Author Topic: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?  (Read 23993 times)

Nealix

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Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« on: August 12, 2013, 08:00:12 AM »
CoH was the primary MMO I played until it was closed down.  I started playing in beta and continued all through its life cycle.  I tried other games like CO and DCUO but they just didn't spark as well with me.  Why did I find CoH superior?  Let me count the ways:

1. CoH had more powers than any other superhero MMO.  I really miss the ones you can't get in other games like water blast, gravity, shield, plant and radiation.  It limits my character creativity to play other games and I miss it.  Not only do I miss the powers that other games don't have but also the ones that CoH got right that I don't feel other games did, like cold blast.  I loved cold blast in CoH.  Not only that but you could also get cold melee and defense powers as well.  You just can't do that in other games.  Same with fire.  There was more than one power set revolving around it.

2. Villains.  You could play an actual villain in CoH.  Where else can you actually do that?  Not only could you play a villain but you could reform to a hero or have a hero go bad.  Genius.

3. Content.  There was just so much content in CoH built up over the years.  Not only can no other superhero game match it but if you put CO and DCUO content together they wouldn't add up to the content in CoH.

4. Incarnate trials.  I played them so much with my level 50 characters.  They were like raids in Everquest (which was my main game before CoH) only not so long and tedious.

5. Enhancements.  I miss all those special enhancements you could get to give your character additional abilities like defense, recharge time reduction or health and endurance increases.  They really helped you make your high level characters feel more powerful.

6. The music.  I miss zipping around Paragon city with my own personal sound track.  It resonated with me more than any other game currently available.

7. New content.  Since Freedom there was so much more content released.  I didn't even mind paying for the costumes and powers I didn't get as a subscriber.   They were all so great!

8. Character slots.  With so many servers and so many slots per server I was able to create more characters than any other game would allow me to.  Creating characters has been one of my favorite things since I started drawing superheroes in high school and that was many, many years go.

9.  The community.  Never before and never since have I played a game that had so many great people in it always willing to help each other out.  I still play MMO's but there are just so many games where the jerks outnumber the good folks.

Well there you have it.  My list of bright spots that where eclipsed by the closing of the best superhero game to ever be created...so far.

PunkusJR

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2013, 08:03:26 AM »
I agree with you on all of this. Though if I'm honest with myself, Champions online had potential to be better with it's combat system and freeform builds. To bad the rest of the game falls so flat.
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Nightwatch

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2013, 08:25:27 AM »
Agree with all of this but add two more.

Having ICON made filling all the character slots so much more interesting.  Sometimes I would just log in and experiment with various costume designs.

I loved the solo-teaming variability of the experience.  Sometimes I just wanted to log in and solo and did so often for days.  Other times I wanted to team and could pick up teams (at least on Virtue) very easily.

Like you I tried CO and I also tried TSW and ST.  They were nowhere near CoX for me.

CheerGunbunny

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2013, 12:03:02 PM »
I agree with, in original post, 1, 2, 3, 7, 8.

#5 sounds like IO set stuff, which I didn't like at all.  I liked enhancements, in that there was (barring IO set) absolutely NO equipment grinding/farming (hami raids were not what I'd call grind/farm...you showed up, did it, got a reward....I know someone who camped a spawn in EQ for *literally* 42 hours, nonstop.  Every  1/2 hour, spawn....either placeholder or the mob-with-desired-loot, but very low probability of desired mob.)  Even when they added that, for PvE, not having those was not an impediment, even for endgame.  So nice.....

what I liked the most, above all else, was the elegant simplicity.  Could pick up how to play in the tutorial in about 5 minutes, and could log in, solo for fifteen minutes, and have actually accomplished something, rather than, "OK, did my factioning for today...gotta remember to tradeskill tonight, too".  no "Holy Trinity"....Hellfire, I did an all-blaster TF.  :)

dwturducken

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2013, 01:59:12 PM »
I never did enough of the Incarnate stuff, in my opinion. I blame alt-itis. The day of the shutdown, in fact, I made a new character. I don't remember what it eve was. :)

The thing that keeps occurring to me in posts like this, and in discussions of what is being or should be included in the community game projects, is that these things that we loved, the strengths that our game had over the others, came over time. The game was always improving. I was not around at the beginning, but many of the folks who were will frequently post about what a hot mess the game was in the first few issues, even as they are posting things like this or to threads like this. For me, this is as much a strength as anything else.

