New efforts!

[Twisted Toon]

I think (and hope) you meant scranking, because what you wrote means something else entirely.  But then maybe he was a major reggae fan... you didn't mention. :)

On that note however, how many 'hybrid class' names do you lot recall?

The ones I can think of off hand are:

Blapper (melee blaster)
Blaptroller (Usually elec end draining build, AKA Sapper, but I think other variants were around)
Scranker (offensive tanker)
Offender (offensive specced defender)

I had a conscranker. (Controller that scranks.) I suppose you could have called it a Contrapper if you wanted.

Ill/FF was good at Tanking and with Containment, fairly decent at damage, and still had some crowd control capability. I do remember a time when I had tanked 2 Paragon Protector bosses while the rest of the team cleared the rest of the mobs in a Crey Revenant mission.

[LadyVamp]

We could always suit up and do a stealth raid on NCSoft HQ and get into the servers and backup storage rooms and obtain  all the CoH data.

1. Send knock out gas through all the vents to disable any and all personnel in the building.
2. Suit up in all black attire with face and gas masks and slip into the building via the roof vents
3. Locate the server backups and obtain any and all backup data of CoH, and for good measure obtain the backup data for Auto Assault, Tabula Rasa and other cancelled NCSoft games.
4. Locate the vaults where any backup discs are stored and obtain them.
5. Leave a note for NCsoft saying "so long and thanks for all the fish!"
6. Return to base
7. Get teh backups restored to servers.
8. Test everything.
9. Celebrate!

Several flaws here:

1.  Backups would be stored offsite in some long term storage facility. (if they exist at all)
2.  Backup media likely on tape in a format unlikely used anymore. (hardware ages out including tape formats)
3.  Backup application likely no longer available.
4.  OS version.release unlikely available now too.
5.  Newer OS might have problems running the older code.  (assuming you could somehow restore the backups)
6.  You'd also need to run a separate raid to kidnap Matt and the rest of the team since they're likely the only ones who know how it get it going quickly if at all.
7.  You would be committing a number of crimes which some could potentially be considered hate crimes or even terrorist attacks.  It doesn't matter if that was your intention.  What matters is can they make the case.

On the flip side, you get these benefits:

1.   Guest shot on America's Most Wanted. (You'll have your 15 minutes of fame)
2.   Front row seat on how the American justice system works.
3.   Federal prison after a lengthy trial unless they're going for terrorist which you may never get to trial.
4.   Permanent baring from owning a computer since this would be a computer related crime.
5.   Free medical, housing, and food during your stay in prison.
6.   Virtually no chance for employment afterwards.
7.   Possibility of several STDs some of which are very lethal while in prison and some you can never be cured of.
8.   Losing your right to vote (some states are looking to overturn this however and if you are a US Citizen).
9.   Losing your right to own a gun. (if you are a US Citizen)
10. You might get to see this post again during your trial as the prosecution tries to prove you knew you were committing crimes.

All this does assume you are a US Citizen and some of it applies even if you're not.  If they do make the terrorist part stick, you won't have to worry about item 6.  You'll never get out of prison.

I share your desire for our game but not badly enough to commit a crime.  We've waited for almost 4 years now.  We can wait longer for one of the successors to arise.  And in all honesty, we'll likely get a better game with one of the successors.

[Taceus Jiwede]

I haven't found any games where their "tank" class is even as durable as a CoH Brute or Scrapper, let alone a CoH Tanker.  Most games, "Tank" means "a character who taunts enemies, wears slightly heavier armor, and dies in three hits instead of two (unless a healer is constantly dumping their best heals on him)".

To be fair.  CoH had super, SUPER easy tanks to play.  Being able to stand in a room and just get the ever living crap beating out of you isn't really most MMO's idea of a tank.  Most MMO's focus on mitigation and aggro control.  CoH tanks also had a insanely stupid amount of threat generation.  It was almost impossible to lose aggro in CoH unless you hit the aggro cap.  In other MMO's you often just have to let some trash go because your aggro control is better focused on dangerous enemies the DPS cant  kill in 2 -3 seconds.

