Author Topic: New efforts!  (Read 7292940 times)

AmberOfDzu

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13420 on: November 28, 2014, 11:21:53 PM »
Yes of course! :)  I certainly enjoyed the I trails.  And not being totally unforgiving isn't a bad thing.  It eases up and allows you to enjoy with a wider audience of people.  It was nice to be able to do Itrails with just about anybody.

That was another part of the friendliness of CoH; you could pick your difficulty and up/down it at need in normal non-i content. And even in the i-content in Dark Astoria later on. I had a couple of character's I'd built strongly and I could up difficulty there just for soloing. But we didn't have to. I had characters made mainly for group synergy I used to run at -1 difficulty on when I was alone. ^_^

BraveStar

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13421 on: November 29, 2014, 05:15:47 AM »
After all of this, if they are able to get it back for us, I'll bet the community is even more friendly and close-knit.

Noyjitat

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13422 on: November 29, 2014, 06:00:57 AM »
Boxing wasn't totally useless.
It would've been nice to do the same with kicking, but there wasn't a knockback purple set.
Speaking of which, might I suggest....

The proc of a knockback set would be Jackie Gleason himself spawning; setting off a gamewide aoe mag 100 confuse that affects all players... (That's right this power is so epic not only does it not have a target cap but it also effects enemies and allies alike ) Finally he performs his bang zoom windupcut sending everyone to the moonbase. The End!


Ankhammon

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13423 on: November 29, 2014, 07:01:08 AM »
That was another part of the friendliness of CoH; you could pick your difficulty and up/down it at need in normal non-i content. And even in the i-content in Dark Astoria later on. I had a couple of character's I'd built strongly and I could up difficulty there just for soloing. But we didn't have to. I had characters made mainly for group synergy I used to run at -1 difficulty on when I was alone. ^_^

Personal thing: I know it doesn't make a lot of sense but I couldn't stand running at -1 difficulty even on my weakest characters.

If I couldn't run on at least +2 I was very unhappy with my character. I didn't have to have it at +2/+8 or anything, but there had to be some harder targets or I just didn't have any fun.

That's probably why I never made a MM that lasted. They all have that area from like 18 till 29 in which they just seem to get weaker and weaker. I know they come out of it and are very strong, but I just couldn't do it. Not when there were so many characters I could make.
Cogito, Ergo... eh?

Twisted Toon

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13424 on: November 29, 2014, 07:03:01 AM »
I think like two of my characters had Weave, maybe 3-4 of them had Tough...definitely wasn't necessary to play the game. None of the power pools were necessary, none of them were "NEEDED". Nice? Yeah. Powerful? Oh yeah. NEEDED? Nah.

I did take Boxing and Kick with my Street Justice character and enjoyed the hell out of the endless, no-delays-EVER beatdown that allowed.

Before the Fitness pool became inherent, I had Stamina on maybe 4 out of over 100 characters. After it became inherent, I had it on all of my characters, of course, but I only had slots added to those same 4 characters. And 2 of those characters had the Legacy Fitness pool. I had never respec'd them after the change. They still managed to be a useful and productive member of what ever group they were in. Stamina was never, ever, mandatory, except for those who attempted to keep their blue bar from ever moving...and after the Fitness pool was made inherent.

Now that I've made that statement, I will hide from the angry mob that wants to show me how wrong I must be.   :o
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Joshex

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13425 on: November 29, 2014, 11:18:39 AM »
That was another part of the friendliness of CoH; you could pick your difficulty and up/down it at need in normal non-i content. And even in the i-content in Dark Astoria later on. I had a couple of character's I'd built strongly and I could up difficulty there just for soloing. But we didn't have to. I had characters made mainly for group synergy I used to run at -1 difficulty on when I was alone. ^_^

my blapper tanks at -1 lol AOE blamo
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ukaserex

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13426 on: November 29, 2014, 01:55:00 PM »
Now that I've made that statement, I will hide from the angry mob that wants to show me how wrong I must be.   :o

Because you asked for it....

If your endurance bar isn't moving, it's because you're not doing enough/anything! /em kick to hiney for proper motivation


/*******************

In all seriousness, unless you're going a cookie cutter route, there is no *best* way to build or slot a character. That being said, I never had a character that didn't need stamina, nor did I ever have a character that couldn't have used MORE stamina, particularly my blasters, brutes and tanks, because they all had tough and weave, and the blasters usually had maneuvers as well. Toggle heavy characters of mine relied on end procs, stamina and end max, and end recovery bonuses to maintain the ability to fight solo.

