 2013, 04:12:39 AM »
So, going back to what Tony said about strings on everything--like a severance package. (We'll set aside that if you are job hunting your name showing up on Google complaining about your last employer [even if it /is/ well deserved] is not cool and can hurt your chances for a new job.) Anyway, my question is this: is there a time frame for these strings (like a statue of limitations or whatever the legal jargon is)? In relation to that, I guess what I'm wondering is this--if given the opportunity and that string goes away, do you think we'll ever know more gritty details behind the closing and others secrets of the game/company?
Many might have some clauses about a length of time afterwards, up to "forever," through which an NDA or the like would last. However, once the pay-out is fully made, it gets a lot harder to enforce. Law suits and civil charges can be brought up, but these need to be fought in court, and there's always a lawyer out there who can start to make "unconscionable contract" arguments or the like, which would start to weaken your hold with OTHER employees. So as a practical matter, once they've gotten their pay-out, the only real threat is that their new employer might not like seeing them betray their old one's confidences that way.

It's a question of how well they can keep their new employer from projecting a future wherein the new employer gets the same treatment as the old, and/or how well "anonymous tips" work. The latter are...less risky...when the payout period is over, as the money can't be held back anymore if discovered.

NecrotechMaster

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #69 on: April 13, 2013, 08:05:35 AM »
i think its very interesting that all this coh stuff is appearing in the news, this article particularly seemed to be the most prominent

saying that there was deals in the works already and the fact that they were that close to actually getting free of ncsoft for good makes me dislike ncsoft even more

personally i dont think PS was asking for anything unreasonable enough for ncsoft to deny them their freedom then kick them all out on the street literally at the last minute

i do hope the continual media pressure will make ncsoft think twice about what they did and eventually choose to sell the IP so they can get all the negative press off of them

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #70 on: April 13, 2013, 02:50:05 PM »
You see here is the problem - Positron did not know that NCSoft was actually dealing in good faith. It may have been a simple - extend the talks until it is far too late for them to complain.

Become your enemy, what would you do if you were firing some people and shutting down an entire operation and all you had to do to maintain some level of goodwill and to slow down the ire of the consumers was to allow "talks" to go on that you had no intention of ever concluding.

Does this make them evil - or a clever business person?

Depends on which end of the phone you are on doesn't it? Sticking points occurred by Positron's own account - yet they did not know what they even were. Does that sound like an actual negotiation? It sounds more like a delay tactic - keep them off balance and hopeful all while you exit, quietly.

Tinfoil hat or likely possibility?  I'm leaning towards the latter.  Some good points are made here.

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #71 on: April 13, 2013, 02:50:36 PM »
So, going back to what Tony said about strings on everything--like a severance package. (We'll set aside that if you are job hunting your name showing up on Google complaining about your last employer [even if it /is/ well deserved] is not cool and can hurt your chances for a new job.) Anyway, my question is this: is there a time frame for these strings (like a statue of limitations or whatever the legal jargon is)? In relation to that, I guess what I'm wondering is this--if given the opportunity and that string goes away, do you think we'll ever know more gritty details behind the closing and others secrets of the game/company?

Easy fix.
Let US do the bad mouthing and B-slapping of NCsoft instead of any former employees. :roll:

ukaserex

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #72 on: April 13, 2013, 03:08:14 PM »
Easy fix.
Let US do the bad mouthing and B-slapping of NCsoft instead of any former employees. :roll:

Why not just focus on the positive?

 I don't like or agree with NCSoft's decision - but it was a decision that was theirs to make.
We've already gotten the word out on their practices of closing games that many could argue is done prematurely. Beyond that, our focus should be on
1) helping one or both of the plan z attempts to get another game rolling again.
2) doing whatever we can to encourage the community to not lose heart and to hang in there. 

Those who have no idea what they are doing genuinely have no idea that they don't know what they're doing. - John Cleese

JaguarX

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #73 on: April 13, 2013, 03:11:18 PM »
Why not just focus on the positive?

 I don't like or agree with NCSoft's decision - but it was a decision that was theirs to make.
We've already gotten the word out on their practices of closing games that many could argue is done prematurely. Beyond that, our focus should be on
1) helping one or both of the plan z attempts to get another game rolling again.
2) doing whatever we can to encourage the community to not lose heart and to hang in there.

hear hear.



 "NCSOFT who? Wasnt that some game company from back in the day? Oh right the ones that wouldn't sell and closed down COH. Well in a way I should thank them because without their crazy actions I would not have two wonderful super hero games to play right now and this money is what could of been theirs. In fact I think I'll drop a couple of hundred because I can today in game and give the stuff away to the newbies."-Saving that quote for when the Project Z are released. 


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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #74 on: April 13, 2013, 03:58:07 PM »
Quote
Why not just focus on the positive?

