New efforts!

[Surelle]

So ncsoft owns coh name? Does anyone know why they wont let it go or restart the business again?
Is there nothing we can do more with paragon chat without colliding with the copyright laws?

NCSoft has never once sold off, rented or leased a single one of their many killed-off IPs.  Moreover, both Paragon Studios and Cryptic Studios tried to buy CoX back from NCSoft after the City was shuttered, and both attempts failed.  Clearly, if they aren't going to sell to the two companies that created, maintained, and ran that game for them, then they're not going to sell it to anyone.  It's 3 1/2 years later, and here we still are, in the same boat.  Sign up for the "Wake me if there's ever real news" thread, and draw your own conclusions from there I guess.

Paragon Chat is, at its core, an open source XMPP chat program which cannot host combat or mobs the way they would need hosting to run a full-fledged MMO.  If it could, we'd be back into illegal territory much like an emu would, because that stuff was hosted on NCSoft's side of the fence. 

I'm half-surprised NCSoft hasn't come after Paragon Chat anyway to be honest.  They are just that nasty.  PC does feature quite plainly every 100% identical backdrop of the original game (which they still own but have chosen not to run anymore) in its entirety, not to mention the whole character creator (which they also own, but are also no longer running).  There's not some law preventing them from gunning for Paragon Chat.  However, because so few people use it and it's non-profit, not to mention that it obviously has no combat nor mobs so that it can never really be the real deal, they haven't bothered.  But our legal leg to stand on here really doesn't exist in any but the most tenuous form.  Let's hope that form is never tested.

[darkgob]

NCSoft has never once sold off, rented or leased a single one of their many killed-off IPs.  Moreover, both Paragon Studios and Cryptic Studios tried to buy CoX back from NCSoft after the City was shuttered, and both attempts failed.  Clearly, if they aren't going to sell to the two companies that created, maintained, and ran that game for them, then they're not going to sell it to anyone.

It's well-known that the Paragon Studios negotiations failed due to a pre-existing personality conflict (the fact that Paragon was shuttered along with CoH despite it not being their only project for NCSoft is pretty telling).  As for the thing with Cryptic, why would they sell it while the game was still active and successful?  There may be other reasons for doubting the eventual success of current negotiations, but this is not one.

[Canine]

I liked how you could build up your tank from Training Origins to Single Origins to become a much more rounded tank depending on your slotting.  (I remember my duo partner slotting his En/Invul tank for damage...and wondering why his defences were weak...  He was 'Skanking.')

I think (and hope) you meant scranking, because what you wrote means something else entirely.  But then maybe he was a major reggae fan... you didn't mention. :)

On that note however, how many 'hybrid class' names do you lot recall?

The ones I can think of off hand are:

Blapper (melee blaster)
Blaptroller (Usually elec end draining build, AKA Sapper, but I think other variants were around)
Scranker (offensive tanker)
Offender (offensive specced defender)

[Surelle]

It's well-known that the Paragon Studios negotiations failed due to a pre-existing personality conflict (the fact that Paragon was shuttered along with CoH despite it not being their only project for NCSoft is pretty telling).  As for the thing with Cryptic, why would they sell it while the game was still active and successful?  There may be other reasons for doubting the eventual success of current negotiations, but this is not one.

Clearly you did not see C. Bruce (Back Alley Brawler)'s recent Reddit AMA, where he mentions that Cryptic tried to buy CoX after it was shuttered-- after Paragon Studios' buyout attempt failed.  He also states quite plainly that the real hangup for Paragon's originally buying CoX from NCSoft was that NCSoft would not allow them to transfer any player accounts or account data.  Can you imagine the furor among the player base back at the end of 2012 if the game had transferred ownership, and everybody was told they'd lose all their characters (even their hard-earned 50s!), all their vet rewards, and all their cash shop purchases?  Yeah, that would have gone over like a lead balloon I'm sure.  That is why Paragon didn't buy the game, and it is most likely why Cryptic's attempt to buy CoX post-shuttering failed as well. 