I loved CoH's tanks.  They were awesome to play.  Brutes even more so.  But they are in no way the standard of MMO's.  Most tanks are much more difficult to play in MMO's then they were in CoH.  Part of this was enemy group size in CoH though.  Most MMO's dont have you battling groups of 15-18 enemies at once.  Its more along the lines of 5-6.  And that would be a rough group to handle as a tank.  If I tanked a group of 6 enemies in a "traditional" MMO.  The weakest of the enemies I wouldn't even waste my threat generation on, its the DPS's job to handle the trash.

[Taceus Jiwede]

7.   Possibility of several STDs some of which are very lethal while in prison and some you can never be cured of.

You are much more likely to be stabbed to death then this one.  So you can add that to the list "Know what its like to become a ruthless inmate because its either you or them"

Seriously though.  What your implying really doesn't happen as often as people believe.  At least not in the Colorado Prison system, you gotta really be a bad person or do something where the person feels physical violence isn't enough for you.  In fact if unless you are in like San Quinton or a equally notorious violent prison you probably would just get in a couple of fights here and there.  And then just get really good at card games and spend 10-15 years of your life super bored.  Some prisons you are even allowed to own a TV and Playstation 1 & 2.

However if that terrorist charge you mentioned stuck....phew....good luck.  There aint no coming back from that.

[LadyVamp]

You are much more likely to be stabbed to death then this one.  So you can add that to the list "Know what its like to become a ruthless inmate because its either you or them"

Seriously though.  What your implying really doesn't happen as often as people believe.  At least not in the Colorado Prison system, you gotta really be a bad person or do something where the person feels physical violence isn't enough for you.  In fact if unless you are in like San Quinton or a equally notorious violent prison you probably would just get in a couple of fights here and there.  And then just get really good at card games and spend 10-15 years of your life super bored.

However if that terrorist charge you mentioned stuck....phew....good luck.  There aint no coming back from that.

Good catch.  Forgot about the prison fights.  I will admit my knowledge of the system is at best overheard conversations between former inmates.  I have no direct experience beyond a few speeding tickets from decade and a half ago, and I prefer to keep it that way.

Probably right about the STDs.  But why take the risk on that one too.  The point I was hoping I was making is an incredible amount of risk for practically no gain.

True about the terrorist charge but the hate crime charge won't do one any favors either.

Ed. Note: Topic has been split.  You can read about the Orlando situation over here.  Otherwise, back to New Efforts.  -Tahquitz

[hejtmane]

To be fair.  CoH had super, SUPER easy tanks to play.  Being able to stand in a room and just get the ever living crap beating out of you isn't really most MMO's idea of a tank.  Most MMO's focus on mitigation and aggro control.  CoH tanks also had a insanely stupid amount of threat generation.  It was almost impossible to lose aggro in CoH unless you hit the aggro cap.  In other MMO's you often just have to let some trash go because your aggro control is better focused on dangerous enemies the DPS cant  kill in 2 -3 seconds.

I loved CoH's tanks.  They were awesome to play.  Brutes even more so.  But they are in no way the standard of MMO's.  Most tanks are much more difficult to play in MMO's then they were in CoH.  Part of this was enemy group size in CoH though.  Most MMO's dont have you battling groups of 15-18 enemies at once.  Its more along the lines of 5-6.  And that would be a rough group to handle as a tank.  If I tanked a group of 6 enemies in a "traditional" MMO.  The weakest of the enemies I wouldn't even waste my threat generation on, its the DPS's job to handle the trash.

When I was raiding in Rift one of the fights required not one but three tanks with proper gear levels and we had to rotate talk about a pain because you had to swap agro but not grab agro  and still try to dps as best you could in your tank build between swaps so everyone else had to make up the lose of dps and you still had to have the same amount of healing. I had another one where we had to have two tanks or you could not complete the raid requirements. That is the stuff I miss about COH you did not have to have x y and z to run TFS in other games you have to have x, y and z are you can not complete the task. Heck you would have a special build for certain fights at least we could rotate builds in the game pretty easy (not in combat) but anyways there was a lot to like about COH including not needing the holy trinty

[brothermutant]

I want my game back.

