NC West FB Page

[JaguarX]

It may not be a shooting war, but I'm standing by my assertion that this is a war.

The Enemy:  NCSoft
Hostilities Began:  Aug 31st, 2012, when NCSoft announced the closure of City of Heroes (still without explanation).
Our Objective:  Seeing CoH restarted or sold to someone else who will.
Our Army:  Ex-CoH players at Titan Network (and any other sympathetic Ex-CoH players out there).  We're a rag-tag army to be sure, but I still count us as one.
Our De-Facto Generals:  TonyV and Victoria Victrix
Our Weapons:  Words, advertising, and for lack of a better term, political maneuvering - in short, this is a public relations war.
Upon Victory:  I cannot speak for others, but for myself, I'm totally prepared to cease any hostility against NCSoft if we get CoH back.  I might even check out some of their other games.  But there is simply no profit in continuing any hostilities with them once we have CoH back.  They give up CoH to someone who will re-start it, war's over.

This is how I perceive the situation, and will not be dissuaded otherwise.

 You make excellent point there.
And I know, you cant speak for everyone, but that is what I'm getting at. It's good you will cease fire, but what about your comrades? If I was fighting your army, and as leader, I said, hey you got me beat , I surrender. But still for the next year you see my army still killing and attacking your soldiers, perhaps you might think that A) I'm not the leader of my army after all. Or 2) It all was a ploy to stab you in the back so now it's no mercy and no more peace talks.

Even in public relation war, there has to be organization.

The thing I see is that we have leaders, we have plans, we have strategy, but there is no control of said army.

And really honestly, about 6 months later, how much closer are we to getting COX to sell or restarted than we were Aug. 31st? It don't seem much closer. Maybe about time to take a look at the strategy progress before 2-4 years go by and still at square one?

not to mention that some people miss the key word in public relation. Relation. Remember wont gather anything by jumping on anything that isnt with the view of our "Army". We'll garner more respect if we publicly embrace even the opposite view and let them have their view. When we do that, they might be more open to what we are saying. Because we dont have the muscle to strong arm them into the ranks. And whether we realize it or not, we are the ones that have to take the hill. Stay positive in the magazines articles. We want to be viewed as normal gamers that people can relate to. Not game player going nuts raging on you tube trying to sodomize himself with remote image over a game. No, we dont want that. Doing good so far on that front but after a while I seen movements degrade into to that after a while (1-2 years)

[JaguarX]

I thought that it was this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiBNV5EUo3s ?

*face to palm*

[dwturducken]

What were we talking about, again?

[Captain Electric]

Why would NCSoft consider what the fans would think if they decided to sell?  They already made it clear they didn't care what we thought when they first decided to close.

They'll sell the IP if it's worth it to them.  No other reason or consideration is needed.  Business is business.  Assuming NCSoft is / would take things personally doesn't fit.

I fully agree that this is how 99% of the world works out there and should work--and you're totally reasonable here. but NCSoft is just...they just don't...gah they just don't make sense sometimes. Even analysts on the other side of the pond share in our collective WTF, judging by South Korean media.

I'll admit, I think to myself, well if they're being offered ANYTHING in the $10 million neighborhood, heck even $6 million for an old game--well for goodness sakes, if profit is all it came down to for them, they'd have sold it by now, we'd be living in a different world. Because you can't convince me they EVER plan to do anything with an IP that has western ideologies and popular themes all over. I guarantee you, GW2/Wildstar was their last leap of faith in the NA market. Don't mention Blade & Soul, that's just a matter of shoehorning and localization. Have to remember, an MMO that pulls in 100,000 or 200,000 active, paying players is doing pretty well in NA/Europe. In the eastern markets, even crappy games pull in 1 million plus paying customers. So yeah, they're sitting on the IP, but it's not because they plan to use it, it's not because they fear NA competition, and it's NOT because they plan on getting tens of millions for it (the IP's value will decrease over time).

But yes, for a nice "song and dance" price, if I were one of them, I'd hand it over to Jack for $10 million or whatever, do some image repair and appear confident to the board ("waste not, want not.").

Unless I was a dick. Which is why, when people come up with these zany theories about malice toward Richard Garriott or Paragon Studios (for supposedly wanting to buy themselves and CoH out ala CCP/Simon & Schuster) or even toward us, sometimes I'm like... Yeah. Double-facepalm at me if you like. I wonder if somewhere in all of this, someone is just being a AAA dick.

[Golden Girl]

What were we talking about, again?

Painting a hospital sign on NCsoft's HQ, then ringing Calvin Scott.

[TimtheEnchanter]

Why would NCSoft consider what the fans would think if they decided to sell? They already made it clear they didn't care what we thought when they first decided to close.

They'll sell the IP if it's worth it to them.  No other reason or consideration is needed.  Business is business.  Assuming NCSoft is / would take things personally doesn't fit.

