Fool me Six Times!

[chaparralshrub]

Well, I'll be honest. There is one game that I can think of that NCSoft might make at some point in the future, and I'd grab it and play it in a heartbeat. And I don't think I even need to tell you what it's title would be.

[TimtheEnchanter]

My reason for not going near NC again, as much as I'm angry with them over this, isn't because of CoH specifically. It's because when you keep dating crazy people who dump you after a month, the best solution is to stop dating crazy people. NC can't be trusted to keep a game going, even if it's still profiting.

Well, I'll be honest. There is one game that I can think of that NCSoft might make at some point in the future, and I'd grab it and play it in a heartbeat. And I don't think I even need to tell you what it's title would be.

If they were smart about it... instead of canning PS, all they needed to do was tell them to halt all development on CoH and start working on... THAT.

[Mistress Urd]

Yeah, but gamers never stick to their boycotts. Especially not ones who are not personally invested in the cause of the boycott.

If EVERY CoH subscriber were to cut all ties to NCSoft, they probably still wouldn't take notice.
If in a year, we could get a massive 'boycott' of NCSoft put together, it would only hold out, really, until their next new shiny released in the US, then all the sheep gamers would go "ooh, shiny!" and run out and buy it, leaving it just the people who really have any stake in the fight.. which in a years time, how many people will still be as vehement about it as they are now?

And even then.. let's just say we somehow managed to by some miracle.. create such a boycott that it caused NCSoft to lose all their NA market.
First of all, bye-bye Arena.Net, additionally all NA NCSoft offices would be closed, any other NA based developer they have would be let go.. so basically, because of our actions, lots of innocent bystanders would lose their jobs. For what? To make a point and cost NCSoft less than 10% of their income?

This gamer will avoid NCSoft

[TheFlea]

Let me put it this way.

As much as people bash on PWI saying that the fact they've kept all their games alive, even their older ones counts for nothing...

As of November 30th NCSoft will have officially killed off 5/15 MMOs that have died. One third of them.

I for one think the MMO-Killer title is deserved. SOE may let their games slowly rot away in Maintenance Mode hell but NCSoft kills them outright. A boycott probably won't matter so much because they pulled the plug on CoH after GW2 was released and because of the way Guild Wars and GW2 work - buy and play free forever it won't matter how many people stop playing. You've still bought the game, you've still handed over your money.

Where a Boycott will hurt them is their new releases, which don't look to be coming out before CoH sunsets. If there was one coming out beforehand that would be where we could make the hardest impact - negative press and reputation would cause a boycott of Game X, they'd step back and have to look at what they're planning to close.

What gets me is the fact they did this about a week after GW2 coming out. Crafty Gits milked pre-order and day of release purchases before kicking half the population in the teeth.

[Quinch]

Personally, I'm partial to the #ncsoftmmokiller meme approach, but I'm not sure how it should be used.

The thing to remember is that memes have the potential to be immensely powerful, bypassing corporate suppression methods by spreading through popular culture, but as with most powerful things, they are just as unpredictable. That said, while NCsoft is well on its way to have earned that title, it might not help save CoH. Render retribution, should it become unsaveable, I certainly hope so, but essentially, it would be an opening shot in an all-out war.

This, again, assuming the meme catches on to begin with. That said, it would have several factors going in its favor - gamers might arguably form the internet's most active demographic and rallying for the underdog {or better still, a martyr} in the face of a faceless corporation is something that appeals to a lot of people, even those who haven't been playing to begin with. And we can't exactly go to NCsoft saying, "let someone responsible buy the City of Heroes IP or we'll release pictures painting you as 'the MMO killer' on the internet". Even if it didn't come off as ridiculously desperate, I'm pretty sure it would be legally fuzzy and definitely unethical.

So, I dunno. It's really only applicable once NCsoft has earned the title, and by that point it'll already be too late to change anything.

[Vulpy]

So, I dunno. It's really only applicable once NCsoft has earned the title, and by that point it'll already be too late to change anything.

Will it? I ask that sincerely. Even if the game shuts down on December 1, as scheduled, the servers will still be around for a bit. I'd have to imagine they'll keep a backup of the code--storage costs almost nothing, and the data itself could be invaluable. If nothing else, the IP can still be sold even if all the data is gone and the game is rendered down to nothing.

[Zolgar]

Let me put it this way.

As much as people bash on PWI saying that the fact they've kept all their games alive, even their older ones counts for nothing...

As of November 30th NCSoft will have officially killed off 5/15 MMOs that have died. One third of them.

I for one think the MMO-Killer title is deserved. SOE may let their games slowly rot away in Maintenance Mode hell but NCSoft kills them outright. A boycott probably won't matter so much because they pulled the plug on CoH after GW2 was released and because of the way Guild Wars and GW2 work - buy and play free forever it won't matter how many people stop playing. You've still bought the game, you've still handed over your money.

Where a Boycott will hurt them is their new releases, which don't look to be coming out before CoH sunsets. If there was one coming out beforehand that would be where we could make the hardest impact - negative press and reputation would cause a boycott of Game X, they'd step back and have to look at what they're planning to close.

