Author Topic: Captain America: The Winter Soldier  (Read 12007 times)

FatherXmas

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Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« on: April 04, 2014, 08:53:12 AM »
I like the film.  Very Three Days of the Condor feel to it.

I liked the name dropping of other Marvel characters including Steven Strange.

Going to need to freeze frame some screens when the DVD comes out to see if any other interesting names are dropped.  Went by pretty quick.

The crossover to Agents of SHIELD will be interesting at the very least.

Really didn't expect the extent of the "Twist".

Nice lease Nick.

Interesting new vocations for some key players.

Glow Stick of Destiny.

The "Twins".

Two after scenes.  First after the fancy credits, second after the main credits.

Of course last trailer shown was Ooga Chaka, Ooga Chaka.



I miss when the midnight (near midnight) screenings had the true hard core fans.  My 11:45 showing didn't seem as much fan based, more college rowdy based.  But I did see a lot of fans exiting out of the 8 to 8:30 showing.
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Kaos Arcanna

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2014, 09:48:21 PM »
Yes, I'm wondering what the fallout to Agents of Shield will be.


Spoiler for Hidden:
It's too bad about Jasper. The comic book character was one of my favorite SHIELD agents. Sort of Sheldon Cooper as a SHIELD Agent.

TriNitroToluene

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2014, 12:43:59 AM »
All I can say is daaaaaaaammmmmmnnnnnnn.  That was a hell of a ride.  I cannot wait to see what they do with the next installment. 

I had high hopes from the trailers I'd seen and I was not disappointed in the least.  This movie kicked butt all over the place.

Eoraptor

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2014, 08:09:23 PM »
loved it, though did not get to stay for the post-scripts. This is what Man of Steel should have been. Although.. I'm wondering if just maaaaaaaybe GM might have had a few pennies in sponsoring the movie? 8) But I'll tell you what, Scarlet Johansen can roll up to me in a black stingray and call me a fossil any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Though I was surprised they did not do a bit more with the neighbor character than they did... but I guess at 2 plus hours already, it was pushing the bladder-threshhold just a bit
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Cinnder

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2014, 11:31:21 PM »
Yep, this definitely made up for Thor 2 -- and then some!

Interesting to see one of the solo films take such a central and critical place in the overall plot.  Seemed much closer to the "core," as Avengers was -- i.e. seems like if one missed this film, then much confusion would reign when viewing Avengers 2.

Magus Prime

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2014, 01:59:28 AM »
Loved this movie.  The first one was meh but this sequel didn't let me down one iota.  The fight choreography, the story, and dialog all came together nicely. A top notch effort.  Definitely worth a view in the theater.

Arnabas

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2014, 03:56:59 AM »
Loved it. Note I'm really intrigued for what they'll do on Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

I hope this leads to a Nick Fury movie before SLJ's contract is up. My only complaint is that I wish they would have hired a cameraman who didn't have epilepsy.

FatherXmas

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2014, 07:22:47 AM »
loved it, though did not get to stay for the post-scripts. This is what Man of Steel should have been. Although.. I'm wondering if just maaaaaaaybe GM might have had a few pennies in sponsoring the movie? 8) But I'll tell you what, Scarlet Johansen can roll up to me in a black stingray and call me a fossil any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Though I was surprised they did not do a bit more with the neighbor character than they did... but I guess at 2 plus hours already, it was pushing the bladder-threshhold just a bit

First stinger (didn't know that's what they're called until recently) we will see a form of in Avengers 2.  Second stinger is brief and likely ties in with Cap Am 3.
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Tenzhi

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2014, 06:58:03 PM »
I hate Winter Soldier... the character.  This was a good movie overall, though.  Mostly great fights and action - there were a couple of close-in shots of hand to hand that would have benefitted from a steady camera rather than a camera-in-an-earthquake.  Loved seeing the "classic" outfit back in action.

In the after-credits we get the worst Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch...
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.

Magus Prime

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2014, 08:25:19 PM »
In the after-credits we get the worst Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch...

Then Bryan Singer happened:


Peacemaker

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2014, 08:40:19 PM »
I loved this movie.  I am a huge winter soldier fan and loved the brubaker run on the comic.  I enjoyed the first film but I felt The way Bucky was killed off felt rushed.  Glad they brought him back in cap 2 and looking forward to cap 3 with hope of a winter soldier movie.

