Author Topic: Fool me Six Times!  (Read 25296 times)

Atlantea

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Fool me Six Times!
« on: September 25, 2012, 03:41:00 PM »
LOL... Check this out!

http://gamespeopleplay.smackjeeves.com/comics/1587704/fool-me-six-times/



I sense that my "MMO Killer" meme may have already been thought of by a few other gamers already. :D


EDIT: I wonder if I should post this back at the official COH Forums? Wonder how long it would take to get "Stalin-ized"?

StarRanger4

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2012, 03:42:55 PM »
Ahem.  Someone should post that on Wildstar's facebook page

*wink wink nudge nudge*

Omega Mark V

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2012, 03:44:52 PM »
*prod prod*

... *SHOVE*

Just kidding.

No really, that's a good idea.
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Atlantea

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2012, 03:45:29 PM »
I've already done my part. I'd like to maintain the "air of diplomacy" for my original post.

Not to say anybody else couldn't do it of course. :D


TimtheEnchanter

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2012, 03:48:27 PM »
Ugh... I didn't know that about Tabula Rasa and private servers. So on top of cutting thins off on whims, NC ALSO has a policy for fighting against community efforts to host private servers? Wonderful...  :roll:

emu265

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2012, 03:49:26 PM »
Haha, that's pretty good.  No clue that they were sued over forging a resignation letter.  That's pretty serious stuff.

Rae

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2012, 04:07:01 PM »
Oh, NC Soft. You still have time to make good by this. Please do. :-/
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eabrace

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2012, 04:23:52 PM »
Haha, that's pretty good.  No clue that they were sued over forging a resignation letter.  That's pretty serious stuff.
Not only did they lose that case for $28M, they appealed the decision and ended up owing $32M instead.
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TimtheEnchanter

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2012, 04:35:14 PM »
Well to be fair, they have always been fairly aggressive in the clamping down on private servers from what I have heard.

And as NCsoft *still* own the IP for their products, they *have* to protect them, because otherwise they get released into the public domain (brand dilution here).

*shrugs* It is especially important if the game is running, but *also* important if the game is no longer running. If they didn't do this, then that would mean that later on, someone else *could* release the game *officially* using the name and artwork of the game with nothing that NCsoft could do about it.

Say you personally made a game, and then for whatever reason you had to stop supporting it (any reason, it isnt important).

People then started releasing their own "versions" of the game (to save the community)
Then 10 years from now, say EA re-released the game and made a boat load of money from it.

You would be angry wouldn't you? Especially if EA *didn't* pay you a single penny for it.

But if you are saying that NCsoft are in the bad for this, this is what they are trying to stop. They are protecting their IP so that situations like this *cannot* happen.

If they want to crack down on it because it's making money, that'd be one thing. If they aren't going to do anything with the game then it SHOULD be fine. If years down the road, they decide to host an official game again, they can crack down on it. On the EA comment though... what are you implying? Nobody is going to be making money off of a private CoH server, and it certainly isn't going to lead to a western supercorp selling the game without paying royalties.

I've been thinking it for years now, but this shutdown has been the final straw. "Rights" sway WAY too far in favor of corporations. Is it their property? Sure. But we're the ones that make it possible for them to even do anything with their property. All their money and power comes from consumers. And to think that businesses will STILL kill things even when they're making money is just ridiculous. And I know very well why it's happening, NC is doing what everyone is doing, focusing on "mass-appeal" products. Mass-appeal, meaning you market only to what makes up the largest % of the audience. You know what that does? It tells anyone who isn't part of the majority that they're not worth marketing to. It tells us that World of Warcraft is the only type of MMO. It tells us that you can't have a successful romantic film unless you do something to make your lead actor look like Robert Pattinson. It tells girls above the age of 12 that if they want to be anything for Halloween besides a stripper, they need to make the costume at home. It tells us that every modern film MUST have hip hop music in it. Poisons exist in very edible product we buy from the food store simply because it makes the food more addicting. Big business it killing niche marketing, and as a result is leaving a LOT of people out in the cold. Modern capitalism is killing diversity, and the only way to change that is to shift the balance of power.

If NC later on decides they want the game "back", then fine. But keeping everyone in the dark just because someday they "might" want to make money off it again, just... no. Preventing non-profit private servers for a game with no official servers isn't "protecting" the IP. It's just being a bully.

Besides, if SOE, the quintessential super-tyrannical MMO developer, can manage to put up with player-projects of their old games... and SWGEMU was running WHILE the official servers were.

Codewalker

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2012, 04:49:30 PM »
And as NCsoft *still* own the IP for their products, they *have* to protect them, because otherwise they get released into the public domain (brand dilution here).

You're thinking of trademark, where that is the case. If someone uses the name and they don't protect it, and it passes into common usage as a result, they could lose it.

Copyright, on the other hand, is not subject to that rule. You can sit on something for 20 years while people upload thousands of copies of something to ultramegatorrentzdawg.com, then one day suddenly decide you want to start suing them over it. It's still infringement and you can't lose your rights through inaction.

QuantumHero

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2012, 05:00:23 PM »
Oh NcSoft you HAVE a PR problem...you have a large growing and geting very, very angry PR problem.  We need a show of faith I'm holding the redsider back by will alone right now.  We are goin to save this game you assholes...now we can help you redeem this increasingly tarnished reputation or we can make sure that you are known as the Game Killer and the enemy...and we will relish the day when your corporaton falls.  What you do not seem to understand is the choice is not hope or despair...it is hope or revenge. >:(

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Rae

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2012, 05:04:55 PM »
If some lovely gaming journalist *coughcoughBree* is reading this... an article about NC Soft the MMO killer would be totally awesome right now.
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Technerdoc

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2012, 05:13:12 PM »
Oh, this picture is just great. I will never ever be such a fool to buy or play any NC-Soft game again. City of Heroes was my first online game, I had fun with it and friends there. Of course you hear this when they closed Auto Assault and Tabula Rasa, the other games wasn't that popular that I notice it in the press, but you always was thinking: "Whatever, this can't happen to us". When it hit's you then it hit's you hard and I can just warn in playing Wildstar. You finally found a game that is fun and you like to play, you have characters and friends there you like to play with and suddenly everything is over.

I will never forget this and I have a good memory...

Zolgar

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2012, 05:52:45 PM »
And they axed 2 other games in the South Korean market, those games still run because NCSoft only held the SK servers.

>.>

4 of 14 MMO listed as shut down on Wikipedia were canned by NCSoft, and it's soon to be 5/15.

Technerdoc

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2012, 06:10:44 PM »
I mean... I have no problem in shuting a game down after 8 years, but the way how they do this is an absolutly no-go. First they fire the entire team quickly that they haven't a chance to do an end-event or just give them a chance to think about how they can save the game and then they kicked the community right between the legs with ignoring everything what they do to save the game and in saying, "So, dudes everything is gone until 30. Nov, thanks but we want to do other things!", That's not the way how I want to do buisness with them in future...

