Author Topic: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?  (Read 23911 times)

Nealix

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Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« on: August 12, 2013, 08:00:12 AM »
CoH was the primary MMO I played until it was closed down.  I started playing in beta and continued all through its life cycle.  I tried other games like CO and DCUO but they just didn't spark as well with me.  Why did I find CoH superior?  Let me count the ways:

1. CoH had more powers than any other superhero MMO.  I really miss the ones you can't get in other games like water blast, gravity, shield, plant and radiation.  It limits my character creativity to play other games and I miss it.  Not only do I miss the powers that other games don't have but also the ones that CoH got right that I don't feel other games did, like cold blast.  I loved cold blast in CoH.  Not only that but you could also get cold melee and defense powers as well.  You just can't do that in other games.  Same with fire.  There was more than one power set revolving around it.

2. Villains.  You could play an actual villain in CoH.  Where else can you actually do that?  Not only could you play a villain but you could reform to a hero or have a hero go bad.  Genius.

3. Content.  There was just so much content in CoH built up over the years.  Not only can no other superhero game match it but if you put CO and DCUO content together they wouldn't add up to the content in CoH.

4. Incarnate trials.  I played them so much with my level 50 characters.  They were like raids in Everquest (which was my main game before CoH) only not so long and tedious.

5. Enhancements.  I miss all those special enhancements you could get to give your character additional abilities like defense, recharge time reduction or health and endurance increases.  They really helped you make your high level characters feel more powerful.

6. The music.  I miss zipping around Paragon city with my own personal sound track.  It resonated with me more than any other game currently available.

7. New content.  Since Freedom there was so much more content released.  I didn't even mind paying for the costumes and powers I didn't get as a subscriber.   They were all so great!

8. Character slots.  With so many servers and so many slots per server I was able to create more characters than any other game would allow me to.  Creating characters has been one of my favorite things since I started drawing superheroes in high school and that was many, many years go.

9.  The community.  Never before and never since have I played a game that had so many great people in it always willing to help each other out.  I still play MMO's but there are just so many games where the jerks outnumber the good folks.

Well there you have it.  My list of bright spots that where eclipsed by the closing of the best superhero game to ever be created...so far.

PunkusJR

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2013, 08:03:26 AM »
I agree with you on all of this. Though if I'm honest with myself, Champions online had potential to be better with it's combat system and freeform builds. To bad the rest of the game falls so flat.
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Nightwatch

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2013, 08:25:27 AM »
Agree with all of this but add two more.

Having ICON made filling all the character slots so much more interesting.  Sometimes I would just log in and experiment with various costume designs.

I loved the solo-teaming variability of the experience.  Sometimes I just wanted to log in and solo and did so often for days.  Other times I wanted to team and could pick up teams (at least on Virtue) very easily.

Like you I tried CO and I also tried TSW and ST.  They were nowhere near CoX for me.

CheerGunbunny

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2013, 12:03:02 PM »
I agree with, in original post, 1, 2, 3, 7, 8.

#5 sounds like IO set stuff, which I didn't like at all.  I liked enhancements, in that there was (barring IO set) absolutely NO equipment grinding/farming (hami raids were not what I'd call grind/farm...you showed up, did it, got a reward....I know someone who camped a spawn in EQ for *literally* 42 hours, nonstop.  Every  1/2 hour, spawn....either placeholder or the mob-with-desired-loot, but very low probability of desired mob.)  Even when they added that, for PvE, not having those was not an impediment, even for endgame.  So nice.....

what I liked the most, above all else, was the elegant simplicity.  Could pick up how to play in the tutorial in about 5 minutes, and could log in, solo for fifteen minutes, and have actually accomplished something, rather than, "OK, did my factioning for today...gotta remember to tradeskill tonight, too".  no "Holy Trinity"....Hellfire, I did an all-blaster TF.  :)

dwturducken

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2013, 01:59:12 PM »
I never did enough of the Incarnate stuff, in my opinion. I blame alt-itis. The day of the shutdown, in fact, I made a new character. I don't remember what it eve was. :)

The thing that keeps occurring to me in posts like this, and in discussions of what is being or should be included in the community game projects, is that these things that we loved, the strengths that our game had over the others, came over time. The game was always improving. I was not around at the beginning, but many of the folks who were will frequently post about what a hot mess the game was in the first few issues, even as they are posting things like this or to threads like this. For me, this is as much a strength as anything else.

The current games do not have many of the strengths or the features that we miss, but they still have some potential. Of the two, I actually feel better about the potential in CO, with the dribs and drabs currently coming from Cryptic North. DCUO adds DLC, but the focus for DC still seems to be on new games. In the end, though, I'm holding out for the community projects. all three are showing real promise, whatever the personal feelngs various people may have for or against one project or another.

The only thing I would actually counter is the comment on villains, item number three. I actually found the villainy in DCUO to be more villainous than in CoH, but the overall game was so annoying that I was still put off by the game. Also, there is a small group of the CO forum community that keeps calling for a "red side" in that game, but the lack of any new content is a bigger problem for Cryptic to address than creating what essentially amounts to an entire new game. It would be nice, but I'd rather see them make improvements to what is there and start a true schedule for rolling out new content.
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Cinnder

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2013, 02:36:13 PM »
The things pointed out above plus:

- Intelligent combat system that made you think; not just a clickfest that encourages you to spam your best attack repeatedly
- Appearance not tied to ability, no loot drops/chests -- thus promoting a spirit of cooperation
- They got the balance between serious and humour right (for the most part)
- There was a palpable feeling of increased power as your character levelled

Super Firebug

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2013, 05:02:36 PM »
I'd also add: developers who actually PLAYED the game, genuinely LOVED what they did, and LISTENED to the players as fellow players. Just try to find that in ANY other MMO, let alone a superhero MMO.
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srmalloy

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2013, 05:30:59 PM »
5. Enhancements.  I miss all those special enhancements you could get to give your character additional abilities like defense, recharge time reduction or health and endurance increases.  They really helped you make your high level characters feel more powerful.

Not so much more powerful as giving you one more avenue to customize your character into something uniquely your own, rather than having the power be defined entirely by the game as you get it.

- Appearance not tied to ability, no loot drops/chests -- thus promoting a spirit of cooperation

And also allowing continuous play, where your team takes down a spawn and continues toward the next one, instead of stopping to argue out need/greed/disassemble/pass choices on all of the quality drops from the spawn. Or the occasional immersion-breaking imagery -- for example, in SWTOR, making sure your Jedi, guardians of peace and order in the galaxy, loot the bodies of the Imperial troops they just cut down.

And I forgot one... Burying virtually all of your missions inside instances, so that you didn't have to worry about jumping into combat with the mobs defending a misssion objective and then seeing some other player rush in while the mobs are fighting you to snag the objective, forcing you to wait for it to respawn, or having a mission goal be defeating some specific mob on a long respawn timer and finding four others already camping the spawn point.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 06:07:14 PM by srmalloy »

Eoraptor

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2013, 05:34:32 PM »
I'd also add: developers who actually PLAYED the game, genuinely LOVED what they did, and LISTENED to the players as fellow players. Just try to find that in ANY other MMO, let alone a superhero MMO.
This! This all over the place. Too many other MMOs are just profit hogs. The programmers are told "put this feature in, it's what the kids are playing right now"  and they do, with no thought to the game, its customers, or how any of it interacts. This is how Champions ended up with six different currencies, vehicles for people who could already fly or run, and whatever the hell mods is.

but in general. I miss the writing, and the versatility. I miss learning the lore of Atlas the Hero and of dark astoria, and I miss the fun experience of helping Twinshot repel the praetorean clockworks through a well told story arc about characters I cared about.

More importantly, I miss turning on the game and knowing I could play it solo, I could play it on a team, I could play it as a roleplay, I could play around in the market, or the invention system, or I could go to AE. all the other games are "you'll play how we tell you to play"
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Kyriani

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2013, 06:45:46 PM »
For me the reasons are:

1) Aesthetic - I loved the way COH looks. Characters look heroic and interesting. This is primary reason I dislike CO, it just doesn't look good to me. I also love that my appearance doesn't change unless I want it to. "Gear" not affecting appearance is a huge plus.

2) Ease of play - The game never tried to be complicated at its core but gameplay could potentially become more complicated if the player wanted to explore IO's and various synergy builds.

3) Variety - Between the costumes, archetypes, and power combinations we had so many options as far as character creation went. We also had a huge number of story arcs and a great deal of freedom to choose which arcs we want to do to level our character so every character's story has the potential to be different.