However, I can see where trying to transfer account data (including banking and credit card info, etc.) could become a legal hot mess.  Moreover, when I think of other MMOs that have been shuttered then rezzed (Hellgate:  London and A.P.B. Reloaded both immediately come to mind here), all their players lost all their previous characters, items and game progress when those games re-launched under new ownership as well, so there's got to be something to that issue.

It has also been said that NCSoft reuses the same back end code in several other of their MMORPGs, so that could have created a further security vulnerability for the other games they've still got running; that probably played into them not selling to Paragon or Cryptic to a degree as well.

Edited to Add:  Here is the Reddit link, but you may have to expand replies and conversations to read everything he wrote:  https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/4gv8xl/c/d2lkkqd

Here's one of the pertinent C. Bruce answers:



    Second, do YOU believe the chatter that there are STILL on-going negotiations from a group of folks willing to license/buy the CoH IP from NCSoft or do you think it's just wishful thinking/unrealistic hype?

Honestly, I haven't followed it that much. I've no idea what kind of negotiatins any third party has had with NCSoft. I know that Matt Miller once confided that Paragon tried to acquire the franchise from NCSoft and go at it on their own, but the big hangup was the liability of active accounts and how all of that got transferred from one owner to another. Like acquiring CoH a year after it had shut down would have been more likely, but by then it would be too late to matter. Pretty sure Cryptic approached NCSoft about re-acquiring City of Heroes when they shuttered Paragon as well. I have no specifics about it, but clearly nothing came of that.

This was the second MMO I worked on that was shut down by NCSoft, and NetDevil did a similiar thing where they tried to assume all operational costs in order to keep Auto Assault live. At the time, NCSoft seemed to have this 'go big, or go home' attitude about their franchises. They would have rather completely shut down prematurely than let it linger on, even it if was profitable.

In my experience, every publisher will always talk as if they're on the verge of signing a deal even if there's zero chance of that ever happening. It costs them nothing to say that. But when it comes time to writing up contracts and signing paperwork, that's where the process stalls out.

[LadyVamp]

Clearly you did not see C. Bruce (Back Alley Brawler)'s recent Reddit AMA, where he clearly states that Cryptic tried to buy CoX after it was shuttered-- after Paragon Studios' buyout attempt failed.  He also states quite plainly that the real hangup for Paragon's originally buying CoX from NCSoft was that NCSoft would not allow them to transfer any player accounts or account data.  Can you imagine the furor among the player base back at the end of 2012 if the game had transferred ownership, and everybody was told they'd lose all their characters (even their hard-earned 50s!), all their vet rewards, and all their cash shop purchases?  Yeah, that would have gone over like a lead balloon I'm sure.  That is why Paragon didn't buy the game, and it is why Cryptic's attempt to buy CoX post-shuttering failed as well. 

However, I can see where trying to transfer account data (including banking and credit card info, etc.) could become a legal hot mess.  Moreover, when I think of other MMOs that have been shuttered then rezzed (Hellgate:  London and A.P.B. Reloaded both immediately come to mind here), all their players lost all their previous characters, items and game progress when those games re-launched under new ownership as well, so there's got to be something to that issue.

It has also been said that NCSoft reuses the same back end code in several other of their MMORPGs, so that could have created a further security vulnerability for the other games they've still got running; that probably played into them not selling to Paragon or Cryptic to a degree as well.

Edited to Add:  Here is the Reddit link, but you may have to expand replies and conversations to read everything he wrote:  https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/4gv8xl/c/d2lkkqd

In 2012, likely we'd be upset about losing our toons.  But today, if I had to rebuild from scratch all of my toons, so be it.  I likely would enjoy the challenge and certainly would do a few things differently. 

I'm willing to bet that if Cryptic were to go to NCSoft today and say, "we accept your terms," NCSoft would find yet another reason not to sell.
  Cryptic might would try again if we could guarantee a minimum profit margin for them over the next 5 to 10 years, but we can't make such a guarantee.  I do feel if they would write new content, new stories in effect, that the player base would come back despite having to rebuild from scratch.  They could offer those of us who have a valid license code for the (old) CoH a single, lvl 50 as the starting point with say 1 million influence (infamy/information) so we could jump straight into the new content.  All other toons (including valid license holders) would have to start from level 1.  Nice icing on that cake but certainly not necessary to draw me back to the game.  Hell, I'd go back to the subscription only model.  15/month isn't too much to ask.  I'd go as high as 30/month for a single account.  I had 2 active accounts for most of the game's life.