I fully agree that this is how 99% of the world works out there and should work

Sorry, Cap... that's way overboard. There is NO situation in the entire scope of human existence, where having a total lack of morals is how the world SHOULD work.

It may be how the world DOES work. But it's definitely not how it SHOULD.

[JaguarX]

I fully agree that this is how 99% of the world works out there and should work--and you're totally reasonable here. but NCSoft is just...they just don't...gah they just don't make sense sometimes. Even analysts on the other side of the pond share in our collective WTF, judging by South Korean media.

I'll admit, I think to myself, well if they're being offered ANYTHING in the $10 million neighborhood, heck even $6 million for an old game--well for goodness sakes, if profit is all it came down to for them, they'd have sold it by now, we'd be living in a different world. Because you can't convince me they EVER plan to do anything with an IP that has western ideologies and popular themes all over. I guarantee you, GW2/Wildstar was their last leap of faith in the NA market. Don't mention Blade & Soul, that's just a matter of shoehorning and localization. Have to remember, an MMO that pulls in 100,000 or 200,000 active, paying players is doing pretty well in NA/Europe. In the eastern markets, even crappy games pull in 1 million plus paying customers. So yeah, they're sitting on the IP, but it's not because they plan to use it, it's not because they fear NA competition, and it's NOT because they plan on getting tens of millions for it (the IP's value will decrease over time).

But yes, for a nice "song and dance" price, if I were one of them, I'd hand it over to Jack for $10 million or whatever, do some image repair and appear confident to the board ("waste not, want not.").

Unless I was a dick. Which is why, when people come up with these zany theories about malice toward Richard Garriott or Paragon Studios (for supposedly wanting to buy themselves and CoH out ala CCP/Simon & Schuster) or even toward us, sometimes I'm like... Yeah. Double-facepalm at me if you like. I wonder if somewhere in all of this, someone is just being a AAA dick.

yeah.


But usually the quickest way to piss off ya owner/boss is to say that you want to buy yourself out and become a competitor. If they dont mind, there is a slim chance they help you set up. But if it feels you stab in back after they created you, then dang right they are going to destroy you. It's like Buick going to GM headquarters and saying "Hey, GM, I know you saved us back in the early 1900s and thanks for that but now we want to be let go and become one of your competitors in addition to Ford, Toyota, Chrysler, Nissan and etc." Usually the boss wont smile, hand shake and give you tips. Usually they will mean mug and probably fire you if not right then and there.

Or rather its like going up to my boss (DoD) and saying I want to form my own army and country. Probably get arrested for treason.

[TimtheEnchanter]

It's odd for NCsoft to think that CoH would even be a competitive risk, going by their assessment of how much money the game was bringing them.

NCsoft has no interest in superheroes, so there is no game they will produce that would likely be in competition with it.

Than again, EA/Bioware wanted Star Wars Galaxies gone. They even saw THAT as a threat, even though SWG was 8 years old/had less than 50k subscribers at the time, and SWTOR was projected to have... 2 million?

[FatherXmas]

In the case of EVE, Simon & Schuster was getting out of the games/edutainment business to focus back on their core business.  They were looking for buyers when CCP said Yo!

Asheron's Call returned to Turbine when Microsoft's interest in publishing exclusive "Games for Windows" waned yet again.

NCSOFT isn't going out of the MMO business.  It's not losing interest in PC gaming over console.  MMOs are now a saturated genre with to many fingers in a nearly saturated market pie.  The idea had merit.  It did OK in the west for 8 years, not stellar but was reasonably successful.  So we're going to stick it on the shelf like some TV series with a cult following.  Maybe we'll reimage it sometime in the future or maybe not but it's ours and we aren't going to let someone else make money on it.

[Codewalker]

Unless I was a dick. Which is why, when people come up with these zany theories about malice toward Richard Garriott or Paragon Studios (for supposedly wanting to buy themselves and CoH out ala CCP/Simon & Schuster) or even toward us, sometimes I'm like... Yeah. Double-facepalm at me if you like. I wonder if somewhere in all of this, someone is just being a AAA dick.

Can't quote this hard enough.

Some people are of the belief the big corporations are driven solely by money -- that they always choose the logical course of action that will result in the greatest economic benefit for their shareholders. They believe that personal feelings of those in executive or management positions never enter into the equation, and that if they ever did, the board of directors would not only know about it, but remove the offending parties from their position. That any action taken by such a business must therefore by driven solely by economic motives.

Those people have never worked for a Fortune 500 company.

[Captain Electric]

<snip>

[JaguarX]

Can't quote this hard enough.

Some people are of the belief the big corporations are driven solely by money -- that they always choose the logical course of action that will result in the greatest economic benefit for their shareholders. They believe that personal feelings of those in executive or management positions never enter into the equation, and that if they ever did, the board of directors would not only know about it, but remove the offending parties from their position. That any action taken by such a business must therefore by driven solely by economic motives.