4) Something for everyone - There was generally something for everyone. If you wanted to solo or group you had various options to do so. You weren't totally left out of end game advancement if you preferred to solo but grouping had incentives to keep it enticing.

5) Great Community - The public chat was generally pleasant and informative to read. We didn't see a great deal of the crap that often appears in other games.

Eoraptor

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2013, 06:50:21 PM »

5) Great Community - The public chat was generally pleasant and informative to read. We didn't see a great deal of the crap that often appears in other games.
Sadly some of this changed with Freedom. When they made the colossal mistake of making "chat" a pay feature things started to go down hill. No, the tone was still civil, but everyone who was a feebie player started to chat across the help channel, which made getting actual help rather a lot more difficult a lot of the time. it was still fun, but yeah I spent twenty minutes waiting for an answer to a question on the /H channel one night. I'd hate to think what may have happened had that trend been allowed to continue beyond the year of Freedom play with no resolution.
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Triplash

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2013, 07:16:56 PM »
That list is pretty spot on, yep. I feel the same way about most of it; only differences being Incarnate Trials (I teamed so rarely anyway, due to constant RL interruptions, that I only ever ran two of them) and background music (it distracts me from what's going on in a game so I usually turn it off).

If I was making up my list of reasons... lemme see. To sum it up, here was a game that offered:

1) a community of players worth going out of your way for; friendly and inviting people who were drawn to the game, and one another, because the environment promoted those values

2) a major creative outlet in SG bases, which could be grown and arranged to suit a wide variety of needs and whims

3) a major creative outlet in character costumes, which were so versatile and varied that people regularly held public contests to exhibit their creations and compete for prizes

4) a teaming system that was revamped to remove unnecessary restrictions, allowing you to join other players regardless of level differences, while still progressing your character and earning rewards

5) the ability to take and use efficient travel powers at very early levels, thus drastically reducing the amount of wasted time between major activities

6) powers that were highly effective at what they did, making you feel like choosing one power over another was an actual strategy, and leveling meant more than just adding up small percentages

7) the ability to experience most of the game's content as a solo player, and if you decided to team with others, it really didn't matter what their class or build or gear looked like, or what size or race or gender or alignment they were; you just knew that, unless you turned the difficulty up to eleven, you were going to steamroll it

8 ) the chance to attempt, and achieve, some truly crazy and powerful accomplishments; things which, by other games' logic, should not be possible, and yet once you pull them off you feel like you should be the one in there wearing a mask, because you're a freaking superhero

Dollhouse

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2013, 07:34:13 PM »
I'd also add: developers who actually PLAYED the game, genuinely LOVED what they did, and LISTENED to the players as fellow players. Just try to find that in ANY other MMO, let alone a superhero MMO.

TSW and Fallen Earth, to name two. There may be more with developers involved to the same level as those pf Paragon Studios, but those two for sure. Not a lot of devs left for Fallen Earth...but I've not only seen them in-game, I've teamed with them! TSW devs are regular forum participants, etc., and player feedback is clearly important to them. All that said, CoH's staff may have been equaled in its interaction with the game's community, but it sure hasn't been beaten.

Returning to the OP's points, I agree with each of them, excepting possibly the Incarnate one. I found the Trials grindy in the extreme (for all that I did them a LOT...most of my two dozen or so 50s were to some degree Incarnated, and three or four more-or-less taken to the top). I hated the additional currency proliferation (something TSW annoys the hell out of me with, too). I wasn't a fan of how the system essentially trivialized most content not intended for Incarnates, either.

But CoH did so many things so very well, and yes, in comparison to all MMOs, not just the capes-and-tights subset. I can't think of a game that even comes close in terms of day-to-day quality of life stuff like ease of teaming (including sidekicks and exemplars.  Like the fact that decent players could beat the vast majority of content with ANY combination of ATs and powers, if they played smart and put some thought into it.  And so forth...

So much the industry can still learn from this game!

Eoraptor

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2013, 08:00:59 PM »
So much the industry can still learn from this game!
Which was why it had to be killed!

pardon the tinfoil hat wearing, but just imagine how Blizzard might have felt if more people playing WoW had played CoH for a few days;  had learned of a world largely free of trolls, a world where it wasn't always about grind your way to the top, a world not built around BF Skinner and click-button-receive-bacon rewards but round story telling and community.

why, if people didn't spend hours grinding away pointlessly for the next shiny, the entire economic model would collapse. Companies like Zynga and Blizzard have largely built their entire corporate mindset around "get them addicted" rather than "get them involved," sometimes to truly terrifying levels.

Just imagine if tomorrow Blizzard announced that on Nov 1, WoW would cease to function. sure there would be wailing and gnashing of teeth, but a year on, would anyone much care? (and yes it is public knowledge that WoW seems to have crested and is starting to hemorrhage subscribers) would a lot of people still be trying to create "the spiritual successor to the Warcraft community" or trying to generate private wow-crack servers? would there be "Orcin Icon" to let you run around deserted Warcraft zones in costume and summon night elves to party with?

That's why NCSoft axed CoH, IMhO.... because it stuck out like a sore thumb in a world of grindfest money machines that required no investment beyond new shinies every six months to keep people paying into it.

and yes, I am drawing hyperbole, but only to serve as exemplar.
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JaguarX

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2013, 10:46:40 PM »
Which was why it had to be killed!

pardon the tinfoil hat wearing, but just imagine how Blizzard might have felt if more people playing WoW had played CoH for a few days;  had learned of a world largely free of trolls, a world where it wasn't always about grind your way to the top, a world not built around BF Skinner and click-button-receive-bacon rewards but round story telling and community.

why, if people didn't spend hours grinding away pointlessly for the next shiny, the entire economic model would collapse. Companies like Zynga and Blizzard have largely built their entire corporate mindset around "get them addicted" rather than "get them involved," sometimes to truly terrifying levels.

Just imagine if tomorrow Blizzard announced that on Nov 1, WoW would cease to function. sure there would be wailing and gnashing of teeth, but a year on, would anyone much care? (and yes it is public knowledge that WoW seems to have crested and is starting to hemorrhage subscribers) would a lot of people still be trying to create "the spiritual successor to the Warcraft community" or trying to generate private wow-crack servers? would there be "Orcin Icon" to let you run around deserted Warcraft zones in costume and summon night elves to party with?

That's why NCSoft axed CoH, IMhO.... because it stuck out like a sore thumb in a world of grindfest money machines that required no investment beyond new shinies every six months to keep people paying into it.

and yes, I am drawing hyperbole, but only to serve as exemplar.
yeah.

But I heard there are already WoW private servers.

LaughingAlex

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2013, 11:40:32 PM »
From everything I read I agree.  Honestly I've felt more powerful in CoX then I did in CO or guild wars, because both of those games they make the logic that your just a little peice of some team or army, not an actual force that by yourself actually makes a difference.  Alot of mmo's just don't have any kind of real force multipliers, if anything CoX was actually somewhat "realistic" in the terms of force of power; it had force multipliers, something MMO's never have.  Five players in most games is really just equal to five players, if they take on something requiring a sixth person the die badly.  In CoX however buffs/debuffs and crowd control were so effective that 2 defenders/corruptors being among those 5 players could easily make it seem like the team has 10-20 people in it or more then that.  The buffs/debuffs and crowd control to me gave the game a layer of depth you don't see in most mmo's; where its down to "if you fail to bring X you automatically lose", CoX a losing team was more due to general incompetence and not making any use of any force multipliers(and every archtype had them to some extent or another).

I also miss the content, and how the enemies ranked up in CoX.  More and more I find myself feeling unchallenged in CO, when something is difficult however it's only due to fake difficulty of the game mobs having something that has no counter to it.  In CoX however, every villain group had it's strengths and weaknesses, and their counters to them.  Malta operatives may have had holds/stuns and end-draining, they were vulnerable to confusion, and even more vulnerable to crowd control themselves.  The Cimerorans may have had -defense debuffs, but they were mostly limited to melee, and they had long cooldowns, making them especially vulnerable to -recharge debuffs.  Nemesis may have had resistances to crowd control but they could still be debuffed into oblivion.  Just three examples. 