On a team, pffft. Really, that's too easy, except for the epic fights against giant monsters and Cole in The Really Hard Way.

Just my opinion, of course.
Those who have no idea what they are doing genuinely have no idea that they don't know what they're doing. - John Cleese

umber

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13427 on: November 29, 2014, 04:01:35 PM »
Debating the "need" for Stamina always felt like hitting a moving target, ask 10 people the difference between "needing" and "wanting" Stamina and you'd get 11 different answers.  My own personal criteria for answering the question was:

Can this character make it through a single fight vs three +0 minions with enough stamina to continually attack and complete the encounter without becoming winded during the encounter?

That's the bare minimum requirement for me, a character who runs out of end halfway through an easy battle is a character who is darn close to unplayable.  Waiting for end to recharge in the middle of a fight, having toggles drop, is not fun and potentially "deadly",  Now some people might point out that this is actually playable, it might not be especially fun but it is do-able, but I consider a scenario where every single easy encounter is an exercise in frustration to be an example of an actual Need for stamina.  YMMV, my tolerance for pain-during-entertainment might be lower than yours.

Now this doesn't even get into the issue of characters who pass the above test but are now winded at the *end* of every single encounter.  Resting after every fight isn't much more fun, its slow and tedious, but its less of a deal breaker to me than being interrupted from playing my character during actual combat when I click on a power and nothing happens.  I'll chat while waiting for end to return post-combat, chatting mid-combat was likely a quick trip to the hospital.

Out of dozens of characters across multiple accounts, think I had 1-2 characters who didn't take Stamina and those were noble experiments.  It was not easy to find a character whose gameplay experience wasn't improved significantly by the presence of stamina over other power choices.  And this is coming from a player who refused to take Hasten despite knowing how much *it* improved performance.  Hasten made good characters better, I'll take the good baseline and skip that annoying glowy-hands visual and tying up an autofire selection.  Stamina made unplayable characters good.  Again, I'll take good as the baseline.

Everyone else can play as they want, this is how I played.  Don't want stamina, don't take stamina.  I've ran with petless MMs, there were worse builds I've kept alive ;)

AmberOfDzu

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13428 on: November 29, 2014, 04:09:37 PM »
I always took Stamina too. I recall having a few characters who actually really needed it, due to running a lot of toggles constantly. For the rest of my characters, it was part of building to feel super-powered -- I didn't want to ever run out of go-juice.

Rejolt

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13429 on: November 29, 2014, 05:41:08 PM »
I always took Stamina too. I recall having a few characters who actually really needed it, due to running a lot of toggles constantly. For the rest of my characters, it was part of building to feel super-powered -- I didn't want to ever run out of go-juice.

I even took stamina on toons that had Quick Recovery. I tried not taking it on a few toons with massive endurance returning powers (transference, power sink, etc) and I was one RNG hates me moment or poor spacial placement from being screwed.
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HEATSTROKE

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13430 on: November 29, 2014, 07:21:26 PM »
 Used stamina on every single toon every built.. even those with Quick Recovery.. you can never have too much Stamina.

LaughingAlex

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13431 on: November 29, 2014, 08:42:15 PM »
I was told quite frequently, and even had seen evidence of, that stamina actually made people play very poorly in many aspects.  They'd use stamina as an excuse for example to try and use area-effect attacks as single target attacks or generally not hit more then one enemy with any AoE, not even making any effort to line up the cones.  They took stamina so they could, quoting one of the guys that got me into city of heroes "Spammedy spam spam".  Thing is, spamming is ALWAYS a bad tactic, universally.  Spamming in the tactical sense means "Spraying and praying", not aiming, not timing powers or using them to support each other, not picking the threatening targets, just target a guy and attack with everything you have even if it's not held by a controller/tanker, even unbuffed and even if it's a +4 boss and your build up/aim is down.

Generally, being an idiot and relying on luck is what spam truely and always has been in all games.  I didn't take stamina most of the time but instead hit where I knew hit the hardest and helped the team most as a blaster.  Things around me died in a precise manner, I also did not need stamina as I had endurance management powers like power sink.  Only time I took stamina was if I had a brutally punishing powerset like storm summoning and even then I always made sure I took another set with a lot of skippable abilities.  If I had a powerset combo that was both to expensive to use endurance wise, no built in endurance powers and skipping more then 3 powers to take stamina gimped it?  I didn't do that combo.