TriNitroToluene

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2014, 12:28:00 AM »
One additional thought on the movie.  I think this was Stan Lee's finest cameo so far.  Followed up by those in Cap #1 and Avengers.

Tenzhi

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2014, 04:51:05 AM »
At least the Bryan Singer one half-assed a bit of silver into the hair.  That's a small step above the one in Captain America.

And what the heck was up with fat Gary Shandling?  That seemed like a very random cameo. 
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.

Eoraptor

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2014, 07:47:15 AM »
Using the good old senator was a way to go back in time and link in an older Marvel property, (IM2) so it doesn't seem like the movies are just randomly forgotten after a year or two or done in a lockstep progression but are more organic like the comics with different interlevings. More random, why were Greg Kineer and the goober from community there as technicians?

I still don't like Colbie Smulders as Agent Hill. She has none of the punch or gravitas I expect of Nick Fury's right-hand woman... and every time I see her in these movies I am yanked violently out of the marvel movie-verse and into a episode of "How I met your Agent." Hopefully her new job will see her shipped off to some obscure PR gig in Malaysia or something and we don't have to see her again.

And yeah, I loved Stan the Man... I remarked to my dad after we left the theater "We should all be so lucky to be able to do what we love at that age"
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Tenzhi

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2014, 10:07:02 AM »
Heh, I don't remember Shandling in Iron Man 2.  Must not have made an impression then.

And I don't know who Greg Kineer is off hand, nor have I watched The Community (indeed I'm only barely aware enough of it to recognize it as a title without capitalization rather than ask " which community?")...

But I gotta agree about Maria Hill.  As much as I like the actress, she seems to innately come across as lighthearted and fun.
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.

eabrace

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2014, 12:23:49 PM »
Heh, I don't remember Shandling in Iron Man 2.  Must not have made an impression then.
A quick jog of the memory at 1:10 in the Iron Man 2 Trailer
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Magus Prime

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2014, 08:33:34 PM »
At least the Bryan Singer one half-assed a bit of silver into the hair.




I had faith that his silver mane would be written in later.  ;)

Arcana

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2014, 08:12:48 AM »
But I gotta agree about Maria Hill.  As much as I like the actress, she seems to innately come across as lighthearted and fun.
Myself personally I thought she came across as an extremely loyal and competent right hand to Fury in Avengers.  I don't think she had enough to do in Winter Soldier to get any strong vibe off of her except as a background character.

And to be honest Clark Gregg came across as light and fun initially, and gained gravitas for me in Avengers.

Beyond that, I think Winter Soldier is definitely the strongest Phase Two movie so far.  I liked Iron Man 3, I think Dark World was weaker but passable.  I think Winter Soldier is definitely the best so far.

Honestly, Avengers 2 is shaping up to be great, Amazing Spiderman looks great so far, Days of Future Past looks killer, and even Ooga Chaka Ooga Ooga Chaka looks like it could be a fun ride.  This is my thirteen year old self's cinematic fantasy: when they name dropped
Spoiler for Hidden:
Stephen Strange
in Winter Soldier my brain pumped out enough endorphins to make my fingernails hum.

CG

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2014, 08:08:54 PM »
My dad made an interesting observation about the movie; he said Steve was the only person in the movie who didn't kill anyone.  He certainly injured some people pretty badly, but I couldn't remember an instance where he actually killed anyone.

Eoraptor

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2014, 09:44:00 PM »
technically true... but you could argue that his plan to bring down the Insight-class helicarriers lead directly to the deaths of their crews on board. not to mention anyone on the ground in the immediate area around the Triskelion.

still, it is worth pondering, that observation.
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Arcana

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2014, 09:45:14 PM »
My dad made an interesting observation about the movie; he said Steve was the only person in the movie who didn't kill anyone.  He certainly injured some people pretty badly, but I couldn't remember an instance where he actually killed anyone.
With absolute certainty?  Well, I'm sure lots of people on the Helicarriers died and Cap was partially responsible for that, but if you mean in terms of a specific action killing a specific person, I can only think of one case where that might be true.  In the scene at the bridge, when Rogers is pinned down by the gunmen including the one with the minigun, there's a moment when it seems obvious he deliberately deflects the bullets hitting his shield into the general direction of one of the men to his side bringing him down.  He had to  do that because otherwise as he ran forward the guys to the side would have a clear shot at him he couldn't deflect (because he had to keep his shield in front of him to block the minigun).  After that, Falcon began bringing some of those other guys down from atop the overpass, but I would have to credit Cap with at least one potential kill there.