In CO however?  LEts see, I go into a lair, the mobs have knockbacks that ignore the knockback rule of 3 knocks = immunity, so I get juggled around as if i'm playing mortal kombat.  I don't even get to attack in those periods and can get killed easily even if I'm bringing an otherwise especially enduring build.  The anderthal map likewise also has nothing but tedious tanks to fight, that gets worst with the end fight having, also, endless uncounterable knocks into lava(due to blocks not really stopping kb anymore, and the lack of +kb resistance gear in the game currently).  Holds in alerts also last ludicrous amounts of time and the counter to them, blocking them, doesn't work like it used to.  And cryptic is NERFING level 40 players in alerts by cutting their damage in half now(and trying to veinly buff lower level players, which has already been tested to not work).  I still play the game but there are alot of periods of just fake difficulty creeping in due to neglegence.  I hope they finally begin to wake up soon about the content problem and the lack of powerset balance and the sore lack of support(which just as well be nothing but healing, since there are so few powers for crowd control that work, if at all, and only a few buffs that are usefull, with almost no major debuffs in the game).
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TinToySoldier

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2013, 11:53:50 PM »
Really quick!  I agree with everything thats been said so far.  I just want to add one thing that is small, but is annoying when playing other games.  I like being able to jump!  Just a regular jump.  Over a rock... Onto a chair...  It felt good to jump in CoX.

Why can't I jump in a lot of games?

silvers1

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2013, 11:57:13 PM »
I agree with most of the points here.  A couple more:

1.  A feeling that your character became more powerful relative to even level mobs as you gained in level.  I have not experienced that in any other
MMORPG, and I've played quite a few.

2.  No focus on loot, loot, and more loot. Yes, you could trick out your character with IOs, but it wasnt really needed.  So tired of "gear scores"
and "damage meters" in other games.

3.  The integral design feature of this game -   combinations of archtypes and powersets make you more powerful than any character alone.
Buffs/Debuffs made the game rock.  I never felt like any group was the same, every PUG felt completely different. 

4.  No DPS/Tank/Healer trinity needed.  You could put 8 of anything together and do just fine.

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ukaserex

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2013, 01:51:12 AM »
Although I don't necessarily disagree with any items in any of the lists above, for me, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

As much as I hate to admit it now, the best part for me was the ability to simply monitor the different chat channels and participate in certain discussions. Sometimes just watching what people were talking about was so riveting, I'd have to use a rez because I was paying more attention to what @Bloodwynd was saying and then what @NYC would say and so on, etc.

Reading the forums, seeing names and reading what they had to say, and then by chance running into them in game and putting a pixelated face to the name.
Hah! I recall forming an MoUGT and "One who overuses emoticons" joined the iTrial. I contemplated not inviting this party, but curiosity got the best of me. Despite AFK and being out of position at certain points (UGT can be a lengthy trial, so I tolerated that a bit more than I would in a different iTrial) the competence of play was there, as was what in football we called "Positional Awareness". Some people have two monitors, or really huge ones, which allow them to see so much more than the rest of us with a simply 17 inch monitor. Some can type a gazillion words per minute and don't need 8 trays of macros covering up their screen, lol.

I miss the stupid need to trade inf with @piggybank on one server to get the same amount back on another, less a gratuity. Heh, that amount used to be just 2 million inf, lol.

But hey, I have my wits about me (well, I'm half right about that anyway) and with them are the memories.
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Nealix

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2013, 02:14:07 AM »
I play CO now but really only because I need my hero fix and a creative outlet for character creation.  Its a lot easier to level in CO and I mostly solo except for alerts (I like to get the First Responder title).  There isn't much of an end game.  The nemesis system is interesting.  The character creator is as good or arguably better, as it has a few more slots to fill, which is no surprise from the same game company.  There are powers in CO you can't get in other games but not nearly as many.  I like the power armor, boomerang, air and sorcery powers (though sorcery seems to be a bit harder for me to survive at) which CoH didn't have but overall I feel much more stunted on character creation  (not looks but overall concept).

Some of the things I don't like about CO are feeling your powers are getting less effective as you level compared to your enemy power level, the lack of regular content updates and lockboxes.  Lockboxes are the devil!  There are other things that bother me about CO but really all it does is make me miss CoH.

One more thing I should have added to my list is auras.  I loved the auras in CoH.  In CO you pretty much can only get them attached to a travel or other type of power.

Triplash

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2013, 02:21:05 AM »
I like being able to jump!  Just a regular jump.  Over a rock... Onto a chair...  It felt good to jump in CoX.

Why can't I jump in a lot of games?

I know right?

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Blondeshell

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2013, 03:53:38 AM »

Xieveral

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2013, 04:03:18 AM »
I could be a villain.
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General Idiot

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2013, 05:41:25 AM »
For me, it was partly the overwhelming amount of customisation, partly the social mechanics (Super sidekicking and eight man teams are things every game should have) and partly the way they balanced the game - everything was overpowered. Everything. Which really helped get the feel of playing a superhero instead of playing random adventurer #643879.

srmalloy

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2013, 03:03:52 PM »
1.  A feeling that your character became more powerful relative to even level mobs as you gained in level.  I have not experienced that in any other
MMORPG, and I've played quite a few.

To be fair, it wasn't really until NCSoft bought out Cryptic and formed NC NorCal/Paragon Studios that the game started changing for this; Jack Emmert's 'vision' that ruled the early issues of the game was based heavily around the "3 minions = 1 hero" concept, and his idea that "fun" meant going up against the end boss again and again and again, getting defeated each time, until you found the one tactic that would work against them. That was one of the changes that was made after Paragon Studios took over development on the game.

Kaiser Tarantula

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2013, 04:28:12 PM »
What made me love CoH more than other games?

Sidekicking that actually worked.  You could play with friends regardless of their level and do something productive with them.  The scaling system was great - you retained a few advantages from being a higher level character when exemping, and a sidekicked lowbie wasn't so gimped that they were completely useless unless the original level difference between them is ridiculous (like sidekicking a level 5 character up to the level cap).  Not even Champions Online, the closest game to CoH in both execution and aesthetics, pulls this off.  Exemping down makes you gimpy compared to an appropriately-levelled character, while sidekicking up leaves you without the tools you need to be effective in a party since powers are so few and far between.

Death Mechanics that were severe enough to want to avoid them, but weren't gimp-inducing or frustrating.  Experience debt cuts your experience earned, but working it off was rewarding because there's badges for doing so.  You could even pre-emptively clear debt by building up a stock of Patrol Experience as a buffer.  Sometimes, it was even advantageous to level slower - mostly to avoid missing content due to levelling too fast.  On that note...

Content that I wanted to see to completion.  No game has ever engaged me in the lore of its world like CoH has.  The characters have personality, the missions themselves were fun, fetchquests and kill-quests weren't the order-of-the-day, and there were ongoing story arcs everywhere.  Almost every contact had a story arc.  To date, CoH is the only game where I've avoided levelling in order to see all the game has to offer.

I felt Powerful.  In CoH, common grunt soldiers and the like eventually give way to super-powered elite enemies, minor monsters, the living dead, and more exotic things.  You aren't fighting gangs and soldiers from first level to last.  There wa a progression - even within the same enemy group, the more exotic and dangerous forms of enemy wouldn't appear at lower levels.  For instance, the Circle of Thorns.  At low levels, you see knife-wielding cultists and occasionally minor magi.  At high-levels, you face a non-stop flood of powerful mages, fiery behemoth-demons, and demonic ghosts.  Even the lowly Hellions - their lowest ranks are ordinary thugs, while the higher ranks feature actual demons and gangers endowed with hellfire.

There was no need for Gear.  Enhancements drop from everything, and even-levelled enhancements can be combined up to higher values.  You didn't have to farm rare bosses for gear.  You didn't have to kill specific enemies for drops.  You could make a perfectly playable and acceptable character fighting nothing but minions and lieutenants from first level to last.  Yet, if you wanted to trick out your character for extra advantages and neat little perks, you had the option of doing so via the invention system.

Everyone got their own Loot.  No squabbling over who-gets-what drop.  You do the work, you choose your reward, you walk away happy.  No MMO I've ever played has ever been so generous.

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2013, 05:03:32 PM »

Everyone got their own Loot.  No squabbling over who-gets-what drop.  You do the work, you choose your reward, you walk away happy.  No MMO I've ever played has ever been so generous.

Yeah this is another system among many that I liked overall. Nothing worse than having to get into a near pvp match over a piece of gear.

Although it was slightly annoying to continiously do the same work and missions as the next team mate but they get the good stuff while I'm stuck with Pacing the Turtle as the highlight of my day. I do think it should have been more standardize instead of Casino game based, but overall one of the best drop systems I ever came across that is for sure.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2013, 09:14:26 PM by JaguarX »

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2013, 06:11:40 PM »
Simply because...Other MMOs have all the ingredients..But never in the right quantities.