Those people have never worked for a Fortune 500 company.

Oh yeah lot of stuff beyond money is involved in business. Egos, butt hurt feelings, happiness, sadness, rage, curiosity, cluelessness, more ego, "the way it's been done for the past 50 years", "new is better new is better new is better" way of thinking, and etc. Just depends on the people, their way of how it's suppose to be done and policy they write that influence what happens. COX under a another company may have been still up or dead back in 2006. Or it may have never been made if under a company that dont believe anything outside a fantasy game is worth making. But in the end, none of them know us from the next guy and mere customers. Some companies pay attention to every single customer. While others ya aint nothing but a number and could give less than a hoot if ya fuss and cuss as long as they make money. Same with CEOs, Some are hands on in day to day operations, some dont give a flip as long as that sheet at the end of the quarter is in the black. While others still just collect paycheck run company into ground and move on to the next.

[TimtheEnchanter]

Some people are of the belief the big corporations are driven solely by money -- that they always choose the logical course of action that will result in the greatest economic benefit for their shareholders. They believe that personal feelings of those in executive or management positions never enter into the equation, and that if they ever did, the board of directors would not only know about it, but remove the offending parties from their position. That any action taken by such a business must therefore by driven solely by economic motives.

It's a belief, but it wasn't perpetrated by the public. It's exactly what all tycoons want us to think. It's their way of excusing themselves from being held responsible for any wrongdoing.

It's like being a raving lunatic while maintaining the illusion that you're an emotionless robot. You can't be suspected because emotions don't factor into your behavior. It's all part of that "It's just business" and "Business is business" smoke screen that hinders the public's ability to perceive you as immoral.

[JaguarX]

It's a belief, but it wasn't perpetrated by the public. It's exactly what all tycoons want us to think. It's their way of excusing themselves from being held responsible for any wrongdoing.

It's like being a homicidal maniac while maintaining the illusion that you're an emotionless robot. You can't be held accountable because emotions don't factor into your behavior. It's all part of that "It's just business" and "Business is business" smoke screen that hinders the public's ability to perceive you as immoral.

Well sometimes business is business. Sometimes it's the customer that get too attached at their own peril. Like for example did a business transaction with this guy about a car. While generally nice to each other, it doesnt mean just because he bought and I sold means we are best friends and will keep in touch. Quite frankly I dont care about him anymore or anyless than any other person I dont know. It's just business. He come with money, I sell, he leave and I go about my day.
Now the personal stuff that people add will vary. Some people I know keep it distant when it comes to business because when it's time to close it's easy. No hard feelings. But when you get personal with business, it can get messy, extremely messy.

Not saying this was the case for this case.


Then again how did it get this way? Well long time ago, instead of nipping it in the bud, citizens basically stop taking responsibility for themselves and basically handed their power over to corporations. We want corporations to take responsibility for everything but dont want to take responsibility for our own actions, knowledge, and not looking before leaping and being aware of the surroundings.

[Captain Electric]

I fully agree that this is how 99% of the world works out there and should work

Sorry, Cap... that's way overboard. There is NO situation in the entire scope of human existence, where having a total lack of morals is how the world SHOULD work.

It may be how the world DOES work. But it's definitely not how it SHOULD.

<*snip* everything I typed in my post above>

Businesses shouldn't operate on upper management ego, shouldn't hold our passion for the service against us, and selling something for what it's worth is not a cr---

You know Tim, I think you misunderstand my position, and for that matter the position I've always held here.

[TimtheEnchanter]

You know Tim, I think you misunderstand my position, and for that matter the position I've always held here.

Lol, yeah... I think I did.

[TimtheEnchanter]

Then again how did it get this way? Well long time ago, instead of nipping it in the bud, citizens basically stop taking responsibility for themselves and basically handed their power over to corporations. We want corporations to take responsibility for everything but dont want to take responsibility for our own actions, knowledge, and not looking before leaping and being aware of the surroundings.

Well I can agree with some of that. I don't want to get into a big discussion about it. I already made an enormous post about this issue and how I feel it evolved, in the housing bubble thread.

I must say though, I've never understood how any individual can be expected to be capable of navigating the marketing labyrinth. Billions upon billions of dollars, and 'who the heck knows' how many man-hours of psychiatric research by geniuses, have been put into forming strategies for manipulating us without us even realizing we're manipulated.

Who would say it's John Doe's fault that he can't outfox an army comprised of the smartest foxes in the world?

Here's one example I just turned up on a quick search. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-mindful-self-express/201203/ten-ways-your-local-grocery-store-hijacks-your-brain

Could we become proficient enough to learn how to deflect all these manipulative tricks that are being used on us in every aspect of our lives? Probably. But it would take so much work that we would have no time for anything else, including the essentials.