Because right now, the only positive thing I am seeing is forward progress on The Phoenix Project. [Well, and SEGS.... that is also good.] I'm certainly seeing no proof that the people running NCS are suddenly any brighter than your average bag of hammers, nor am I seeing evidence of a change of heart or a move to become more customer-friendly on their parts. So there's not too much to cheerlead about, in this regard.

As per my earlier remarks, I said "RELATIVELY private," not "private." Of course these are public forums. But there is a difference between what is said here, and what is appropriate to post on, for instance, third party websites. A lot more people are going to see the latter. I have never posted on one of those sites, other people are covering both the pros and the cons adequately.

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #75 on: April 13, 2013, 05:36:13 PM »
That's because they aren't going to change their minds.  Corporate culture dictates that there are no bad decisions made by committee and if there is overwhelming proof otherwise someone needs to be sacrificed.  Since nobody is willing to take one for the company the company simply won't even think about reconsidering.

Then we throw in the bug-a-boo politically incorrect discussion of Asian and Korean culture which turns the above statement up to 11.

Now if the story told by Posi is correct, that the deal fell through due to one signature and assuming NCSOFT was negotiating in good faith (I know that's a stretch for some to believe), that person or group (legal lets say) are still there.  What has changed other than the dissolution of the studio and loss of all the talent?  If it was a matter of price, well it's now worth less, a lot less.  So if money wasn't the issue then whatever reason they had for scuttling the deal is still alive and well.  So why would they change their minds? 

GW2 has whitewashed any losses from closing the game and losing it's income stream.  Closing the studio has removed an expense off of the NC Interactive books as well thus minimizing the loss even more.  Wildstar is going into closed beta so it's likely to be out for the holidays which will bring in a big chunk of change from the west for a 2nd straight year.  We've been swept under the rug or into the dust bin.  We aren't worth the effort.  We're the panhandler on the corner everyday that everyone ignores.  We are beneath their notice.

Sure we can make noise but noise here isn't going to work.  We need to make noise in Korea.  And if you can think of a good way to do that I'm all ears.
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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #76 on: April 13, 2013, 08:55:19 PM »
Because right now, the only positive thing I am seeing is forward progress on The Phoenix Project. [Well, and SEGS.... that is also good.] I'm certainly seeing no proof that the people running NCS are suddenly any brighter than your average bag of hammers, nor am I seeing evidence of a change of heart or a move to become more customer-friendly on their parts. So there's not too much to cheerlead about, in this regard.

As per my earlier remarks, I said "RELATIVELY private," not "private." Of course these are public forums. But there is a difference between what is said here, and what is appropriate to post on, for instance, third party websites. A lot more people are going to see the latter. I have never posted on one of those sites, other people are covering both the pros and the cons adequately.

But they probably wont change their minds. And we knew it would be a long shot, it aint too late though to keep trying but lets face it, it's about a s likely as getting 10 purple drops in a row. It's possible and it dont hurt going for it but not likely. Sometimes when a mind is made up a mind is made up just like most of us here made up our mind to stick the course and get in this thing for the long haul and nothing can change our mind. Sometimes the target is just as bullheaded except it's easier for them because all they have to do is nothing. So they wont change mind, that is their prerogative.

We have two games coming out, super hero MMOs, We dont even have to play any of their offerings (they may not miss it true but still one less.) ever again.
 *ahem* and not to mentionSEGS and probably other emulators (layman terms) out there for people to get their COX on.*Ahem* Ya'll just hear something? Anyways.

How many players ex-COXers and other game people is chugging along in their current offerings waiting for a new super hero game to jump ship to? How many people are not playing any mmo because nothing is good out there? How many people will play anything if it means flipping NCsoft the bird? Well then, we have just the thing for you called Hero&Villians and The Phoniex Project. Now players have two choices both made from the ashes and blood of the great COX mixed with the sweat blood and tears of the community.

"A Game of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the Earth."

Based on A.Lincoln famous speech.


Sajaana

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #77 on: April 14, 2013, 02:21:51 AM »
The only thing that can help us, at this point, is for their lack of leadership to hurt them in the pocketbook.

Right now, they are ramping up the PR machine for Wildstar.  We have to counter with the question they don't want raised: "Who is to say that this won't be dead in a year?"

It's a valid question.  Especially since not one non-fantasy MMO has survived cancellation from NCsoft.

If the CoH closure makes launching another MMO problematic, we'll hurt them where it counts.  Will it help us?  Maybe yes and maybe no, but at least we'll help prevent another tragedy of suckers being fooled by hype.

Tubbius

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #78 on: April 15, 2013, 03:43:39 AM »
How many players ex-COXers and other game people is chugging along in their current offerings waiting for a new super hero game to jump ship to?