Making a MMO is like making a gourmet 4-course meal: Everything must be the right quality, in the right order, in the right quantities, presented at the right time, for it to be a masterpiece...City of Heroes was that. If City of Heroes was a main dish, Gordon Ramsay would have been proud to feature it on his cooking show.
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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2013, 06:17:08 PM »
What made me love CoH more than other games?

Everyone got their own Loot.  No squabbling over who-gets-what drop.  You do the work, you choose your reward, you walk away happy.  No MMO I've ever played has ever been so generous.

This....so very this. I remember being ecstatic when I finally got that last bunch of Incarnate Threads that I needed to finish off that next tier of incarnate power...Then you got that sobering effect of being back at the bottom of the mountain looking up at the top when you opened up your incarnate power trees and saw exactly what you needed to do to continue to progress...exponential growth.
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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2013, 09:20:54 PM »
Hmm. a list of likes.  I'll start with the OP's.

CoH was the primary MMO I played until it was closed down.  I started playing in beta and continued all through its life cycle.  I tried other games like CO and DCUO but they just didn't spark as well with me.  Why did I find CoH superior?  Let me count the ways:

I started about i6 time.

Quote
1. CoH had more powers than any other superhero MMO.

Dunno. Haven't played CO in free-to-play mode enough to find out.

Quote
2. Villains.  You could play an actual villain in CoH.  Where else can you actually do that?  Not only could you play a villain but you could reform to a hero or have a hero go bad.

Except for a couple arcs and mayhems, the villainy felt hollow; it was more like you were a bully for the establishment than a real villain.  You didn't have any personal goals, except to toady up to Arachnos.  I wanted to acquire wealth (virtual represented by briefcases full of cash, art works, supercars, precious gems) as one goal of a villain; they could have used the under-used souvenir system for that.

Quote
4. Incarnate trials.  I played them so much with my level 50 characters.  They were like raids in Everquest (which was my main game before CoH) only not so long and tedious.

I hate raids, no matter the game.

Quote
5. Enhancements.  I miss all those special enhancements you could get to give your character additional abilities like defense, recharge time reduction or health and endurance increases.  They really helped you make your high level characters feel more powerful.

I like the IO system, but it didn't do all that was promised.  For example, I was looking forward to having a hold on my blaster based on a hold IO, and the procs weren't what I was looking for.
Perhaps having procs that added together in one power, say 1 = 20% (or whatever percentage it was), and slotting additional ones increased the percentage, say: 2x = 50%, 3x = 80%. This might have made those minor damage attacks worth slotting for them, effectively changing the power from an attack power to an attack & hold power.

Quote
6. The music.  I miss zipping around Paragon city with my own personal sound track.  It resonated with me more than any other game currently available.

I quickly turned off the repetitive noise.

Quote
7. New content.  Since Freedom there was so much more content released.  I didn't even mind paying for the costumes and powers I didn't get as a subscriber.

It didn't seem that that much more was added than before. And, they REMOVED content: the starting arcs and their original maps for the last mission.  Yeah, not the most excting arcs, but I rather do them again then repeat that new first one again and again and again.  Instead, I started street sweeping the first 3-4 levels with every new character, then maybe join DFB (or vice-versa).

Quote
9.  The community.  Never before and never since have I played a game that had so many great people in it always willing to help each other out.  I still play MMO's but there are just so many games where the jerks outnumber the good folks.

Ah yes, the touted community.  It really wasn't all that.  It is probably better than other games, but COH's community had its share of jerks, elite cliques, and SGs ruled by control freaks.


Now, for a few of my own.

As a ranged attacker, I never liked having two powers that did the same thing, except for difference in damage level.  I have no problem spamming the main attack power.  The other one was a waste of a power slot.  If it did something different, say the range was longer for the less damaging attack, or took a LOT less END, than it would be fine.  Or, as I mentioned with IOs, it could be made to BE different.

As for CO, I hate the Endurance building game mechanic.  Is this some standard way of doing things in other MMOs?

(sigh.. age.. after writing the above I forgot what else I was going to say.. guess will add later. .. there's no "old" emoticon?  about time one was made? old man face:  >:( )

PunkusJR

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #30 on: August 13, 2013, 09:35:23 PM »
the lack of regular content updates and lockboxes.  Lockboxes are the devil! 

I started playing Champions about when these were introduced. And then they announce the vehicles and I got excited, and reasonably so. But when those came out it was buy them, or open lock boxes for them, and if you wanted to have a good vehicle you had to go for the lock box or buy it from another player. I've heard there are some new comic missions you can do for free, so I might pull a friend in to play though those, but things like lock boxes are what severely kill most MMOs for me including champions.

I hate pay to win stuff. It was kind of there in city (Where you could buy IOs) but not to the extent other MMOs have. I can't remember what it was called, but I remember a ftp one where the buyable gear was literally just higher level equipment with lower level requirements. I hate this sort of thing with a passion. Buyable stuff shouldn't be a way to gain power. When City went free to play it was done right. The new powersets weren't completely OP, they were just different and new.

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #31 on: August 13, 2013, 09:43:38 PM »
I don't have much issue with lockboxes; it's what helps make the game free to play.  I played STO, both my Federation and Klingon characters made it to maximum level without them.  Yeah, I cannot get the new shinies, but then I'm not interested in playing any Ferengi or Cardassion characters or fly their ships.  In CO, I haven't felt any need for them, either, although I've only gotten to level 21 so far (and deleted that character, now level 19 is max at the moment).

GamingGlen

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #32 on: August 14, 2013, 01:08:59 AM »
Ragdoll physics. 

I miss them so much now while playing CO as the mobs in CO just fall over in the same way each time (or the robots explode into dust).

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #33 on: August 14, 2013, 01:19:07 PM »
The costume creator! Missions you could finish in 15mins. Powers not locked to archtype. Not having to run all over creation and still accomplishing nothing and you just spent hours doing that. Not pvp centric. City of Heroes is the best game ever! :)

doc7924

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #34 on: August 14, 2013, 08:04:02 PM »
Agree with all except the villain part.

Even playing COV I hardly felt like a villain. The early stages maybe, but besides bank jobs you mostly always fought other villain groups.

And a lot of times the same groups you fight as a hero.

srmalloy

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #35 on: August 15, 2013, 05:29:46 PM »
Even playing COV I hardly felt like a villain. The early stages maybe, but besides bank jobs you mostly always fought other villain groups.

Only the newspaper missions gave you any semblance of working for yourself; all the contact missions leave you feeling like a contract legbreaker for someone else.

It would have been more difficult to completely rework the contact aspect of the game so that as you defeated mobs, you would occasionally get a random clue, which you would be able to investigate. As a noob villain, your options for investigation would be limited -- newspaper, library, Internet -- and the different types of research could either result in a mission lead or a contact. A mission lead would result in another clue to be investigated; a contact would give you a mission and become an additional resource you could use for investigation -- for a clue in a mission arc associated with that contact, they would be able to take a clue that you'd gotten from a previous mission and 'figure out' where the clue led (feeding you the next mission in the arc); for a clue from another contact's arc, they would point you to whichever of your existing contacts the mission arc belonged to, or possibly suggest a new contact (i.e, a contact who had information on the Circle of Thorns in the 6-10 range might admit that he doesn't have deep enough information on them to help you, but that this other guy he knows has done more investigation, and feed you to him for the 11-16 range, and so on).

This preserves most of the 'interacting with your contacts to get missions', but turns the way it's described in game terms around, so that it's the character that finds the original clues to story arcs and then develops the story arc themselves by investigating the clues, working through the contacts they acquire as a resource that the character has, not with the character being a resource the contact uses to do things for them. And there could also be various kinds of one-shot contacts, where the character could be directed to another NPC, or (harder to do) be approached by the NPC for a conversation where they've got a lead on something that they think the character might be interested in, but they've got this problem that they need help with; this would give a mission to take care of the contact's problem, after which the contact would give out a second mission that gives bigger rewards -- a temporary power, an item of rare salvage, an otherwise-useless item that can be fenced for a sizeable amount, or the like. Once the character completes the initial 'favor' mission and gets the mission lead, the NPC disappears, their problem having been addressed.

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2013, 06:56:52 PM »
Villain side might have been perfect but it was the best that had been done up to then (an perhaps since).  Besides this is a thread about what you liked about CoH, not what you didn't like that someone else did.  Lets look at that glass as half full!

GamingGlen

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2013, 07:41:00 PM »
How about we look at the whole glass, and not just the happy carefree nothing-is-wrong part? 