The current games do not have many of the strengths or the features that we miss, but they still have some potential. Of the two, I actually feel better about the potential in CO, with the dribs and drabs currently coming from Cryptic North. DCUO adds DLC, but the focus for DC still seems to be on new games. In the end, though, I'm holding out for the community projects. all three are showing real promise, whatever the personal feelngs various people may have for or against one project or another.

The only thing I would actually counter is the comment on villains, item number three. I actually found the villainy in DCUO to be more villainous than in CoH, but the overall game was so annoying that I was still put off by the game. Also, there is a small group of the CO forum community that keeps calling for a "red side" in that game, but the lack of any new content is a bigger problem for Cryptic to address than creating what essentially amounts to an entire new game. It would be nice, but I'd rather see them make improvements to what is there and start a true schedule for rolling out new content.
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Cinnder

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2013, 02:36:13 PM »
The things pointed out above plus:

- Intelligent combat system that made you think; not just a clickfest that encourages you to spam your best attack repeatedly
- Appearance not tied to ability, no loot drops/chests -- thus promoting a spirit of cooperation
- They got the balance between serious and humour right (for the most part)
- There was a palpable feeling of increased power as your character levelled

Super Firebug

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2013, 05:02:36 PM »
I'd also add: developers who actually PLAYED the game, genuinely LOVED what they did, and LISTENED to the players as fellow players. Just try to find that in ANY other MMO, let alone a superhero MMO.
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srmalloy

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2013, 05:30:59 PM »
5. Enhancements.  I miss all those special enhancements you could get to give your character additional abilities like defense, recharge time reduction or health and endurance increases.  They really helped you make your high level characters feel more powerful.

Not so much more powerful as giving you one more avenue to customize your character into something uniquely your own, rather than having the power be defined entirely by the game as you get it.

- Appearance not tied to ability, no loot drops/chests -- thus promoting a spirit of cooperation

And also allowing continuous play, where your team takes down a spawn and continues toward the next one, instead of stopping to argue out need/greed/disassemble/pass choices on all of the quality drops from the spawn. Or the occasional immersion-breaking imagery -- for example, in SWTOR, making sure your Jedi, guardians of peace and order in the galaxy, loot the bodies of the Imperial troops they just cut down.

And I forgot one... Burying virtually all of your missions inside instances, so that you didn't have to worry about jumping into combat with the mobs defending a misssion objective and then seeing some other player rush in while the mobs are fighting you to snag the objective, forcing you to wait for it to respawn, or having a mission goal be defeating some specific mob on a long respawn timer and finding four others already camping the spawn point.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 06:07:14 PM by srmalloy »

Eoraptor

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2013, 05:34:32 PM »
I'd also add: developers who actually PLAYED the game, genuinely LOVED what they did, and LISTENED to the players as fellow players. Just try to find that in ANY other MMO, let alone a superhero MMO.
This! This all over the place. Too many other MMOs are just profit hogs. The programmers are told "put this feature in, it's what the kids are playing right now"  and they do, with no thought to the game, its customers, or how any of it interacts. This is how Champions ended up with six different currencies, vehicles for people who could already fly or run, and whatever the hell mods is.

but in general. I miss the writing, and the versatility. I miss learning the lore of Atlas the Hero and of dark astoria, and I miss the fun experience of helping Twinshot repel the praetorean clockworks through a well told story arc about characters I cared about.

More importantly, I miss turning on the game and knowing I could play it solo, I could play it on a team, I could play it as a roleplay, I could play around in the market, or the invention system, or I could go to AE. all the other games are "you'll play how we tell you to play"
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Kyriani

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2013, 06:45:46 PM »
For me the reasons are:

1) Aesthetic - I loved the way COH looks. Characters look heroic and interesting. This is primary reason I dislike CO, it just doesn't look good to me. I also love that my appearance doesn't change unless I want it to. "Gear" not affecting appearance is a huge plus.

2) Ease of play - The game never tried to be complicated at its core but gameplay could potentially become more complicated if the player wanted to explore IO's and various synergy builds.