[Taceus Jiwede]

When I was raiding in Rift one of the fights required not one but three tanks with proper gear levels and we had to rotate talk about a pain because you had to swap agro but not grab agro  and still try to dps as best you could in your tank build between swaps so everyone else had to make up the lose of dps and you still had to have the same amount of healing. I had another one where we had to have two tanks or you could not complete the raid requirements. That is the stuff I miss about COH you did not have to have x y and z to run TFS in other games you have to have x, y and z are you can not complete the task. Heck you would have a special build for certain fights at least we could rotate builds in the game pretty easy (not in combat) but anyways there was a lot to like about COH including not needing the holy trinty

Ya CoH approach to team dynamics was certainly a refreshing one.  I like the traditional style of tanking and teaming up too, but CoH really had it done right.  I think CoH's breaking away from traditional MMO roles would really shine these days.  People are growing tired of the traditional MMO style.  I have played lots of MMO's but all of them were only for short periods of time.  A year at most.  I played CoH from start to finish with only a few minor breaks here and there.  Even after years it still feels surreal sometimes.  That a game that good even existed.

[Brigadine]

I'm not hopeful we'll ever get any cooperation from NC$oft.  I'm thinking the only way anything is ever going to move there is if there is a change in ownership.

I'm continuing to put my faith in SCoRE.

I know I'm just one single person, but NC$oft haven't seen a penny of my money since the shutdown and they never will again.

This is why I was really hoping the nexon buyout would be successful. nexon has sold Ips before, they even sold the NA version of NF2.... they even allowed their name and logo to be removed, partially because it was pre launch in US.

[Azrael]

What are the possible chances of us ever getting an offline single player version?

Maybe being able to play with the wife over LAN or something.

Increasingly, our best hope lies with Paragon Chat and it's future successor.  All I want is an 'offline' and 'LAN' mode so I can play with my honoury duo-partner.  It doesn't 'have' to be a central server with thousands of players on that 'could' be shut down again.  I only ever had a handful of players I played with online anyhow.  I don't need 1000s of players to enjoy it.  (Ironic, with it being an MMO...)

Something discrete.  Something with 'shards' that can't be taken down.  ie.  Your run your own Emulation micro server peer to peer.  It's not a 'hey, we're here 800 thousand player strong central server in waving its brazenness in the corporate IP owner's face.'  No.  It's not in NC Soft's face.

Never know.  The 'talks' may ignite to life.  And we get our game back. 

But the one concrete thing being done is SCoRE's Paragon Chat.  And we recently got another cluster of travel powers.  That wouldn't have seemed possible at one point.  Let alone Icon that preceded it.

Super bases, summon NPCs and own map private instance GM modes are on the horizon.  These things increasingly give the players something(!) to do.  Those are key bits of functionality because it gives CoH players a form of intimacy back which they had with Super Groups.  A bit of creativity.  Being able to summon NPCs on your own maps.  It's not hard to envision combat (PVP?) on these 'private maps' one day (so the 'protocol' stress load isn't as great.  ie.  Pocket Universe Micro Server Combat...).  That's at the tail end of the 'hand over.'

If the whole Paragon Chat timeline comes to pass, we'll stand at the threshold of the really exciting stuff...such as...  Further down the line, should our best dreams come true...NPC pathing and combat!  Mission creators!!  Maybe even 'zone' editors!!!

Not to mention other bits of smaller functionality that are bringing yet more bricks of the game back 'home.'  Just being able to 'invite someone' to 'team' would be nice.  (So I can see where they are on the map!)

It's not an overnight equation.  But given code and time...

Azrael.

PS. 

I'm not hopeful we'll ever get any cooperation from NC$oft.  I'm thinking the only way anything is ever going to move there is if there is a change in ownership.

I'm continuing to put my faith in SCoRE.

I know I'm just one single person, but NC$oft haven't seen a penny of my money since the shutdown and they never will again.

PPS. 

I want my game back.

