New efforts!

[Blackout]

They earned no hero points with me either on their choice to shutdown the game.  I thought that was short sighted on their part considering all the hero movies being (re)made.  They've damaged their reputation by taking this action.  That's been stressed quite a bit over the years here too.  And they seem to repeat those mistakes over and over so I gather from reading this thread.

I would have preferred they published a eol schedule years ago just as many OS and business applications do.  With that, we could have avoided this pain by building a replacement while coh was still operational.  Perhaps even built things like toon and player created content transfers.  In the grand scheme of things, an 8 to 10 year run for versions of OS and applications is not that unusual.  Coh did have a good run.  And I really do think NCSoft didn't understand the US and European markets and ended up killing a product that could have had many more years of life.  I still don't believe they understand those markets even today.  But I still believe they know they killed something good.  Too bad that lesson came too late to save Coh from /dev/null

To be fair (or unfair, more likely) not posting EOL schedule's for MMO's and other online reliant games isn't exactly uncommon (http://www.giantbomb.com/discontinued-mmo/3015-3661/)
And those examples are just MMO's, there are plenty of others like Battleforge and the like that have gone down too, with little warning on the part of the publisher, and the developers don't really get much of a fair deal either. What NCsoft did was wrong, and, at least in my mind bad business too; but overall its just yet another symptom of a fairly common and really harmful trend in the gaming industry, I REALLY don't understand why this kind of thing is such a common practice when you consider the amazing potential that an MMO has ultimately.

Oh well :(

[Sugoi]

They earned no hero points with me either on their choice to shutdown the game.  I thought that was short sighted on their part considering all the hero movies being (re)made.

I took a look at Box Office Mojo's info on Marvel's latest film, CA3 - Civil War, which shows that 3/4ths of the total box office figure comes from foreign (i.e., non-USA) nations.  Just under $400 Million in the US, and just under 1.2 Billion elsewhere.

Here's the link to the info:  http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=intl&id=marvel2016.htm

#1 on the foreign income to date was (not surprisingly) China, at around $190.4 Million.  What did surprise me was the #2 foreign income nation, South Korea, at $62.8 Million so far.  Super Heroes must not be popular at all in South Korea, eh NCSoft?

Shoot yourself in the foot very often, NCS?

Still missing all those great mission runs both solo and teamed up over the lifetime of the game.  I've just about given up hope on an offical revival of the game, but a spark of hope will always remain.  And I am also looking forward to whichever 'successor' games make it to activation.

Sincerely,

Sugoi (2004 - 2012)

[Azrael]

That's not really possible, mostly because copyright law has nothing to do with what you're talking about here.

How would you... *SNIP*

So long as consumers continue to accept licensing without any ownership rights in software, and increasingly in media in general, any talk of revising copyright law or any other law to protect consumer rights is irrelevant.  Those laws can't protect consumer rights when consumers willingly give those rights away.

True dat.

Edit : Azraels argument seems to me to be that he paid for a functioning piece of software when he paid for the game the first time - not at all to do with a monthly fee.

'Fair use' - when consumers 'wake up' to 'rental' software and 'stacked' odds weighted in favour of corporation...they'll vote with their wallet.  Consumers can and should(!) negotiate a better deal.

And forums, discussing this with other MMO players is the right place to start.

I'm happy with a functioning 'offline' and 'LAN' limited piece of software.  (I get to still enjoy the game...)

I'm happy that I don't have the right to NC Soft keeping up a 'mass server farm' at their expense indefinitely.  (They get to close the server down with their dignity :P intact.)

And I'm glad someone brought up the idea of the 'coffee cup' example.  I wouldn't put it past corporations to 'sell me a cup' I no longer own.

Because, folks.  If we don't wake up and stay vigilant...that's the way it's going.

I want to be able to have the choice of online or offline.  Not 'bullied' or 'insidiously' cul-de-cornered into intravenous online dependency.

Azrael.

PS. 

But you're not - I understand perfectly what's happened and why - my problem is I think it's a ****** deal - which I've said more than once now...

And for anyone who is left brain weighted.  I was raised by plenty of females and have the right to 'change my mind.'

