NC West FB Page

[Tanklet]

So, NC$oft West has decided to take action of their own, on their NA/EU Facebook page. Anyone posting anything about CoH gets ultimately banned & their comment removed.

Now, we're not talking flame war comments. We're talking about peaceful protests, simply stating that the still ever present CoH community will not patron NC$oft until they release/sell the IP. As it stands, they've disabled timeline posting, so commenting (while they allow it) is only on whatever they post (which hasn't been much since the shut down - I say GO US).

Take a look at their Wildstar post. You'll see somewhere along the lines of 120 comments, but only half of them are actually there because the rest were removed. There are a handful there now, but I don't expect those to last the day.

Why am I posting this? Not to incite a riot (plsz don't think that) ... What I'd like to know is what, if any action, we can take to continue to make our voices heard on that page, without violating Facebook's EULA and without turning our prominent movement into something bad.

If this thread is inappropriate, no worries, please remove it & let me know. I just like that our voices continue to be heard, and I see it as unfair that potential future victims of NC$oft are possibly being kept from knowing the true ramifications of putting any time or money into anything this company markets.

NC had their chance to be reasonable. They should suffer the consequences of their decision to do otherwise.

Thoughts?

PS - the NC East page is quite open and active with our posters. I say GO US!

[Captain Electric]

NC had their chance to be reasonable. They should suffer the consequences of their decision to do otherwise.

Thoughts?

PS - the NC East page is quite open and active with our posters. I say GO US!

[Illusionss]

Thoughts?

My thoughts are of COURSE they're pulling the comments down: Honey Badger just don't care. They are the boss and you, puny human worm of a player, had best not forget it.

Well, this is the 21st century and they are the ones who had best get used to the plebes speaking their minds. Stalin-era Russia is OVER. I'm not on FB, but just sayin'. If only deleting comments would change people's minds! Hahaha. Its pretty funny when you think about it.

[Lightslinger]

Have comments been disabled or do they just disable them for the offenders? Because I'm pretty sure I got banned, I could see posts but not post on anything at their page.

Once I discovered that I unliked them, I had only liked them to begin with to pester them with CoH stuff

[JaguarX]

So, NC$oft West has decided to take action of their own, on their NA/EU Facebook page. Anyone posting anything about CoH gets ultimately banned & their comment removed.

Now, we're not talking flame war comments. We're talking about peaceful protests, simply stating that the still ever present CoH community will not patron NC$oft until they release/sell the IP. As it stands, they've disabled timeline posting, so commenting (while they allow it) is only on whatever they post (which hasn't been much since the shut down - I say GO US).

Take a look at their Wildstar post. You'll see somewhere along the lines of 120 comments, but only half of them are actually there because the rest were removed. There are a handful there now, but I don't expect those to last the day.

Why am I posting this? Not to incite a riot (plsz don't think that) ... What I'd like to know is what, if any action, we can take to continue to make our voices heard on that page, without violating Facebook's EULA and without turning our prominent movement into something bad.

If this thread is inappropriate, no worries, please remove it & let me know. I just like that our voices continue to be heard, and I see it as unfair that potential future victims of NC$oft are possibly being kept from knowing the true ramifications of putting any time or money into anything this company markets.

NC had their chance to be reasonable. They should suffer the consequences of their decision to do otherwise.

Thoughts?

PS - the NC East page is quite open and active with our posters. I say GO US!

Well it's like any other facebook in a way. If someone post something I don't like or not wanted on my page even if I agree with them or feel their pain, I remove it.

Do we have our own facebook page? If not is there plans to create one?

[FatherXmas]

1st, I suspect former CoH players posted enough to drive other poster's comments off the page.

2nd, that page is a front to communicate with their customers.  It's a form of advertising in the social media age.  So called peaceful comments can be seen as the equivalent of defacing (to strong), modifying billboards to put out our message.  So they are forced to go out and scrub off our "graffiti".

3rd, we aren't their customers any more and therefore we are essentially intruders there.  Digital trespassers so to speak.  Would a restaurant or bar accept a peaceful protest where people occupy all the seats/tables and just order water?  This isn't comment bombing on a neutral site, this is comment bombing on their site.

The one negative aspect for the movement is we can start to look more and more like crackpots protesting like ... fluoride in water or owning pets (we can't own animals, we are merely caretakers) if we post bomb every message board or NCSOFT site that allows open comments about how we aren't going to buy their product anymore.

I think the notion of a FB page in protest is appropriate.  It would be like putting up our own billboard next to theirs or by a house across the street and paint it in rainbow colors.

However there may be a problem using any artwork, icons, possibly even screenshots from the game since legally they still all belong to NCSOFT.  If they want to get nasty about it then it could get messy, not just there but even here.

[dwturducken]

3rd, we aren't their customers any more and therefore we are essentially intruders there.  Digital trespassers so to speak.  Would a restaurant or bar accept a peaceful protest where people occupy all the seats/tables and just order water?  This isn't comment bombing on a neutral site, this is comment bombing on their site.

Devil's advocate hat, for a minute: There are members of this community who still play NCSoft games and are still, therefore, customers. Those individuals are not intruders. They are paying customers. Would your "restaurant" accept a comment from a paying customer lamenting the loss of a favorite menu item?

As to whether there would be problems using artwork from the game, has anyone run afoul of NCSoft over fansites and fanpages still up? I'm asking honestly, here. I know that "New City of Heroes" one was taken down, but I also know they were reported for attempting to run a scam.

[HarvesterOfEyes]

I say make your protest page, use their art and make them be the bad guy by forcing you to take it down. That's pitch-perfect Gandhi right there.

[dwturducken]

If they ding you for using copyrighted material, do you then replace it with a "banner" stating "image removed at the request/insistence of the copyright holder"?

[JaguarX]

Devil's advocate hat, for a minute: There are members of this community who still play NCSoft games and are still, therefore, customers. Those individuals are not intruders. They are paying customers. Would your "restaurant" accept a comment from a paying customer lamenting the loss of a favorite menu item?