Victoria Victrix

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2012, 01:07:40 AM »
And I was actually going to buy Wildstar because it looked like fun.

Obviously Black Friday put an end to that idea.

This meme really needs to spread.  #NCSOFTMMOKILLER
I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido

Epelesker

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2012, 01:19:47 AM »
And I was actually going to buy Wildstar because it looked like fun.

Obviously Black Friday put an end to that idea.

This meme really needs to spread.  #NCSOFTMMOKILLER
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DrakeGrimm

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2012, 01:27:30 AM »
Yeah. I never got the logic here. We're a city of heroes and villains. Did they think we were just going to roll over? >.>;
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chaparralshrub

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2012, 02:01:40 AM »
I'm seriously wondering what kind of anti-trust legislation could be brought against NC.

Victoria Victrix

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2012, 02:08:52 AM »
I'm seriously wondering what kind of anti-trust legislation could be brought against NC.

Realistically speaking, anti-trust legislation is difficult to get through the legislature in the current political climate, and would take years and years and years. 

An anti-trust suit would be...a nightmare.  Trying to sue a company headquartered outside the US, not subject to US regulations, trying to prove there was anything "anti-trust" about them shutting down a game they owned...seriously, not practical.  And they have lots of lawyers.  We have zilch.  Expensive does not even begin to describe what this process would be.  And it would take years and years and years.

Our best bet is to convince them that this is getting to be a serious, worth dealing with, PR nightmare, and the best way to get us to shut up and go away is to release the IP to someone else.
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Segev

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2012, 02:09:47 AM »
None. They're not engaging in monopolistic practices. You're perfectly free to make superhero MMOs to compete with or even replace CoH, as long as you don't copy their work without their permission. "Their work" includes a lot of design and feel stuff.

ukaserex

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2012, 02:22:39 AM »
Well....given NCSoft's location, and it's focus is on where they make the money, the only way I see to make them listen to reason is to ask our Korean gaming friends to start expressing themselves. Sadly, I don't know Korean, nor any Koreans.

If that market were to put up a fuss, it might get their attention a little bit quicker.

However, I know this isn't a direct parallel, but didn't our European players suffer about a year ago some kind of support issue? Something about basically being grouped up with the rest of the servers and support being pulled (in their native language)- a few of us tried to help them via a small protest, but in a nutshell, it was simply economics.
Maybe if we'd put up more of a fuss then, they might have rethought this silly move. <shrug>

To the OP: you summed things up well. It would be nice to see this in a lot of different places.
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Victoria Victrix

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2012, 02:24:59 AM »
The ONLY anti-trust suit you could make would be (DISCLAIMER: NOBODY HAS AND THERE IS NOT A SHRED OF EVIDENCE) if someone discovered hard evidence that, say, DC or Marvel paid or exerted some other pressure on NCSoft to cancel CoH.  But that would be against the offending party, not NCSoft.  And there is not one molecule of evidence, not a hint of evidence, not a whisper of a rumor that anything of that sort took place.

No, this was NCSoft "business as usual, all games are alike, go play this one, you sheep" behavior.
I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido

Teege

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2012, 02:40:30 AM »
I'm not sure how much the players in Korea worship NCsoft, but taking things to their homeland (even if online) could prove to be interesting.
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Colette

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2012, 03:11:03 AM »
Okay... I posted about this just last night. We have "ongoing negotiations" that are fragile. If we cross the Rubicon and start really hurting NC-Soft's reputation, it will seal City of Heroes' fate.

Believe me, I loathe NC-Soft too. I'm so mad I could spit venom. I'm just itching for us to say our fill and get it translated into Korean. Heck, I was mad the day Jack Emmert announced City of Heroes was sold overseas in the first place.

Rant here, you are warned. We likely wouldn't be in this fix if this was a Western company that gave a rat's about keeping Western customers or obeying Western business laws and practices, and to heck with all of you who think that's racist. Saying, "we wanna focus our business in our home country, don't let the door hit you on the way out, Joe. Oh, and thanks for buying Nature Mastery three days before we kicked you out..." that is racism in action! (Having said that, I've been to Korea and everyone I met there was way cool, so call off the P.C. dogs.)

There. I feel a little better now. Anyway,  this is a decision that V V and Tony need to make, not us.

Let's keep it together, people.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 03:16:09 AM by Colette »

Victoria Victrix

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2012, 03:44:02 AM »
Pressure yes.

War, no.  No war until Nov 30--or until NCSoft says "We're not selling, neener neener."
I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2012, 03:46:56 AM »
The ONLY anti-trust suit you could make would be (DISCLAIMER: NOBODY HAS AND THERE IS NOT A SHRED OF EVIDENCE) if someone discovered hard evidence that, say, DC or Marvel paid or exerted some other pressure on NCSoft to cancel CoH.  But that would be against the offending party, not NCSoft.  And there is not one molecule of evidence, not a hint of evidence, not a whisper of a rumor that anything of that sort took place.

No, this was NCSoft "business as usual, all games are alike, go play this one, you sheep" behavior.

Heh... if Disney had just bought Marvel this year, my eyebrow would be WAAAAAYYY up....

Mantic

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2012, 04:12:52 AM »
Good meme.  8)
« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 03:40:17 AM by Mantic »

Flamazing Sally

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2012, 02:34:56 PM »
NCsoft the MMO Killer.   OMG, this is genius.  Talk about a PR nightmare...   I have sent new letters & emails....with this slogan and the reasons for it....to NCsoft and their PR firm. 

RogerWilco

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2012, 02:56:52 PM »
latter should be letter I think.

I don't think now is the time for this. If they kill CoH, then they might have rightfully earned this title. Not all of those titles can be compared although what they did with Tabula Rasa seems to have been very weird.

Atlantea

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2012, 04:31:40 PM »
I respectfully disagree. Now IS the time for this.

It's time to make things UNCOMFORTABLE. They had better understand that this is only the beginning.

If they don't want to do business in the Western Market. Then fine. We'll simply slam the door on their ass on the way out and make it so that they can never come back.

We can't stop them from making money on Guild Wars 2.

We can't stop them from attempting to port Blade and Soul here. (Though I think it will fail as badly as Aion)

We can't stop Wildstar from being released (and I hope it is released someday, but not under NCSoft.)

But we CAN make things so hot for them in the Western Gaming World (WGW - there's a quick acronym for ya) that no studio will ever CONSIDER going to them ever again.

THAT is the threat.

NCSoft can end that threat. All they have to do is come out of the bunker. They think that staying in the bunker will make this all go away.