CG

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2014, 05:41:19 PM »
You could also look at it that they killed themselves? 

Given the body counts for virtually every other character in the film, his personal count was remarkably low or non-existent.  I wonder if that was a deliberate choice on the part of the film-makers?

Arcana

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2014, 07:27:01 PM »
You could also look at it that they killed themselves? 

I could, but I won't.  If they did something that forced Rogers to take an action which got them killed, I could argue that.  If they threw a grenade at him and it bounced off his shield back at them and killed them, I wouldn't count that against Rogers as being an actual kill.  But when someone is shooting at him and he *deliberately* deflects the bullets in a direction that he knows will hit another person, and that takes significant skill to do and can't be random chance, then I'd say he made the conscious decision to kill that person (assuming they died).  Cap is a soldier, and soldiers sometimes have to take lethal action when in combat.  I don't consider him a murderer: he did it in self-defense.  But it was a deliberate act to kill someone, even if he used someone else's bullets.

Quote
Given the body counts for virtually every other character in the film, his personal count was remarkably low or non-existent.  I wonder if that was a deliberate choice on the part of the film-makers?

I'm sure it was.

Tribunus

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2014, 09:24:51 PM »
Good movie! I stay away from midnight showings these days myself. I prefer a Saturday or Sunday matinee on opening weekend. Less stressful. :)

I'll say this much about the Winter Soldier, though; he reminds me of this guy:



:D
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Tenzhi

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2014, 05:00:22 AM »
I like catching the earliest showing on the Monday following opening weekend.  Particularly while school is in session.  Even big openers tend to have a relatively small crowd on that first Monday.
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.

Arcana

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2014, 05:38:43 AM »
I like catching the earliest showing on the Monday following opening weekend.  Particularly while school is in session.  Even big openers tend to have a relatively small crowd on that first Monday.
There's a theater complex where I live that has Tuesday night $6 tickets and $1 hot dogs (and $3 nachos I think) that a friend of mine tends to go to religiously, and I tag along with him when I'm free (not working, not inexpensive).  It tends to be much less crowded also, but when I went to see Winter Soldier the Tuesday night after its opening weekend it was plenty packed (not full, but maybe 85% full).

Cinnder

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2014, 08:23:03 PM »
* SPOILER *

Re: Cap not killing anyone -- just saw it again, and what about when he gets on the first carrier, takes a grenade from a guy and throws it at 3 other guys?  I'm no munitions expert, but it certainly looked like a frag grenade to me.

CG

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2014, 01:15:05 AM »
Stun grenade?

Cinnder

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2014, 06:07:15 AM »
Again, I'm no expert, but I believe a grenade that blows up nearby inanimate objects would necessarily do the same kind of damage to people.

Arcana

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2014, 08:50:23 AM »
* SPOILER *

Re: Cap not killing anyone -- just saw it again, and what about when he gets on the first carrier, takes a grenade from a guy and throws it at 3 other guys?  I'm no munitions expert, but it certainly looked like a frag grenade to me.
They were dressed in Shield flak gear which could have saved their lives, and as to the type of grenade it looked similar to the grenade that was thrown into the bridge of the original Helicarrier in the Avengers and Maria Hill survived that blast at relatively close range.

Cinnder

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #30 on: May 01, 2014, 03:43:29 PM »
Oh yeah, they definitely might have survived. Just like the guy who catches the chain gun bullets Cap diverts withhis shield. I thought the question here was more one of intent than outcome.

CG

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #31 on: May 01, 2014, 08:03:36 PM »
Very well, lets say he did cause the deaths of a few people in the movie (notwithstanding the crashing helicarriers).  The grenade and the chain gun were reactionary deaths; if they had not attacked Cap, they wouldn't have died.

Is it not an interesting choice to have a soldier go out of his way to kill as few people as possible, or only as a last resort?  Especially in a movie where everyone else is killing everyone in sight?



Cinnder

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #32 on: May 01, 2014, 08:05:19 PM »
Oh definitely.  I love that he's the moral conscience of, well, pretty much everyone in the film.