As to whether there would be problems using artwork from the game, has anyone run afoul of NCSoft over fansites and fanpages still up? I'm asking honestly, here. I know that "New City of Heroes" one was taken down, but I also know they were reported for attempting to run a scam.

I don't think they have yet but I think they could if the chose to. If not bothering them or antagonizing them they probably eont guve s crap. But then using their work in a work that is designed to steer their customers away on the biggest social network, then they might not take too kindly to that. Even facebook have a policy against using others works. It don't even have to be ncsoft to report it but can be a random person that may not care about us.
 

[JaguarX]

I say make your protest page, use their art and make them be the bad guy by forcing you to take it down. That's pitch-perfect Gandhi right there.

Not sure how it makes someone or something a villian for protecting their copyrighted works. How about we just create our own?

[Codewalker]

I know that "New City of Heroes" one was taken down, but I also know they were reported for attempting to run a scam.

The website was, but the Facebook page wasn't.

The "main" site could have just as easily been removed for lack of payment as any other reason.

[HarvesterOfEyes]

Not sure how it makes someone or something a villian for protecting their copyrighted works. How about we just create our own?

Anyone upholding standards or laws in modern society is the bad guy.

Gandhi understood this perfectly.

[JaguarX]

Anyone upholding standards or laws in modern society is the bad guy.

Gandhi understood this perfectly.

Hm.

[FatherXmas]

Devil's advocate hat, for a minute: There are members of this community who still play NCSoft games and are still, therefore, customers. Those individuals are not intruders. They are paying customers. Would your "restaurant" accept a comment from a paying customer lamenting the loss of a favorite menu item?

As to whether there would be problems using artwork from the game, has anyone run afoul of NCSoft over fansites and fanpages still up? I'm asking honestly, here. I know that "New City of Heroes" one was taken down, but I also know they were reported for attempting to run a scam.

No, but the OP's comment wasn't about poor service on a comment card that's only seen by management.  It's making a scene and drawing attention of other customers about it.

[JaguarX]

No, but the OP's comment wasn't about poor service on a comment card that's only seen by management.  It's making a scene and drawing attention of other customers about it.

yeah causing a scene in a restaurant usually result in ya removal from said establishment and probably not welcomed back.

[The Fifth Horseman]

The website was, but the Facebook page wasn't.

Funny. When I tried to check on it a couple days ago, it was inaccessible and apparently scheduled for deletion.

[Steele Magnolia]

I've already been banned from pretty much everything NCSoft.

[Tanklet]

Have comments been disabled or do they just disable them for the offenders? Because I'm pretty sure I got banned, I could see posts but not post on anything at their page.

Once I discovered that I unliked them, I had only liked them to begin with to pester them with CoH stuff

Nope, comments aren't disabled across the board. Only for the offender.

All in all just curious if there was a way around that. I think it'd be nice to see just how long they can keep that up. At what point do they possibly realize that it's not worth the effort and either a) leave the comments up there or b) discontinue the page.

[JaguarX]

Nope, comments aren't disabled across the board. Only for the offender.

All in all just curious if there was a way around that. I think it'd be nice to see just how long they can keep that up. At what point do they possibly realize that it's not worth the effort and either a) leave the comments up there or b) discontinue the page.

Depends. They may tire but its probably someone's job to maintain that page. The other side at least with personal pages people got banned permanent rim facebook for doing stuff like that. It may or may not work same way for pages of that type.

[Tanklet]

Depends. They may tire but its probably someone's job to maintain that page. The other side at least with personal pages people got banned permanent rim facebook for doing stuff like that. It may or may not work same way for pages of that type.

Agreed - hence my OP caveat of not wanting to violate FB EULA.

There may be those that don't agree with consistent posting on NC's FB pages, but frankly, IMO completely silent protesting just isn't protesting at all.

[JaguarX]

Agreed - hence my OP caveat of not wanting to violate FB EULA.

There may be those that don't agree with consistent posting on NC's FB pages, but frankly, IMO completely silent protesting just isn't protesting at all.

There is a very thin line between protest and rioting.

[Tanklet]

There is a very thin line between protest and rioting.

Granted - and, from what I've seen, that line's been towed well.
So ....

[JaguarX]

Granted - and, from what I've seen, that line's been towed well.
So ....

Yup.

[Beltor]

This and recent (possibly manufactured) rumors about the Paragon shutdown being the fault of PS and not NC$oft, as well as several other recent events with NC and Cryptic sounds like setting up for a major change to NCWest. I recall hearing that NC$oft was going to change NCWest and make it a separate and independent company for their western franchises. This could be just part of a move to get rid of COH once and for all so they can focus on other things without being bothered by the community (not just Titans). This action is obviously not a permanent or lasting solution to their PR nightmare. Expect something more to happen. I'm just not sure what.

[FatherXmas]

This and recent (possibly manufactured) rumors about the Paragon shutdown being the fault of PS and not NC$oft, as well as several other recent events with NC and Cryptic sounds like setting up for a major change to NCWest. I recall hearing that NC$oft was going to change NCWest and make it a separate and independent company for their western franchises. This could be just part of a move to get rid of COH once and for all so they can focus on other things without being bothered by the community (not just Titans). This action is obviously not a permanent or lasting solution to their PR nightmare. Expect something more to happen. I'm just not sure what.

Well according to a Korean gamer site, the holding company went in full effect Monday at the start of this quarter.  And if you believe what Google Translate spat out, the wife of one of the VPs is in charge of it.

http://news.mt.co.kr/mtview.php?no=2013040115334676490&type=2&sec=tech  (it's in Korean)

[Lucretia MacEvil]

3rd, we aren't their customers any more   

Not on our terms.
I, for one, was willing to give them money as long as I could play CoX.
They ruined that, and now I'm irritated at them, so I'm gonna let them know it.

[JaguarX]

Not on our terms.
I, for one, was willing to give them money as long as I could play CoX.
They ruined that, and now I'm irritated at them, so I'm gonna let them know it.

out of sheer morbid curiosity, after you let them know it, then what?

[TimtheEnchanter]

Hey, if riot groups can run around and smash windows over things that happened more than a decade ago, I think what we're doing is pretty fricking harmless.