[TonyV]

Clearly you did not see C. Bruce (Back Alley Brawler)'s recent Reddit AMA, where he mentions that Cryptic tried to buy CoX after it was shuttered-- after Paragon Studios' buyout attempt failed.
...
"Pretty sure Cryptic approached NCSoft about re-acquiring City of Heroes when they shuttered Paragon as well. I have no specifics about it, but clearly nothing came of that."1

To be fair, I'm pretty sure that Chris is incorrect about this.  I don't think he was lying, just relying on faulty memories.  The shutdown happened after Chris was gone from Paragon Studios.  There were people who asked Jack Emmert to approach NCsoft, and at one point he fueled speculation when at PAX East 2013, he told a panel, "I'll tell you what Jeremy [Gaffney, Executive Producer at Carbine], just tell anybody at NCsoft, pick up the phone, I'm there," saying that if NCsoft wants to talk about City of Heroes, just give him a call.

As far as I know, and as far as anyone I've talked to who would know has let me know, no one at NCsoft ever actually picked up the phone, and this short off-the-cuff comment was the limit of Cryptic's efforts to reacquire City of Heroes.  There were never any kind of formal negotiations or even communications.

[Doc Artz]

Hmm, I would seriously pay max 70$ / month to have the game back as it was before closure.

I totally agree about continuing to pay each month. Several months ago I once again began to set aside money to help as needed. I've been  paying a minimum of $100 each month since then. It's looking as if bring back our game is  going to be a long haul with more struggle to come  >:( . I strongly urge others who want COH to return to consider begin donating what they are able  :roll:

[slickriptide]

Since the announcement that he is moving to Daybreak, Jack has been showing up sporadically in the CoH Survivors group on Facebook and offering to answer questions about CoH. If you want to know what Cryptic did or did not do, maybe you can ask him.

[Surelle]

To be fair, I'm pretty sure that Chris is incorrect about this.  I don't think he was lying, just relying on faulty memories.  The shutdown happened after Chris was gone from Paragon Studios.  There were people who asked Jack Emmert to approach NCsoft, and at one point he fueled speculation when at PAX East 2013, he told a panel, "I'll tell you what Jeremy [Gaffney, Executive Producer at Carbine], just tell anybody at NCsoft, pick up the phone, I'm there," saying that if NCsoft wants to talk about City of Heroes, just give him a call.

As far as I know, and as far as anyone I've talked to who would know has let me know, no one at NCsoft ever actually picked up the phone, and this short off-the-cuff comment was the limit of Cryptic's efforts to reacquire City of Heroes.  There were never any kind of formal negotiations or even communications.

I'm not sure what was in his head when he wrote that.  You could be right.  However, Chris himself said right after he left Paragon, he went directly to work for Cryptic.  He was there until a year ago (which would be 2015), when he left them to work at Deep Silver Volition (no wonder Saint's Row 3's travel powers remind people so much of CoX! Haha!).   So he would have been at Cryptic when any offer (if there was one) was attempted,  through when it failed and well beyond that.

I guess it doesn't matter in the end, because NCSoft has never budged on any game for anybody, and they still haven't for CoX to this day.   :-\  Oh well, we're no worse off than ever, and at least we have Paragon Chat!  I don't even RP really and I still like logging on now and then just to see the progress (which is coming right along from its first iteration), and to fly through ye old zones once again.   :)

[Surelle]

Since the announcement that he is moving to Daybreak, Jack has been showing up sporadically in the CoH Survivors group on Facebook and offering to answer questions about CoH. If you want to know what Cryptic did or did not do, maybe you can ask him.

Wow, awesome!!  I don't have a Facebook though, lol.  Does anybody here?  Not that I want to bug him to death either.  But if he offered to answer a few questions.....

[Arcana]

To be fair, I'm pretty sure that Chris is incorrect about this.  I don't think he was lying, just relying on faulty memories.  The shutdown happened after Chris was gone from Paragon Studios.