Ergo.  The 'deal I agreed' to with NC Soft, in retrospect wasn't a good one.  I payed loads of money.  About £1000.  No offline, no LAN functionality.  No BASIC functionality with a micro server.

So yeah, it's no personal, it's corporate, right? :P

Unreal Tourney.  Pre: year 2000.  I can still play a single player campaign.  Offline.  And I can still play LAN with other players.

Perhaps corporations 20 years later should take another look at this business model. 

That way, they make money on the box.  They make money on the 'rental' (I'd rather say subscription, heckles rise*) and we 'mere' consumers still get 'something' after they shut the servers down.

What?  Us poor consumers actually have rights?  An opinion?  A wallet?  Voting rights?  To 'own' a product?  Something tangible?

Legacy?

...mere crumb?

...

[Arcana]

I took a look at Box Office Mojo's info on Marvel's latest film, CA3 - Civil War, which shows that 3/4ths of the total box office figure comes from foreign (i.e., non-USA) nations.  Just under $400 Million in the US, and just under 1.2 Billion elsewhere.

The 1.2 billion is the total, not the total overseas.  Civil War's current estimated take is about $397 million domestic (US) and $746 million non-US for a total of $1.14 billion.  That's a split of about 35% domestic and 65% foreign box office.

Very loosely, and it varies by distribution contracts, you can guestimate that the studio's take is about 50% of the US box office and 40% of the foreign (there are usually extra intermediaries and other contractual differences on overseas releases).  So in terms of profiability, about 40% of the profits come from US box office receipts and about 60% from foreign.

#1 on the foreign income to date was (not surprisingly) China, at around $190.4 Million.  What did surprise me was the #2 foreign income nation, South Korea, at $62.8 Million so far.  Super Heroes must not be popular at all in South Korea, eh NCSoft?

Shoot yourself in the foot very often, NCS?

I think I'm on solid ground when I say that the box office revenue for Captain America Civil War has exactly zero bearing on how much money a superhero themed MMO might expect to make.  First because Civil War is not just any old super hero movie, and second because gameplay has a much larger impact.  They actually tried to launch City of Heroes in South Korea and it failed miserably, because City of Heroes as a game was something that did not appeal to South Korean MMO tastes at the time.  I don't think it is likely that has changed much in the intervening time.

[Arcana]

I'm happy with a functioning 'offline' and 'LAN' limited piece of software.  (I get to still enjoy the game...)

I'm happy that I don't have the right to NC Soft keeping up a 'mass server farm' at their expense indefinitely.  (They get to close the server down with their dignity :P intact.)

The grey area here is that it costs money to make offline modes to games, and you seem to believe there's a moral imperative for corporations to spend that money on a feature they do not want to sell and would otherwise interfere with the thing they actually want to sell, just to use as a contingency for when they decide to stop selling it.  How do you compel them to do that?

And I'm glad someone brought up the idea of the 'coffee cup' example.  I wouldn't put it past corporations to 'sell me a cup' I no longer own.

Did I miss something?

[Arcana]

That's great that you can see how it's like leasing, really it is...

Analogies are great if you're trying to explain something to someone.

But you're not - I understand perfectly what's happened and why - my problem is I think it's a ****** deal - which I've said more than once now...

Whatever you believe your comprehension of the situation is, it is still valid for someone else to have a point of view worth explaining.

[Taceus Jiwede]

True dat.

'Fair use' - when consumers 'wake up' to 'rental' software and 'stacked' odds weighted in favour of corporation...they'll vote with their wallet.  Consumers can and should(!) negotiate a better deal.

And forums, discussing this with other MMO players is the right place to start.

I'm happy with a functioning 'offline' and 'LAN' limited piece of software.  (I get to still enjoy the game...)

I'm happy that I don't have the right to NC Soft keeping up a 'mass server farm' at their expense indefinitely.  (They get to close the server down with their dignity :P intact.)

And I'm glad someone brought up the idea of the 'coffee cup' example.  I wouldn't put it past corporations to 'sell me a cup' I no longer own.

Because, folks.  If we don't wake up and stay vigilant...that's the way it's going.