Besides, if NCsoft is concerned about the survivability of a game because of rants on a facebook page, they've got much bigger things to worry about than us.

[FatherXmas]

Hey, if riot groups can run around and smash windows over things that happened more than a decade ago, I think what we're doing is pretty fricking harmless.

Besides, if NCsoft is concerned about the survivability of a game because of rants on a facebook page, they've got much bigger things to worry about than us.

Not A Facebook page, one of their Facebook pages.  Big difference.

Do you think Coke's page allows posts denouncing it for Pepsi?  Or Apple allowing posts about working conditions in China on their page?  No difference. 

Nothing to see here, move along.

[P51mus]

Not A Facebook page, one of their Facebook pages.  Big difference.

Do you think Coke's page allows posts denouncing it for Pepsi?  Or Apple allowing posts about working conditions in China on their page?  No difference. 

Nothing to see here, move along.

No, but restaurants get angry comments from customers on their facebook pages when they do something like, say, fire a server for posting a picture of a horrible comment someone that refuses to tip put on a receipt.  And I haven't heard of those restaurants banning anyone from their pages from that (although they might and I haven't heard about it, but I think the internet would've gotten even more angry over those incidents if they did).

We're not fans of another product disparaging them on their page over fanboy stuff, it's calling them out for something horrible they've done.

[Tanklet]

Not on our terms.
I, for one, was willing to give them money as long as I could play CoX.
They ruined that, and now I'm irritated at them, so I'm gonna let them know it.

qft

[Tanklet]

out of sheer morbid curiosity, after you let them know it, then what?

I, for one, keep letting them know it.

Like once a week, maybe more, maybe less, depending on how I feel that day.

[Tanklet]

No, but restaurants get angry comments from customers on their facebook pages when they do something like, say, fire a server for posting a picture of a horrible comment someone that refuses to tip put on a receipt.  And I haven't heard of those restaurants banning anyone from their pages from that (although they might and I haven't heard about it, but I think the internet would've gotten even more angry over those incidents if they did).

We're not fans of another product disparaging them on their page over fanboy stuff, it's calling them out for something horrible they've done.

+1

[Taceus Jiwede]

Anyone upholding standards or laws in modern society is the bad guy.

Gandhi understood this perfectly.

Gandhi understood that people who uphold unjust laws are part of the problem.  There is a very big difference between that and what you put.

Copyright laws are around to protect peoples intellectual property, if people didn't steal other peoples property there would be no need for copyright laws.

And while some laws are unjust and stupid that doesn't mean all laws are and should be ignored.  Gandhi wouldn't want people breaking the law against murder.

OP:  I am surprised it took them as long as it did to be honest.  Most companies would do that.  If we started comment bombing sears they would ban our comments as well.  At the very least it means people are being heard.  And I suppose it's a good thing that a NCSoft related site did it and not some website that is impartial.

[The Fifth Horseman]

The copyright laws have also been pushed to such an extreme extent that they're not really protecting the interests of authors anymore, but rather of corporations who have publishing licenses for their works.

[Kistulot]

Not to mention copywrite was to protect an author so their work wouldn't be turned around and used against them.

To encourage innovation.

Does someones great grandchildren really need to benefit from royalties? I'm not being cold in this. The money one makes from something truly creative can be used to build a great foundation for a family.

"Happy birthday" still getting royalty checks is bloody reduckulous.

[JaguarX]

I, for one, keep letting them know it.

Like once a week, maybe more, maybe less, depending on how I feel that day.

Until exactly what is accomplished? Or rather what would you like to see accomplished? What is the goal?

Now now before the U word is started to be tossed around I'm nit asking looking for trouble. I just have a haunch.

[Lightslinger]

Until exactly what is accomplished? Or rather what would you like to see accomplished? What is the goal?

Now now before the U word is started to be tossed around I'm nit asking looking for trouble. I just have a haunch.

While I did this only a little bit back in the day, I think there's nothing wrong with anyone doing this so long as they are being respectful. At the very least they're keeping our community and CoH in their heads. What does that accomplish? Who knows, but it may one day be enough to get a thought stirring in the right person's head to make something good happen.

I've read a lot of articles about how social media has tipped the scales toward consumers in the past few years. Stories about people getting screwed by a company, taking their fight to twitter and the company immediately responding and righting the situation. When a company makes a page on a social media they're saying "We're here to interact with people." Thing is, as opposed to a commercial we all watch, the interaction goes two ways, giving consumers the power to interact with the company.

No company wants their name trending in a bad way on twitter, and they don't want to think whenever something is put on facebook they'll be reminded of a past wrong. If nothing else, we're making NCsoft SERIOUSLY reconsider closing any future games because of all the problems closing CoH caused and is still causing for them.

I think anyone doing this should be professional and understand what they post will reflect on our community. Outside of that condition I say go ahead, let 'em know we're still here.

[JaguarX]

While I did this only a little bit back in the day, I think there's nothing wrong with anyone doing this so long as they are being respectful. At the very least they're keeping our community and CoH in their heads. What does that accomplish? Who knows, but it may one day be enough to get a thought stirring in the right person's head to make something good happen.

I've read a lot of articles about how social media has tipped the scales toward consumers in the past few years. Stories about people getting screwed by a company, taking their fight to twitter and the company immediately responding and righting the situation. When a company makes a page on a social media they're saying "We're here to interact with people." Thing is, as opposed to a commercial we all watch, the interaction goes two ways, giving consumers the power to interact with the company.

No company wants their name trending in a bad way on twitter, and they don't want to think whenever something is put on facebook they'll be reminded of a past wrong. If nothing else, we're making NCsoft SERIOUSLY reconsider closing any future games because of all the problems closing CoH caused and is still causing for them.

I think anyone doing this should be professional and understand what they post will reflect on our community. Outside of that condition I say go ahead, let 'em know we're still here.

Yup. That is why I hard time wrapping my head around viewing this as a war. Action? Yes. War? Well just about every war, have a clear objective. I.e to take the land, or prevent invasion, quell invasion etc. and every action is to move closer to the mission objective.