Arcana

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #33 on: May 02, 2014, 05:22:07 AM »
Very well, lets say he did cause the deaths of a few people in the movie (notwithstanding the crashing helicarriers).  The grenade and the chain gun were reactionary deaths; if they had not attacked Cap, they wouldn't have died.

Is it not an interesting choice to have a soldier go out of his way to kill as few people as possible, or only as a last resort?  Especially in a movie where everyone else is killing everyone in sight?

Except I don't think Cap went out of his way.  As a soldier, Cap has killed and will kill if it is necessary.  But a soldier also doesn't kill except when its necessary for his mission.  He's not fighting the kind of war where the goal is to kill as many enemy combatants as possible.  In The Avengers he was ok with tossing someone off the Helicarrier who almost certainly died.  As I said he deliberately deflected chain gun bullets into a Hydra agent because he had to in order to defend himself.  He was willing to destroy the Helicarriers even if that endangered or killed the Hydra agents on them.  He's portrayed as *willing* to kill if it is necessary.  I think the interesting observation, made earlier in the thread, is that he's *visually depicted* as killing few if any people, which is more of a story-telling trick.

And the other characters aren't just killing indiscriminately either, not even Hydra.  Agent Rumlow could have killed the SHIELD officer in charge of launching the Helicarriers and launched them himself immediately: he ultimately did launch them himself.  But he resorted to threatening that guy first rather than simply kill him and be done with it.  Secretary Pierce plants kill switches on the other council members but doesn't use them until he decides he has to in order to effect an escape: he could have had them killed immediately upon being revealed.  He even seems annoyed (if not reluctant) to kill his housekeeper when she returns unexpectedly.

Tenzhi

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #34 on: May 02, 2014, 12:36:23 PM »
Pierce's annoyance about killing his housekeeper seemed to me to stem from the inevitable hassle of cleaning up the mess and having to find another housekeeper.  Underscoring his evil rather than humanizing him.
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.

Night-Hawk07

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #35 on: May 02, 2014, 08:07:33 PM »
Pierce's annoyance about killing his housekeeper seemed to me to stem from the inevitable hassle of cleaning up the mess and having to find another housekeeper.  Underscoring his evil rather than humanizing him.

That's the way I took it as well. I got the impression that wasn't the first time he'd done that either.

BadWolf

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #36 on: May 02, 2014, 08:22:21 PM »
I hate Winter Soldier... the character.

I'm not a fan of him in the comics, but that's primarily because I think it's way too much of a reach for Bucky, the chipper young sidekick to Captain America who was known for his semi-witty quips, to become the grim 'n' gritty cyborg murder machine that is the Winter Soldier. (And the retconning in that Lil' Bucky was a secret murder machine who slit people's throats all the time off-panel felt stupid and desperate.)

But the Bucky we got in the films was a completely different character, and I could believe him as the Winter Soldier. It worked a lot better, because it wasn't a ham-fisted retcon.

(And in reference to the Shandling cameo--he was in 'Iron Man 2' as a Senator who wanted to confiscate Stark's technology and use it to produce Iron Man suits for the government. Finding out that he was HYDRA all along completely changes that subplot.)

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #37 on: May 02, 2014, 10:10:09 PM »
Yeah, someone else mentioned the Iron Man 2 cameo, and I said I didn't remember it so he must not have made an impression...  and later in a real life conversation I asked a friend about the Shandling cameo in Iron Man 2 in such a way that it was clear I was thinking about Iron Man 3.  Apparently, Iron Man 2 itself didn't make an impression, or else my mind is trying to erase it like a Highlander sequel. ;P
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.

Arcana

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #38 on: May 03, 2014, 07:07:20 PM »
Pierce's annoyance about killing his housekeeper seemed to me to stem from the inevitable hassle of cleaning up the mess and having to find another housekeeper.  Underscoring his evil rather than humanizing him.
That doesn't detract from the point that Pierce wasn't depicted as simply killing indiscriminately or for pleasure.  He had no qualms about killing, but he killed only when it served his explicit purposes.  He was also depicted as a true believer in Hydra's mission of killing the troublesome twenty million to provide an orderly and controlled world for the other seven billion.

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #39 on: May 03, 2014, 10:50:47 PM »
I wasn't exactly trying to detract from a point.  Just highlighting the fact that while Cap's... I'll call it "discriminate killing" because my brain is tired and better phrasing eludes me... may be seen as rooted in a moral conscience, Pierce's is purely selfish and actually shows that he does not value human life on a more personal level than a grand evil scheme to make the world a better place.
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.