We have to disabuse them of that idea. We have to change the rules of the game. We have to let them know that staying in the bunker will cost them.

Zolgar

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2012, 05:03:29 PM »
But we CAN make things so hot for them in the Western Gaming World (WGW - there's a quick acronym for ya) that no studio will ever CONSIDER going to them ever again.

You overestimate our power.
We're a grassroots movement that's reached (and gotten the attention of) somewhere around 20,000-30,000 people probably- even if we assume that 100% of those that we reach will never touch another NCSoft game, that's barely a drop in a bucket in the US. For us to be a credible threat in that department, we'd have to multiply the number of people who would actually stick to their guns and "boycott" NCSoft by at least 10 fold. We'd need several hundred thousand people who would actually never buy another NCSoft game again..

And let me tell you something about gamers when it comes to boycotting:
They talk a good talk, but maybe 10% of those that say "I am boycotting X game" (or X company) will actually stick to that for any amount of time. Right now our numbers might be higher, but if we spread in to the hundreds of thousands, then.. we're getting the mass-market gamers.

DrakeGrimm

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2012, 05:22:08 PM »
You overestimate our power.
We're a grassroots movement that's reached (and gotten the attention of) somewhere around 20,000-30,000 people probably- even if we assume that 100% of those that we reach will never touch another NCSoft game, that's barely a drop in a bucket in the US. For us to be a credible threat in that department, we'd have to multiply the number of people who would actually stick to their guns and "boycott" NCSoft by at least 10 fold. We'd need several hundred thousand people who would actually never buy another NCSoft game again..

And let me tell you something about gamers when it comes to boycotting:
They talk a good talk, but maybe 10% of those that say "I am boycotting X game" (or X company) will actually stick to that for any amount of time. Right now our numbers might be higher, but if we spread in to the hundreds of thousands, then.. we're getting the mass-market gamers.

Just a point here. If CoH goes dark and can't be saved, there's going to be a large number of us, very angry, and with a ton of newly discovered free time on our hands. Wonder how big a 'splash' we can make over the course of the next six months, to a year. Look at what we've done in a few weeks.
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TimtheEnchanter

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2012, 05:38:34 PM »
And let me tell you something about gamers when it comes to boycotting:They talk a good talk, but maybe 10% of those that say "I am boycotting X game" (or X company) will actually stick to that for any amount of time. Right now our numbers might be higher, but if we spread in to the hundreds of thousands, then.. we're getting the mass-market gamers.

SOE still hasn't been able to get the blood of the NGE off their hands...

Segev

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2012, 05:45:23 PM »
Out of curiosity, how many subscribers DOES CoH have? Can anybody give a ballpark estimate?

Turjan

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2012, 06:07:57 PM »
SOE still hasn't been able to get the blood of the NGE off their hands...
This is true, and I still don't forgive them for that. But in their defence (...jeez, did I really just say that?) they're still keeping Everquest alive, and releasing updates for it. And about SWG and the SWG Emulator, Wiki's SWG page has this interesting snippet :-

Quote from: Wiki
[reddit] Q: Can you finally come clean about the decisions that were made regarding SWG? Mainly the CU and NGE?
[John Smedley, President of SOE] A: Sure. Stupid decisions. Complete and utter fail and I am very sorry.
[reddit] Q: How does SOE feel about SWGEmu?
[Smedley] A: Well officially I have to say it's bad. But that's officially.

-so that raises SOE waaaaaaay above NCSoft in my book. Even if they did kill SWG, and even if part of me still hasn't forgiven them for that and never will. But at least they learned from it, something I fear NCSoft never will.

TBH I fear nothing we do can change NCSoft's mind, but that doesn't mean we should stop trying. And if, at the end of the day, they bury CoH and give us the finger, then we owe it to all MMO customers, both existing and future, to warn them off this company because I don't want people to have to go through the heartache we have right now. It is our duty. And if NCSoft won't change, then it's a certainty there will be more heartache for others in the future.

Atlantea

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #39 on: September 26, 2012, 06:16:44 PM »
Even if they did kill SWG, and even if part of me still hasn't forgiven them for that and never will. But at least they learned from it, something I fear NCSoft never will.

TBH I fear nothing we do can change NCSoft's mind, but that doesn't mean we should stop trying. And if, at the end of the day, they bury CoH and give us the finger, then we owe it to all MMO customers, both existing and future, to warn them off this company because I don't want people to have to go through the heartache we have right now. It is our duty. And if NCSoft won't change, then it's a certainty there will be more heartache for others in the future.

Well said. Well said indeed.

One thing that still amazes me - that people think that SOE killed SWG - I think they equate the NGE with the end of SWG. When in truth, based on how they've treated their other MMOs like Everquest, SOE would gladly have run it for perpetuity. It's just that Lucasarts FORCED them to pull it. They had no choice.

And yeah - a company that's willing to learn from its mistakes is leagues above one that stubbornly REFUSES to.

Segev

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #40 on: September 26, 2012, 06:25:39 PM »
You know, I've never really wanted to be a telepath. It just hasn't been an interesting power to me. But in real life, there is a lot I would give for the ability to simply understand what people think their reasons for doing things are. I hate not understanding why people take what, to me, seem to be utterly foolish actions and positions.

chaparralshrub

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #41 on: September 26, 2012, 06:27:48 PM »
Actually, I would like to see the U.S. legislature smash NCSoft with Theodore Roosevelt's anti-trust legislation if this really does go through.

Segev

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #42 on: September 26, 2012, 06:29:36 PM »
Actually, I would like to see the U.S. legislature smash NCSoft with Theodore Roosevelt's anti-trust legislation if this really does go through.
Ugh. Not only is this entirely an incorrect application of anti-trust law, but it's destructive to the potential of any company daring to try to run something like CoH ever again.

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #43 on: September 26, 2012, 07:49:08 PM »
I'm of a mixed opinion about South Korea.

What sucks: NCSoft, Nexon, Samsung (try getting warranty service on your Galaxy SIII without your phone company's help, and you'll quickly agree with this sentiment), their Manga (Man-wa, as they call it.)
What rocks: Their food (Kimchi, Korean BBQ, etc), their movies, not to mention the fact that although they're living right next door to a dictatorship they still manage to keep their heads up.  If America shared a physical border with China, I don't think we'd act the same way at all.

Just wanted to point out my issue is with NCSoft, not with Eastern/Western MMO populations.  I don't oppose Korean-made games in the US (MMO or otherwise), just as long as it's not from NCSoft/Nexon... but I'm not going to tell people to stop playing those titles until COH actually is 100% offline.  Call me optimistic, but there's still time for NCSoft to right itself.  Closer to November, I'll change my tune.