I want to be able to have the choice of online or offline.  Not 'bullied' or 'insidiously' cul-de-cornered into intravenous online dependency.

Azrael.

PS. 
And for anyone who is left brain weighted.  I was raised by plenty of females and have the right to 'change my mind.'

Ergo.  The 'deal I agreed' to with NC Soft, in retrospect wasn't a good one.  I payed loads of money.  About £1000.  No offline, no LAN functionality.  No BASIC functionality with a micro server.

So yeah, it's no personal, it's corporate, right? :P

Unreal Tourney.  Pre: year 2000.  I can still play a single player campaign.  Offline.  And I can still play LAN with other players....

Just cutting this short.  I do understand where you are coming from especially with  the Unreal tourny reference.  I could still pop in the first Super Mario game ever and play it if I wanted to.  But that $1000 you spent in CoH was all accounted for and you already received your return on it.  All of that money you invested was maintenance and rental fees on top of money for new content and on going game support.  If NCSoft did provide a copy of a game that you paid money for at the start, it would just be an offline version of pre issue 1 with none of the changes that really helped the game in place.

I would love an offline version of CoH.  But I don't think the money we have already invested entitles us to that because that isn't what the money we invested already covered nor was it what we were investing in.

While I also think consumers can and should vote with their wallet, I really don't consider NCSof to be the devil like so many others do on this forum.  I paid them for an entertainment product and I got it, and when they decided they didn't want to work on it anymore so they stopped.  Sure I am not happy about that but NCSoft isn't evil for deciding to do that.  The only thing they are being childish about is not selling the game, which I don't know enough about the business world at that level to really know if it comes from a place of pettiness or business.

I don't say any of this because I don't want the game back.  I just really don't believe we are entitled to an offline version of the game from NCSoft, I think MMO's are too different of a genre to really compare to other games sense they require such a large amount of maintenance and employees.

[LateNights]

Whatever you believe your comprehension of the situation is, it is still valid for someone else to have a point of view worth explaining.

Holy irony Batman...

[Arcana]

Holy irony Batman...

One of us said this:

Did you really just compare a video game to owning a home?

In the same post they said this:

That's like Jesus Christ returning tomorrow just to be crucified all over again...

Then decided to say this:

Analogies are great if you're trying to explain something to someone.

But you're not

So, yeah: ironic.

[Azrael]

Just cutting this short.  *Snip.*  Sure.  Why not?


I would love an offline version of CoH. 

Sure, me too. 

But it will 'never' happen?  Right?

Why?  Some consumers have stockholm syndrome with corporations.

Now, if only consumers would stop apologising for a corporations one sided business model.  Especially Naughty Childish Software houses.  Who are probably wondering why their properties don't get any traction when they keep taking the axe to communities.

"Well, I don't know, T.C..."

Azrael.

PS. 

The grey area here is that it costs money to make offline modes to games, and you seem to believe there's a moral imperative for corporations to spend that money on a feature they do not want to sell and would otherwise interfere with the thing they actually want to sell, just to use as a contingency for when they decide to stop selling it.  How do you compel them to do that?

You can justify any business model under the banner of greed.

Corporations and moral imperative?  No.  But a bit of bruising legislation to mandate that MMOs offer the community a 'running costs' server for as long as the community can cover those costs.  An offline mode.  LAN.  In the case of shutdown.  Mediation.  Marriage counselling.  'Fair use' agreement for reverse engineering games as 'historic artefacts' and 'scientific research' purposes.  As long as the community don't exploit the IP for their own profit.  It's 'private use.'  Educational.  It's zombie mode.  It's legacy.  it's a goddamn 20 year old game if you include the R & R on it.  The 'why don't we just get along' clause between consumer and corporations-my ball, my, my, my...etc.

No seem about it.  I do believe us consumers have a moral imperative to push for 'coffee cup' rights. 

How do you compel corporations to do anything, Arcana?