Harpospoke

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #40 on: May 11, 2014, 07:48:19 AM »
This one blindsided me.   I had very little desire to see it after Cap 1....which I thought was "meh".

Then I watch Cap 2 and now it's my favorite Marvel movie!  (yep...edging out even Avengers for me)

Christ....I'm so obsessed with it.   I saw it 4 times in theaters and might do a dollar theater viewing as well.   I only saw Avengers 3 times...usually my limit no matter how much a love a movie.

This movie is so good it made me hate Spidey 2....and Spidey is my favorite character!

My dad made an interesting observation about the movie; he said Steve was the only person in the movie who didn't kill anyone.  He certainly injured some people pretty badly, but I couldn't remember an instance where he actually killed anyone.
I dunno about that.   I'm betting that guy he kicked off the ship in the middle of the night had a tough go of it.   ;D   I'll bet there are more examples as well.   Cap didn't mess around in this movie!

FatherXmas

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #41 on: May 12, 2014, 11:06:48 AM »
Spidey 2 can make you hate Spidey 2 all on it's own merit.
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Harpospoke

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #42 on: May 12, 2014, 06:26:00 PM »
Spidey 2 can make you hate Spidey 2 all on it's own merit.
;D

Yeah....Rhino....   :o

Arcana

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #43 on: May 13, 2014, 06:02:29 AM »
Spidey 2 can make you hate Spidey 2 all on it's own merit.
Dunno where the hate comes from for AmSpid2; its not as strong as Cap2 by any means, but even with its flaws I thought it was a pretty good movie.  It was a bit more "comic-booky" with things like its 70s X-Ray spectacles-like Science (magnetized web shooters can absorb lightning bolts!), but I liked this characterization of Spiderman better than the Toby Maguire version that I thought was just a little too depressing.  This Spiderman helps kids displays over-the-top bravado towards run of the mill criminals and actually tries to talk down villains rather than just beat them up.  To me that's a lot closer to my mental image of Spiderman than any of the other recent movies.

Cinematically speaking, the plot was a bit jumbled and the Rhino teaser messed with some people's heads (I was ok with it), but I found those to be forgivable glitches.

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #44 on: May 13, 2014, 02:53:36 PM »
Spidey 2 can make you hate Spidey 2 all on it's own merit.

Actually LOL -- well said!

I thought they started this reboot off with some promise (like correcting the web shooters), and then...this....

Eoraptor

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #45 on: May 13, 2014, 04:30:22 PM »
Actually LOL -- well said!

I thought they started this reboot off with some promise (like correcting the web shooters), and then...this....
Actually no, they started off this reboot because toby and kirsten refused to come back for Spiderman 4 but Sony was going to lose the license back to Marvel if they didn't put a movie out.
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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #46 on: May 14, 2014, 01:24:39 PM »
Actually no, they started off this reboot because toby and kirsten refused to come back for Spiderman 4 but Sony was going to lose the license back to Marvel if they didn't put a movie out.

Nope, Sony and everyone else were so disappointed in Raimi, Toby & Kirsten they moved on, Spiderman 3 was that bad. I think Toby and Kirsten and everyone involved was ready to move on, more than happy to actually, so there is that, but the studio was absolutely ready for a new cast and creative team after that debacle. The reboot happened fast to keep the rights, but also because it's one of Sony's biggest cinematic assets, Spiderman prints money for Sony, so they're going to keep making them.

CG

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #47 on: May 14, 2014, 04:41:04 PM »
I just wish they would stop re-telling the origin...  Just pick one: regular or Ultimate and make movies.  :-\

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #48 on: May 14, 2014, 05:28:39 PM »
I just wish they would stop re-telling the origin...  Just pick one: regular or Ultimate and make movies.  :-\

Agreed, established cinematic superheroes, ie: any of the Avengers, Superman, Batman, Spiderman, no longer need origin stories, even in the face of a total recasting, just get a story and move on. Everyone is over origin stories.