Let's just say that since November 30, I've logged WAY too many hours in The Binding of Isaac and the Marvel Heroes MMO closed beta.  While these are both good, fun games in my perspective, they aren't City of Heroes.

Soldier on despite the fact we're pushing 4.5 months from the game's closure.  If another MMO (I can't recall the title, as it was one I didn't know of) can come back to life after being down for what I think was 8 years, surely City of Heroes can make a comeback sooner than that as long as NCSoft, potential buyers, AND THE FORMER PLAYERS are reasonable in their interactions.

Illusionss

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #79 on: April 15, 2013, 04:38:35 PM »
Right now, they are ramping up the PR machine for Wildstar.  We have to counter with the question they don't want raised: "Who is to say that this won't be dead in a year?"

It's a valid question.  Especially since not one non-fantasy MMO has survived cancellation from NCsoft.

Worse, it might survive five years. 5 years of people honing their alts, building bases, falling in love with their characters and generally getting comfy over in Wildstar.

Then comes Lucy, I mean NCSoft and *YANK!!!* away with the football! Again! Damn straight players need to be warned.

JaguarX

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #80 on: April 15, 2013, 04:50:58 PM »
Let's just say that since November 30, I've logged WAY too many hours in The Binding of Isaac and the Marvel Heroes MMO closed beta.  While these are both good, fun games in my perspective, they aren't City of Heroes.

Soldier on despite the fact we're pushing 4.5 months from the game's closure.  If another MMO (I can't recall the title, as it was one I didn't know of) can come back to life after being down for what I think was 8 years, surely City of Heroes can make a comeback sooner than that as long as NCSoft, potential buyers, AND THE FORMER PLAYERS are reasonable in their interactions.

Yep. Especially the part in all caps because that is the only part we actually have and can have control over as individuals.

dwturducken

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #81 on: April 16, 2013, 04:16:08 AM »
Then comes Lucy, I mean NCSoft and *YANK!!!* away with the football! Again! Damn straight players need to be warned.

OK, this! How did we not end up with a meme of this on the "We Need a Meme" thread!?

(I'm not calling for it, or anything, but this is a brilliant, evocative image!)

I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

Palladiamors

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #82 on: April 19, 2013, 04:02:15 PM »
You see here is the problem - Positron did not know that NCSoft was actually dealing in good faith. It may have been a simple - extend the talks until it is far too late for them to complain.

Become your enemy, what would you do if you were firing some people and shutting down an entire operation and all you had to do to maintain some level of goodwill and to slow down the ire of the consumers was to allow "talks" to go on that you had no intention of ever concluding.

Does this make them evil - or a clever business person?

Depends on which end of the phone you are on doesn't it? Sticking points occurred by Positron's own account - yet they did not know what they even were. Does that sound like an actual negotiation? It sounds more like a delay tactic - keep them off balance and hopeful all while you exit, quietly.

Now I haven't read it yet,  but the last bits important.  Did Posi not know what the sticking point was,  or is he not allowed to say?  Big difference there.  If he isn't allowed to say then not much to do about it.  If he doesn't KNOW,  then that's just NCsoft not playing ball.  You don't say "We don't like part of this,  but we aren't going to tell you.  End of negotiations."  You bring it up and see if it can be negotiated.

But as Xmas said,  this isn't going to change without some one's head on a chopping block.  NCsoft can't make themselves look bad by admitting they made a mistake.

Segev

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #83 on: April 19, 2013, 04:26:17 PM »
My reading of it is that the people involved in the negotiations knew what it was, but are not allowed to say.

dwturducken

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #84 on: April 19, 2013, 05:15:39 PM »
I'd have to sift back through the posts from VV in the weeks following the original announcement, but I thought Matt or Melissa or both were in the room with Brian and the other participants.
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

Quinch

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #85 on: April 19, 2013, 05:27:15 PM »
I'd have to sift back through the posts from VV in the weeks following the original announcement, but I thought Matt or Melissa or both were in the room with Brian and the other participants.

From what I can tell, Matt wasn't involved directly, but he was briefed on what was going on. Melissa, I don't know.

golemjoe

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Re: Huge new write-up of CoH/PS closure on Gamasutra
« Reply #86 on: April 21, 2013, 09:29:49 AM »


ALRIGHT, THAT'S IT!!!  WHICH OF YOU WAS MAILING CAKES TO THEM?!?!?

Like they had any incentive to deal with us after that..  they probably all went into a sugar coma for MONTHS!

Fans didn't stop there. Some community members put together a pitch package that they presented to Disney. Others
mailed cakes to NCsoft's Korean headquarters to protest the decision.


(Sorry if someone already beat me to this joke, I did try to check but didn't see the cakes vs capes error further in the thread.)