What gets me is the fact they did this about a week after GW2 coming out. Crafty Gits milked pre-order and day of release purchases before kicking half the population in the teeth.

Unfortunately, GW2 is still growing. Sales were so high that they had to temporary disable sales so they could get their servers improved to be able to handle the massive influx of players. It's over 2 million units sold and counting.

[Turjan]

Unfortunately, GW2 is still growing. Sales were so high that they had to temporary disable sales so they could get their servers improved to be able to handle the massive influx of players. It's over 2 million units sold and counting.

True, but NCSoft share prices have dropped back again since the quick hit given by those initial 2 million sales because all the mad overhype and marketing seems to have left shareholders thinking the game would've sold 6 million copies by now, not a 'mere' 2 million.

The stock market eh? *shrug*

Bizarrely, businesses like NCSoft often don't regard sales/profits as the benchmark for success, but rather what their current share price is. They think more of shareholder confidence than they do of whatever products they actually have out there in the marketplace.

And it's thinking like that which leads to decisions like the one to close CoH. There's no logic to it, other than the desire not to lose face on the stock market by letting your shareholders down.

[Turjan]

Anyway...back on the subject of memes and such, here's a little something I penned in a moment of literary contemplation

For want of a share price, CoH was lost.
For want of CoH the community was lost.
For want of a community the foreign market was lost.
For want of a foreign market the new MMO was lost.
For want of a new MMO the investment was lost.
For want of investment the corporation was lost.
And all for the want of a shareholder price.

[Quinch]

Will it? I ask that sincerely. Even if the game shuts down on December 1, as scheduled, the servers will still be around for a bit. I'd have to imagine they'll keep a backup of the code--storage costs almost nothing, and the data itself could be invaluable. If nothing else, the IP can still be sold even if all the data is gone and the game is rendered down to nothing.

Because if the meme catches on, it'll be impossible to put it back into the bottle. NCsoft's image will be widely tarnished and they would probably view reacting to that as essentially setting a precedent as bowing to pressure, something that no company wants to be seen doing because opens them to more pressure.

[Vulpy]

Because if the meme catches on, it'll be impossible to put it back into the bottle. NCsoft's image will be widely tarnished and they would probably view reacting to that as essentially setting a precedent as bowing to pressure, something that no company wants to be seen doing because opens them to more pressure.

The downside is that we can't force a meme. Ever. The internet can smell that, and the backlash would make us look bad. Instead of pushing a meme, think of it as sharing a blackly funny comic with friends that might be interested--former TR players, say. They probably know other former TR players, and maybe they know someone who is active in the new MMO's community. And so on.

But we can't go about this telling ourselves "we're going to make a meme."

[Quinch]

Well, yeah, I probably could have phrased that better, but I don't really have a word for "a bunch of pictures and other creative stuff by former CoH players who hope that their creations will become interesting and, more importantly, entertaining enough to other people so that they feel like sharing some of them regardless of whether they played CoH."

[Atlantea]

Unfortunately, GW2 is still growing. Sales were so high that they had to temporary disable sales so they could get their servers improved to be able to handle the massive influx of players. It's over 2 million units sold and counting.

It doesn't matter. As I said before - we can't stop them from making money off of Arenanet. We can't hurt them there. It's a non-issue.

I'm not even sure the #NCSoftMMOKiller Meme will have an effect on whether Wildstar will get released or not. I think we might have some impact - based on how far out their release date would be (they haven't even started Alpha Testing yet as far as I know, so it may be more than a year away from even Beta).

Best case scenario in my mind is that Carbine negotiates a buy-out deal with some other company and leverages it's way out of the clutches of NCSoft before they finish development of the game. Considering NCSoft appears (via those reports in the Glass Door papers) to want out of the western market and are on the verge of closing NCWest entirely, that may make the most sense for both NCSoft and Carbine in the long run. But that's pure speculation on my part.

As an aside - who even knows the logic behind NCSoft's decision-making any more? They don't appear to be acting with any kind of business logic at all that makes any sense.

I have a personal theory - and it is ONLY a theory, so keep that caveat in mind!

The theory is that what we're seeing is a company in the throes of an internal power struggle. One faction liked the western market and wanted to develop and support it and the other... doesn't. And the faction that wants to concentrate on the S.K. market is in ascendancy at the moment, but not fully in control either. Thus the schizophrenic nature of the moves this company is making.

But back to the topic at hand.

What is the #NCsoftMMOKiller meme good for then, if it doesn't help save City of Heroes?

It's simple - we take it as our goal to inform every gamer and potential game studio out there as often as possible about NCSoft and their practices. It is our DUTY to educate people so that this NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN.

It's not just vindictiveness for it's own sake. If we are truly heroes, then that implies SERVICE to the wider gaming community, not just our own. And the service in this case is to keep spreading our story. To let people know of what an injustice has been done - both to our game and our world and to the 80+ employees of Paragon Studios who were done wrong.