3) Variety - Between the costumes, archetypes, and power combinations we had so many options as far as character creation went. We also had a huge number of story arcs and a great deal of freedom to choose which arcs we want to do to level our character so every character's story has the potential to be different.

4) Something for everyone - There was generally something for everyone. If you wanted to solo or group you had various options to do so. You weren't totally left out of end game advancement if you preferred to solo but grouping had incentives to keep it enticing.

5) Great Community - The public chat was generally pleasant and informative to read. We didn't see a great deal of the crap that often appears in other games.

Eoraptor

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2013, 06:50:21 PM »

5) Great Community - The public chat was generally pleasant and informative to read. We didn't see a great deal of the crap that often appears in other games.
Sadly some of this changed with Freedom. When they made the colossal mistake of making "chat" a pay feature things started to go down hill. No, the tone was still civil, but everyone who was a feebie player started to chat across the help channel, which made getting actual help rather a lot more difficult a lot of the time. it was still fun, but yeah I spent twenty minutes waiting for an answer to a question on the /H channel one night. I'd hate to think what may have happened had that trend been allowed to continue beyond the year of Freedom play with no resolution.
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Triplash

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2013, 07:16:56 PM »
That list is pretty spot on, yep. I feel the same way about most of it; only differences being Incarnate Trials (I teamed so rarely anyway, due to constant RL interruptions, that I only ever ran two of them) and background music (it distracts me from what's going on in a game so I usually turn it off).

If I was making up my list of reasons... lemme see. To sum it up, here was a game that offered:

1) a community of players worth going out of your way for; friendly and inviting people who were drawn to the game, and one another, because the environment promoted those values

2) a major creative outlet in SG bases, which could be grown and arranged to suit a wide variety of needs and whims

3) a major creative outlet in character costumes, which were so versatile and varied that people regularly held public contests to exhibit their creations and compete for prizes

4) a teaming system that was revamped to remove unnecessary restrictions, allowing you to join other players regardless of level differences, while still progressing your character and earning rewards

5) the ability to take and use efficient travel powers at very early levels, thus drastically reducing the amount of wasted time between major activities

6) powers that were highly effective at what they did, making you feel like choosing one power over another was an actual strategy, and leveling meant more than just adding up small percentages

7) the ability to experience most of the game's content as a solo player, and if you decided to team with others, it really didn't matter what their class or build or gear looked like, or what size or race or gender or alignment they were; you just knew that, unless you turned the difficulty up to eleven, you were going to steamroll it

8 ) the chance to attempt, and achieve, some truly crazy and powerful accomplishments; things which, by other games' logic, should not be possible, and yet once you pull them off you feel like you should be the one in there wearing a mask, because you're a freaking superhero

Dollhouse

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2013, 07:34:13 PM »
I'd also add: developers who actually PLAYED the game, genuinely LOVED what they did, and LISTENED to the players as fellow players. Just try to find that in ANY other MMO, let alone a superhero MMO.

TSW and Fallen Earth, to name two. There may be more with developers involved to the same level as those pf Paragon Studios, but those two for sure. Not a lot of devs left for Fallen Earth...but I've not only seen them in-game, I've teamed with them! TSW devs are regular forum participants, etc., and player feedback is clearly important to them. All that said, CoH's staff may have been equaled in its interaction with the game's community, but it sure hasn't been beaten.

Returning to the OP's points, I agree with each of them, excepting possibly the Incarnate one. I found the Trials grindy in the extreme (for all that I did them a LOT...most of my two dozen or so 50s were to some degree Incarnated, and three or four more-or-less taken to the top). I hated the additional currency proliferation (something TSW annoys the hell out of me with, too). I wasn't a fan of how the system essentially trivialized most content not intended for Incarnates, either.

But CoH did so many things so very well, and yes, in comparison to all MMOs, not just the capes-and-tights subset. I can't think of a game that even comes close in terms of day-to-day quality of life stuff like ease of teaming (including sidekicks and exemplars.  Like the fact that decent players could beat the vast majority of content with ANY combination of ATs and powers, if they played smart and put some thought into it.  And so forth...

So much the industry can still learn from this game!

