Author Topic: Fool me Six Times!  (Read 25297 times)

cptbarcode

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #80 on: September 27, 2012, 11:22:55 PM »
Hrm...  I know my Roman history enough to recognize where you got that. I think the usage of that phrase might be a -little- extreme in this case. Comparing NCSoft to Carthage and the ultimate fate of same is not exactly the angle I was going for there.

Oh, sure. And we're not Rome, not hardly. But when the hyperbole turns to scorched and salted earth, I say you can't go wrong with the classics.

We don't want to literally burn down anything. We do, however, want to ensure that it is significantly less expensive to NCSoft for them to sell City of Heroes to someone who will love it and continue to run it than it would be for them to do otherwise. (And by 'we' I mean 'me for sure, and probably some other unspecified people') If CoH was 2% of their revenue, I would like to see them take an additional 6% hit to revenues as a result of burning this game (threefold return and all that). More would be better, because I'm vindictive when people steal from me. Not sure how to get there though. They have no other products I have any interest in, so a boycott is meaningless. It's like my boycott of Ford because of bad cars they sold me in the 90s; not a hardship.

Atlantea

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #81 on: September 27, 2012, 11:30:30 PM »
I can certainly get behind the emotional side of that, and the "3-fold" retribution part.

Osborn

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #82 on: September 27, 2012, 11:38:33 PM »
I'm honestly unsure what point you're trying to make here.

The whole point of bad press campaigns is to give them a PR nightmare, because a PR nightmare makes doing profitable business more difficult for the target.

Yes, I agree. I was saying a PR nightmare becomes not just 'free advertisement' because the people who hear these negative things aren't going to buy. That's my whole point to the people who are saying "We should just continue to buy NCSoft products no matter what, we don't want to hurt their feelings!". If we plan on buying these products regardless of the PR nightmare, basically we're just giving the company free advertisement and incentive to do what they were going to do anyways.

It's not trying to salve anybody's feelings by making them buy GW2; that's foolish. In fact, the goal is, in part, to get people to hesitate before buying GW2 on the grounds that it could shut down entirely, just as suddenly.

Uh, yeah that's what I said. I said we shouldn't buy their games just to make them like us better. I was saying that refusing to buy was the point of bad PR. Somewhere along the line I think you've confused what I've said mostly for the opposite of what I said.

The best option is for NCSoft to sell the IP to CoH; we want to make that a viable, attractive option that will instantly turn around any bad press we are generating. If and when that happens, it is imperative that we not trumpet it as a victory "over" NCSoft, but as a triumphant alliance that is a win for everybody.

I agree, but until that point there's been a lot of sentiment that if we don't buy GW2 and invest in NCSoft as if nothing happened, that we'll make them frowny and they won't want to sell. But I feel that's the opposite, that if we buy with the same confidence we had before CoH went under, or if worse if we buy even faster than before then, that we're basically giving them no reason to think their current public relations is even bad.

Remember, asian culture is huge on Face. We want to make sure that, if they work with us (or at least the way we want), we reward them by saving and even enhancing their Face, preferably while gaining some of our own. It will make Titan Networks and all involved have more clout in the future in similar circumstances.

Yeah, and if presuming NCSoft changes its mind on the issue, I would be happy to stop my boycott of their products. And if that helps them 'save face', by all means, let them extol it as a victory or whatever over us, if that's what they have to do. I'll have the game I want, and they'll have the money or the loss of the negative PR they want, depending on how that goes down.

But there's a strong sentiment that we have to allow them to 'save face' even while or after they bury CoH, and I don't frankly get that. If their face is only savable in a situation where both CoH is buried AND they continue to get my money as tithes as if I'm obligated to give it to them, then frankly their face's price is too steep for my taste.

chasearcanum

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #83 on: September 28, 2012, 12:17:54 AM »
But there's a strong sentiment that we have to allow them to 'save face' even while or after they bury CoH, and I don't frankly get that. If their face is only savable in a situation where both CoH is buried AND they continue to get my money as tithes as if I'm obligated to give it to them, then frankly their face's price is too steep for my taste.

NCSoft's goal here is to minimize bad press and capitalize on the good press.  They already had decided it was worth taking a financial loss by killing a profitable game, so any monetary incentive they gain here is something they were previously willing to write off.  Money alone is not going to sway them.  Face is the currency that matters now.

Right now, we're gaining credibility among the news sites for being a level-headed community that's done things to show gratitude to the devs, etc.  We've shrugged off much of the stereotype of the self-entitled-rabid gamer that has plagued gaming communities that throw tantrums.  We've shown that we possess one of the rarest elements in all of the internet - patience. 