If you don't like their 'toilet' business model.  Boycott them and shop elsewhere.  Don't buy their coffee. :P

Don't buy their product.  Don't buy rental software.  Buy other stuff that you can own.  Make your own stuff.  Pressure them on social media.  Get your typewriter out and start a letter writing campaign.  Don't buy their 'rented' coffee cup.  Take up up a different hobby.  Make some stuff with your hands...  Support a start up MMO that will (!) include an offline mode with LAN capability in the event of shutdown.

Games companies used to budget for having physical copies of their games.  The digital copies now cost as much.  Notice the sleight of hand?

You used to be able to play games 'offline' but now there is the intravenous only model creeping in. 

'Budget' for an offline line.  Sorry.  Laughable.  Offline has been a standard model for games for most of their history.  Epic did it 20 years ago with Unreal Tourney.  And Lan.  This isn't cutting edge innovation or such a burden to have a solo campaign, a LAN/peer to peer capability.  Games now have more options than ever.  To edge out options for rental software is only to put the consumer under boot.  Nothing more.  You don't own anything.  You have no rights.  etc. etc.  Agreements are on our terms (see realms of small print...that defies the plain english campaign...)

You don't have to sit down with the devil.  And if you do.  Make sure you have long silver spoons.

Nobody compelled me to sit down and pay for CoH subs on pain of death.  However, upon cold reflection of spending £1000 to be kicked to the curb, I've decided to author a new agreement.

Said treatment will not get another dime from me.

And any successor projects of the 'spiritual' kind better have a 'safety net' feature or they won't get a dime either.

So, yeah: ironic.

So, yeah.  Ironic that I spent all that money and I don't actually own the game or play it.  But I've got 3 hard copies of the box and a client that is in stasis.  The 'have my cake and eat it' business model.

(Caveat being, client can now DO somethings thanks to that Diamond Geezer, Codewalker and Team.)

PPPPS.

I just really do believe we are entitled to an offline version of the game from NCSoft,

"Attitude is a little thing that makes a big difference."

[Sugoi]

The 1.2 billion is the total, not the total overseas.  Civil War's current estimated take is about $397 million domestic (US) and $746 million non-US for a total of $1.14 billion.  That's a split of about 35% domestic and 65% foreign box office.

I think I'm on solid ground when I say that the box office revenue for Captain America Civil War has exactly zero bearing on how much money a superhero themed MMO might expect to make.  First because Civil War is not just any old super hero movie, and second because gameplay has a much larger impact.  They actually tried to launch City of Heroes in South Korea and it failed miserably, because City of Heroes as a game was something that did not appeal to South Korean MMO tastes at the time.  I don't think it is likely that has changed much in the intervening time.

My boo-boo on the total figures, I should have caught that.  I remember the 'City of Hero' fiasco (even got hold of the character maker routine for it when it first came out). And knowing how they rejected the game was the cause of my surprise at the movie's box office take in South Korea.

Oh well, theoretically there's an infinite group of realities where CoH is still running, unfortunately the reality we know isn't included in that group.

And speaking of theoretical realities, I want to talk to the Dev Team in charge of this reality's programming, because most of my life I've thought their priorities really sucked.   :P

[Azrael]

As for not capitalising on the current 'boom' in Superhero movies.

Maybe MMO makers of the superhero kind need to look at their business models.  Some get it right and fail.  Why was that?  (I don't think CoH's failure was just down to NC Soft, by the way...  Navel gazing while Rome burns...)  Why was Champions such a smash hit.  :P

Why is DC online such a 'great' MMO?

Mind you, should MMOs capitalise on Superhero movies when DC and Marvel can't even get their comic sales out of historic low levels?

CoH was the best of them by a mile.  Better design.  Part accident part lightning in a bottle part part design intention.  If life was fair it would still be here.  And who knows.  One day, the hands of the righteous will re-incarnate it.

Grow some imaginations.  Think different.  Become more community minded (ironic considering MMOs are 'community' based...) rather than stacked corporate models trying to fleece communities of rights and their monies in the process.

If 800k players are on a 'non official' server, look in the mirror and ask why is that?  How do you positively harness that?  With a cease and desist?

Azrael.

[Arcana]

You can justify any business model under the banner of greed.