Eoraptor

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2013, 08:00:59 PM »
So much the industry can still learn from this game!
Which was why it had to be killed!

pardon the tinfoil hat wearing, but just imagine how Blizzard might have felt if more people playing WoW had played CoH for a few days;  had learned of a world largely free of trolls, a world where it wasn't always about grind your way to the top, a world not built around BF Skinner and click-button-receive-bacon rewards but round story telling and community.

why, if people didn't spend hours grinding away pointlessly for the next shiny, the entire economic model would collapse. Companies like Zynga and Blizzard have largely built their entire corporate mindset around "get them addicted" rather than "get them involved," sometimes to truly terrifying levels.

Just imagine if tomorrow Blizzard announced that on Nov 1, WoW would cease to function. sure there would be wailing and gnashing of teeth, but a year on, would anyone much care? (and yes it is public knowledge that WoW seems to have crested and is starting to hemorrhage subscribers) would a lot of people still be trying to create "the spiritual successor to the Warcraft community" or trying to generate private wow-crack servers? would there be "Orcin Icon" to let you run around deserted Warcraft zones in costume and summon night elves to party with?

That's why NCSoft axed CoH, IMhO.... because it stuck out like a sore thumb in a world of grindfest money machines that required no investment beyond new shinies every six months to keep people paying into it.

and yes, I am drawing hyperbole, but only to serve as exemplar.
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JaguarX

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2013, 10:46:40 PM »
Which was why it had to be killed!

pardon the tinfoil hat wearing, but just imagine how Blizzard might have felt if more people playing WoW had played CoH for a few days;  had learned of a world largely free of trolls, a world where it wasn't always about grind your way to the top, a world not built around BF Skinner and click-button-receive-bacon rewards but round story telling and community.

why, if people didn't spend hours grinding away pointlessly for the next shiny, the entire economic model would collapse. Companies like Zynga and Blizzard have largely built their entire corporate mindset around "get them addicted" rather than "get them involved," sometimes to truly terrifying levels.

Just imagine if tomorrow Blizzard announced that on Nov 1, WoW would cease to function. sure there would be wailing and gnashing of teeth, but a year on, would anyone much care? (and yes it is public knowledge that WoW seems to have crested and is starting to hemorrhage subscribers) would a lot of people still be trying to create "the spiritual successor to the Warcraft community" or trying to generate private wow-crack servers? would there be "Orcin Icon" to let you run around deserted Warcraft zones in costume and summon night elves to party with?

That's why NCSoft axed CoH, IMhO.... because it stuck out like a sore thumb in a world of grindfest money machines that required no investment beyond new shinies every six months to keep people paying into it.

and yes, I am drawing hyperbole, but only to serve as exemplar.
yeah.

But I heard there are already WoW private servers.

LaughingAlex

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2013, 11:40:32 PM »
From everything I read I agree.  Honestly I've felt more powerful in CoX then I did in CO or guild wars, because both of those games they make the logic that your just a little peice of some team or army, not an actual force that by yourself actually makes a difference.  Alot of mmo's just don't have any kind of real force multipliers, if anything CoX was actually somewhat "realistic" in the terms of force of power; it had force multipliers, something MMO's never have.  Five players in most games is really just equal to five players, if they take on something requiring a sixth person the die badly.  In CoX however buffs/debuffs and crowd control were so effective that 2 defenders/corruptors being among those 5 players could easily make it seem like the team has 10-20 people in it or more then that.  The buffs/debuffs and crowd control to me gave the game a layer of depth you don't see in most mmo's; where its down to "if you fail to bring X you automatically lose", CoX a losing team was more due to general incompetence and not making any use of any force multipliers(and every archtype had them to some extent or another).

I also miss the content, and how the enemies ranked up in CoX.  More and more I find myself feeling unchallenged in CO, when something is difficult however it's only due to fake difficulty of the game mobs having something that has no counter to it.  In CoX however, every villain group had it's strengths and weaknesses, and their counters to them.  Malta operatives may have had holds/stuns and end-draining, they were vulnerable to confusion, and even more vulnerable to crowd control themselves.  The Cimerorans may have had -defense debuffs, but they were mostly limited to melee, and they had long cooldowns, making them especially vulnerable to -recharge debuffs.  Nemesis may have had resistances to crowd control but they could still be debuffed into oblivion.  Just three examples. 