We're also showing organization, camaraderie, and an ability to influence others in the wider gaming community.  We're showing our strength, and that means NCSoft can also see some of what we can bring to play if things go negative.  We're playing nice & friendly, but we're keeping double-barreled shotgun in full view.

NCSoft on the other hand, should know that they have a rare opportunity here.   Had we unloaded both barrels at them, then NO action on their part would have undone the damage we'd caused.  They'd just stay the course.  They expected a barrage of negativity, after all.  By showing a reasonable side,  they may see a window of opportunity here-  heck, they could even play hero here-- proudly announcing a deal that keeps City of Heroes alive (somewhere else) and celebrating the great community that banded together to make this possible- making OUR wave of positive press their own.   

Stand firm, be polite, and keep that shotgun handy, but remember that the moment we fire both barrels-- however good it may feel-- the fight is over.

Segev

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #84 on: September 28, 2012, 03:59:41 AM »
Not having grown up in an Asian culture, I cannot profess to be an expert on how, exactly, the nuances of Face-saving work. However, I have seen more than a few Asian stories wherein the man-with-the-power was truly moved by the dedication of the heroes who were, effectively, in our position. By announcing how moved he was, he was shown not to be a villain, but merely a man who was very important and thus did not know of the trouble until it was brought to his attention. In delivering what was asked, he took part in the heroes' glory; they brought word to him against all odds, and he magnanimously and wisely recognized the right course of action to dispense aid.

Generosity is a virtue that gives those who display it publicly significant Face. What we need to do, to enable NCSoft to gain from this if they work with us, is ensure that they have room to say, "Oh! We are glad you showed us how much you care! We are pleased to side with you and see that your hard work is rewarded!" in such a way that they can, as was stated by others, "play the hero." Or, rather, play the guardian angel that sets all to right for the hero after the hero has done all he can.

RedWolfeXR

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #85 on: October 04, 2012, 03:49:44 PM »
So this was only about a year ago, huh?  Interesting.

It triggered layoffs and restructuring in the US side of NC Soft.  It very likely soured NC Soft to dealing with the West.  So indirectly it may have affected CoH.  (and very likely Wildstar -- it may be the next casualty)

The resignation letter wasn't the issue in Garriot's case -- read the actual complaint, Kotoku posted it as I recall.  The issue was they decided to characterize the separation as a termination which triggered a 30 day liquidation for all the stock in his similar-to-options program.  They basically told him to sell it or forfeit.  So he had to sell, his argument was that it was a bad time to sell.

A pretty healthy amount of stock held by someone they had just dumped...  I can see why they wanted to DO it.  It just violated his contract.  The public "letter" was within their lattitude, since it was PR.  It wasn't a letter with his actual signature -- and had no legal standing.

I beta tested and played TR.  NC decided to sever its relationship with the Garriots (Richards brother Jason was the head of NC Soft US - but he didn't sue, maybe he was handled better or just had a thicker skin)   "Lord British" always did have a 'tude.  :)

RedWolfeXR

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #86 on: October 05, 2012, 12:26:46 AM »
I have the sources from court rulings from the Appeal.
  • Richard Garriotts brother is called Robert and not Jason.
  • Richard Garriott signed and approved the letter that was put up as his announcement of leaving the company, he didn't however sign the resignation letter that NCsoft had drafted for him.
RICHARD GARRIOTT v. NCSOFT CORPORATION appeals ruling

The important thing here, and what was actually the crux of the court case, was if he was fired or if he resigned. The most important part for the court case was the letter to management,  That is where all of the legal wrangling was involved. You are correct about the letter to the players, it was just a PR letter if nothing else. Something to explain to the players *something* about what was happening. He did approve and sign it though.

According to the original court ruling (go to top of page 5) Robert Garriott was able to sell his options in July and August 2009 without being forced to do so.[/list]

Ah, thats what happens when I go by memory...  sorry Robert...  (wonder where I got Jason from)

I read the original filing that Garriott made, which was what I was going by.  Indeed, it was all about whether he was fired or not.  That was what I said even if not so well.  :)  I should have read the appeal as well, but since the original finding was upheld I didn't read NC's counter.

The one thing that wasn't very clear at the time was whether it was Robert that had to fire Richard or whether he was already out.   At the time it was fairly obvious to all of us POed TR players that DG was getting the big boot and since it had been both brothers company that it was probably both.  Only Richard made a stink and posted his side (via the court docs).

Up until that filing we had hoped that DG would keep the TR code and be able to publish it elsewhere. 


TimtheEnchanter

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #87 on: October 07, 2012, 05:14:10 AM »
Just got shown some new NCsoft gamekiller memes. These are pretty funny.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=oa.161981810608757