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #49 on: May 15, 2014, 05:53:38 AM »
Agreed, established cinematic superheroes, ie: any of the Avengers, Superman, Batman, Spiderman, no longer need origin stories, even in the face of a total recasting, just get a story and move on. Everyone is over origin stories.
Dunno: Batman already had an origin story done before Nolan came around, but Nolan's story doesn't work except with its origin telling specifically.  I think repeating what other people have already done carries risks, the biggest of which is that its not enough to just be different, you have to somehow exceed what has been done in the past to not be a mere rehash.  But I think all rules have exceptions, and the exception is that if you tell it right, retelling the origin story can have huge payoffs if its done right and done in a way integral to the future stories you tell.

Case in point, besides Nolan's Batman there's the Daniel Craig trio of Bond films, which have a certain feel similar to Nolan's Batman arc: its not just an origin story but almost the building of a myth.  I've said before that Nolan's movies aren't exactly about Batman, its about a guy named Bruce Wayne creating the Batman myth.  He has a personal story, but part of that story is that from the very beginning he intended to create this legendary figure that criminals would talk about like the boogeyman.  What we saw was a man: Nolan's Batman is actually that statue they unveil at the end of Rises: a legend that grows with each telling of the story.  In a sense, Daniel Craig isn't just a reboot, its almost the same thing: a story arc that sort of tells how a man went from being a gritty amateur to a seasoned veteran to James freaking Bond.

Most of the time, you're not going to get that kind of result, true.  But on the other hand, if you don't allow people to try, you'll never get them at all.

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #50 on: May 15, 2014, 12:14:22 PM »
Yeah, but one of these days I'll get exposed to a radioactive origin story while being struck by lightning that reacts with the mixture of heavy butter and artificial sweetener I was holding and then you'll see...  you'll ALL see.
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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #51 on: May 15, 2014, 01:12:50 PM »
Dunno: Batman already had an origin story done before Nolan came around, but Nolan's story doesn't work except with its origin telling specifically.  I think repeating what other people have already done carries risks, the biggest of which is that its not enough to just be different, you have to somehow exceed what has been done in the past to not be a mere rehash.  But I think all rules have exceptions, and the exception is that if you tell it right, retelling the origin story can have huge payoffs if its done right and done in a way integral to the future stories you tell.

Case in point, besides Nolan's Batman there's the Daniel Craig trio of Bond films, which have a certain feel similar to Nolan's Batman arc: its not just an origin story but almost the building of a myth.  I've said before that Nolan's movies aren't exactly about Batman, its about a guy named Bruce Wayne creating the Batman myth.  He has a personal story, but part of that story is that from the very beginning he intended to create this legendary figure that criminals would talk about like the boogeyman.  What we saw was a man: Nolan's Batman is actually that statue they unveil at the end of Rises: a legend that grows with each telling of the story.  In a sense, Daniel Craig isn't just a reboot, its almost the same thing: a story arc that sort of tells how a man went from being a gritty amateur to a seasoned veteran to James freaking Bond.

Most of the time, you're not going to get that kind of result, true.  But on the other hand, if you don't allow people to try, you'll never get them at all.

Agreed, and the same could also be said for Amazing Spiderman and it's one of the more hated origin stories, but with AS2 we see that they are clearly going a different route with the story and wanted to involve Peter's parents in his origin, unlike Raimi's films. On one hand that's admirable, they're doing something different, on another hand we get another origin story which frustrates people. Batman Begins also happened on the precipice of this superhero genre explosion. Batman hadn't been on screen since Batman and Robin and they very, very clearly needed a complete restart after...that. At that point in cinema Batman did need an origin story, badly in fact.

You are right in that origin stories are important for setting up these characters, I just think for a lot of characters they'd be better served like Bond was all those years. Just do another story, don't reboot just because your talent and production crews change, just keep on with more great stories. It hasn't happened yet, but Marvel has hinted that's how they'll function, just recast and carry on when an actor decides to quit a role.

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #52 on: May 15, 2014, 06:49:09 PM »
Yeah, but one of these days I'll get exposed to a radioactive origin story while being struck by lightning that reacts with the mixture of heavy butter and artificial sweetener I was holding and then you'll see...  you'll ALL see.


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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #53 on: May 15, 2014, 09:07:21 PM »
"Some people can read War and Peace and come away thinking it's a simple adventure story, while others can read the back of a chewing gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe!"
-Lex Luthor

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
« Reply #54 on: May 16, 2014, 09:10:31 AM »
Hooray for Buttery Pat!
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