Corporations and moral imperative?  No.  But a bit of bruising legislation to mandate that MMOs offer the community a 'running costs' server for as long as the community can cover those costs.  An offline mode.  LAN.  In the case of shutdown.  Mediation.  Marriage counselling.  'Fair use' agreement for reverse engineering games as 'historic artefacts' and 'scientific research' purposes.  As long as the community don't exploit the IP for their own profit.  It's 'private use.'  Educational.  It's zombie mode.  It's legacy.  it's a goddamn 20 year old game if you include the R & R on it.  The 'why don't we just get along' clause between consumer and corporations-my ball, my, my, my...etc.

No seem about it.  I do believe us consumers have a moral imperative to push for 'coffee cup' rights. 

How do you compel corporations to do anything, Arcana?

If you don't like their 'toilet' business model.  Boycott them and shop elsewhere.  Don't buy their coffee. :P

Don't buy their product.  Don't buy rental software.  Buy other stuff that you can own.  Make your own stuff.  Pressure them on social media.  Get your typewriter out and start a letter writing campaign.  Don't buy their 'rented' coffee cup.  Take up up a different hobby.  Make some stuff with your hands...  Support a start up MMO that will (!) include an offline mode with LAN capability in the event of shutdown.

I'm more of a believer that this is something that has to be supported by the will of the consumers rather than the legal system.  I'm not particularly fond of the idea of compelling companies to make products in specific ways for reasons other than safety or liability.

There's two different issues here that the law treats differently.  Take the specific case of City of Heroes (because the details can be different in other games).  For us to have a game we can play again requires two distinct things.  First, we need servers capable of talking to the game clients.  Hypothetically speaking, we could reverse engineer the servers to reproduce their functionality.  Technically that does not run afoul of copyright law.  There might be DMCA issues in the US, but I would have no problem stating opposition to those provisions of the law (meaning: I would be in favor of having them modified or repealed, not saying I feel I can reasonably ignore them).  Allowing reverse engineering of functionality doesn't compromise the spirit of intellectual property protection in my opinion.  In fact, patent law expicitly states that you can only patent inventions and not ideas.  In other words, you can patent a hammer, but not all hammers or the idea of hammering.  The spirit of both patent (invention) protection and copyright (creative expression) protection is to protect NCSoft's effort in creating their specific implementation of an MMO server, not all possible MMO servers with the same functionality.  So if you are advocating refactoring the law to make that legal in all respects, sign me up: I'm all for that.

But that would get us a functional game system.  City of Heroes itself would require us to recreate the content of the game, as in the Positron Task Force, the Fire Blast powerset, the appearance of Emperor Cole.  That's where we run afoul of the core protections of copyright.  The creators of the game, which for our purposes here is NCSoft, have the legal right to say what happens to that content, including saying they don't want anyone to use it for any reason.  I am not comfortable with saying that because we "need" that content that we should be allowed to simply take it, or copy it.  What's to stop that line of thinking at MMO server data?  Why can't we just photocopy D&D rule books because we need them, or copy DVDs of movies because we need them.  The notion that the writing and drawing and music composition is something we get to simply take just because it was used within a game is something I'm not on board with.

In actual implementation, City of Heroes (the software) intertwines the code and data of the game so that there are complex technicalities to making the game client work with any particular server implementation that aren't important to discuss here.  But that doesn't alter the fact that in my mind there's a difference between allowing people to make something that works with something they already bought to make it work better (and I'm setting aside the fact the game client is technically licensed and not bought here), and allowing people to copy someone else's work.  At its root, there's two reasons why I make that distinction.  First, I think it is inherently fair.  Second, the justification for intellectual property protection in the first place is based on the notion that such protections ultimately benefit the common good.  Inventions should spur other inventions.  We protect inventions to encourage people to invent.  We protect creative expressions because we want people to express.  So for me, allowing people to make their own original creations that work with existing ones is entirely consistent with why we protect creators, but blatant copying even supposedly "for the common good" is not.

[Arcana]

I remember the 'City of Hero' fiasco (even got hold of the character maker routine for it when it first came out). And knowing how they rejected the game was the cause of my surprise at the movie's box office take in South Korea.