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #44 on: September 26, 2012, 07:55:33 PM »
If you're looking to turn this into a meme, link it to the "fear is the mind killer" speech from Dune for added pop culture geek-cred.
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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #45 on: September 26, 2012, 08:07:25 PM »
If you're looking to turn this into a meme, link it to the "fear is the mind killer" speech from Dune for added pop culture geek-cred.

Ok...?  I'm not quite sure I follow you here? I mean - I KNOW the reference... But...

Fear is the mind killer

NCSoft is the MMO Killer

Okay. The cadence is about right. I guess we'd need a modification of the rest of the verse.


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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #46 on: September 26, 2012, 08:09:16 PM »
I'll take a stab...

I will not support NCsoft.
NCsoft is the MMO-killer.
NCsoft is the little-death that brings total obliteration
To the games it owns.
I must watch it pass over me and ignore me.
And when it has gone past I will turn back to play the MMO I love,
But where NCsoft has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #47 on: September 26, 2012, 08:14:25 PM »
It's just that Lucasarts FORCED them to pull it. They had no choice.

That doesn't surprise me, after I heard how they forced Obsidian to release KOTOR2 when it wasn't complete yet, I worry about each development studio that has to deal with those jerks.

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #48 on: September 26, 2012, 08:35:08 PM »
I think it was more like EA forced LA and then LA forced SOE.

EA has a no-competition clause in their contract with LA for the production of Star Wars MMO's until who the heck knows when.

It's the NFL/John Madden BS all over again.

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #49 on: September 26, 2012, 08:40:28 PM »
I'll take a stab...

I will not support NCsoft.
NCsoft is the MMO-killer.
NCsoft is the little-death that brings total obliteration
To the games it owns.
I must watch it pass over me and ignore me.
And when it has gone past I will turn back to play the MMO I love,
But where NCsoft has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.
This requires me getting a screenshot of my main character giving the thumbs up with the words "B. SAMSON APPROVED" stamped on it.  :)
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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #50 on: September 26, 2012, 11:34:56 PM »
Just a point here. If CoH goes dark and can't be saved, there's going to be a large number of us, very angry, and with a ton of newly discovered free time on our hands. Wonder how big a 'splash' we can make over the course of the next six months, to a year. Look at what we've done in a few weeks.

Yeah, but gamers never stick to their boycotts. Especially not ones who are not personally invested in the cause of the boycott.

If EVERY CoH subscriber were to cut all ties to NCSoft, they probably still wouldn't take notice.
If in a year, we could get a massive 'boycott' of NCSoft put together, it would only hold out, really, until their next new shiny released in the US, then all the sheep gamers would go "ooh, shiny!" and run out and buy it, leaving it just the people who really have any stake in the fight.. which in a years time, how many people will still be as vehement about it as they are now?

And even then.. let's just say we somehow managed to by some miracle.. create such a boycott that it caused NCSoft to lose all their NA market.
First of all, bye-bye Arena.Net, additionally all NA NCSoft offices would be closed, any other NA based developer they have would be let go.. so basically, because of our actions, lots of innocent bystanders would lose their jobs. For what? To make a point and cost NCSoft less than 10% of their income?

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #51 on: September 27, 2012, 03:34:41 AM »
Stay on target.

Target: Since NCSoft is committed to closing CoH, pressure NCSoft to release the IP to someone who will support it.
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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #52 on: September 27, 2012, 03:45:56 AM »
Ugh. Not only is this entirely an incorrect application of anti-trust law, but it's destructive to the potential of any company daring to try to run something like CoH ever again.

Point. Comment retracted, at least until it is evident that there never will be something like CoH ever again. Then, well, I'll hold my peace.

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #53 on: September 27, 2012, 03:57:20 AM »
And even then.. let's just say we somehow managed to by some miracle.. create such a boycott that it caused NCSoft to lose all their NA market.
First of all, bye-bye Arena.Net, additionally all NA NCSoft offices would be closed, any other NA based developer they have would be let go.. so basically, because of our actions, lots of innocent bystanders would lose their jobs. For what? To make a point and cost NCSoft less than 10% of their income?

Those are acceptable losses.

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #54 on: September 27, 2012, 04:01:02 AM »
Yeah, but gamers never stick to their boycotts. Especially not ones who are not personally invested in the cause of the boycott.

If EVERY CoH subscriber were to cut all ties to NCSoft, they probably still wouldn't take notice.
If in a year, we could get a massive 'boycott' of NCSoft put together, it would only hold out, really, until their next new shiny released in the US, then all the sheep gamers would go "ooh, shiny!" and run out and buy it, leaving it just the people who really have any stake in the fight.. which in a years time, how many people will still be as vehement about it as they are now

Heh... you think this just applies to gamers?

And even when it's something even more important... such as blatant rights violations (think EA's Origin software, which gives them the right to download your entire hard drive if they feel its in their best interests). That had a boycott. Origin still has over 10 million users.

Though their stocks dropped like a stone this year, but apparently that is due to overspending on SWTOR. That's the theory anyhow.

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #55 on: September 27, 2012, 04:50:14 AM »
Heh... you think this just applies to gamers?

And even when it's something even more important... such as blatant rights violations (think EA's Origin software, which gives them the right to download your entire hard drive if they feel its in their best interests). That had a boycott. Origin still has over 10 million users.

Though their stocks dropped like a stone this year, but apparently that is due to overspending on SWTOR. That's the theory anyhow.
A boycott of a company only has as much weight as their actual customers who partake in the boycott. NCSoft's customers are gamers. Non-gamers involved in the boycott.

Otherwise, you're making my point for me: even a MASSIVE boycott over something far more "important" than "an old game being retired" doesn't hardly phase a company. -my extreme case example was more of "absolute best case scenario for getting a powerful enough boycott that they take notice". which we just don't have the power and reach to do.

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #56 on: September 27, 2012, 04:54:44 AM »
Boycott?  Probably wouldn't make any difference to them.

Tainting future products?  From this very post, it is clear that is happening, and I don't think the voices are going to be silenced. 

Picture the gamer with $X to spare.  Two new shinies out.  This one is supported by a solid company that keeps its old warhorses alive as long as there is interest.  That one has a history of yanking games out from under customers--and resorting to outright fraud and forgery (Tabula Rasa) to do so.  Five out of their twelve games, in fact....not good odds.

I know where my money would go.
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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #57 on: September 27, 2012, 04:59:28 AM »
I think the point here, is that they're the ones scorching the earth.



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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #58 on: September 27, 2012, 05:02:04 AM »
A boycott of a company only has as much weight as their actual customers who partake in the boycott. NCSoft's customers are gamers. Non-gamers involved in the boycott.

Otherwise, you're making my point for me: even a MASSIVE boycott over something far more "important" than "an old game being retired" doesn't hardly phase a company. -my extreme case example was more of "absolute best case scenario for getting a powerful enough boycott that they take notice". which we just don't have the power and reach to do.