Yet here it don't look like there is a defined point where it can be said mission accomplished.  Looks like for example, expressing displeasure on social media and trying to steer potential customers from them will continue no matter what happens even if in theory Ncsoft sells the IP or even flip the switch hire all of paragon studios and continue in as if it a Aug. 29th

[Lightslinger]

Agreed, I really really really hate calling this a war. Dare anyone to go to a bar with a soldier and tell him or her about our "war" with NCsoft. But that's me and its just semantics really.

[JaguarX]

Agreed, I really really really hate calling this a war. Dare anyone to go to a bar with a soldier and tell him or her about our "war" with NCsoft. But that's me and its just semantics really.

Yeah I was a soldier. I seen the face and result of war. Watched the morgue trying to "organize" and sort charred mangled bodies. Nothing glorious about it. The smell of burnt human flesh and innards is not a smell easily forgotten. But meh, war these days is a word that is seemed to be applied to any sort of struggle these days. I just attributed it to changing times of everything is a crisis from being defriended from a facebook page to a cell phone dying. 
My main point is that it looking like firing a scatter gun hoping something happens and continue doing so even then because it dont seem there is a clear view of what we would like to see from them. And if we don't even know then more than likely the target have no idea. If ncsoft is watching and I was them I wouldn't even be sure if selling the ip would suffice and like in uncertain times sometimes people just stsy the course. Which seems like they are doing.

[NecrotechMaster]

i dont have a FB, but seeing that i think that they are still trying to just stifle us out and hope we go away

posting comments regarding coh on their page and the fact ncsoft cant be trusted as far as maintaining an active game more than a couple years  are not wrong

IMO its basically just voicing opinions, ncsoft is trying to hype up wildstar, ect but the disgruntled customers they created over shutting down coh (or previous games) will voice their opinion that they no longer support ncsoft and would consider them moneygrabbing business jerkwads that could shut a game down on a whim

[FatherXmas]

No, but restaurants get angry comments from customers on their facebook pages when they do something like, say, fire a server for posting a picture of a horrible comment someone that refuses to tip put on a receipt.  And I haven't heard of those restaurants banning anyone from their pages from that (although they might and I haven't heard about it, but I think the internet would've gotten even more angry over those incidents if they did).

We're not fans of another product disparaging them on their page over fanboy stuff, it's calling them out for something horrible they've done.

For small mom/pop restaurants sure.  It's unlikely they have someone in charge of social media.  Social Media for companies is a way to gauge and control word of mouth advertising and considering NCSOFT's history, their only post launch advertising.

Also we don't know if it's just an overzealous employee in charge of their FB page or NCsoft West's edict.  The new holding company did finally go into full effect the 1st.  Guild Wars 2 and Wildstar hype may actually draw a few more eyeballs there but those games have their own FB pages.

It is mentioned in the about section, if you expand it

The NCSOFT Facebook page is a place where we openly engage with our fans and we encourage our fans to post comments and provide feedback as it relates to our games and industry. Please understand that we reserve the right to delete comments for any reason we deem appropriate.

And I can understand banning you from posting if everything you post indicates you aren't A) a "fan" and B) they always end up deleting them.  I'm sure the guy in charge has better things to do than constantly moderate their FB page for "hooligans".

[HarvesterOfEyes]

Agreed, I really really really hate calling this a war. Dare anyone to go to a bar with a soldier and tell him or her about our "war" with NCsoft. But that's me and its just semantics really.

War is not in our interest. No one who wants to succeed should call it that.

You are making a peaceful protest to bring about ~justice~. Stand directly in their faces and make your demands peaceably. Make no threats, but cross lines that will force them to act. Make them be the violent ones.

[Mistress Urd]

i dont have a FB, but seeing that i think that they are still trying to just stifle us out and hope we go away

posting comments regarding coh on their page and the fact ncsoft cant be trusted as far as maintaining an active game more than a couple years  are not wrong

IMO its basically just voicing opinions, ncsoft is trying to hype up wildstar, ect but the disgruntled customers they created over shutting down coh (or previous games) will voice their opinion that they no longer support ncsoft and would consider them moneygrabbing business jerkwads that could shut a game down on a whim

I won't be going away. I doubt NCSoft is going to sell CoH because its too much of a "risk" to sell. They don't want to risk the game being better run by someone else. The bad NCSoft PR is a good thing and I can't wait to fire up the BBQ for the NCSoft going away party.

[JaguarX]

War is not in our interest. No one who wants to succeed should call it that.

You are making a peaceful protest to bring about ~justice~. Stand directly in their faces and make your demands peaceably. Make no threats, but cross lines that will force them to act. Make them be the violent ones.

+1

[Tanklet]

Yup. That is why I hard time wrapping my head around viewing this as a war. Action? Yes. War? Well just about every war, have a clear objective. I.e to take the land, or prevent invasion, quell invasion etc. and every action is to move closer to the mission objective.

Yet here it don't look like there is a defined point where it can be said mission accomplished.  Looks like for example, expressing displeasure on social media and trying to steer potential customers from them will continue no matter what happens even if in theory Ncsoft sells the IP or even flip the switch hire all of paragon studios and continue in as if it a Aug. 29th

I never once said this was a war. I don't see it as a war. In fact, my words exactly were "movement" and "peaceful protest"
That's what I consider this being.

[Tanklet]

While I did this only a little bit back in the day, I think there's nothing wrong with anyone doing this so long as they are being respectful. At the very least they're keeping our community and CoH in their heads. What does that accomplish? Who knows, but it may one day be enough to get a thought stirring in the right person's head to make something good happen.

I've read a lot of articles about how social media has tipped the scales toward consumers in the past few years. Stories about people getting screwed by a company, taking their fight to twitter and the company immediately responding and righting the situation. When a company makes a page on a social media they're saying "We're here to interact with people." Thing is, as opposed to a commercial we all watch, the interaction goes two ways, giving consumers the power to interact with the company.

No company wants their name trending in a bad way on twitter, and they don't want to think whenever something is put on facebook they'll be reminded of a past wrong. If nothing else, we're making NCsoft SERIOUSLY reconsider closing any future games because of all the problems closing CoH caused and is still causing for them.