Powersets I could think of that half-depended or depended on stamina:
Storm summoning(hurricane, freezing rain, snow storm and thunderstorm were both used often AND cost a ton of enduance).
Sonic resonance: (far more endurance-intensive powers than force fields plus having to aat the time renew everyones shield took half an end bar in a 8 man team)
Maybe martial arts(But I never touched this set, no AoE = no taking from me, I hate having only single-target most the game).
Time manipulation: Lots of expensive powers that costed a brutal amount and a very poor-quality endurance management power, even with stamina I had a hell of a time keeping up with this sets power demands.

Other sets though using that much endurance were few and far between.  Stamina wasn't that necessary, but I felt everyone always taking it as a must have requirement for EVERYTHING were actually pretty bad at power use.  Especially if they took it on powersets with things like quick recovery, and I then found people who felt both cardiac AND ageless incarnate powers both were must-haves, to, which was bullcrap because Ageless by ITSELF could handle even the most expensive builds at tier 3 or 4.  Having at least 100% endurance 75-100% of the time was more than enough, let alone also having a full end bar on cast plus 800% recovery for 30 seconds and then 300% extra for the next 30 seconds after.

You use far more endurance if you were using the wrong powers all the time, ultimately.  Fireball on that archvillain seem ok?  Use flairs instead, cheaper, especially when they buffed it's animation speeds, it cost only a THIRD the endurance, cast fast with the animation buff AND did the same damage.  Energy torrent on weakened lone guy?  Again, power bolt, seriously.  Freezing rain on lone guy thats weakened?  Oh I saw that once or twice.  Spamming powers just made you use about 2-3 times the endurance you needed to, i'm not kidding there and I saw so many spammers know?

I had nothing against inherent fitness, mind you, since a few builds I found here and there did need stamina, but there were quite a few more that honestly I felt didn't if you actually used your powers correctly rather than spam.
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

LaughingAlex

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13432 on: November 29, 2014, 08:49:21 PM »
Because you asked for it....

If your endurance bar isn't moving, it's because you're not doing enough/anything! /em kick to hiney for proper motivation


/*******************

In all seriousness, unless you're going a cookie cutter route, there is no *best* way to build or slot a character. That being said, I never had a character that didn't need stamina, nor did I ever have a character that couldn't have used MORE stamina, particularly my blasters, brutes and tanks, because they all had tough and weave, and the blasters usually had maneuvers as well. Toggle heavy characters of mine relied on end procs, stamina and end max, and end recovery bonuses to maintain the ability to fight solo.

On a team, pffft. Really, that's too easy, except for the epic fights against giant monsters and Cole in The Really Hard Way.

Just my opinion, of course.

My stamina-less blaster would have a word with ya :).  No stamina, just power sink.  My super kin would also have a word with ya, that was a character who had no RNG issues and had extremely high recharge(she had a chance to hit averaging 130+ due to leadership tactics and multiple +accuracy IOs as well as over 60% global recharge from IOs alone).  No stamina, but still managed to stack 2-3 fulcrum shifts and even launched novas regularly all the time even with the endurance crash :).
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

Taceus Jiwede

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13433 on: November 29, 2014, 09:37:52 PM »
Every character I built had Stamina.  I honestly couldn't say if a character ever needed it or not because I never had a character without it.  It just became a core part of all my builds.  I can say with certainty though there are much more useless powers then Stamina.  Even if you don't need stamina it makes a nice addition.  I always found my self skipping the less helpful powers in builds anyway and would just take random power pool power's.  So I never found Stamina to be taking up a power slot that I needed else where.

In other words.  Why not take it, i'll just pick a throw away power later that I need a whole lot less then stamina.

But I also am a bit of a min/maxer.  Which I know is shunned on these forums for some reason.  But I was never satisfied if my characters couldn't solo at least 0,4 with bosses on.  It just wasn't fun to me if I couldn't reach and then push beyond that level of difficulty in the game.

Ankhammon

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13434 on: November 29, 2014, 10:49:49 PM »
Ah, the happy go lucky stamina discussion.

I did to without stamina on a character once, and I found that if I slotted an end redux into the blast set and didn't take Hasten then I could do ok... I think that was one of the only chars I made without Hasten also.

For me, Hasten made me feel super. Yes, I can spam powers (spaming a heal is sometimes the best thing you can do for the team I.E. Hami raids), build harder hitting attack chains and have your get out of jail power up more often.

I'm not sure on the numbers but I always suspected that Stamina let me run Hasten. The recharge and the mini end crash on hasten was probably about what I saved using stamina.