Yeah, I'm agreeing with you. I just don't think this problem only exists on the internet. No matter how organized people are, the general populous can never hope to be as organized as a corporation. And the fools are always the largest demographic in human society, so while the people who know what's up, are out there fighting, the "sheep" are just going to keep doing whatever it is that marketing tell them to. And if not for that reason, than because it's just easier to just keep shopping wherever you have been, instead of putting yourself at an inconvenience for potentially years in order to "siege" an immoral company.

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #59 on: September 27, 2012, 05:04:49 AM »
Boycott?  Probably wouldn't make any difference to them.

Tainting future products?  From this very post, it is clear that is happening, and I don't think the voices are going to be silenced. 

Picture the gamer with $X to spare.  Two new shinies out.  This one is supported by a solid company that keeps its old warhorses alive as long as there is interest.  That one has a history of yanking games out from under customers--and resorting to outright fraud and forgery (Tabula Rasa) to do so.  Five out of their twelve games, in fact....not good odds.

I know where my money would go.

You are absolutely, positively right..

The problem is.. how wide is our reach really? Maybe .. 20% of the NA gamers who would otherwise pick up an NCSoft game will decide not to? So we cost them another.. ~1.5-2% of their annual income? They probably won't even notice the fluctuation. :(

Too much of the game industry doesn't pay attention to publishers.. hell they don't even pay much heed to developers outside of "OMG it's Valve/Bethesda/Blizzard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111oneone"*fanboygasm*

I probably won't do another NCSoft MMO again, I'm not positive if I'll even do another P2P anytime soon. It's a safe bet that a lot of the people REALLY ingrained in the fight to save CoH will not buy from NCSoft again, and I am sure there will be a percentage who will see NCSoft's track record, and will at least think long and hard about picking up another of their games. Is that number going to be enough to even cause a blip on NCSoft's radar though?

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #60 on: September 27, 2012, 05:08:17 AM »
Well, I'll be honest. There is one game that I can think of that NCSoft might make at some point in the future, and I'd grab it and play it in a heartbeat. And I don't think I even need to tell you what it's title would be.

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #61 on: September 27, 2012, 05:08:38 AM »
My reason for not going near NC again, as much as I'm angry with them over this, isn't because of CoH specifically. It's because when you keep dating crazy people who dump you after a month, the best solution is to stop dating crazy people. NC can't be trusted to keep a game going, even if it's still profiting.

Well, I'll be honest. There is one game that I can think of that NCSoft might make at some point in the future, and I'd grab it and play it in a heartbeat. And I don't think I even need to tell you what it's title would be.

If they were smart about it... instead of canning PS, all they needed to do was tell them to halt all development on CoH and start working on... THAT.

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #62 on: September 27, 2012, 07:01:00 AM »
Yeah, but gamers never stick to their boycotts. Especially not ones who are not personally invested in the cause of the boycott.

If EVERY CoH subscriber were to cut all ties to NCSoft, they probably still wouldn't take notice.
If in a year, we could get a massive 'boycott' of NCSoft put together, it would only hold out, really, until their next new shiny released in the US, then all the sheep gamers would go "ooh, shiny!" and run out and buy it, leaving it just the people who really have any stake in the fight.. which in a years time, how many people will still be as vehement about it as they are now?

And even then.. let's just say we somehow managed to by some miracle.. create such a boycott that it caused NCSoft to lose all their NA market.
First of all, bye-bye Arena.Net, additionally all NA NCSoft offices would be closed, any other NA based developer they have would be let go.. so basically, because of our actions, lots of innocent bystanders would lose their jobs. For what? To make a point and cost NCSoft less than 10% of their income?

This gamer will avoid NCSoft

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #63 on: September 27, 2012, 07:42:58 AM »
Let me put it this way.

As much as people bash on PWI saying that the fact they've kept all their games alive, even their older ones counts for nothing...

As of November 30th NCSoft will have officially killed off 5/15 MMOs that have died. One third of them.

I for one think the MMO-Killer title is deserved. SOE may let their games slowly rot away in Maintenance Mode hell but NCSoft kills them outright. A boycott probably won't matter so much because they pulled the plug on CoH after GW2 was released and because of the way Guild Wars and GW2 work - buy and play free forever it won't matter how many people stop playing. You've still bought the game, you've still handed over your money.

Where a Boycott will hurt them is their new releases, which don't look to be coming out before CoH sunsets. If there was one coming out beforehand that would be where we could make the hardest impact - negative press and reputation would cause a boycott of Game X, they'd step back and have to look at what they're planning to close.

What gets me is the fact they did this about a week after GW2 coming out. Crafty Gits milked pre-order and day of release purchases before kicking half the population in the teeth.

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #64 on: September 27, 2012, 08:40:34 AM »
Personally, I'm partial to the #ncsoftmmokiller meme approach, but I'm not sure how it should be used.

The thing to remember is that memes have the potential to be immensely powerful, bypassing corporate suppression methods by spreading through popular culture, but as with most powerful things, they are just as unpredictable. That said, while NCsoft is well on its way to have earned that title, it might not help save CoH. Render retribution, should it become unsaveable, I certainly hope so, but essentially, it would be an opening shot in an all-out war.

This, again, assuming the meme catches on to begin with. That said, it would have several factors going in its favor - gamers might arguably form the internet's most active demographic and rallying for the underdog {or better still, a martyr} in the face of a faceless corporation is something that appeals to a lot of people, even those who haven't been playing to begin with. And we can't exactly go to NCsoft saying, "let someone responsible buy the City of Heroes IP or we'll release pictures painting you as 'the MMO killer' on the internet". Even if it didn't come off as ridiculously desperate, I'm pretty sure it would be legally fuzzy and definitely unethical.

So, I dunno. It's really only applicable once NCsoft has earned the title, and by that point it'll already be too late to change anything.

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #65 on: September 27, 2012, 11:02:19 AM »
So, I dunno. It's really only applicable once NCsoft has earned the title, and by that point it'll already be too late to change anything.

Will it? I ask that sincerely. Even if the game shuts down on December 1, as scheduled, the servers will still be around for a bit. I'd have to imagine they'll keep a backup of the code--storage costs almost nothing, and the data itself could be invaluable. If nothing else, the IP can still be sold even if all the data is gone and the game is rendered down to nothing.
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Zolgar

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #66 on: September 27, 2012, 11:05:12 AM »
Let me put it this way.

As much as people bash on PWI saying that the fact they've kept all their games alive, even their older ones counts for nothing...

As of November 30th NCSoft will have officially killed off 5/15 MMOs that have died. One third of them.