Time for a little rant:

I'm so sick of the avoid-negativity aspect today. Facebook does it a lot.  Want to remove a friend?  It's three options deep in small print at the bottom of the screen/window.  But they sure give you several ways to add them with large buttons and windows.  Same way goes for apps: easy to add, a little more difficult to remove.

And the CORP channel on CO: you can't say anything negative at all, no matter how slight or if meant to be in jest (even with emoticons and context that shows it was meant to be a tease).

Okay, I feel better now.  Thanks for listening (if you did).

Nealix

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2013, 09:04:42 PM »
Someone needs some milk and cookies! lol

GamingGlen

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #39 on: August 17, 2013, 03:24:09 AM »
Someone needs some milk and cookies! lol

Yes, yes I do.   8)

Sorry about the rant.

JWBullfrog

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2013, 01:16:43 PM »
My two cents ( for all they are worth, allowing for inflation)
 
CoH worked.
 
Sure it had it's flaws and odd patches. But, by and large, it worked. Not only did it work mechanically (as I expect all published games to do) but it worked for the players as well.
 
In the six years I played the game I saw every possible character idea wander through the city. Cowboys, Knights, Pirates, Shinigami, Magical Girls, Soldiers, Saints, Savants, Aliens, Mutants, Madmen, six foot Pink Bunnies... and absolutely none of them felt foreign to the game. All of those wildly disperate ideas fit together in a way I havent seen any other game match.
 
I saw a community that was (and is) one of the most tolerant and open in gaming. It was a community that, on the whole, accepted every playstyle, every character quirk, newbies and veterans. We didn't care as long as people didn't break the unspoken rule of 'live and let live.'
 
I've yet to find another game where characters stand in the same position for hours because the people behind them are just...talking. If you wanted to hammer away at a TF for the 500th time, it was cool, you could find someone to join you easily enough, but if you just wanted to talk, Atlas Park and Pocket D were always there.
 
I could fly. Or run, or Teleport, Or leap tall buildings, or be a Coyote or a ninja to get around.
 
Our city was beautiful. It had a vibrancy all it's own. It was alive in a way that few other games match. The city was a character all by itself, not just a place to sell stuff.
 
It all worked.
As long as somebody keeps making up stories for it, the City isn't gone.

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2013, 05:44:34 PM »
My two cents ( for all they are worth, allowing for inflation)
 
CoH worked.

<snip snip snippity snip>

This post right here.  YES.
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JaguarX

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2013, 05:54:50 PM »
My two cents ( for all they are worth, allowing for inflation)
 
CoH worked.
 
Sure it had it's flaws and odd patches. But, by and large, it worked. Not only did it work mechanically (as I expect all published games to do) but it worked for the players as well.
 


+1 this for sure.



Although the downside, it worked so well for that particular kind of player, now that it's gone, it will be hard to recreate that random magic, and two in the meantime, there isn't a replacement.

The average WoW player can jump from fantasy game to fantasy game and probably will never run out of games within a lifetime. (Guess)

COX players and what they come to expect in a game, COX was it. Besides COX coming back in it's past form, although I doubt it will stay that way due to dev difference and vision difference that vary among devs (i.e look at how much the game changed and vision changed between when States was in charge and when Posi was in charge and they worked together for a long time. Imagine devs that never worked on COX before let alone played it.), but hopefully the successors out of the three will be close in some manner that ideally all COX players can find what they are looking for more closely within those three choices (of course there is DC, CO, and Marvel for some that set up shop there already and found what they are looking for that may add the future count up to six).

And of course this not including any emulator, private server or what ever name is assigned that may or may not be in the works as the idea flip flops between being there is one to "oh we are not working on one. I know of no such thing." depending on the situation and one of those things that cant even be counted until it shows up.

corvus1970

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #43 on: August 20, 2013, 06:30:17 PM »
My two cents ( for all they are worth, allowing for inflation)
 
CoH worked.
 
Sure it had it's flaws and odd patches. But, by and large, it worked. Not only did it work mechanically (as I expect all published games to do) but it worked for the players as well.
 
In the six years I played the game I saw every possible character idea wander through the city. Cowboys, Knights, Pirates, Shinigami, Magical Girls, Soldiers, Saints, Savants, Aliens, Mutants, Madmen, six foot Pink Bunnies... and absolutely none of them felt foreign to the game. All of those wildly disperate ideas fit together in a way I havent seen any other game match.
 
I saw a community that was (and is) one of the most tolerant and open in gaming. It was a community that, on the whole, accepted every playstyle, every character quirk, newbies and veterans. We didn't care as long as people didn't break the unspoken rule of 'live and let live.'
 
I've yet to find another game where characters stand in the same position for hours because the people behind them are just...talking. If you wanted to hammer away at a TF for the 500th time, it was cool, you could find someone to join you easily enough, but if you just wanted to talk, Atlas Park and Pocket D were always there.
 
I could fly. Or run, or Teleport, Or leap tall buildings, or be a Coyote or a ninja to get around.
 
Our city was beautiful. It had a vibrancy all it's own. It was alive in a way that few other games match. The city was a character all by itself, not just a place to sell stuff.
 
It all worked.
While I agree with the OP itself, THIS post right here really sums up my experience.

COH just worked for me. It clicked right-away from go, and just got better as it went along, especially after Paragon Studios took over.  And even after playing over 7 years, I still had a lot of new experiences to enjoy because of the depth of content.

COH felt good, it felt right. It was a world that I could immerse myself in and thoroughly enjoy. And enjoy it I did up until the end.

I really miss COH.
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Eoraptor

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #44 on: August 20, 2013, 06:42:29 PM »
+1 this for sure.



Although the downside, it worked so well for that particular kind of player, now that it's gone, it will be hard to recreate that random magic, and two in the meantime, there isn't a replacement.

The average WoW player can jump from fantasy game to fantasy game and probably will never run out of games within a lifetime. (Guess)

COX players and what they come to expect in a game, COX was it. Besides COX coming back in it's past form, although I doubt it will stay that way due to dev difference and vision difference that vary among devs (i.e look at how much the game changed and vision changed between when States was in charge and when Posi was in charge and they worked together for a long time. Imagine devs that never worked on COX before let alone played it.), but hopefully the successors out of the three will be close in some manner that ideally all COX players can find what they are looking for more closely within those three choices (of course there is DC, CO, and Marvel for some that set up shop there already and found what they are looking for that may add the future count up to six).

And of course this not including any emulator, private server or what ever name is assigned that may or may not be in the works as the idea flip flops between being there is one to "oh we are not working on one. I know of no such thing." depending on the situation and one of those things that cant even be counted until it shows up.

I wouldn't go this far. I would not say that there can never again be a City of Heroes or that it was a fluke of time, place, and circumstance. I think the game worked because it worked. And it worked because great care was taken with it. All the pieces (or 90% of them) dovetailed smoothly into each other. The Auction system was a part of the narrative, with ubiquitous Wentworth's all over the world where you could go and buy/sell. The crafting system likewise was centered around a grande old college in the heart of the city that said "hey here is where we come to learn and experiment" The alignment system made sense, and gave you story-based choices about how or why you might change sides (such as when you're fist given the choice to arrest a mobster or burn his ass alive). AE my have been a farm, but it was a farm which was rooted in the game's mythos and one which allowed you unlimited creativity. The teaming mechanic worked because it allowed you to play with friends and meet people even if you were a lowly lvl5 and they an incarnated 50+3 and it did so both through mechanics, and through the idea of telling you you would be mentor or a sidekick. And most importantly of all, the game was open form. From the costumes to the contacts you could choose how and where you wanted to play, not be herded from one zone to the next following one or two rigid story lines.

It could easily be made to happen again. The problem is, most game developers don't want to put in that level of effort. In fact, they've gone to great pains to actively train their players to not want it either. We call it the grind, but it's more than that; its a carefully laid out mechanic on getting someone addicted to button clicking rather than getting them involved in a story. As you say... if they shut down Wow on Nov1, everyone would go and find the next Swords-and-Sorcery epic to grind away in. But a year later here we all are, kvetching about our lost home and fighting hard on numerous fronts to resurrect it.
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corvus1970

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #45 on: August 20, 2013, 07:00:29 PM »
Well said, Eoraptor.
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healix

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #46 on: August 20, 2013, 07:30:51 PM »
No other online game has given me the desire to invest my time and feelings like CoH. I tried other 'similar' things, but nothing will replace it. 'but it's just a game!'........yah, right.
Listen to the 'mustn'ts'. Listen to the 'don'ts'. Listen to the 'shouldn'ts', the 'impossibles', the 'won'ts'. Listen to the 'you'll never haves', then listen close to me... Anything can happen . Anything can be.

