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Started by Ironwolf, March 06, 2014, 03:01:32 PM

FloatingFatMan

Quote from: Arcana on April 09, 2015, 07:01:59 AM
Technically, at that point most players would be grumbling that the items in question were contained in a useless null wrapper, and thus the devs must be morons ("... and thus the devs must be morons" is usually implied, but I'm just adding for completeness).

Hey! I resemble that remark! :p

Cailyn Alaynn

Quote from: Arcana on April 09, 2015, 07:01:59 AM
Technically, at that point most players would be grumbling that the items in question were contained in a useless null wrapper, and thus the devs must be morons ("... and thus the devs must be morons" is usually implied, but I'm just adding for completeness).

Players are never happy! /sarcasm
:P
"Let's get dangerous..."
Lead Developer and Master of Mischief - Revival Project.
Revival website: APR.Pc-Logix.com

Stealth Dart

Quote from: Arcana on April 09, 2015, 07:03:39 AM
I'm in the middle of being rebooted into a darker, grittier version of myself with a gravelier voice.

https://youtu.be/vbgLapRAloQ
I am a dancer, a leaf in the wind...a leaf that can kick your Butt!

Joshex

#16283
Quote from: silvers1 on April 08, 2015, 11:30:39 PM
This statement gives me pause ... 
I've seen the profit scheme in games like Neverwinter, and it makes me want to upchuck.  If we end up with a game that forces you to spend
additional money just to slot out your heroes, or tries to force lockboxes down your throat - I will look elsewhere.  As much as I love CoH, that would be a deal breaker for me.  I hate PAY2WIN schemes, and that seems to be what so-called free2play MMOs are increasingly moving towards.

I think CoX's free to play model would have worked if they did it from the start, the problem is they did it too late, so all the good costume pieces ETC. were already freely acquirable or purchasable with content sets for the entire account.

Now is the perfect time to restructure the game so only basic costume stuff from each category is free, then make per character costume piece store items 20 points each ($0.02) and costume sets for 200 points ($0.20) one buy can equip one character with it, if you want to buy 1 set for 20 toons then it's $4 worth of points. maybe that's a bit cheap of a profit model but it definitely keeps the money flowing in every time someone makes a new toon.

they are probably restructuring the paragon points tier thing too.

I'm sure there will never be lockboxes so cool your rocket boots or save your jetpack for later.

as for Sets and such, the sets will still be obtainable in game I'm sure, the store has them available for speed. there will never be a mandatory buy to slot system, but it may make things faster or easier. For example you may not know this but enhancement combination and boosters do actually have a failure margin, they just made it so low that most of the time it succeeded rather than failed. NCsoft may demand the failure margin be increased.


I don't know any of this for certain, I'm just guessing based off what CoX's free to play model used to be like and how the industry has changed since then.
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

WildFire15

Quote from: Joshex on April 09, 2015, 04:27:57 PM
I think CoX's free to play model would have worked if they did it from the start, the problem is they did it too late, so all the good costume pieces ETC. were already freely acquirable or purchasable with content sets for the entire account.

Now is the perfect time to restructure the game so only basic costume stuff from each category is free, then make per character costume piece store items 20 points each ($0.02) and costume sets for 200 points ($0.20) one buy can equip one character with it, if you want to buy all the sets for 20 toons then it's $4 worth of points. maybe that's a bit cheap of a profit model but it definitely keeps the money flowing in every time someone makes a new toon.

they are probably restructuring the paragon points tier thing too.

I'm sure there will never be lockboxes so cool your rocket boots or save your jetpack for later.

as for Sets and such, the sets will still be obtainable in game I'm sure, the store has them available for speed. there will never be a mandatory buy to slot system, but it may make things faster or easier. For example you may not know this but enhancement combination and boosters do actually have a failure margin, they just made it so low that most of the time it succeeded rather than failed. NCsoft may demand the failure margin be increased.


I don't know any of this for certain, I'm just guessing based off what CoX's free to play model used to be like and how the industry has changed since then.

I thought the Paragon Store was fine as it was, certainly a lot better then modern MMO stores.

MWRuger

Quote from: Joshex on April 09, 2015, 04:27:57 PM
I think CoX's free to play model would have worked if they did it from the start, the problem is they did it too late, so all the good costume pieces ETC. were already freely acquirable or purchasable with content sets for the entire account.


My understanding is that it DID work. CoH was more profitable, just not profitable enough.
AKA TheDevilYouKnow
Return of CoH - Oh My God! It looks like it can happen!

ivanhedgehog

Quote from: TheDevilYouKnow on April 09, 2015, 05:53:01 PM
My understanding is that it DID work. CoH was more profitable, just not profitable enough.

what i understood was that COH was profitable, the studio was supporting 2 other projects and was not profitable.