I for one think the MMO-Killer title is deserved. SOE may let their games slowly rot away in Maintenance Mode hell but NCSoft kills them outright. A boycott probably won't matter so much because they pulled the plug on CoH after GW2 was released and because of the way Guild Wars and GW2 work - buy and play free forever it won't matter how many people stop playing. You've still bought the game, you've still handed over your money.

Where a Boycott will hurt them is their new releases, which don't look to be coming out before CoH sunsets. If there was one coming out beforehand that would be where we could make the hardest impact - negative press and reputation would cause a boycott of Game X, they'd step back and have to look at what they're planning to close.

What gets me is the fact they did this about a week after GW2 coming out. Crafty Gits milked pre-order and day of release purchases before kicking half the population in the teeth.

Unfortunately, GW2 is still growing. Sales were so high that they had to temporary disable sales so they could get their servers improved to be able to handle the massive influx of players. It's over 2 million units sold and counting.

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #67 on: September 27, 2012, 11:12:12 AM »
Unfortunately, GW2 is still growing. Sales were so high that they had to temporary disable sales so they could get their servers improved to be able to handle the massive influx of players. It's over 2 million units sold and counting.
True, but NCSoft share prices have dropped back again since the quick hit given by those initial 2 million sales because all the mad overhype and marketing seems to have left shareholders thinking the game would've sold 6 million copies by now, not a 'mere' 2 million.

The stock market eh? *shrug*

Bizarrely, businesses like NCSoft often don't regard sales/profits as the benchmark for success, but rather what their current share price is. They think more of shareholder confidence than they do of whatever products they actually have out there in the marketplace.

And it's thinking like that which leads to decisions like the one to close CoH. There's no logic to it, other than the desire not to lose face on the stock market by letting your shareholders down.

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #68 on: September 27, 2012, 11:15:01 AM »
Anyway...back on the subject of memes and such, here's a little something I penned in a moment of literary contemplation ;)

For want of a share price, CoH was lost.
For want of CoH the community was lost.
For want of a community the foreign market was lost.
For want of a foreign market the new MMO was lost.
For want of a new MMO the investment was lost.
For want of investment the corporation was lost.
And all for the want of a shareholder price.

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #69 on: September 27, 2012, 11:16:48 AM »
Will it? I ask that sincerely. Even if the game shuts down on December 1, as scheduled, the servers will still be around for a bit. I'd have to imagine they'll keep a backup of the code--storage costs almost nothing, and the data itself could be invaluable. If nothing else, the IP can still be sold even if all the data is gone and the game is rendered down to nothing.

Because if the meme catches on, it'll be impossible to put it back into the bottle. NCsoft's image will be widely tarnished and they would probably view reacting to that as essentially setting a precedent as bowing to pressure, something that no company wants to be seen doing because opens them to more pressure.

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #70 on: September 27, 2012, 11:28:37 AM »
Because if the meme catches on, it'll be impossible to put it back into the bottle. NCsoft's image will be widely tarnished and they would probably view reacting to that as essentially setting a precedent as bowing to pressure, something that no company wants to be seen doing because opens them to more pressure.

The downside is that we can't force a meme. Ever. The internet can smell that, and the backlash would make us look bad. Instead of pushing a meme, think of it as sharing a blackly funny comic with friends that might be interested--former TR players, say. They probably know other former TR players, and maybe they know someone who is active in the new MMO's community. And so on.

But we can't go about this telling ourselves "we're going to make a meme."
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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #71 on: September 27, 2012, 11:49:04 AM »
Well, yeah, I probably could have phrased that better, but I don't really have a word for "a bunch of pictures and other creative stuff by former CoH players who hope that their creations will become interesting and, more importantly, entertaining enough to other people so that they feel like sharing some of them regardless of whether they played CoH."

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #72 on: September 27, 2012, 11:56:09 AM »
Unfortunately, GW2 is still growing. Sales were so high that they had to temporary disable sales so they could get their servers improved to be able to handle the massive influx of players. It's over 2 million units sold and counting.

It doesn't matter. As I said before - we can't stop them from making money off of Arenanet. We can't hurt them there. It's a non-issue.

I'm not even sure the #NCSoftMMOKiller Meme will have an effect on whether Wildstar will get released or not. I think we might have some impact - based on how far out their release date would be (they haven't even started Alpha Testing yet as far as I know, so it may be more than a year away from even Beta).

Best case scenario in my mind is that Carbine negotiates a buy-out deal with some other company and leverages it's way out of the clutches of NCSoft before they finish development of the game. Considering NCSoft appears (via those reports in the Glass Door papers) to want out of the western market and are on the verge of closing NCWest entirely, that may make the most sense for both NCSoft and Carbine in the long run. But that's pure speculation on my part.

As an aside - who even knows the logic behind NCSoft's decision-making any more? They don't appear to be acting with any kind of business logic at all that makes any sense.

I have a personal theory - and it is ONLY a theory, so keep that caveat in mind!

The theory is that what we're seeing is a company in the throes of an internal power struggle. One faction liked the western market and wanted to develop and support it and the other... doesn't. And the faction that wants to concentrate on the S.K. market is in ascendancy at the moment, but not fully in control either. Thus the schizophrenic nature of the moves this company is making.

But back to the topic at hand.

What is the #NCsoftMMOKiller meme good for then, if it doesn't help save City of Heroes?

It's simple - we take it as our goal to inform every gamer and potential game studio out there as often as possible about NCSoft and their practices. It is our DUTY to educate people so that this NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN.

It's not just vindictiveness for it's own sake. If we are truly heroes, then that implies SERVICE to the wider gaming community, not just our own. And the service in this case is to keep spreading our story. To let people know of what an injustice has been done - both to our game and our world and to the 80+ employees of Paragon Studios who were done wrong.

Ultimately it won't just be gamers who commonly know about it. It will be artists and programmers and developers and writers in the industry. Those game studios will know better than to get into a deal with NCSoft. In fact I'd wager that many in the industry are already WELL AWARE of the situation and making or modifying plans accordingly.

I don't want any other gaming community to suffer what we have. And they don't have to if they are educated. That's our job from here on out.

I recall recently seeing a tweet from Positron after the Unity rally that - if nothing else is accomplished, that one thing is certain, no other MMO will ever be shutdown in this way ever again.

And Vulpy - you're wrong. We're not forcing a meme to come into existence.

The perception of NCSoft as the MMO killer is already there. It's out there RIGHT NOW in the wider gaming community. There's no need whatsoever to "force it". NCSoft is doing a wonderful job of screwing themselves in that regard.

We're just taking note of the meme and giving it a NAME.

You're behind the curve -

To quote G'Kar - "When the avalanche has started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote."

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #73 on: September 27, 2012, 12:12:38 PM »
I am more a fan of two other G'kar quotes, which are oddly appropriate here, but totally different in meaning in this context:

"We're here!"

and

"I hear you!"