JaguarX

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #47 on: August 20, 2013, 10:27:29 PM »

It could easily be made to happen again. The problem is, most game developers don't want to put in that level of effort. In fact, they've gone to great pains to actively train their players to not want it either. We call it the grind, but it's more than that; its a carefully laid out mechanic on getting someone addicted to button clicking rather than getting them involved in a story. As you say... if they shut down Wow on Nov1, everyone would go and find the next Swords-and-Sorcery epic to grind away in. But a year later here we all are, kvetching about our lost home and fighting hard on numerous fronts to resurrect it.

Yup. I possibly could, but business wise there havent been a major success that demostrates that the method actually works while there is many success with the old grind thing.

Now many people say the yhate grind dont want grind, just as many people say they dont want Bieber. Yet, both sale in great numbers. The business runners are probably not actually listening and fishing forums and boards and video game online mags to find out opinion. They probably looking at numbers. They see  "Hey grind game- 2 million plus players.  Hey game with no grind and cool looking stuff but it only got 150,000 people. Well guess what the next game is going to be? Grind!" I think more people actually like thegrind stuff and being "led" down specific paths than we realize. Look at the complaints with freeform and about the freedom of choice in powers it gives people that CO catches which is potentially more freedom of choice than ATs of COX was. Yet many here are uncnfortable with it. And probably the same feeling with people that like grind look at COX, which we over all see as a good thing.

All it will take is one good one with COX features to break that 1-2 million mark and every other game will be made just like it within the next 5-10 years after.

I think COX was good but shot itself in the foot. Most people didnt even know it existed until after it got closed. And unfortunately that means people that know about the closing didnt get to play and may hear about the features but then go and say, well it didnt help the game any. Note to self do not do what COX did. Even though we know it was a lot deeper than that. To most other people it's another game that wasnt making enough money and got shut down. It was plenty if NCSOFT was an indie studio (which in hindsight I wish COX was made by an indie studio and stayed on the indie studio ownership.) but for major corporation where they are used to and aiming for at least 250,000-300,000 min. subs, it was pennies and stuck around until they was ready to do some trimming, and the pennies always go first even if it really dont save anything it's about image. It looks like they are doing something to cut back. It seems to be the way of the world. Get a man in a suit and people will believe them compared to someone sayign the same thign that may look a bit dissheveled. Appearance is nearly everything these days. Even with the closing. Look at the conclusions made and NCSOFT didnt even give much reason one way or another. But people got angry and quick to make up their own reasons and went with the appearance that it was some corporate suit sitting in a comfy chair smoking a cigar laughing at the pain and anguish he chose to cause that day by shutting down the game because he didnt like American players and want to see them crushed.

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #48 on: August 20, 2013, 11:23:43 PM »
There are people I talk with, who admit they never got to play CoX, but wanted to, and still want to try it out if it did get on it's feet again.  There are those who cry it'd be to hard from what CoX players say(thats mostly on the basis of healing being not so useful and mob damage being high, but it also may be that CO players expect "I WIN AUTOMTICALLY' gameplay that CO has, yes I think that of CO players cause thats how some of them talk), but honestly CoX, it had that feeling of "just right" in terms of difficulty and making you feel important in the game world.  In CO your mary sue, litterally, because the developers made it almost impossible to lose on normal, and even elite mode most content can be beaten, and there isnt enough of an increase in reward on elite anymore.  In CO the entire thing is YOU YOU YOU, and the difficulty reflects it, theres no challenge.

CoX yeah, you were challenged, alot, but the world didn't center around you.  There were moments of failure, such as sister psyche getting killed, due to you, the player, not seeing everything, but that is story telling.  In CO instead, sister psyche and statesman would have won and the whole evil thing wouldn't have happened at all, and no consequences would have occurred.  I can't say CoX had the best story at times but still I feel it was better then CO and everything always centering on you a little to much.  Of course I constantly hear of DC online's bad habit of doing the opposite; making you at best Robins sidekick.

And CoX as I've said many, many times, it's support mechanics worked better then other mmo's cause they allowed so many different strategies.  CO just doesn't allow for that.
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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #49 on: August 21, 2013, 04:49:03 PM »
The problem is, most game developers don't want to put in that level of effort.

One big example I always use: In any MMO, eventually you're going to die for some reason or other. In CoH, you respawned at a hospital (Or SG base), and there was lore and everything regarding the mediporters that accomplished the task. Later in the game's life they were even involved in a story arc. In almost any other game I've played though, it's almost never explained how and why you can respawn. Champions is especially notable in that there's just random respawn points in conceptually nonsensical places half the time where you just poof back into existence for no reason at all.

That to me is a big part of what made CoH great. Everything made sense and fit into the world. Heroes could respawn not just because game mechanics demanded it be possible, but because someone reverse engineered Rikti technology to make it possible.

srmalloy

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #50 on: August 21, 2013, 05:58:30 PM »
The average WoW player can jump from fantasy game to fantasy game and probably will never run out of games within a lifetime. (Guess)

...and never have to learn any play styles beyond the "holy trinity" of tank/dps/heal and the requirement of having the right mix of each in a group...

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #51 on: August 21, 2013, 06:04:18 PM »
There are people I talk with, who admit they never got to play CoX, but wanted to, and still want to try it out if it did get on it's feet again.  There are those who cry it'd be to hard from what CoX players say(thats mostly on the basis of healing being not so useful and mob damage being high, but it also may be that CO players expect "I WIN AUTOMTICALLY' gameplay that CO has, yes I think that of CO players cause thats how some of them talk), but honestly CoX, it had that feeling of "just right" in terms of difficulty and making you feel important in the game world.  In CO your mary sue, litterally, because the developers made it almost impossible to lose on normal, and even elite mode most content can be beaten, and there isnt enough of an increase in reward on elite anymore.  In CO the entire thing is YOU YOU YOU, and the difficulty reflects it, theres no challenge.

CoX yeah, you were challenged, alot, but the world didn't center around you.  There were moments of failure, such as sister psyche getting killed, due to you, the player, not seeing everything, but that is story telling.  In CO instead, sister psyche and statesman would have won and the whole evil thing wouldn't have happened at all, and no consequences would have occurred.  I can't say CoX had the best story at times but still I feel it was better then CO and everything always centering on you a little to much.  Of course I constantly hear of DC online's bad habit of doing the opposite; making you at best Robins sidekick.

And CoX as I've said many, many times, it's support mechanics worked better then other mmo's cause they allowed so many different strategies.  CO just doesn't allow for that.

yeah, but I wished that COX centered around the player a little bit more. It seemed like the player was an errand boy/gal for the big dogs and doing other's bidding and or unfolding the contact's story while playing a bit part. Then when it did focus on player's actions, later in the Story Arc set, things always seemed to end up bungled up anyways as if "well hell, I was better off doing nothing at all if they are goign to die anyways." On the other hand Co do have the Vibora bay arc where the play inadvertantly causes the "end of the world" and have to fix it and free Dr Destoyer so he can return and try to take over current MC and the alternative reality when he is finished with his home world (maybe in the future they will expand upon that).

I feel the opposite. I actually feel more powerful and important in CO than I did in COX. In COX, I felt like I was merely doing things for the most parts of the game that "conned gray" to the big dogs and couldnt be bothered with. A glorified sidekick.

On the same token, CO could use some work on the difficulty scaling. Keep normal as is, as it seems some are already complaining it's too hard with certain ATs and builds that make it difficult to play (even on this forum), but should actually make the upper level difficult levels more...well difficult. The drops for increased difficulty levels, well to me personally that dont matter as when I increase difficulty I'm usually doing it merely for the increased personal challenge. Some or rather many see differently, they want or need incentive to do the more difficult settings like better drops. Without it, they wotn do it, regardless if it was actually challenging or not. Just like some people dont team, even though they actually can when every they want and there is nothing stopping them, without either being forced by game mechanics or soem other incentive. Many of those same people speak that they want the freedom and teaming for comraderie and the good talk but when they have it they flip and say they wont do it because they are not forced into it or there isnt better drops. Which reveals that they dont want difficult material or team for comaderie, they want the goodies and expect the goods for doing so and will do the lowest difficulty for the most efficient means to get them, which if the drops rates is the same across the board they wont increase their difficulty or team even though they have the power and means already to do so whenever they please.