But lets also face facts, the other powers in the fitness line were all very useful quality of life kind of powers and I always wanted them on a char. Things just didn't feel right without what they brought. 

All that was before inherent fitness. It was later that IOs put things into crazy land for the average character with rech, dam, def and all the other goodies you could get.

and LaughingAlex, Sonic Resonance was incredibly easy on the endurance if you made a defender and teamed. The rings made sure everyone on the team took just a little damage but not die, and the inherent gave you so much end redux you could run everything and blast for an hour straight without the blue bar ever going below 90%.
Best thing about my Sonic/Sonic Defender... if only Liquefy was on a shorter recharge.
Cogito, Ergo... eh?

LaughingAlex

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13435 on: November 29, 2014, 11:45:36 PM »
Ah, the happy go lucky stamina discussion.

I did to without stamina on a character once, and I found that if I slotted an end redux into the blast set and didn't take Hasten then I could do ok... I think that was one of the only chars I made without Hasten also.

For me, Hasten made me feel super. Yes, I can spam powers (spaming a heal is sometimes the best thing you can do for the team I.E. Hami raids), build harder hitting attack chains and have your get out of jail power up more often.

I'm not sure on the numbers but I always suspected that Stamina let me run Hasten. The recharge and the mini end crash on hasten was probably about what I saved using stamina.

But lets also face facts, the other powers in the fitness line were all very useful quality of life kind of powers and I always wanted them on a char. Things just didn't feel right without what they brought. 

All that was before inherent fitness. It was later that IOs put things into crazy land for the average character with rech, dam, def and all the other goodies you could get.

and LaughingAlex, Sonic Resonance was incredibly easy on the endurance if you made a defender and teamed. The rings made sure everyone on the team took just a little damage but not die, and the inherent gave you so much end redux you could run everything and blast for an hour straight without the blue bar ever going below 90%.
Best thing about my Sonic/Sonic Defender... if only Liquefy was on a shorter recharge.

I was tlaking more about the other abilities and also actually attacking.  Not attacking was to me, a crime in city of heroes.  But my experience with fire/sonic controller was always out of endurance :/.

I do agree that stamina was a nice thing to have, just not really required for everything.
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

ivanhedgehog

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13436 on: November 30, 2014, 12:49:51 AM »
things like my rad/rad defender, stone/em tank....needed stamina. having a stone tank that cant run granite because of stamina issues, or mud feet, was kinda self defeating. radiation infection was heavy on the end...slotting end reduc takes away slots that can be used to make it hit much harder. I built and slotted the way I wanted...which included stamina. i watched too many blasters sitting at zero endurance...all the while claiming they were perfectly fine without stamina.

Power Gamer

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13437 on: November 30, 2014, 02:09:19 AM »
I was tlaking more about the other abilities and also actually attacking.  Not attacking was to me, a crime in city of heroes.  But my experience with fire/sonic controller was always out of endurance :/.

I do agree that stamina was a nice thing to have, just not really required for everything.

My emp/rad defender had only 2 attacks, as I focused mainly on healing.

Worked well for the teams I ran.

I did have stuff like the black wand and nemesis staff as a backup in case I needed to contribute to a firefight. But my main objective was to keep the team healed. Which was a full time job :)
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LaughingAlex

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13438 on: November 30, 2014, 02:17:20 AM »
My emp/rad defender had only 2 attacks, as I focused mainly on healing.

Worked well for the teams I ran.

I did have stuff like the black wand and nemesis staff as a backup in case I needed to contribute to a firefight. But my main objective was to keep the team healed. Which was a full time job :)

As in, you only healed?  Eh, good luck getting on my team and having anything to do cause if it was a "full time job" then you'd be waiting around doing, well, nothing on the kinds of teams I'd end up on.  I always had the team buffed up more than enough to ensure healing wasn't necessary.
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

Ankhammon

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13439 on: November 30, 2014, 02:54:24 AM »
I was tlaking more about the other abilities and also actually attacking.  Not attacking was to me, a crime in city of heroes.  But my experience with fire/sonic controller was always out of endurance :/.

I do agree that stamina was a nice thing to have, just not really required for everything.

Just so you know, I was talking about how Sonic/sonic interacted with the defender inherent. The Defender end discount was just huge when your team took 10% or so damage and you basically could blast for free. It was a special benefit that really only applied to SR defenders.
Every other defender primary had ways of negating their own inherent while trying to keep the team upright.
Cogito, Ergo... eh?