Perhaps it is just too obvious to be noticed, but if you stop to think about it should we be surprised that a movie whose central theme is a civil war and whose putative good guys are on the side of freedom over authoritarianism might play well in South Korea?

[LateNights]

One of us said this:

In the same post they said this:

Then decided to say this:

So, yeah: ironic.

Exactly.

[Taceus Jiwede]

Sure, me too. 

But it will 'never' happen?  Right?

Why?  Some consumers have stockholm syndrome with corporations.

Now, if only consumers would stop apologising for a corporations one sided business model.  Especially Naughty Childish Software houses.  Who are probably wondering why their properties don't get any traction when they keep taking the axe to communities.

"Well, I don't know, T.C..."

Azrael.

I am not apologizing for anything.  I just don't claim to have a stake of ownership in something I don't.  Therefore I don't expect to be able to make demands of those people or at least none that I expect to be taken seriously.  I also don't wonder why we aren't gaining traction.  It's because NCSoft won't sell the game, and no amount of bad mouthing or boycotting will change that.  NCSoft may have wronged you in your eyes.  But most of their playerbase doesn't feel that they have been wronged by NCSoft so why in those peoples minds should they stop supporting them? 

When NCSoft closed all of those games but CoH was still open I didn't think to my self "Wow I should really stop supporting this company" and then uninstall CoH and quit playing and I have a feeling you didn't either.  Because at that point my game was still around and NCSoft had done no wrong by me which is probably how the overwhelming majority of their playerbase currently feels.

I don't feel wronged by NCSoft because I know it wasn't personal.  I have no idea what it takes to run a business that size but I know its not easy.  There a lot of moving cogs in an always changing market, and while I am sure a very small percentage of people at NCSoft are the big bad corporate wolves people like to imagine, the overwhelming majority are just people like you and me simply trying to get by. 

And those big wigs that make these decisions, make them based on marketing trends.  In other words they make them based off what people have already 'voted'  for when they opened their wallets and they aren't interested in a small percentage of people on a forum somewhere, because they only care about what the overwhelming majority wants.  Which apparently is Call of Duty, WoW clones, Assassin Creeds, and Moba's.  So if you ask me the problem with gaming is that it started being based of "voting with your wallet" because now games are only made to be as profitable as possible and if it isn't the most profitable template then it has no room in the gaming community.

Your system of voting already happened, and we lost.  Because apparently the world wants more craptacular games and continues to buy them.  Maybe they should go back to making games for certain types of gamer's and subcultures instead.

[Twisted Toon]

Your system of voting already happened, and we lost.  Because apparently the world wants more craptacular games and continues to buy them.  Maybe they should go back to making games for certain types of gamer's and subcultures instead.

I somewhat agree with this. I believe that the majority of gamers in the world have become accustomed to playing the new shiny for a few months or maybe even years, then go off to find the next new shiny. So, game companies are geared to make shoddy game with a shiny exterior after shoddy game with a shiny exterior. I will admit that I tried Elder Scrolls Online. It didn't feel like an Elder Scrolls game to me. Even Skyrim was falling a little short of the Elder Scrolls feel for me. I find that I like to dust off my old copy of Master of Magic and play it on occasion. And X-Com (the original), Morrowind (Elder Scrolls 3), I'd play Dagger Fall (Elder Scrolls 2) but I can't seem to get it to install correctly for some reason. I even like Star Control 1 & 2.

I kind of see a trend here in my gaming likes.

CoH is really the only more modern game that I really enjoyed playing. I play STO occasionally, and really only play SWTOR with my friends on the weekends. Haven't played TSW in over a year.

we now return you to your regularly scheduled whatever.

[Groundbreaker]

I pay a subscription to Netflix so I can watch lots of shows. They don't offer the same catalogue as Crunchyroll, or Amazon Prime, but I choose to stick with Netflix because it works for me.

If Netflix died tomorrow I would probably switch to a different streaming service but it wouldn't be completely the same. Let's say for argument I love Netflix so much that I just can't get any enjoyment from what is offered by those other services. That still doesn't mean I have any right to have all of that content from Netflix back just because I paid a subscription for X amount of time, no matter how much that subscription amounted to.