Me too. ;)

[Arcana]

Copyright Law should be changed to MANDATE that 'rental ware' software companies are obliged to honour basic functionality.

That's not really possible, mostly because copyright law has nothing to do with what you're talking about here.

What's fair?  'Fair use?'  We're talking about the limits to the use of something as decreed by Law makers and Corporations who lobby that 'fair use' stacked in their favour.

My own opinion of what is fair?

Ie.  I can't have the right to a server in perpetuity. 

BUT...

I can have the right to an offline mode and limited 'community' online modes by allowing peer to peer access functionality so a bunch of 8 friends could still form a team in CoH and play the content.

How would you draft a law that mandated that if anyone writes a game they must specifically include certain features?  At least in the US, that seems to be be almost impossible.

I think you're conflating the legal ideas of ownership vs licensing, and copyright protection vs warranty.  Copyright law doesn't prevent us from having an "offline mode."  Copyright protection prevents us from legally duplicating the game ourselves.  It would be extremely difficult to craft a law that said, in effect, you can steal anything you want as long as you can make a case you "need" it.  That would basically eliminate all copyright protection.  The entire *point* of copyright protection is to grant creators essentially unlimited control over their creations, and not subject them to what everyone else thinks is "fair."

"Fair use" is not a colloquial term but a legal one, and it specifically encapsulates the exceptions to that unlimited control.  Those exceptions primarily revolve around using minimal amounts of copyright material for the purposes of discussion, education, or other discourse.  No element of "fair use" involves any discussion of what is "fair" in the colloquial sense because copyright presumes creators have exclusive ownership rights.

The problem is in part the question of what you think you "bought" when you bought the game, and at least in the US you bought a box.  You licensed the game.  Basically, you rented the game, you didn't buy it.  The notion that you are entitled to anything at all rests on the notion that you bought something, so you own something, so you have the right to continue to use that something.  But legally, at least in the US and any other country with similar laws, you did not.  That's actually one of the core problems here, and copyright law doesn't really have much to do with it.  Legally, *anything* could be purchased this way.  Car manufacturers could license cars to us**, and revoke that license whenever they wanted to.  TV manufacturers could do that**.  Blender manufacturers could do that.  The problem is that consumers wouldn't stand for that.  We stand for that in the software industry, and that's why they do it.

So long as consumers continue to accept licensing without any ownership rights in software, and increasingly in media in general, any talk of revising copyright law or any other law to protect consumer rights is irrelevant.  Those laws can't protect consumer rights when consumers willingly give those rights away.


** Technically both of those have software in them these days, and there are software licensing issues there, but that's besides the main point.

[LateNights]

I agree with Azrael - asking people to pay hundreds or thousands of dollars and then suddenly turning around saying the equivalent of "games over kids, sucks to be you", when they can't be bothered to let us play them anymore is verging on criminal.

The first Neverwinter did pretty much what "we" want years ago - offline campaign with the ability to play online with whomever you choose - not sure how it worked exactly but I'm sure someone does...

[Taceus Jiwede]

I agree with Azrael - asking people to pay hundreds or thousands of dollars and then suddenly turning around saying the equivalent of "games over kids, sucks to be you", when they can't be bothered to let us play them anymore is verging on criminal.

The first Neverwinter did pretty much what "we" want years ago - offline campaign with the ability to play online with whomever you choose - not sure how it worked exactly but I'm sure someone does...

I see where this sentiment comes from.  And I don't even really want to say I disagree with it because I want CoH back.  But to be fair, you were paying for the game as you played it.  Much like renting a house if you have lived there for 5 years and paid thousands upon thousands of dollars it doesn't make the house yours.  They were providing on going services as well as server space and hardware and that costs upkeep.  I would love CoH to come back, but I can't really say I feel like I have any ownership in it.  Especially because almost all of CoH content updates were free excluding CoV and Going Rogue.

[LateNights]

I see where this sentiment comes from.  And I don't even really want to say I disagree with it because I want CoH back.  But to be fair, you were paying for the game as you played it.  Much like renting a house if you have lived there for 5 years and paid thousands upon thousands of dollars it doesn't make the house yours.  They were providing on going services as well as server space and hardware and that costs upkeep.  I would love CoH to come back, but I can't really say I feel like I have any ownership in it.  Especially because almost all of CoH content updates were free excluding CoV and Going Rogue.

