Author Topic: Captain America: The Winter Soldier  (Read 11995 times)

Arcana

  • Sultaness of Stats
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,672
Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2014, 09:45:14 PM »
My dad made an interesting observation about the movie; he said Steve was the only person in the movie who didn't kill anyone.  He certainly injured some people pretty badly, but I couldn't remember an instance where he actually killed anyone.
With absolute certainty?  Well, I'm sure lots of people on the Helicarriers died and Cap was partially responsible for that, but if you mean in terms of a specific action killing a specific person, I can only think of one case where that might be true.  In the scene at the bridge, when Rogers is pinned down by the gunmen including the one with the minigun, there's a moment when it seems obvious he deliberately deflects the bullets hitting his shield into the general direction of one of the men to his side bringing him down.  He had to  do that because otherwise as he ran forward the guys to the side would have a clear shot at him he couldn't deflect (because he had to keep his shield in front of him to block the minigun).  After that, Falcon began bringing some of those other guys down from atop the overpass, but I would have to credit Cap with at least one potential kill there.

CG

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 408
Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2014, 05:41:19 PM »
You could also look at it that they killed themselves? 

Given the body counts for virtually every other character in the film, his personal count was remarkably low or non-existent.  I wonder if that was a deliberate choice on the part of the film-makers?

Arcana

  • Sultaness of Stats
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,672
Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2014, 07:27:01 PM »
You could also look at it that they killed themselves? 

I could, but I won't.  If they did something that forced Rogers to take an action which got them killed, I could argue that.  If they threw a grenade at him and it bounced off his shield back at them and killed them, I wouldn't count that against Rogers as being an actual kill.  But when someone is shooting at him and he *deliberately* deflects the bullets in a direction that he knows will hit another person, and that takes significant skill to do and can't be random chance, then I'd say he made the conscious decision to kill that person (assuming they died).  Cap is a soldier, and soldiers sometimes have to take lethal action when in combat.  I don't consider him a murderer: he did it in self-defense.  But it was a deliberate act to kill someone, even if he used someone else's bullets.

Quote
Given the body counts for virtually every other character in the film, his personal count was remarkably low or non-existent.  I wonder if that was a deliberate choice on the part of the film-makers?

I'm sure it was.

Tribunus

  • Minion
  • **
  • Posts: 20
  • Pinnacle of Virtue
    • Polar Bear Dreams & Stranger Things
Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2014, 09:24:51 PM »
Good movie! I stay away from midnight showings these days myself. I prefer a Saturday or Sunday matinee on opening weekend. Less stressful. :)

I'll say this much about the Winter Soldier, though; he reminds me of this guy:



:D
"It's not about where you were born. Or what powers you have. Or what you wear on your chest. It's about what you do....It's about saving others."
Tribunus to other Virtue heroes during the Cataclysm

Tenzhi

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,677
    • My DeviantArt Page
Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2014, 05:00:22 AM »
I like catching the earliest showing on the Monday following opening weekend.  Particularly while school is in session.  Even big openers tend to have a relatively small crowd on that first Monday.
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.

Arcana

  • Sultaness of Stats
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,672
Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2014, 05:38:43 AM »
I like catching the earliest showing on the Monday following opening weekend.  Particularly while school is in session.  Even big openers tend to have a relatively small crowd on that first Monday.
There's a theater complex where I live that has Tuesday night $6 tickets and $1 hot dogs (and $3 nachos I think) that a friend of mine tends to go to religiously, and I tag along with him when I'm free (not working, not inexpensive).  It tends to be much less crowded also, but when I went to see Winter Soldier the Tuesday night after its opening weekend it was plenty packed (not full, but maybe 85% full).

Cinnder

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 246
Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2014, 08:23:03 PM »
* SPOILER *

Re: Cap not killing anyone -- just saw it again, and what about when he gets on the first carrier, takes a grenade from a guy and throws it at 3 other guys?  I'm no munitions expert, but it certainly looked like a frag grenade to me.

CG

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 408
Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2014, 01:15:05 AM »
Stun grenade?

Cinnder

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 246
Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2014, 06:07:15 AM »
Again, I'm no expert, but I believe a grenade that blows up nearby inanimate objects would necessarily do the same kind of damage to people.

Arcana

  • Sultaness of Stats
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,672
Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2014, 08:50:23 AM »
* SPOILER *

Re: Cap not killing anyone -- just saw it again, and what about when he gets on the first carrier, takes a grenade from a guy and throws it at 3 other guys?  I'm no munitions expert, but it certainly looked like a frag grenade to me.
They were dressed in Shield flak gear which could have saved their lives, and as to the type of grenade it looked similar to the grenade that was thrown into the bridge of the original Helicarrier in the Avengers and Maria Hill survived that blast at relatively close range.

Cinnder

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 246
Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #30 on: May 01, 2014, 03:43:29 PM »
Oh yeah, they definitely might have survived. Just like the guy who catches the chain gun bullets Cap diverts withhis shield. I thought the question here was more one of intent than outcome.

CG

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 408
Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #31 on: May 01, 2014, 08:03:36 PM »
Very well, lets say he did cause the deaths of a few people in the movie (notwithstanding the crashing helicarriers).  The grenade and the chain gun were reactionary deaths; if they had not attacked Cap, they wouldn't have died.