I think anyone doing this should be professional and understand what they post will reflect on our community. Outside of that condition I say go ahead, let 'em know we're still here.

+1000

[JaguarX]

I never once said this was a war. I don't see it as a war. In fact, my words exactly were "movement" and "peaceful protest"
That's what I consider this being.

I never said you did.

Whether you realize it or not i was agreeing with ya.

[dwturducken]

There are certain folks here, good and well-intentioned, who take the methods and actions of NCSoft since the announcement a bit more seriously than most of the rest of us, despite reasoned attempts to dissuade them. I'm not saying they're dangerous, just more enthusiastic.

[Captain Electric]

My main point is that it looking like firing a scatter gun hoping something happens and continue doing so even then because it dont seem there is a clear view of what we would like to see from them. And if we don't even know then more than likely the target have no idea. If ncsoft is watching and I was them I wouldn't even be sure if selling the ip would suffice and like in uncertain times sometimes people just stsy the course. Which seems like they are doing.

This has been a HUGE, MEGA-HUGE, BLOCKBUSTER-BIG concern of mine since the start. I've said since my very first emails, letters, and forum posts about/aimed at NCSoft that I'd be first in line to buy their games and spread praise for them if they righted this situation. Facebook, Twitter, forum threads, word-of-mouth, I'd go back to being their best friend.

Now I won't name names, because I'd be putting people I like on the spot. But I've heard people say they'd love for Jack "Statesman" Emmert buy City of Heroes, because it would be like Statesman (or maybe Tyrant) coming back to save us from the devil we thought was our friend all these years. I'd love for Jack to buy CoH too, but that's probably not even our hurdle. Our hurdle is getting NCSoft to sell it to him. And judging from what I've seen around here, a continued demonizing of NCSoft would persist after the fact--and that kind of thinking, or similar seems to be our community's PREDOMINANT view of that scenario.

ANY NCSoft employee would see it written all over our community: we will punish them if they help us, just like we punished them for harming us.

If I was a decision-maker at NCSoft, I might not actually be able to calculate a positive impact on image from selling. So would I sell? I might not, if I wanted to appear competent. And this is coming from one of the biggest "anti-NCSoft" smack talkers around. But accountability must go both ways if you want to be able to call yourself clear-eyed. Gamers are a tremendously fickle crowd, tremendously angry when spurned and tremendously ungrateful and petty when satisfied--and these big companies know it. As a group, we have given NCSoft no indication that we'll be nice to them ever, ever again, no matter what.

I think we should turn that around.

[JanessaVR]

It may not be a shooting war, but I'm standing by my assertion that this is a war.

The Enemy:  NCSoft
Hostilities Began:  Aug 31st, 2012, when NCSoft announced the closure of City of Heroes (still without explanation).
Our Objective:  Seeing CoH restarted or sold to someone else who will.
Our Army:  Ex-CoH players at Titan Network (and any other sympathetic Ex-CoH players out there).  We're a rag-tag army to be sure, but I still count us as one.
Our De-Facto Generals:  TonyV and Victoria Victrix
Our Weapons:  Words, advertising, and for lack of a better term, political maneuvering - in short, this is a public relations war.
Upon Victory:  I cannot speak for others, but for myself, I'm totally prepared to cease any hostility against NCSoft if we get CoH back.  I might even check out some of their other games.  But there is simply no profit in continuing any hostilities with them once we have CoH back.  They give up CoH to someone who will restart it, war's over.

This is how I perceive the situation, and will not be dissuaded otherwise.

[DarkCurrent]

Why would NCSoft consider what the fans would think if they decided to sell?  They already made it clear they didn't care what we thought when they first decided to close.

They'll sell the IP if it's worth it to them.  No other reason or consideration is needed.  Business is business.  Assuming NCSoft is / would take things personally doesn't fit.

[dwturducken]

It may not be a shooting war, but I'm standing by my assertion that this is a war.

This is how I perceive the situation, and will not be dissuaded otherwise.

And I'm not trying to belittle or dismiss your viewpoint. I just think the rhetoric is a little extreme. You're not plotting or advocating fire-bombing anyone, so you're not a real and present danger to anyone. I also worry about your blood pressure.

[JanessaVR]

I also worry about your blood pressure.

The evenings here are still a bit chilly - it keeps me warm at night.   

[Golden Girl]

It may not be a shooting war, but I'm standing by my assertion that this is a war.

We're the Resistance

[JanessaVR]

We're the Resistance

Well, conveniently enough, South Park's provided us a theme song then:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LonKGuS9uuQ

[Golden Girl]

Well, conveniently enough, South Park's provided us a theme song then:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LonKGuS9uuQ

I thought that it was this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiBNV5EUo3s ?

[dwturducken]

[JaguarX]

It may not be a shooting war, but I'm standing by my assertion that this is a war.

The Enemy:  NCSoft
Hostilities Began:  Aug 31st, 2012, when NCSoft announced the closure of City of Heroes (still without explanation).
Our Objective:  Seeing CoH restarted or sold to someone else who will.
Our Army:  Ex-CoH players at Titan Network (and any other sympathetic Ex-CoH players out there).  We're a rag-tag army to be sure, but I still count us as one.
Our De-Facto Generals:  TonyV and Victoria Victrix
Our Weapons:  Words, advertising, and for lack of a better term, political maneuvering - in short, this is a public relations war.
Upon Victory:  I cannot speak for others, but for myself, I'm totally prepared to cease any hostility against NCSoft if we get CoH back.  I might even check out some of their other games.  But there is simply no profit in continuing any hostilities with them once we have CoH back.  They give up CoH to someone who will re-start it, war's over.

This is how I perceive the situation, and will not be dissuaded otherwise.

 You make excellent point there.
And I know, you cant speak for everyone, but that is what I'm getting at. It's good you will cease fire, but what about your comrades? If I was fighting your army, and as leader, I said, hey you got me beat , I surrender. But still for the next year you see my army still killing and attacking your soldiers, perhaps you might think that A) I'm not the leader of my army after all. Or 2) It all was a ploy to stab you in the back so now it's no mercy and no more peace talks.