Did you really just compare a video game to owning a home?

The funniest part about this is, normally I'm the first person to lend monetary support to game developers when possible because it is a job, and I understand that - but at some point it would be nice to have that faith returned rather than be screwed over...

I mean realistically, its not like they couldn't have made the game available offline in some fashion...

But the players that did pay for all those years weren't worth it, full stop.

That's like Jesus Christ returning tomorrow just to be crucified all over again...

[Taceus Jiwede]

Did you really just compare a video game to owning a home?

The funniest part about this is, normally I'm the first person to lend monetary support to game developers when possible because it is a job, and I understand that - but at some point it would be nice to have that faith returned rather than be screwed over...

I mean realistically, its not like they couldn't have made the game available offline in some fashion...

But the players that did pay for all those years weren't worth it, full stop.

That's like Jesus Christ returning tomorrow just to be crucified all over again...

I compared the idea of renting to ownership.  When a game is mostly server side you are essentially renting the game and who knows how realistic it would be to give you an offline version of the game especially when that usually doesn't happen in the MMO world. At best companies will turn a blind eye to private servers or in even more rare cases they will acknowledge and condone a private server like Daybreak did with EQ.   

I also never said that the players who paid all those years weren't worth it.  I said they got a return on what they paid.  Nerfs/Buff, New Archtypes, New content, and New Areas.  It's not like you paid for the game one time, and then it never changed but were still forced to a pay a monthly fee.  And you also weren't running the game from your own servers, nor did you have a staff to maintain those servers, or a group of people who would answer any questions you might have and you especially didn't have a group of people you could report bugs or exploits to that would then do their best to handle it.  MMO companies provide all of that and more, and that is what you are paying for.

As for Jesus, whatever you say.  I don't really see how that makes any sense at all but okay.

[LadyVamp]

I can certainly see how playing an mmo is like renting an apartment or a house or leasing a car.  You don't own it.  You pay money for the privilege of getting to use it.  In fact, a car lease is probably a better analogy than renting a place.  The payment we all paid to get the client/user account is like a deposit.  The monthly installments are like monthly lease payments.  It just so happens the lease term was open and NCSoft reserved the right to end the lease.  NCSoft took care of all the maintenance.

What baffles me is why they are choosing to not resell the server parts to parties who are interested that have the means.  In the car analogy, it's like they prefer to park the car on the back of the lot and let is rust away rather than sell it off.

I always thought of it as stubborn pride.  I think they now know they made a mistake but are too full of pride to admit it and return the game to service.  Truth is, if they wanted to call it new and improved with new content but just turn it back on and make it out like it was a remake, I'll gladly support that illusion for them.  If that will help them get over their insecurities and get the game back in service.

But the truth is they're probably reading this (someone is keeping an eye on it I'm sure and reporting in) and thinking when will these people move on.  The answer, of course, is when we have it back online or a successor has been put into service.  Want to help us move on, NCSoft?  Sell or give away the IP.

[LateNights]

I can certainly see how playing an mmo is like renting an apartment or a house or leasing a car.  You don't own it.  You pay money for the privilege of getting to use it.  In fact, a car lease is probably a better analogy than renting a place.  The payment we all paid to get the client/user account is like a deposit.  The monthly installments are like monthly lease payments.  It just so happens the lease term was open and NCSoft reserved the right to end the lease.  NCSoft took care of all the maintenance.

What baffles me is why they are choosing to not resell the server parts to parties who are interested that have the means.  In the car analogy, it's like they prefer to park the car on the back of the lot and let is rust away rather than sell it off.

I always thought of it as stubborn pride.  I think they now know they made a mistake but are too full of pride to admit it and return the game to service.  Truth is, if they wanted to call it new and improved with new content but just turn it back on and make it out like it was a remake, I'll gladly support that illusion for them.  If that will help them get over their insecurities and get the game back in service.