JaguarX

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #52 on: August 21, 2013, 06:06:22 PM »
...and never have to learn any play styles beyond the "holy trinity" of tank/dps/heal and the requirement of having the right mix of each in a group...
Of course. People overall seems to like familiar things. Look at how many people even here cant get into other games because it's not like COX and what they were used to getting and playing in COX.


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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #53 on: August 21, 2013, 06:50:44 PM »
I feel the opposite. I actually feel more powerful and important in CO than I did in COX. In COX, I felt like I was merely doing things for the most parts of the game that "conned gray" to the big dogs and couldnt be bothered with. A glorified sidekick.
Yeah, I don't agree with that personally, and never really felt that way. But as with all things, your mileage may vary.
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Eoraptor

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #54 on: August 21, 2013, 07:02:18 PM »
I agree with Corvus, in CO I feel like the cops are pancaking lazy and want me to do their jobs for them "go bust the mafia" for 15 freaking levels.
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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #55 on: August 22, 2013, 12:14:30 AM »
yeah, but I wished that COX centered around the player a little bit more. It seemed like the player was an errand boy/gal for the big dogs and doing other's bidding and or unfolding the contact's story while playing a bit part. Then when it did focus on player's actions, later in the Story Arc set, things always seemed to end up bungled up anyways as if "well hell, I was better off doing nothing at all if they are goign to die anyways." On the other hand Co do have the Vibora bay arc where the play inadvertantly causes the "end of the world" and have to fix it and free Dr Destoyer so he can return and try to take over current MC and the alternative reality when he is finished with his home world (maybe in the future they will expand upon that).

I feel the opposite. I actually feel more powerful and important in CO than I did in COX. In COX, I felt like I was merely doing things for the most parts of the game that "conned gray" to the big dogs and couldnt be bothered with. A glorified sidekick.

On the same token, CO could use some work on the difficulty scaling. Keep normal as is, as it seems some are already complaining it's too hard with certain ATs and builds that make it difficult to play (even on this forum), but should actually make the upper level difficult levels more...well difficult. The drops for increased difficulty levels, well to me personally that dont matter as when I increase difficulty I'm usually doing it merely for the increased personal challenge. Some or rather many see differently, they want or need incentive to do the more difficult settings like better drops. Without it, they wotn do it, regardless if it was actually challenging or not. Just like some people dont team, even though they actually can when every they want and there is nothing stopping them, without either being forced by game mechanics or soem other incentive. Many of those same people speak that they want the freedom and teaming for comraderie and the good talk but when they have it they flip and say they wont do it because they are not forced into it or there isnt better drops. Which reveals that they dont want difficult material or team for comaderie, they want the goodies and expect the goods for doing so and will do the lowest difficulty for the most efficient means to get them, which if the drops rates is the same across the board they wont increase their difficulty or team even though they have the power and means already to do so whenever they please.

We were actually getting into the phase of player being the big dog right before COH shut down. The new signature story arc was about the Phalanx coming to US (the player) for help cause they lost some of their big guys and there were big problems happening. They NEEDED YOU cause they couldnt do it without you. Unfortunately we didnt get to see that line of story building come to fruition due to the shutdown :(

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #56 on: August 22, 2013, 12:57:00 AM »
Another thing that will haunt me!  I hate that there was so much content coming that we will now likely never see.  I was also really looking forward to air control.  After water blast I couldn't wait to see what they would do with air control.

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #57 on: August 22, 2013, 08:26:51 PM »
Corvus, are you the one who created those wonderful shiny icons that replaced the insp/power icons???
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corvus1970

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #58 on: August 23, 2013, 12:26:04 AM »
No, I was not. I've made some avatars and banners, but never any icons :)
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LaughingAlex

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #59 on: August 23, 2013, 01:07:03 AM »
We were actually getting into the phase of player being the big dog right before COH shut down. The new signature story arc was about the Phalanx coming to US (the player) for help cause they lost some of their big guys and there were big problems happening. They NEEDED YOU cause they couldnt do it without you. Unfortunately we didnt get to see that line of story building come to fruition due to the shutdown :(

I enjoyed that to.  My thoughts on it; CoH at the lower levels, yes you were the "glorified sidekick" because, well, your starting out and new, but even then, your still getting to save the world, as alot of story archs have you doing just that.  Like the missions in faultline(do ignore Penelope yins presence there a second), or the vahzilok missions you do in Skyway city, for example, both have you saving paragon city or even the world from nasty takeover.  But it balanced out; they knew you were a startup hero, not a veteran.  But as you got to higher and higher levels, so did the stakes in alot of area's(save the 30-40 range, but even that got fixed later in the games life).  In CO your the center of the world in day one practically, and I end up feeling like mary sue for it at times.  It doesn't have the same feel because, well, it's given to you, not earned.
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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #60 on: August 23, 2013, 02:09:49 AM »
I enjoyed that to.  My thoughts on it; CoH at the lower levels, yes you were the "glorified sidekick" because, well, your starting out and new, but even then, your still getting to save the world, as alot of story archs have you doing just that.  Like the missions in faultline(do ignore Penelope yins presence there a second), or the vahzilok missions you do in Skyway city, for example, both have you saving paragon city or even the world from nasty takeover.  But it balanced out; they knew you were a startup hero, not a veteran.  But as you got to higher and higher levels, so did the stakes in alot of area's(save the 30-40 range, but even that got fixed later in the games life).  In CO your the center of the world in day one practically, and I end up feeling like mary sue for it at times.  It doesn't have the same feel because, well, it's given to you, not earned.
exactly... the NPCs charging up to you and fawning all over you about the tutorial just... blech.  I much preferred the casual name drops used in CoH to the "OMG JUST THE WAY YOU DEFEATED THE Q'LAR!!!!"
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healix

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #61 on: August 23, 2013, 07:52:21 PM »
No, I was not. I've made some avatars and banners, but never any icons :)

I'm sorry, my brain did a vapor lock...I remembered today that the icons were created by Corva. I sure wish I could get those back to save in my CoH memorabilia. (Does anyone still have the zips for the enhancemants and insps? They were awesome!!!)
 
Listen to the 'mustn'ts'. Listen to the 'don'ts'. Listen to the 'shouldn'ts', the 'impossibles', the 'won'ts'. Listen to the 'you'll never haves', then listen close to me... Anything can happen . Anything can be.

corvus1970

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #62 on: August 24, 2013, 09:21:35 PM »
Well, considering the name similarity I'd say that was an easy mistake to make :)
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Blondeshell

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #63 on: August 25, 2013, 05:27:27 AM »
I'm sorry, my brain did a vapor lock...I remembered today that the icons were created by Corva. I sure wish I could get those back to save in my CoH memorabilia. (Does anyone still have the zips for the enhancemants and insps? They were awesome!!!)

Technically, they were created by Corva_NA, aka Basilikon, and you can get download links to them here. There's a slightly later version of the icon collection here, but I can't say for sure if that was the last update for either pack.

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #64 on: August 25, 2013, 06:14:11 AM »
I have two zip files in my Google Drive stuff. They may be what you want, but I'm not sure what version they are or where I got them: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BzbPxewaK5DgYmJicXRKVDhKNFk/edit?usp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BzbPxewaK5Dgd0NzZ1cybnJZanc/edit?usp=sharing
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healix

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #65 on: August 25, 2013, 08:36:02 AM »
Feldderburg, that second one is the both the power and insp icon textures for the game, and the first is the pics of them. Awesome that you saved those! Here's hoping they will be able to be used in the game again.  Blondshell, that site has both the power and insp-chiclet downloads! I am saving them in a file. Thank you so much.
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KingsGambit

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #66 on: November 18, 2013, 12:09:46 AM »
Hi all, I just signed up to the forum since I'm feeling a major pang months after CoV's closure. I love the idea of this thread and just wanted to contribute my own memories of a great game. I played from CoV on, I think Grandville/lvl 50 was around then and my first characters were a villains. Truth be told, I didn't like CoH as much. The zones weren't as good, I loathed those zones which lacked hospitals in particular. They were just too big and navigating with trains and zone exits was no where near as good as the ferries IMO.

Right now at this minute, I would dearly love to be able to log in and do an arc or a TF or something. So I'll settle for my favourite things about the game:

- My own memorable characters
I've played other MMOs and apart from a couple of them, I can barely remember most of my characters. They simply lacked personality, if such can be said. My CoV characters however all had unique and interesting identities. I usually stuck with colour schemes, but different costumes, they're biographies and power sets all came together to make each of them memorable. I miss those characters dearly.