[LateNights]

I pay a subscription to Netflix so I can watch lots of shows. They don't offer the same catalogue as Crunchyroll, or Amazon Prime, but I choose to stick with Netflix because it works for me.

If Netflix died tomorrow I would probably switch to a different streaming service but it wouldn't be completely the same. Let's say for argument I love Netflix so much that I just can't get any enjoyment from what is offered by those other services. That still doesn't mean I have any right to have all of that content from Netflix back just because I paid a subscription for X amount of time, no matter how much that subscription amounted to.

Sure, but that wouldn't stop you from recording the shows and watching them...

You wouldn't own the shows - but you'd still have a reasonable ability to watch them.

Other games have made similar offline modes available, that's all we're saying, it would have been nice for NC to have been that considerate - hindsight is wonderful ain't it - that way we could resonably continue to enjoy the game much like you could a show you'd recorded.

Unless you think Netflix has the right to demand you delete any content you've recorded that they own the rights to?

You make it sound like we're asking for the wheel to be reinvented, when all we really want is a legal way to enjoy a game that a large company can't be bothered with anymore.

Really, God forbid someone might make a nice gesture or go above and beyond expectations.

Perhaps you might remind me what this thread started out as?

[slickriptide]

Other games have made similar offline modes available, that's all we're saying, it would have been nice for NC to have been that considerate

Which games?

I challenge you to name a single MMORPG that had an "offline mode".

The kind of games you're talking about are not online games that had an offline mode. They're offline games that had an online mode. The original Neverwinter Nights was a single player game that added peer-to-peer multi-player and mods. You'd have a tough sell if you went to Cryptic and demanded that they give you an "offline" version of Neverwinter Online just in case they ever cease operations, just because the original Neverwinter Nights was an "offline" game. Blizzard would laugh at you if you told them that Warcraft was an "offline" game and World of Warcraft ought to have an "offline" version as well.

When you buy into a "persistent virtual world" game, you know in advance that you are buying into something that is only "persistent" for as long as the servers are turned on. There is no obligation for the publishers to provide a customer with a world in perpetuity.

A subscription game is a service. There's no qualitative difference between saying, "OMG! You're terminating the service? You owe me a version I can play offline!" and saying, "I don't feel like paying for a subscription any more. I've paid enough into the service that you owe me a version that I can play offline without paying you." Either way, what you want is to treat a service like it's a discrete product.

There's no offline mode because a MMORPG "server" is not some script interpreter running as a single process on a single computer, like Neverwinter Nights or Warcraft. It's an architecture and an infrastructure designed to serve thousands or millions of people all at the same time. Your theoretical "offline mode" would be an entirely separate, second implementation of the exact same content, at great cost in time, money, and maintenance to the publisher and ZERO benefit to the publisher.

EA and Maxis found that out the hard way. The people at Maxis who had no experience making a MMORPG (but who should have known better) thought they'd just add some network code to the existing Sims game engine and, Voila! A Sims MMO!

Yeah, that didn't work out so well in the long run. A single-player game and a massively multiplayer game are two different beasts, no matter what the outward similarities.

If you don't like how subscription, persistent world games are dependent upon some external service provider willing and able to host the service, then don't subscribe to such a game. Play Fallout or Neverwinter Nights or something instead.

As long as you got $15 worth of entertainment in a month, you got your money's worth. That's all you're entitled to. If you buy digital goods, and you lose them when the server closes, them's the breaks. You knew what you were signing up for when you made the purchase. When City of Heroes closed, I "lost" all of those special content packs I'd purchased. When Free Realms closed, I "lost" the varioius in-game doo-dads I'd purchased, and I lost the substantial CCG collection I'd built up. That's life. SOE didn't owe me printed cardboard versions of my digital CCG cards just because they shut down the server, and Cryptic isn't going to owe any customer an "offline" version of Neverwinter if Perfect World decides to shut down the servers tomorrow.

When you pay the fee, you know going in that you're paying for something that has a limited shelf life. If you don't like that, spend your money on something that doesn't have a limited shelf life. Don't buy digital goods and services.