Even in public relation war, there has to be organization.

The thing I see is that we have leaders, we have plans, we have strategy, but there is no control of said army.

And really honestly, about 6 months later, how much closer are we to getting COX to sell or restarted than we were Aug. 31st? It don't seem much closer. Maybe about time to take a look at the strategy progress before 2-4 years go by and still at square one?

not to mention that some people miss the key word in public relation. Relation. Remember wont gather anything by jumping on anything that isnt with the view of our "Army". We'll garner more respect if we publicly embrace even the opposite view and let them have their view. When we do that, they might be more open to what we are saying. Because we dont have the muscle to strong arm them into the ranks. And whether we realize it or not, we are the ones that have to take the hill. Stay positive in the magazines articles. We want to be viewed as normal gamers that people can relate to. Not game player going nuts raging on you tube trying to sodomize himself with remote image over a game. No, we dont want that. Doing good so far on that front but after a while I seen movements degrade into to that after a while (1-2 years)

[JaguarX]

I thought that it was this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiBNV5EUo3s ?

*face to palm*

[dwturducken]

What were we talking about, again?

[Captain Electric]

Why would NCSoft consider what the fans would think if they decided to sell?  They already made it clear they didn't care what we thought when they first decided to close.

They'll sell the IP if it's worth it to them.  No other reason or consideration is needed.  Business is business.  Assuming NCSoft is / would take things personally doesn't fit.

I fully agree that this is how 99% of the world works out there and should work--and you're totally reasonable here. but NCSoft is just...they just don't...gah they just don't make sense sometimes. Even analysts on the other side of the pond share in our collective WTF, judging by South Korean media.

I'll admit, I think to myself, well if they're being offered ANYTHING in the $10 million neighborhood, heck even $6 million for an old game--well for goodness sakes, if profit is all it came down to for them, they'd have sold it by now, we'd be living in a different world. Because you can't convince me they EVER plan to do anything with an IP that has western ideologies and popular themes all over. I guarantee you, GW2/Wildstar was their last leap of faith in the NA market. Don't mention Blade & Soul, that's just a matter of shoehorning and localization. Have to remember, an MMO that pulls in 100,000 or 200,000 active, paying players is doing pretty well in NA/Europe. In the eastern markets, even crappy games pull in 1 million plus paying customers. So yeah, they're sitting on the IP, but it's not because they plan to use it, it's not because they fear NA competition, and it's NOT because they plan on getting tens of millions for it (the IP's value will decrease over time).

But yes, for a nice "song and dance" price, if I were one of them, I'd hand it over to Jack for $10 million or whatever, do some image repair and appear confident to the board ("waste not, want not.").

Unless I was a dick. Which is why, when people come up with these zany theories about malice toward Richard Garriott or Paragon Studios (for supposedly wanting to buy themselves and CoH out ala CCP/Simon & Schuster) or even toward us, sometimes I'm like... Yeah. Double-facepalm at me if you like. I wonder if somewhere in all of this, someone is just being a AAA dick.

[Golden Girl]

What were we talking about, again?

Painting a hospital sign on NCsoft's HQ, then ringing Calvin Scott.

[TimtheEnchanter]

Why would NCSoft consider what the fans would think if they decided to sell? They already made it clear they didn't care what we thought when they first decided to close.

They'll sell the IP if it's worth it to them.  No other reason or consideration is needed.  Business is business.  Assuming NCSoft is / would take things personally doesn't fit.

I fully agree that this is how 99% of the world works out there and should work

Sorry, Cap... that's way overboard. There is NO situation in the entire scope of human existence, where having a total lack of morals is how the world SHOULD work.

It may be how the world DOES work. But it's definitely not how it SHOULD.

[JaguarX]

I fully agree that this is how 99% of the world works out there and should work--and you're totally reasonable here. but NCSoft is just...they just don't...gah they just don't make sense sometimes. Even analysts on the other side of the pond share in our collective WTF, judging by South Korean media.

I'll admit, I think to myself, well if they're being offered ANYTHING in the $10 million neighborhood, heck even $6 million for an old game--well for goodness sakes, if profit is all it came down to for them, they'd have sold it by now, we'd be living in a different world. Because you can't convince me they EVER plan to do anything with an IP that has western ideologies and popular themes all over. I guarantee you, GW2/Wildstar was their last leap of faith in the NA market. Don't mention Blade & Soul, that's just a matter of shoehorning and localization. Have to remember, an MMO that pulls in 100,000 or 200,000 active, paying players is doing pretty well in NA/Europe. In the eastern markets, even crappy games pull in 1 million plus paying customers. So yeah, they're sitting on the IP, but it's not because they plan to use it, it's not because they fear NA competition, and it's NOT because they plan on getting tens of millions for it (the IP's value will decrease over time).

But yes, for a nice "song and dance" price, if I were one of them, I'd hand it over to Jack for $10 million or whatever, do some image repair and appear confident to the board ("waste not, want not.").

Unless I was a dick. Which is why, when people come up with these zany theories about malice toward Richard Garriott or Paragon Studios (for supposedly wanting to buy themselves and CoH out ala CCP/Simon & Schuster) or even toward us, sometimes I'm like... Yeah. Double-facepalm at me if you like. I wonder if somewhere in all of this, someone is just being a AAA dick.

yeah.


But usually the quickest way to piss off ya owner/boss is to say that you want to buy yourself out and become a competitor. If they dont mind, there is a slim chance they help you set up. But if it feels you stab in back after they created you, then dang right they are going to destroy you. It's like Buick going to GM headquarters and saying "Hey, GM, I know you saved us back in the early 1900s and thanks for that but now we want to be let go and become one of your competitors in addition to Ford, Toyota, Chrysler, Nissan and etc." Usually the boss wont smile, hand shake and give you tips. Usually they will mean mug and probably fire you if not right then and there.

Or rather its like going up to my boss (DoD) and saying I want to form my own army and country. Probably get arrested for treason.

[TimtheEnchanter]

It's odd for NCsoft to think that CoH would even be a competitive risk, going by their assessment of how much money the game was bringing them.