But the truth is they're probably reading this (someone is keeping an eye on it I'm sure and reporting in) and thinking when will these people move on.  The answer, of course, is when we have it back online or a successor has been put into service.  Want to help us move on, NCSoft?  Sell or give away the IP.

That's great that you can see how it's like leasing, really it is...

Analogies are great if you're trying to explain something to someone.

But you're not - I understand perfectly what's happened and why - my problem is I think it's a ****** deal - which I've said more than once now...

Moderator Note:  Remember that the profanity filter is no longer active. - eabrace

[Taceus Jiwede]

I can certainly see how playing an mmo is like renting an apartment or a house or leasing a car.  You don't own it.  You pay money for the privilege of getting to use it.  In fact, a car lease is probably a better analogy than renting a place.  The payment we all paid to get the client/user account is like a deposit.  The monthly installments are like monthly lease payments.  It just so happens the lease term was open and NCSoft reserved the right to end the lease.  NCSoft took care of all the maintenance.

What baffles me is why they are choosing to not resell the server parts to parties who are interested that have the means.  In the car analogy, it's like they prefer to park the car on the back of the lot and let is rust away rather than sell it off.

I always thought of it as stubborn pride.  I think they now know they made a mistake but are too full of pride to admit it and return the game to service.  Truth is, if they wanted to call it new and improved with new content but just turn it back on and make it out like it was a remake, I'll gladly support that illusion for them.  If that will help them get over their insecurities and get the game back in service.

But the truth is they're probably reading this (someone is keeping an eye on it I'm sure and reporting in) and thinking when will these people move on.  The answer, of course, is when we have it back online or a successor has been put into service.  Want to help us move on, NCSoft?  Sell or give away the IP.

Its funny you mention that actually because I was torn between the Car and the House analogy.  I just assumed more people rent to own on Cars then Houses so I went with the latter.  Although in hindsight I agree that the car is a better analogy.

I also agree that it is just stubborn pride.  I have no idea why the have no intention of selling the game.  Like you said they would almost rather see that car sit in the backyard and be consumed by weeds.

Maybe they are afraid they will sell it and it will be more successful under someone else's management :p

I wonder what kind of offer they would have to see in order to sell it, if there even is one.

But you're not - I understand perfectly what's happened and why - my problem is I think it's a ****** deal - which I've said more than once now...

No one claimed that it wasn't a crummy deal, we all think its a crummy deal clearly.  Justifying why the charge a monthly fee and saying that it doesn't entitle you to ownership of the game doesn't demerit it being a crummy deal.  It is simply stating that isn't a bargaining chip you can bring to the table when trying to hash out a better deal.

[LateNights]

No one claimed that itr wasn't a crummy deal, we all think its a crummy deal clearly.  Justifying why the charge a monthly fee and saying that it doesn't entitle you to ownership of the game doesn't demerit it being a crummy deal.  It is simply stating that isn't a bargaining chip you can bring to the table when trying to hash out a better deal.

Sorry, but just who was using it in that context

Edit : Azraels argument seems to me to be that he paid for a functioning piece of software when he paid for the game the first time - not at all to do with a monthly fee.

[LadyVamp]

But you're not - I understand perfectly what's happened and why - my problem is I think it's a ****** deal - which I've said more than once now...

They earned no hero points with me either on their choice to shutdown the game.  I thought that was short sighted on their part considering all the hero movies being (re)made.  They've damaged their reputation by taking this action.  That's been stressed quite a bit over the years here too.  And they seem to repeat those mistakes over and over so I gather from reading this thread.

I would have preferred they published a eol schedule years ago just as many OS and business applications do.  With that, we could have avoided this pain by building a replacement while coh was still operational.  Perhaps even built things like toon and player created content transfers.  In the grand scheme of things, an 8 to 10 year run for versions of OS and applications is not that unusual.  Coh did have a good run.  And I really do think NCSoft didn't understand the US and European markets and ended up killing a product that could have had many more years of life.  I still don't believe they understand those markets even today.  But I still believe they know they killed something good.  Too bad that lesson came too late to save Coh from /dev/null