It is possible Matt mentioned this to Chris when both were at Cryptic, after the shutdown.  It is also possible that Matt wasn't specifically referring to the buyout attempt immediately prior to the shutdown announcement.  There were so many things going on at Paragon even long before shutdown that I still can't be sure I have all the corner pieces in the right places.  Like I'm aware of three separate attempts to sequel-ize CoH, and I'm not even sure that's all of them.

Technically speaking Paragon Studios' origin story actually starts with Marvel Universe Online, and none of us really knows that whole story.  Paragon has always existed in a hedge maze of Chinese walls.  So when we get these bits and pieces of information, its important to remember they might not actually fit in any part of the puzzle we're even aware of yet.

[Angel Phoenix77]

....

[Azrael]

It's well-known that the Paragon Studios negotiations failed due to a pre-existing personality conflict (the fact that Paragon was shuttered along with CoH despite it not being their only project for NCSoft is pretty telling).

Someone I know thinks it's 'personal.'

Both in the swiftness of the Studio shut down and the shutdown of CoH.

...and the refusal to sell. 

At any price?

Azrael.

Ps. 

NCSoft has never once sold off, rented or leased a single one of their many killed-off IPs.  Moreover, both Paragon Studios and Cryptic Studios tried to buy CoX back from NCSoft after the City was shuttered, and both attempts failed.  Clearly, if they aren't going to sell to the two companies that created, maintained, and ran that game for them, then they're not going to sell it to anyone.  It's 3 1/2 years later, and here we still are, in the same boat.  Sign up for the "Wake me if there's ever real news" thread, and draw your own conclusions from there I guess.

Paragon Chat is, at its core, an open source XMPP chat program which cannot host combat or mobs the way they would need hosting to run a full-fledged MMO.  If it could, we'd be back into illegal territory much like an emu would, because that stuff was hosted on NCSoft's side of the fence. 

I'm half-surprised NCSoft hasn't come after Paragon Chat anyway to be honest.  They are just that nasty.  PC does feature quite plainly every 100% identical backdrop of the original game (which they still own but have chosen not to run anymore) in its entirety, not to mention the whole character creator (which they also own, but are also no longer running).  There's not some law preventing them from gunning for Paragon Chat.  However, because so few people use it and it's non-profit, not to mention that it obviously has no combat nor mobs so that it can never really be the real deal, they haven't bothered.  But our legal leg to stand on here really doesn't exist in any but the most tenuous form.  Let's hope that form is never tested.

Paragon Chat. 

'As soon as it gets combat NC Soft will go after it.  Because then it will be a game.'  That theory is still a ways off being tested.

Currently anyone can host a Paragon Chat server.  How are NC Soft going to 'go after it' and 'shut it down?'  Are they going to go after the rump of their former player base and 'go legal nasty' for a 'Chat' program?

But if there were no 'central' server and it only had a discrete Peer to Peer hosting for combat?'  I'm guessing it will be no 'central server' like Nostralius.

Any kind of 'combat' on a 'live action' protocol seems a couple of years out or longer to me from my gut feeling.  But there's plenty of other good stuff in the pipeline e.g. Super Bases and other bits of the 'game' infrastructure being put in the place on the PC timeline.  The folks doing Paragon Chat are pretty clever people.  I trust them and thank them for their efforts so far.

PPS.

Is there nothing we can do more with paragon chat without colliding with the copyright laws?

Well. 


I think we take the current amount of shutdown time and double it, at least, to get our game back.  And it might not be in the form we want but it might be 'good enough' and it might allow us to 'own it' in a community sense.

We're talking patience.  Determination.  'Slowly, slowly catch a monkey.'


What else?

Refuse to buy rental ware that require 'online' modes IF there is no 'get out of jail' card.  ie.  Offline mode.  Peer to Peer/Lan mode.  Ie 2.  In the event of an eventual and inevitable shutdown, the fan base's emotional investments (and monetary ones...) are protected from Corporate greed and over reach. 

It's a very cynical business model to, in my view, to rent software and then cut the cord when people can't afford to pay anymore (despite having payed hundreds or a thousand £ for a product...) or the central server shuts down.