Joshex

Quote from: WildFire15 on April 09, 2015, 05:48:04 PM
I thought the Paragon Store was fine as it was, certainly a lot better then modern MMO stores.

that it may be, but NCSoft may not have seen it that way.

Quote from: TheDevilYouKnow on April 09, 2015, 05:53:01 PM
My understanding is that it DID work. CoH was more profitable, just not profitable enough.


Exactly: it can always be done better, no exceptions.

Quote from: ivanhedgehog on April 09, 2015, 06:22:11 PM
what i understood was that COH was profitable, the studio was supporting 2 other projects and was not profitable.

CoH was profitable but it's profit margins were low compared to the gear grinder magic battle weapon MMOs.
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

FloatingFatMan

Quote from: Joshex on April 09, 2015, 06:48:17 PM
CoH was profitable but it's profit margins were low compared to the gear grinder magic battle weapon MMOs.

You have no grounds for that claim. We do not know -how- profitable it was, just that it was.

If you do have grounds, kindly prove it.

Dev7on

Happy 11th Anniversary to City of Heroes guys!  ;D  Did you forgot about that?

Twisted Toon

Quote from: Stealth Dart on April 09, 2015, 07:59:59 AM
https://youtu.be/vbgLapRAloQ
I'm sure that Arcana's plot points actually make sense.


But then...She IS a fan of CoH. So...  :o
Hope never abandons you, you abandon it. - George Weinberg

Hope ... is not a feeling; it is something you do. - Katherine Paterson

Nobody really cares if you're miserable, so you might as well be happy. - Cynthia Nelms

Arcana

Quote from: Twisted Toon on April 09, 2015, 07:31:47 PM
I'm sure that Arcana's plot points actually make sense.


But then...She IS a fan of CoH. So...  :o

https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2730/4335787716_a95aa48991_o.png

Burnt Toast


You're a couple weeks early ;)



Quote from: Dev7on on April 09, 2015, 07:29:34 PM
Happy 11th Anniversary to City of Heroes guys!  ;D  Did you forgot about that?

Joshex

Quote from: FloatingFatMan on April 09, 2015, 06:54:07 PM
You have no grounds for that claim. We do not know -how- profitable it was, just that it was.

If you do have grounds, kindly prove it.

I'm just going off what other reputable people here have said.
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

Joshex

in specific, it was financial data, at closing time there were 60k players, if all of them were paying VIPs that means they were paying at least 9.99 a month. for a year that comes to just over 7 million.

lets see what was the max VIP subscription again? $15? that comes to $10,800,000 for a year

I believe someone here said CoX was making 12 mil a year, in contrast the magic weapon super gear grinders were making hundred millions.

yeah they may be making shitake mushrooms now but.. not back then. the whole grinder fan base + asia assured that.
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

Arcana

Quote from: Joshex on April 09, 2015, 08:08:41 PM
I'm just going off what other reputable people here have said.

Two data points make me quite certain City of Heroes wasn't very profitable in absolute terms relative to some other NCSoft titles: what I've heard about the revenue stream for CoH, and NCSoft's own financial reporting.  However I don't think anyone that has posted to these forums can state with any authority what CoH's profit margins were relative to other titles, because not even a Paragon insider would have direct knowledge of what the profit margins were in other NCSoft titles.  We know not all of them were great, since CoH isn't the only game that's gone bye-bye.  We don't know about the rest.  Its entirely possible NCSoft saw 10% of a million dollars being far better than 15% of a hundred thousand dollars (which it is).

If City of Heroes was a completely independent stand alone business I would have been happy to own it.  I'm sure it was not just profitable in isolation, but profitable enough that I could retire on that revenue stream (even if it didn't last forever).  But the truth is that the entire company I currently work for (and partially own) could easily be seen as an unworthy subdivision of a company as large as NCSoft and get shutdown, and I make a six-figure salary (and I'm not the only one).  Its all still a roundoff error to a company like NCSoft.

A large security firm purchased a local consulting company a while back for a substantial amount of money (millions).  They then told them to essentially unwind and eliminate 90+% of the company's business (and essentially personnel) even though that represented almost the entirety of the money that company made.  Why?  Because they bought the company for the other 10%, which did some R&D they were interested in, that at the time made very little revenue but was strategically important to the acquiring company.  But why destroy a significant revenue stream; why lose what was essentially free money?  Because that revenue was still tiny compared to the acquiring company, free or not, and they probably figured it was a distraction they didn't need.

Sound vaguely familiar?  Companies walk away from revenue all the time, when that revenue isn't seen as strategically significant.  The reason I tend to scoff at people who describe how they "know" how companies work is that in my experience the single biggest driver of when and why companies are started, acquired, sold, and shutdown is politics and strategic planning.  Money is a distant second.  Everything else is a footnote.