NCsoft has no interest in superheroes, so there is no game they will produce that would likely be in competition with it.

Than again, EA/Bioware wanted Star Wars Galaxies gone. They even saw THAT as a threat, even though SWG was 8 years old/had less than 50k subscribers at the time, and SWTOR was projected to have... 2 million?

[FatherXmas]

In the case of EVE, Simon & Schuster was getting out of the games/edutainment business to focus back on their core business.  They were looking for buyers when CCP said Yo!

Asheron's Call returned to Turbine when Microsoft's interest in publishing exclusive "Games for Windows" waned yet again.

NCSOFT isn't going out of the MMO business.  It's not losing interest in PC gaming over console.  MMOs are now a saturated genre with to many fingers in a nearly saturated market pie.  The idea had merit.  It did OK in the west for 8 years, not stellar but was reasonably successful.  So we're going to stick it on the shelf like some TV series with a cult following.  Maybe we'll reimage it sometime in the future or maybe not but it's ours and we aren't going to let someone else make money on it.

[Codewalker]

Unless I was a dick. Which is why, when people come up with these zany theories about malice toward Richard Garriott or Paragon Studios (for supposedly wanting to buy themselves and CoH out ala CCP/Simon & Schuster) or even toward us, sometimes I'm like... Yeah. Double-facepalm at me if you like. I wonder if somewhere in all of this, someone is just being a AAA dick.

Can't quote this hard enough.

Some people are of the belief the big corporations are driven solely by money -- that they always choose the logical course of action that will result in the greatest economic benefit for their shareholders. They believe that personal feelings of those in executive or management positions never enter into the equation, and that if they ever did, the board of directors would not only know about it, but remove the offending parties from their position. That any action taken by such a business must therefore by driven solely by economic motives.

Those people have never worked for a Fortune 500 company.

[Captain Electric]

<snip>

[JaguarX]

Can't quote this hard enough.

Some people are of the belief the big corporations are driven solely by money -- that they always choose the logical course of action that will result in the greatest economic benefit for their shareholders. They believe that personal feelings of those in executive or management positions never enter into the equation, and that if they ever did, the board of directors would not only know about it, but remove the offending parties from their position. That any action taken by such a business must therefore by driven solely by economic motives.

Those people have never worked for a Fortune 500 company.

Oh yeah lot of stuff beyond money is involved in business. Egos, butt hurt feelings, happiness, sadness, rage, curiosity, cluelessness, more ego, "the way it's been done for the past 50 years", "new is better new is better new is better" way of thinking, and etc. Just depends on the people, their way of how it's suppose to be done and policy they write that influence what happens. COX under a another company may have been still up or dead back in 2006. Or it may have never been made if under a company that dont believe anything outside a fantasy game is worth making. But in the end, none of them know us from the next guy and mere customers. Some companies pay attention to every single customer. While others ya aint nothing but a number and could give less than a hoot if ya fuss and cuss as long as they make money. Same with CEOs, Some are hands on in day to day operations, some dont give a flip as long as that sheet at the end of the quarter is in the black. While others still just collect paycheck run company into ground and move on to the next.

[TimtheEnchanter]

Some people are of the belief the big corporations are driven solely by money -- that they always choose the logical course of action that will result in the greatest economic benefit for their shareholders. They believe that personal feelings of those in executive or management positions never enter into the equation, and that if they ever did, the board of directors would not only know about it, but remove the offending parties from their position. That any action taken by such a business must therefore by driven solely by economic motives.

It's a belief, but it wasn't perpetrated by the public. It's exactly what all tycoons want us to think. It's their way of excusing themselves from being held responsible for any wrongdoing.

It's like being a raving lunatic while maintaining the illusion that you're an emotionless robot. You can't be suspected because emotions don't factor into your behavior. It's all part of that "It's just business" and "Business is business" smoke screen that hinders the public's ability to perceive you as immoral.

[JaguarX]

It's a belief, but it wasn't perpetrated by the public. It's exactly what all tycoons want us to think. It's their way of excusing themselves from being held responsible for any wrongdoing.

It's like being a homicidal maniac while maintaining the illusion that you're an emotionless robot. You can't be held accountable because emotions don't factor into your behavior. It's all part of that "It's just business" and "Business is business" smoke screen that hinders the public's ability to perceive you as immoral.

Well sometimes business is business. Sometimes it's the customer that get too attached at their own peril. Like for example did a business transaction with this guy about a car. While generally nice to each other, it doesnt mean just because he bought and I sold means we are best friends and will keep in touch. Quite frankly I dont care about him anymore or anyless than any other person I dont know. It's just business. He come with money, I sell, he leave and I go about my day.
Now the personal stuff that people add will vary. Some people I know keep it distant when it comes to business because when it's time to close it's easy. No hard feelings. But when you get personal with business, it can get messy, extremely messy.

Not saying this was the case for this case.


Then again how did it get this way? Well long time ago, instead of nipping it in the bud, citizens basically stop taking responsibility for themselves and basically handed their power over to corporations. We want corporations to take responsibility for everything but dont want to take responsibility for our own actions, knowledge, and not looking before leaping and being aware of the surroundings.

[Captain Electric]

I fully agree that this is how 99% of the world works out there and should work

Sorry, Cap... that's way overboard. There is NO situation in the entire scope of human existence, where having a total lack of morals is how the world SHOULD work.

It may be how the world DOES work. But it's definitely not how it SHOULD.

<*snip* everything I typed in my post above>

Businesses shouldn't operate on upper management ego, shouldn't hold our passion for the service against us, and selling something for what it's worth is not a cr---

You know Tim, I think you misunderstand my position, and for that matter the position I've always held here.

[TimtheEnchanter]

You know Tim, I think you misunderstand my position, and for that matter the position I've always held here.

Lol, yeah... I think I did.

[TimtheEnchanter]

Then again how did it get this way? Well long time ago, instead of nipping it in the bud, citizens basically stop taking responsibility for themselves and basically handed their power over to corporations. We want corporations to take responsibility for everything but dont want to take responsibility for our own actions, knowledge, and not looking before leaping and being aware of the surroundings.