Copyright Law should be changed to MANDATE that 'rental ware' software companies are obliged to honour basic functionality.

We can and should refuse to buy NC Soft products or any other company who treats their community shoddily.  Kicked to the curb after loyal support.  Corporations have to realise it's a two way street.  And we have to exercise the power of the hand and the right to decline purchase and bring pressure to the fore through online communities and the relevant law makers.

What's fair?  'Fair use?'  We're talking about the limits to the use of something as decreed by Law makers and Corporations who lobby that 'fair use' stacked in their favour.

My own opinion of what is fair?

Ie.  I can't have the right to a server in perpetuity. 

BUT...

I can have the right to an offline mode and limited 'community' online modes by allowing peer to peer access functionality so a bunch of 8 friends could still form a team in CoH and play the content.

It's up to the CoH community to pile on the pressure to the law makers and force companies like NC Soft to do the 'right thing.'

It's 2016.  If Unreal Tourney could have an 'offline' and LAN mode all those who wish to run their own 'servers' back in the day how come 20 years later we've gone 'backwards?'

[HEATSTROKE]

sadly.. I dont think we will ever fly in Paragon City again... there has been no news whatsoever for a long time now.. not even a negotiations have failed..

have to hope for City of Titans

[Sinistar]

So ncsoft owns coh name? Does anyone know why they wont let it go or restart the business again?
Is there nothing we can do more with paragon chat without colliding with the copyright laws?

We could always suit up and do a stealth raid on NCSoft HQ and get into the servers and backup storage rooms and obtain  all the CoH data.

1. Send knock out gas through all the vents to disable any and all personnel in the building.
2. Suit up in all black attire with face and gas masks and slip into the building via the roof vents
3. Locate the server backups and obtain any and all backup data of CoH, and for good measure obtain the backup data for Auto Assault, Tabula Rasa and other cancelled NCSoft games.
4. Locate the vaults where any backup discs are stored and obtain them.
5. Leave a note for NCsoft saying "so long and thanks for all the fish!"
6. Return to base
7. Get teh backups restored to servers.
8. Test everything.
9. Celebrate!

[Tahquitz]

I would love it if Tabula Rasa came back, but with the settlement between Richard Garriott and NCSoft, I wouldn't be surprised if the CEO deleted the title, pull the hard drives it resided on, hammered a punch through the discs, then sent them off into space to ensure it would never come back. (Or a less dramatic equivalent.)

[Vee]

We could always suit up and do a stealth raid on NCSoft HQ and get into the servers and backup storage rooms and obtain  all the CoH data.

It's entirely possible that's been happening since before the shutdown but the NCSoft HQ is set up like one of those big Arachnos maps and there's no way to turn up the volume to help locate the glowing server.

[Waffles]

It's been awhile since I last chimed in, so allow me to comment on something that stood out to me.

We could always suit up and do a stealth raid on NCSoft HQ and get into the servers and backup storage rooms and obtain  all the CoH data.

1. Send knock out gas through all the vents to disable any and all personnel in the building.
2. Suit up in all black attire with face and gas masks and slip into the building via the roof vents
3. Locate the server backups and obtain any and all backup data of CoH, and for good measure obtain the backup data for Auto Assault, Tabula Rasa and other cancelled NCSoft games.
4. Locate the vaults where any backup discs are stored and obtain them.
5. Leave a note for NCsoft saying "so long and thanks for all the fish!"
6. Return to base
7. Get teh backups restored to servers.
8. Test everything.
9. Celebrate!

https://images.weserv.nl/?url=static.comicvine.com%2Fuploads%2Foriginal%2F11111%2F111118857%2F3330483-michael.jpg

;cough

[Sharde]

What are the possible chances of us ever getting an offline single player version?

Maybe being able to play with the wife over LAN or something.

[Goddangit]

What are the possible chances of us ever getting an offline single player version?

Maybe being able to play with the wife over LAN or something.

I'm not hopeful we'll ever get any cooperation from NC$oft.  I'm thinking the only way anything is ever going to move there is if there is a change in ownership.

I'm continuing to put my faith in SCoRE.

I know I'm just one single person, but NC$oft haven't seen a penny of my money since the shutdown and they never will again.