Ultimately it won't just be gamers who commonly know about it. It will be artists and programmers and developers and writers in the industry. Those game studios will know better than to get into a deal with NCSoft. In fact I'd wager that many in the industry are already WELL AWARE of the situation and making or modifying plans accordingly.

I don't want any other gaming community to suffer what we have. And they don't have to if they are educated. That's our job from here on out.

I recall recently seeing a tweet from Positron after the Unity rally that - if nothing else is accomplished, that one thing is certain, no other MMO will ever be shutdown in this way ever again.

And Vulpy - you're wrong. We're not forcing a meme to come into existence.

The perception of NCSoft as the MMO killer is already there. It's out there RIGHT NOW in the wider gaming community. There's no need whatsoever to "force it". NCSoft is doing a wonderful job of screwing themselves in that regard.

We're just taking note of the meme and giving it a NAME.

You're behind the curve -

To quote G'Kar - "When the avalanche has started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote."

[Segev]

I am more a fan of two other G'kar quotes, which are oddly appropriate here, but totally different in meaning in this context:

"We're here!"

and

"I hear you!"

[Atlantea]

I am more a fan of two other G'kar quotes, which are oddly appropriate here, but totally different in meaning in this context:

"We're here!"

and

"I hear you!"

Hehe...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQARSzT2lbo

That was an awesome scene, the two of them trapped in that elevator.

[Osborn]

Our literal only legal options in dealing with a business like NCSoft (or really any of them, EA, Activision, etc.) is litigation (such as making the games illegal, legal or taxed, etc.), buying their games or not buying their games.

That is literally the only support or damnation we're truly capable of. Complaining can help them know what we want, yes, but that's about all it can do.

This unity rally, or these negative ads only matter insomuch as it shows people willing to buy or people unwilling to buy anymore. But a lot of us are saying that we can't boycott, that we have to buy and with the same confidence we did before the news.

But that's litrerally taking our only actual option to do anything off the table. If I go out and buy 4 copies of Guild Wars 2 because I don't want to hurt NCSoft's feelings then they have absolutely no reason to not keep CoH shut down. No, I wont be giving them my CoH money but they don't want that anymore or they would had left the game open.

I mean what even is negative press but a lot of people very angrily boycotting the product. We can't be like "Good the public is angry at their decision so now they'll very angrily throw piles of money at NCSoft! That'll learn 'em!"

[cptbarcode]

I think the point here, is that they're the ones scorching the earth.



...we're just willing to salt it after.

"NCSoft delenda est" is the paraphrase I'm going for.

[Segev]

Our literal only legal options in dealing with a business like NCSoft (or really any of them, EA, Activision, etc.) is litigation (such as making the games illegal, legal or taxed, etc.), buying their games or not buying their games.

That is literally the only support or damnation we're truly capable of. Complaining can help them know what we want, yes, but that's about all it can do.

This unity rally, or these negative ads only matter insomuch as it shows people willing to buy or people unwilling to buy anymore. But a lot of us are saying that we can't boycott, that we have to buy and with the same confidence we did before the news.

But that's litrerally taking our only actual option to do anything off the table. If I go out and buy 4 copies of Guild Wars 2 because I don't want to hurt NCSoft's feelings then they have absolutely no reason to not keep CoH shut down. No, I wont be giving them my CoH money but they don't want that anymore or they would had left the game open.

I mean what even is negative press but a lot of people very angrily boycotting the product. We can't be like "Good the public is angry at their decision so now they'll very angrily throw piles of money at NCSoft! That'll learn 'em!"

I'm honestly unsure what point you're trying to make here.

The whole point of bad press campaigns is to give them a PR nightmare, because a PR nightmare makes doing profitable business more difficult for the target.

It's not trying to salve anybody's feelings by making them buy GW2; that's foolish. In fact, the goal is, in part, to get people to hesitate before buying GW2 on the grounds that it could shut down entirely, just as suddenly.

The best option is for NCSoft to sell the IP to CoH; we want to make that a viable, attractive option that will instantly turn around any bad press we are generating. If and when that happens, it is imperative that we not trumpet it as a victory "over" NCSoft, but as a triumphant alliance that is a win for everybody.

Remember, asian culture is huge on Face. We want to make sure that, if they work with us (or at least the way we want), we reward them by saving and even enhancing their Face, preferably while gaining some of our own. It will make Titan Networks and all involved have more clout in the future in similar circumstances.

[Atlantea]

"NCSoft delenda est" is the paraphrase I'm going for.

Hrm...  I know my Roman history enough to recognize where you got that. I think the usage of that phrase might be a -little- extreme in this case. Comparing NCSoft to Carthage and the ultimate fate of same is not exactly the angle I was going for there.

[Vulpy]

To clarify my earlier comments: I might be a little skittish of the idea of consciously advancing a meme because of time spent reading flame wars on knowyourmeme.com. Some of you folks might be better at that sort of cat-herding than I am. If you are, have at it.