Is it not an interesting choice to have a soldier go out of his way to kill as few people as possible, or only as a last resort?  Especially in a movie where everyone else is killing everyone in sight?



Cinnder

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 246
Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #32 on: May 01, 2014, 08:05:19 PM »
Oh definitely.  I love that he's the moral conscience of, well, pretty much everyone in the film.

Arcana

  • Sultaness of Stats
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,672
Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #33 on: May 02, 2014, 05:22:07 AM »
Very well, lets say he did cause the deaths of a few people in the movie (notwithstanding the crashing helicarriers).  The grenade and the chain gun were reactionary deaths; if they had not attacked Cap, they wouldn't have died.

Is it not an interesting choice to have a soldier go out of his way to kill as few people as possible, or only as a last resort?  Especially in a movie where everyone else is killing everyone in sight?

Except I don't think Cap went out of his way.  As a soldier, Cap has killed and will kill if it is necessary.  But a soldier also doesn't kill except when its necessary for his mission.  He's not fighting the kind of war where the goal is to kill as many enemy combatants as possible.  In The Avengers he was ok with tossing someone off the Helicarrier who almost certainly died.  As I said he deliberately deflected chain gun bullets into a Hydra agent because he had to in order to defend himself.  He was willing to destroy the Helicarriers even if that endangered or killed the Hydra agents on them.  He's portrayed as *willing* to kill if it is necessary.  I think the interesting observation, made earlier in the thread, is that he's *visually depicted* as killing few if any people, which is more of a story-telling trick.

And the other characters aren't just killing indiscriminately either, not even Hydra.  Agent Rumlow could have killed the SHIELD officer in charge of launching the Helicarriers and launched them himself immediately: he ultimately did launch them himself.  But he resorted to threatening that guy first rather than simply kill him and be done with it.  Secretary Pierce plants kill switches on the other council members but doesn't use them until he decides he has to in order to effect an escape: he could have had them killed immediately upon being revealed.  He even seems annoyed (if not reluctant) to kill his housekeeper when she returns unexpectedly.

Tenzhi

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,677
    • My DeviantArt Page
Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #34 on: May 02, 2014, 12:36:23 PM »
Pierce's annoyance about killing his housekeeper seemed to me to stem from the inevitable hassle of cleaning up the mess and having to find another housekeeper.  Underscoring his evil rather than humanizing him.
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.

Night-Hawk07

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 317
Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #35 on: May 02, 2014, 08:07:33 PM »
Pierce's annoyance about killing his housekeeper seemed to me to stem from the inevitable hassle of cleaning up the mess and having to find another housekeeper.  Underscoring his evil rather than humanizing him.

That's the way I took it as well. I got the impression that wasn't the first time he'd done that either.

BadWolf

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 263
Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #36 on: May 02, 2014, 08:22:21 PM »
I hate Winter Soldier... the character.

I'm not a fan of him in the comics, but that's primarily because I think it's way too much of a reach for Bucky, the chipper young sidekick to Captain America who was known for his semi-witty quips, to become the grim 'n' gritty cyborg murder machine that is the Winter Soldier. (And the retconning in that Lil' Bucky was a secret murder machine who slit people's throats all the time off-panel felt stupid and desperate.)

But the Bucky we got in the films was a completely different character, and I could believe him as the Winter Soldier. It worked a lot better, because it wasn't a ham-fisted retcon.

(And in reference to the Shandling cameo--he was in 'Iron Man 2' as a Senator who wanted to confiscate Stark's technology and use it to produce Iron Man suits for the government. Finding out that he was HYDRA all along completely changes that subplot.)

Tenzhi

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,677
    • My DeviantArt Page
Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #37 on: May 02, 2014, 10:10:09 PM »
Yeah, someone else mentioned the Iron Man 2 cameo, and I said I didn't remember it so he must not have made an impression...  and later in a real life conversation I asked a friend about the Shandling cameo in Iron Man 2 in such a way that it was clear I was thinking about Iron Man 3.  Apparently, Iron Man 2 itself didn't make an impression, or else my mind is trying to erase it like a Highlander sequel. ;P
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.

Arcana

  • Sultaness of Stats
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,672
Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #38 on: May 03, 2014, 07:07:20 PM »
Pierce's annoyance about killing his housekeeper seemed to me to stem from the inevitable hassle of cleaning up the mess and having to find another housekeeper.  Underscoring his evil rather than humanizing him.
That doesn't detract from the point that Pierce wasn't depicted as simply killing indiscriminately or for pleasure.  He had no qualms about killing, but he killed only when it served his explicit purposes.  He was also depicted as a true believer in Hydra's mission of killing the troublesome twenty million to provide an orderly and controlled world for the other seven billion.

Tenzhi

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,677
    • My DeviantArt Page
Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #39 on: May 03, 2014, 10:50:47 PM »
I wasn't exactly trying to detract from a point.  Just highlighting the fact that while Cap's... I'll call it "discriminate killing" because my brain is tired and better phrasing eludes me... may be seen as rooted in a moral conscience, Pierce's is purely selfish and actually shows that he does not value human life on a more personal level than a grand evil scheme to make the world a better place.
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.