In CO however?  LEts see, I go into a lair, the mobs have knockbacks that ignore the knockback rule of 3 knocks = immunity, so I get juggled around as if i'm playing mortal kombat.  I don't even get to attack in those periods and can get killed easily even if I'm bringing an otherwise especially enduring build.  The anderthal map likewise also has nothing but tedious tanks to fight, that gets worst with the end fight having, also, endless uncounterable knocks into lava(due to blocks not really stopping kb anymore, and the lack of +kb resistance gear in the game currently).  Holds in alerts also last ludicrous amounts of time and the counter to them, blocking them, doesn't work like it used to.  And cryptic is NERFING level 40 players in alerts by cutting their damage in half now(and trying to veinly buff lower level players, which has already been tested to not work).  I still play the game but there are alot of periods of just fake difficulty creeping in due to neglegence.  I hope they finally begin to wake up soon about the content problem and the lack of powerset balance and the sore lack of support(which just as well be nothing but healing, since there are so few powers for crowd control that work, if at all, and only a few buffs that are usefull, with almost no major debuffs in the game).
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TinToySoldier

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2013, 11:53:50 PM »
Really quick!  I agree with everything thats been said so far.  I just want to add one thing that is small, but is annoying when playing other games.  I like being able to jump!  Just a regular jump.  Over a rock... Onto a chair...  It felt good to jump in CoX.

Why can't I jump in a lot of games?

silvers1

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2013, 11:57:13 PM »
I agree with most of the points here.  A couple more:

1.  A feeling that your character became more powerful relative to even level mobs as you gained in level.  I have not experienced that in any other
MMORPG, and I've played quite a few.

2.  No focus on loot, loot, and more loot. Yes, you could trick out your character with IOs, but it wasnt really needed.  So tired of "gear scores"
and "damage meters" in other games.

3.  The integral design feature of this game -   combinations of archtypes and powersets make you more powerful than any character alone.
Buffs/Debuffs made the game rock.  I never felt like any group was the same, every PUG felt completely different. 

4.  No DPS/Tank/Healer trinity needed.  You could put 8 of anything together and do just fine.

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ukaserex

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2013, 01:51:12 AM »
Although I don't necessarily disagree with any items in any of the lists above, for me, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

As much as I hate to admit it now, the best part for me was the ability to simply monitor the different chat channels and participate in certain discussions. Sometimes just watching what people were talking about was so riveting, I'd have to use a rez because I was paying more attention to what @Bloodwynd was saying and then what @NYC would say and so on, etc.

Reading the forums, seeing names and reading what they had to say, and then by chance running into them in game and putting a pixelated face to the name.
Hah! I recall forming an MoUGT and "One who overuses emoticons" joined the iTrial. I contemplated not inviting this party, but curiosity got the best of me. Despite AFK and being out of position at certain points (UGT can be a lengthy trial, so I tolerated that a bit more than I would in a different iTrial) the competence of play was there, as was what in football we called "Positional Awareness". Some people have two monitors, or really huge ones, which allow them to see so much more than the rest of us with a simply 17 inch monitor. Some can type a gazillion words per minute and don't need 8 trays of macros covering up their screen, lol.

I miss the stupid need to trade inf with @piggybank on one server to get the same amount back on another, less a gratuity. Heh, that amount used to be just 2 million inf, lol.

But hey, I have my wits about me (well, I'm half right about that anyway) and with them are the memories.
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Nealix

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2013, 02:14:07 AM »
I play CO now but really only because I need my hero fix and a creative outlet for character creation.  Its a lot easier to level in CO and I mostly solo except for alerts (I like to get the First Responder title).  There isn't much of an end game.  The nemesis system is interesting.  The character creator is as good or arguably better, as it has a few more slots to fill, which is no surprise from the same game company.  There are powers in CO you can't get in other games but not nearly as many.  I like the power armor, boomerang, air and sorcery powers (though sorcery seems to be a bit harder for me to survive at) which CoH didn't have but overall I feel much more stunted on character creation  (not looks but overall concept).

Some of the things I don't like about CO are feeling your powers are getting less effective as you level compared to your enemy power level, the lack of regular content updates and lockboxes.  Lockboxes are the devil!  There are other things that bother me about CO but really all it does is make me miss CoH.

One more thing I should have added to my list is auras.  I loved the auras in CoH.  In CO you pretty much can only get them attached to a travel or other type of power.