Atlantea

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #74 on: September 27, 2012, 12:23:30 PM »
I am more a fan of two other G'kar quotes, which are oddly appropriate here, but totally different in meaning in this context:

"We're here!"

and

"I hear you!"

Hehe...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQARSzT2lbo

That was an awesome scene, the two of them trapped in that elevator.


Osborn

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #75 on: September 27, 2012, 12:55:42 PM »
Our literal only legal options in dealing with a business like NCSoft (or really any of them, EA, Activision, etc.) is litigation (such as making the games illegal, legal or taxed, etc.), buying their games or not buying their games.

That is literally the only support or damnation we're truly capable of. Complaining can help them know what we want, yes, but that's about all it can do.

This unity rally, or these negative ads only matter insomuch as it shows people willing to buy or people unwilling to buy anymore. But a lot of us are saying that we can't boycott, that we have to buy and with the same confidence we did before the news.

But that's litrerally taking our only actual option to do anything off the table. If I go out and buy 4 copies of Guild Wars 2 because I don't want to hurt NCSoft's feelings then they have absolutely no reason to not keep CoH shut down. No, I wont be giving them my CoH money but they don't want that anymore or they would had left the game open.

I mean what even is negative press but a lot of people very angrily boycotting the product. We can't be like "Good the public is angry at their decision so now they'll very angrily throw piles of money at NCSoft! That'll learn 'em!"


cptbarcode

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #76 on: September 27, 2012, 01:36:37 PM »
I think the point here, is that they're the ones scorching the earth.



...we're just willing to salt it after.

"NCSoft delenda est" is the paraphrase I'm going for.

Segev

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #77 on: September 27, 2012, 01:51:38 PM »
Our literal only legal options in dealing with a business like NCSoft (or really any of them, EA, Activision, etc.) is litigation (such as making the games illegal, legal or taxed, etc.), buying their games or not buying their games.

That is literally the only support or damnation we're truly capable of. Complaining can help them know what we want, yes, but that's about all it can do.

This unity rally, or these negative ads only matter insomuch as it shows people willing to buy or people unwilling to buy anymore. But a lot of us are saying that we can't boycott, that we have to buy and with the same confidence we did before the news.

But that's litrerally taking our only actual option to do anything off the table. If I go out and buy 4 copies of Guild Wars 2 because I don't want to hurt NCSoft's feelings then they have absolutely no reason to not keep CoH shut down. No, I wont be giving them my CoH money but they don't want that anymore or they would had left the game open.

I mean what even is negative press but a lot of people very angrily boycotting the product. We can't be like "Good the public is angry at their decision so now they'll very angrily throw piles of money at NCSoft! That'll learn 'em!"
I'm honestly unsure what point you're trying to make here.

The whole point of bad press campaigns is to give them a PR nightmare, because a PR nightmare makes doing profitable business more difficult for the target.

It's not trying to salve anybody's feelings by making them buy GW2; that's foolish. In fact, the goal is, in part, to get people to hesitate before buying GW2 on the grounds that it could shut down entirely, just as suddenly.

The best option is for NCSoft to sell the IP to CoH; we want to make that a viable, attractive option that will instantly turn around any bad press we are generating. If and when that happens, it is imperative that we not trumpet it as a victory "over" NCSoft, but as a triumphant alliance that is a win for everybody.

Remember, asian culture is huge on Face. We want to make sure that, if they work with us (or at least the way we want), we reward them by saving and even enhancing their Face, preferably while gaining some of our own. It will make Titan Networks and all involved have more clout in the future in similar circumstances.

Atlantea

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #78 on: September 27, 2012, 06:11:20 PM »
"NCSoft delenda est" is the paraphrase I'm going for.

Hrm...  I know my Roman history enough to recognize where you got that. I think the usage of that phrase might be a -little- extreme in this case. Comparing NCSoft to Carthage and the ultimate fate of same is not exactly the angle I was going for there.


Vulpy

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #79 on: September 27, 2012, 06:44:47 PM »
To clarify my earlier comments: I might be a little skittish of the idea of consciously advancing a meme because of time spent reading flame wars on knowyourmeme.com. Some of you folks might be better at that sort of cat-herding than I am. If you are, have at it. :)
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cptbarcode

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #80 on: September 27, 2012, 11:22:55 PM »
Hrm...  I know my Roman history enough to recognize where you got that. I think the usage of that phrase might be a -little- extreme in this case. Comparing NCSoft to Carthage and the ultimate fate of same is not exactly the angle I was going for there.

Oh, sure. And we're not Rome, not hardly. But when the hyperbole turns to scorched and salted earth, I say you can't go wrong with the classics.

We don't want to literally burn down anything. We do, however, want to ensure that it is significantly less expensive to NCSoft for them to sell City of Heroes to someone who will love it and continue to run it than it would be for them to do otherwise. (And by 'we' I mean 'me for sure, and probably some other unspecified people') If CoH was 2% of their revenue, I would like to see them take an additional 6% hit to revenues as a result of burning this game (threefold return and all that). More would be better, because I'm vindictive when people steal from me. Not sure how to get there though. They have no other products I have any interest in, so a boycott is meaningless. It's like my boycott of Ford because of bad cars they sold me in the 90s; not a hardship.

Atlantea

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #81 on: September 27, 2012, 11:30:30 PM »
I can certainly get behind the emotional side of that, and the "3-fold" retribution part.

Osborn

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #82 on: September 27, 2012, 11:38:33 PM »
I'm honestly unsure what point you're trying to make here.

The whole point of bad press campaigns is to give them a PR nightmare, because a PR nightmare makes doing profitable business more difficult for the target.

Yes, I agree. I was saying a PR nightmare becomes not just 'free advertisement' because the people who hear these negative things aren't going to buy. That's my whole point to the people who are saying "We should just continue to buy NCSoft products no matter what, we don't want to hurt their feelings!". If we plan on buying these products regardless of the PR nightmare, basically we're just giving the company free advertisement and incentive to do what they were going to do anyways.

It's not trying to salve anybody's feelings by making them buy GW2; that's foolish. In fact, the goal is, in part, to get people to hesitate before buying GW2 on the grounds that it could shut down entirely, just as suddenly.

Uh, yeah that's what I said. I said we shouldn't buy their games just to make them like us better. I was saying that refusing to buy was the point of bad PR. Somewhere along the line I think you've confused what I've said mostly for the opposite of what I said.

The best option is for NCSoft to sell the IP to CoH; we want to make that a viable, attractive option that will instantly turn around any bad press we are generating. If and when that happens, it is imperative that we not trumpet it as a victory "over" NCSoft, but as a triumphant alliance that is a win for everybody.