The human mind has been fully hacked by marketers, but unlike we do with computers, we can't install a firewall and be done with it.

[JaguarX]

Well I can agree with some of that. I don't want to get into a big discussion about it. I already made an enormous post about this issue and how I feel it evolved, in the housing bubble thread.

I must say though, I've never understood how any individual can be expected to be capable of navigating the marketing labyrinth. Billions upon billions of dollars, and 'who the heck knows' how many man-hours of psychiatric research by geniuses, have been put into forming strategies for manipulating us without us even realizing we're manipulated.

Who would say it's John Doe's fault that he can't outfox an army comprised of the smartest foxes in the world?

Here's one example I just turned up on a quick search. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-mindful-self-express/201203/ten-ways-your-local-grocery-store-hijacks-your-brain

Could we become proficient enough to learn how to deflect all these manipulative tricks that are being used on us in every aspect of our lives? Probably. But it would take so much work that we would have no time for anything else, including the essentials.

The human mind has been fully hacked by marketers, but unlike we do with computers, we can't install a firewall and be done with it.

Yeah we missed the boat on that one. Now, the problem may never be solved. But that doesnt mean we (as consumers) cant start. If we continue to sift responsibility of our own actions onto everything but ourselves, the ones that actually have control, then sure as hell is hot, corporations will use that to take control and tell you what to eat what to buy what to wear what phone to use when to use it and etc. And it seems people are just sitting around just letting them without so much as a question. But at the same time we cant expect them to take responsibility if we arent even willing to take responsibility for even the simplest action of deciding on what shoes to buy. Instead of saying "I decided to buy these shoes" it's "Nike made me buy these shoes." If Nike is responsible for people, then should they have the right to say, put you on house arrest so that you can pay a few bills instead of spending bill money on shoes? And then for saving you require that you buy ten shoes by next month? It's their responsibility it seems why not? No responsibility no rights. If we want corporations to be responsible for our lives, they will, but that is worse than selling ya soul to the devil and at this point it seems like a lot of society is already signing the paperwork over to them.

[TimtheEnchanter]

Yeah we missed the boat on that one. Now, the problem may never be solved. But that doesnt mean we (as consumers) cant start. If we continue to sift responsibility of our own actions onto everything but ourselves, the ones that actually have control, then sure as hell is hot, corporations will use that to take control and tell you what to eat what to buy what to wear what phone to use when to use it and etc. And it seems people are just sitting around just letting them without so much as a question. But at the same time we cant expect them to take responsibility if we arent even willing to take responsibility for even the simplest action of deciding on what shoes to buy. Instead of saying "I decided to buy these shoes" it's "Nike made me buy these shoes." If Nike is responsible for people, then should they have the right to say, put you on house arrest so that you can pay a few bills instead of spending bill money on shoes? And then for saving you require that you buy ten shoes by next month? It's their responsibility it seems why not? No responsibility no rights. If we want corporations to be responsible for our lives, they will, but that is worse than selling ya soul to the devil and at this point it seems like a lot of society is already signing the paperwork over to them.

Yeah, I wouldn't have a clue of where to start on that though.

It sort of reminds me of what goes through my head every time someone suggests that we get rid of lobbyists. All that would happen is the lobbyists would lobby to prevent the banning of lobbying.

Diverting the public is a similar dilemma. Generally if you try to stop a stampede, you simply get run over. And for this little minority of us who care about the well-being of the greater whole, wouldn't we essentially need to have more advertising power than the advertisers, thereby requiring us to rob the people just like the status quo does so we can get the resources to accomplish it?

This is probably why most significant changes to the world end up happening only after a lot of bloodshed. You can't get people to stop drinking poison by giving them more poison. But the moment you try circumventing everything to halt the production of poison, you've entered into the realm of illegality, and all Hell would break loose.

[JaguarX]

Yeah, I wouldn't have a clue of where to start on that though.

It sort of reminds me of what goes through my head every time someone suggests that we get rid of lobbyists. All that would happen is the lobbyists would lobby to prevent the banning of lobbying.

Diverting the public is a similar dilemma. Generally if you try to stop a stampede, you simply get run over. And for this little minority of us who care about the well-being of the greater whole, wouldn't we essentially need to have more advertising power than the advertisers, thereby requiring us to rob the people just like the status quo does so we can get the resources to accomplish it?

This is probably why most significant changes to the world end up happening only after a lot of bloodshed. You can't get people to stop drinking poison by giving them more poison. But the moment you try circumventing everything to halt the production of poison, you've entered into the realm of illegality, and all Hell would break loose.

yeah.
 lobbying, same concept of who allowed these yokles to take over and thought it was a good idea (probably sounded like good idea way back in the day) but now they are in, it's like trying to get rid of a cockroach infestation.