Well I can agree with some of that. I don't want to get into a big discussion about it. I already made an enormous post about this issue and how I feel it evolved, in the housing bubble thread.

I must say though, I've never understood how any individual can be expected to be capable of navigating the marketing labyrinth. Billions upon billions of dollars, and 'who the heck knows' how many man-hours of psychiatric research by geniuses, have been put into forming strategies for manipulating us without us even realizing we're manipulated.

Who would say it's John Doe's fault that he can't outfox an army comprised of the smartest foxes in the world?

Here's one example I just turned up on a quick search. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-mindful-self-express/201203/ten-ways-your-local-grocery-store-hijacks-your-brain

Could we become proficient enough to learn how to deflect all these manipulative tricks that are being used on us in every aspect of our lives? Probably. But it would take so much work that we would have no time for anything else, including the essentials.

The human mind has been fully hacked by marketers, but unlike we do with computers, we can't install a firewall and be done with it.

[JaguarX]

Well I can agree with some of that. I don't want to get into a big discussion about it. I already made an enormous post about this issue and how I feel it evolved, in the housing bubble thread.

I must say though, I've never understood how any individual can be expected to be capable of navigating the marketing labyrinth. Billions upon billions of dollars, and 'who the heck knows' how many man-hours of psychiatric research by geniuses, have been put into forming strategies for manipulating us without us even realizing we're manipulated.

Who would say it's John Doe's fault that he can't outfox an army comprised of the smartest foxes in the world?

Here's one example I just turned up on a quick search. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-mindful-self-express/201203/ten-ways-your-local-grocery-store-hijacks-your-brain

Could we become proficient enough to learn how to deflect all these manipulative tricks that are being used on us in every aspect of our lives? Probably. But it would take so much work that we would have no time for anything else, including the essentials.

The human mind has been fully hacked by marketers, but unlike we do with computers, we can't install a firewall and be done with it.

Yeah we missed the boat on that one. Now, the problem may never be solved. But that doesnt mean we (as consumers) cant start. If we continue to sift responsibility of our own actions onto everything but ourselves, the ones that actually have control, then sure as hell is hot, corporations will use that to take control and tell you what to eat what to buy what to wear what phone to use when to use it and etc. And it seems people are just sitting around just letting them without so much as a question. But at the same time we cant expect them to take responsibility if we arent even willing to take responsibility for even the simplest action of deciding on what shoes to buy. Instead of saying "I decided to buy these shoes" it's "Nike made me buy these shoes." If Nike is responsible for people, then should they have the right to say, put you on house arrest so that you can pay a few bills instead of spending bill money on shoes? And then for saving you require that you buy ten shoes by next month? It's their responsibility it seems why not? No responsibility no rights. If we want corporations to be responsible for our lives, they will, but that is worse than selling ya soul to the devil and at this point it seems like a lot of society is already signing the paperwork over to them.

[TimtheEnchanter]

Yeah we missed the boat on that one. Now, the problem may never be solved. But that doesnt mean we (as consumers) cant start. If we continue to sift responsibility of our own actions onto everything but ourselves, the ones that actually have control, then sure as hell is hot, corporations will use that to take control and tell you what to eat what to buy what to wear what phone to use when to use it and etc. And it seems people are just sitting around just letting them without so much as a question. But at the same time we cant expect them to take responsibility if we arent even willing to take responsibility for even the simplest action of deciding on what shoes to buy. Instead of saying "I decided to buy these shoes" it's "Nike made me buy these shoes." If Nike is responsible for people, then should they have the right to say, put you on house arrest so that you can pay a few bills instead of spending bill money on shoes? And then for saving you require that you buy ten shoes by next month? It's their responsibility it seems why not? No responsibility no rights. If we want corporations to be responsible for our lives, they will, but that is worse than selling ya soul to the devil and at this point it seems like a lot of society is already signing the paperwork over to them.

Yeah, I wouldn't have a clue of where to start on that though.

It sort of reminds me of what goes through my head every time someone suggests that we get rid of lobbyists. All that would happen is the lobbyists would lobby to prevent the banning of lobbying.

Diverting the public is a similar dilemma. Generally if you try to stop a stampede, you simply get run over. And for this little minority of us who care about the well-being of the greater whole, wouldn't we essentially need to have more advertising power than the advertisers, thereby requiring us to rob the people just like the status quo does so we can get the resources to accomplish it?

This is probably why most significant changes to the world end up happening only after a lot of bloodshed. You can't get people to stop drinking poison by giving them more poison. But the moment you try circumventing everything to halt the production of poison, you've entered into the realm of illegality, and all Hell would break loose.

[JaguarX]

Yeah, I wouldn't have a clue of where to start on that though.

It sort of reminds me of what goes through my head every time someone suggests that we get rid of lobbyists. All that would happen is the lobbyists would lobby to prevent the banning of lobbying.

Diverting the public is a similar dilemma. Generally if you try to stop a stampede, you simply get run over. And for this little minority of us who care about the well-being of the greater whole, wouldn't we essentially need to have more advertising power than the advertisers, thereby requiring us to rob the people just like the status quo does so we can get the resources to accomplish it?

This is probably why most significant changes to the world end up happening only after a lot of bloodshed. You can't get people to stop drinking poison by giving them more poison. But the moment you try circumventing everything to halt the production of poison, you've entered into the realm of illegality, and all Hell would break loose.

yeah.
 lobbying, same concept of who allowed these yokles to take over and thought it was a good idea (probably sounded like good idea way back in the day) but now they are in, it's like trying to get rid of a cockroach infestation.

[Aggelakis]

So... moral of the story...?

Don't crap all over the FB page for NCsoft because they have 100% control over whether or not you continue to have posting privileges there. (This is their right, just like you can be thrown out of [your old favorite restaurant] for standing at the door to their store and trying to tell everyone going through that their products are crap, their service is crap, and that they have no ethics or morals because they stopped serving your favorite dish.)

I think that about covers it? Looks good. This thread isn't terribly productive anymore...super off-track, and the OP's point has been made...let's nuke it from orbit.