I agree, but until that point there's been a lot of sentiment that if we don't buy GW2 and invest in NCSoft as if nothing happened, that we'll make them frowny and they won't want to sell. But I feel that's the opposite, that if we buy with the same confidence we had before CoH went under, or if worse if we buy even faster than before then, that we're basically giving them no reason to think their current public relations is even bad.

Remember, asian culture is huge on Face. We want to make sure that, if they work with us (or at least the way we want), we reward them by saving and even enhancing their Face, preferably while gaining some of our own. It will make Titan Networks and all involved have more clout in the future in similar circumstances.

Yeah, and if presuming NCSoft changes its mind on the issue, I would be happy to stop my boycott of their products. And if that helps them 'save face', by all means, let them extol it as a victory or whatever over us, if that's what they have to do. I'll have the game I want, and they'll have the money or the loss of the negative PR they want, depending on how that goes down.

But there's a strong sentiment that we have to allow them to 'save face' even while or after they bury CoH, and I don't frankly get that. If their face is only savable in a situation where both CoH is buried AND they continue to get my money as tithes as if I'm obligated to give it to them, then frankly their face's price is too steep for my taste.

chasearcanum

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #83 on: September 28, 2012, 12:17:54 AM »
But there's a strong sentiment that we have to allow them to 'save face' even while or after they bury CoH, and I don't frankly get that. If their face is only savable in a situation where both CoH is buried AND they continue to get my money as tithes as if I'm obligated to give it to them, then frankly their face's price is too steep for my taste.

NCSoft's goal here is to minimize bad press and capitalize on the good press.  They already had decided it was worth taking a financial loss by killing a profitable game, so any monetary incentive they gain here is something they were previously willing to write off.  Money alone is not going to sway them.  Face is the currency that matters now.

Right now, we're gaining credibility among the news sites for being a level-headed community that's done things to show gratitude to the devs, etc.  We've shrugged off much of the stereotype of the self-entitled-rabid gamer that has plagued gaming communities that throw tantrums.  We've shown that we possess one of the rarest elements in all of the internet - patience. 

We're also showing organization, camaraderie, and an ability to influence others in the wider gaming community.  We're showing our strength, and that means NCSoft can also see some of what we can bring to play if things go negative.  We're playing nice & friendly, but we're keeping double-barreled shotgun in full view.

NCSoft on the other hand, should know that they have a rare opportunity here.   Had we unloaded both barrels at them, then NO action on their part would have undone the damage we'd caused.  They'd just stay the course.  They expected a barrage of negativity, after all.  By showing a reasonable side,  they may see a window of opportunity here-  heck, they could even play hero here-- proudly announcing a deal that keeps City of Heroes alive (somewhere else) and celebrating the great community that banded together to make this possible- making OUR wave of positive press their own.   

Stand firm, be polite, and keep that shotgun handy, but remember that the moment we fire both barrels-- however good it may feel-- the fight is over.

Segev

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #84 on: September 28, 2012, 03:59:41 AM »
Not having grown up in an Asian culture, I cannot profess to be an expert on how, exactly, the nuances of Face-saving work. However, I have seen more than a few Asian stories wherein the man-with-the-power was truly moved by the dedication of the heroes who were, effectively, in our position. By announcing how moved he was, he was shown not to be a villain, but merely a man who was very important and thus did not know of the trouble until it was brought to his attention. In delivering what was asked, he took part in the heroes' glory; they brought word to him against all odds, and he magnanimously and wisely recognized the right course of action to dispense aid.

Generosity is a virtue that gives those who display it publicly significant Face. What we need to do, to enable NCSoft to gain from this if they work with us, is ensure that they have room to say, "Oh! We are glad you showed us how much you care! We are pleased to side with you and see that your hard work is rewarded!" in such a way that they can, as was stated by others, "play the hero." Or, rather, play the guardian angel that sets all to right for the hero after the hero has done all he can.

RedWolfeXR

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #85 on: October 04, 2012, 03:49:44 PM »
So this was only about a year ago, huh?  Interesting.

It triggered layoffs and restructuring in the US side of NC Soft.  It very likely soured NC Soft to dealing with the West.  So indirectly it may have affected CoH.  (and very likely Wildstar -- it may be the next casualty)

The resignation letter wasn't the issue in Garriot's case -- read the actual complaint, Kotoku posted it as I recall.  The issue was they decided to characterize the separation as a termination which triggered a 30 day liquidation for all the stock in his similar-to-options program.  They basically told him to sell it or forfeit.  So he had to sell, his argument was that it was a bad time to sell.

A pretty healthy amount of stock held by someone they had just dumped...  I can see why they wanted to DO it.  It just violated his contract.  The public "letter" was within their lattitude, since it was PR.  It wasn't a letter with his actual signature -- and had no legal standing.

I beta tested and played TR.  NC decided to sever its relationship with the Garriots (Richards brother Jason was the head of NC Soft US - but he didn't sue, maybe he was handled better or just had a thicker skin)   "Lord British" always did have a 'tude.  :)

RedWolfeXR

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #86 on: October 05, 2012, 12:26:46 AM »
I have the sources from court rulings from the Appeal.
  • Richard Garriotts brother is called Robert and not Jason.
  • Richard Garriott signed and approved the letter that was put up as his announcement of leaving the company, he didn't however sign the resignation letter that NCsoft had drafted for him.
RICHARD GARRIOTT v. NCSOFT CORPORATION appeals ruling

The important thing here, and what was actually the crux of the court case, was if he was fired or if he resigned. The most important part for the court case was the letter to management,  That is where all of the legal wrangling was involved. You are correct about the letter to the players, it was just a PR letter if nothing else. Something to explain to the players *something* about what was happening. He did approve and sign it though.

According to the original court ruling (go to top of page 5) Robert Garriott was able to sell his options in July and August 2009 without being forced to do so.[/list]

Ah, thats what happens when I go by memory...  sorry Robert...  (wonder where I got Jason from)

I read the original filing that Garriott made, which was what I was going by.  Indeed, it was all about whether he was fired or not.  That was what I said even if not so well.  :)  I should have read the appeal as well, but since the original finding was upheld I didn't read NC's counter.

The one thing that wasn't very clear at the time was whether it was Robert that had to fire Richard or whether he was already out.   At the time it was fairly obvious to all of us POed TR players that DG was getting the big boot and since it had been both brothers company that it was probably both.  Only Richard made a stink and posted his side (via the court docs).

Up until that filing we had hoped that DG would keep the TR code and be able to publish it elsewhere. 


TimtheEnchanter

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Re: Fool me Six Times!
« Reply #87 on: October 07, 2012, 05:14:10 AM »
Just got shown some new NCsoft gamekiller memes. These are pretty funny.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=oa.161981810608757