Arcana

Quote from: Joshex on April 09, 2015, 08:17:34 PM
in specific, it was financial data, at closing time there were 60k players, if all of them were paying VIPs that means they were paying at least 9.99 a month. for a year that comes to just over 7 million.

lets see what was the max VIP subscription again? $15? that comes to $10,800,000 for a year

I believe someone here said CoX was making 12 mil a year, in contrast the magic weapon super gear grinders were making hundred millions.

yeah they may be making shitake mushrooms now but.. not back then. the whole grinder fan base + asia assured that.

The complete range of what I consider to be at least reasonably credible estimates place CoH gross revenue between seven million and fourteen million annually.  My own conservative estimate is on the low end of that range: 8-10 million gross.  At that level of revenue, if the game wasn't profitable it was Paragon and NCSoft's own fault: based on the calculations I made at the time of the shutdown the infrastructure costs to keep the game running at that level of player activity should have been somewhere around $150,000 a month (~2 million annually).  4 million a year could keep 30 very well compensated developers and support staff working full time on the game, leaving 2 million annually for my yacht and jet fuel expenses.

MM3squints

Quote from: Arcana on April 09, 2015, 08:33:39 PM
The complete range of what I consider to be at least reasonably credible estimates place CoH gross revenue between seven million and fourteen million annually.  My own conservative estimate is on the low end of that range: 8-10 million gross.  At that level of revenue, if the game wasn't profitable it was Paragon and NCSoft's own fault: based on the calculations I made at the time of the shutdown the infrastructure costs to keep the game running at that level of player activity should have been somewhere around $150,000 a month (~2 million annually).  4 million a year could keep 30 very well compensated developers and support staff working full time on the game, leaving 2 million annually for my yacht and jet fuel expenses.

So basically any avg Joe would be happy with this:

https://images.weserv.nl/?url=cdn.totalfratmove.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F03%2Fac5c8212046ad2ae12abd612b76ec836826591236.png

But NC Soft wanted one of these:

https://images.weserv.nl/?url=static5.therichestimages.com%2Fcdn%2F864%2F455%2F90%2Fcw%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F08%2FStreets-of-Monaco1.jpg

Joshex

Quote from: Arcana on April 09, 2015, 08:33:39 PM
The complete range of what I consider to be at least reasonably credible estimates place CoH gross revenue between seven million and fourteen million annually.  My own conservative estimate is on the low end of that range: 8-10 million gross.  At that level of revenue, if the game wasn't profitable it was Paragon and NCSoft's own fault: based on the calculations I made at the time of the shutdown the infrastructure costs to keep the game running at that level of player activity should have been somewhere around $150,000 a month (~2 million annually).  4 million a year could keep 30 very well compensated developers and support staff working full time on the game, leaving 2 million annually for my yacht and jet fuel expenses.

you forgot the lawyers.. and then suddenly 14 million is a liability. It's kinda the reason big companies keep getting more money hungry;

"liability" because somewhere there is a judge who got through law school based entirely off his rich parents paying off professors, who wont dismiss a case brought forward by "jimmy fergot how ta spel mah last naym, hop tats uhk?" whose Cat has apparently been playing city of heroes without his approval using his credit card, and the computer caught fire and burned his 32 year old child alive in the neighboring room and it's cost him money which is the grounds he is suing for damages on.

or because billy, poor dumb billy, believes that the developers specifically based statesman's looks on him and wants money for likeness rights.

I've seen some real dumb cases get attention and awards they never should have, like that lady who microwaved her cat and sued the microwave company for not stating in the instruction book that it was not safe to put pets inside it and turn it on. She won 3 million if I remember correctly. though it said warning not to put your hand in while it's running it didn't specifically say anything about pets, that was the ruling.

well gee, I'm sorry guys, NCSoft? yeah... you know guildwars? well it kinda made me spill my coffee on my alien buddy from the kxzvlaar galaxy and he melted, oh and he was an ambassador and if you don't ante up there will be war, there's a star destroyer positioned in the sun now awaiting the results...



EDIT: Companies plan ahead for these instances. so they pay a sizable group of lawyers a steady multimillion dollar paycheck each to be on-duty/call 24/7 just in case.
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

Arcana

Quote from: MM3squints on April 09, 2015, 08:46:55 PM
So basically any avg Joe would be happy with this:

https://images.weserv.nl/?url=cdn.totalfratmove.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F03%2Fac5c8212046ad2ae12abd612b76ec836826591236.png

But NC Soft wanted one of these:

https://images.weserv.nl/?url=static5.therichestimages.com%2Fcdn%2F864%2F455%2F90%2Fcw%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F08%2FStreets-of-Monaco1.jpg

Pretty sure they wouldn't have settled for anything less than one of these:

https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.wired.com%2Fimages_blogs%2Fwiredscience%2F2013%2F10%2Fcaptain_america_2_the_winter_soldier_trailer_2014_movie_official_hd_undefinedmp_4_2.jpg