- Sidekicking
Why other MMOs don't have this feature is quite simply beyond me. It is one of the greatest features of any MMO, bar none. The ability for us to play any character with any other character at any time, whilst remaining balanced and rewarding really does make me question why every single MMO doesn't allow it.

- Character Creator
It has to be mentioned. It was simply better than practically any other MMO including those released many years later. When considered alongside powersets, weapons, costume change emotes and so on, it allowed for truly wonderful creations.

- Instanced missions
There's a love or hate relationship with instancing and I'm firmly in the love category. One thing I loathe with a passion is having to find and kill 10 roaming miscreants in an open world area, with kill stealing, spawn camping, respawn timers and the rest. Instancing missions meant I always had my (or my team's) own zone which could be tackled at my pace.

There are so many more things to mention and all are equally memorable but the post is too long already. Just to give honorable mention to being able to have multiple characters with different roles to suit our moods, cool powers and the choice in how/when we acquired them, seamlessly integrated travel powers, cool vet rewards, the badges/accolades and an arcane "behind the scenes" number system :-)

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #67 on: November 18, 2013, 05:01:09 AM »
Welcome, KingsGambit! Being that you're newly-arrived, you might want to check under Multimedia, subheading Icon, to see how you can still create a CoX character, and run/fly around in the CoX maps. (The first couple of times might induce homesickness - they did, for me - but it gets enjoyable. :) ) Also, see the various Plan Z headings for news of the development progress of the various CoX successor projects. Keep your cape handy, pally; we're not licked yet. Also, if you play Champions, Star Trek or Neverwinter, there's a chat channel called CoX, where you can talk with your fellow refugees. Again, welcome!
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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #68 on: November 19, 2013, 10:11:18 AM »
There were really only two other options.  And while I liked the basic gameplay better in both of the other options, CoH had better overall costume creation (despite ChO having a few options I liked more).  It offered far more character slots.  It had a better variety of largely more effective powers (especially when it came to controls, buffs, and debuffs, IMO) even if it was more restrictive than I'd prefer.  And I was hooked on their forums.

It was too equipment-focused, but that was common between all three, with DCUO being the worst in that regard for tying equipment up with costume options too much.  Endurance sucked.  And Incarnate abilities could have been better implemented.
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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #69 on: November 19, 2013, 01:58:25 PM »
It was the first.. It was the best.. It had the best community.. It eventually learned to listen to its players.. The devs engaged the community ACTIVELY... They gave the people what they asked for.. Powers by and large were good.. It was relatively simple to play for any age group.. I knew 9 year olds that played and people in their 60's that played.. It was very casual..You could play every day and do something and have fun.. whether it was gain a level.. do a task force.. have fun at a costume events.. RESPEC ( my favorite thing )...

The best thing to me about City of Heroes is that it could be for YOU whatever you wanted it to be...

Stone Daemon

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #70 on: November 19, 2013, 09:21:16 PM »
It was one of the few games that didn't impose unnecessary slow traveling (or paid travel) on players. I don't want to slog through a zone under fire from random mobs just to reach the rest of my team.

It was one of the few that had interesting and involved missions. No forced "Kill X number of baddies" ad nauseam.

There were almost no restrictions on who you could team with (even the villain/hero gap was being done away with to an extent).

These are three of the things I look for in any new MMO I try out. They have all failed me to some degree.

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #71 on: November 20, 2013, 04:57:04 PM »
Great points, Stone Daemon! In the early years, travel was a bit more deliberate, as the tram network was less extensive, etc., but the travel powers worked so well (even if you didn't get them until lvl14) that getting around was still pretty painless. Prior to lvl14, things could get tricky (getting to the Icon at the far end of Steel Canyon, for example), but I personally loved the challenge.

Want an example of a game in which getting places is sheer tedium? Look no further than TOR. You spend more time running around than you do anything else, especially on a new planet on which you haven't got the speeder locations mapped yet. Fail.

No other MMO comes close in terms of teaming flexibility (although level-less TSW comes pretty close). The refinements to the sidekick/exemplar system resulted in the hands-down best system I've ever seen for team making. Whatever characters your friends felt like playing for any given session, you could make it work.

And yes, only a handful of MMOs have managed to have such involved and well-written missions as CoX. There's good stuff in TSW, but the extensive use of voiceovers and the "pick from a menu" response trees tend to lock your character in to a narrow range of choices in terms of character development. For roleplayers, it's annoyingly restrictive. CoX allowed exponentially greater flexibility in this area. Only TSW has better mission writing (but TSW is simply in another league in terms of overall writing, cutscenes, etc., from all other MMOs...it's that game's greatest strength).

As I've said elsewhere, other MMO studios have so much to learn from City...

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #72 on: November 21, 2013, 03:45:36 AM »
Great points, Stone Daemon! In the early years, travel was a bit more deliberate, as the tram network was less extensive, etc., but the travel powers worked so well (even if you didn't get them until lvl14) that getting around was still pretty painless. Prior to lvl14, things could get tricky (getting to the Icon at the far end of Steel Canyon, for example), but I personally loved the challenge.

I could have done with a wee bit less of the journey from the hospital in Atlas to mission doors in awkward spots in the Hollows, but that's the only time I really felt it overdid it.

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #73 on: November 21, 2013, 05:12:00 AM »
I got tired of running my level 6 toons through The Hollows, and getting the attention of reds and purples, pretty quickly, and made a habit of going to Kings Row to get the jet pack first.
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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #74 on: November 21, 2013, 12:12:17 PM »
I got tired of running my level 6 toons through The Hollows, and getting the attention of reds and purples, pretty quickly, and made a habit of going to Kings Row to get the jet pack first.

Jet pack? You kids don't know you're born. :-)

It used to be much, much worse. One of the early revelations for me, about i5 or so, was "actually, you don't have to set foot in the Hollows". The only downside was enough other people on Union had had that revelation (or outlevelled the missions), sometimes you'd get 8 for the Cavern of Transcendence and then realise no-one had actually finished the arcs. :-/

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #75 on: November 21, 2013, 02:05:19 PM »
I got tired of running my level 6 toons through The Hollows, and getting the attention of reds and purples, pretty quickly, and made a habit of going to Kings Row to get the jet pack first.

Back in my day we didn't have a jet pack, we had to learn how to use cover to run from the Atlas gate to the opposite corner to the door so we could recover whatever Azura lost again.  Without that you wouldn't have appreciated the Jingle Jet Pack we got that Christmas as much.
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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #76 on: November 21, 2013, 04:17:51 PM »
One of my big disappointments when I started playing COH was not being able to have a travel power at the start. 
That was a deliberate time sink mechanic.

Another was not having any defense for a blaster.


One thing I do like about CO: after playing the tutorial once with any new characters you can opt to skip the tutorial and start at level 6 when a travel power is available.

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #77 on: November 21, 2013, 04:53:37 PM »
Back in my day we didn't have a jet pack, we had to learn how to use cover to run from the Atlas gate to the opposite corner to the door so we could recover whatever Azura lost again.  Without that you wouldn't have appreciated the Jingle Jet Pack we got that Christmas as much.

Did they rewrite all the missions where Magical Artifacts Guarded Ineptly lost something after the fall of Galaxy?

I remember the Jingle Jet. IIRC, I went and created a few characters I just had half-baked concepts for during the Winter Event - if I got the name and the powerset right, I could fix up the costume later and save myself some walking.

I didn't really mind the lack of a travel power at the start - bit tiresome at release, but once Sprint/Hurdle were inherent and contacts less coy about their numbers, I was happy enough getting it at 14; the newbie zones were pretty small, and XP comes in fast enough at the start.

And really, blasters? If they had defences, what's the point in being a scrapper? The blaster's meant to be the cocaine effect; it feels great until the crash, and you've just got to take the enemy down before they can do unto you. If there's one thing I hated about Inventions, it was the idea of blasters at the defence cap.

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #78 on: November 21, 2013, 09:15:59 PM »
Jet pack? You kids don't know you're born. :-)

It used to be much, much worse. One of the early revelations for me, about i5 or so, was "actually, you don't have to set foot in the Hollows". The only downside was enough other people on Union had had that revelation (or outlevelled the missions), sometimes you'd get 8 for the Cavern of Transcendence and then realise no-one had actually finished the arcs. :-/

One of my SGs used to run the Caverns every day. If done right you can stealth the whole thing with recall and a Mind controller with Confuse. We would do it in 7-9 minutes.

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #79 on: November 21, 2013, 10:19:27 PM »
Welcome, KingsGambit! Being that you're newly-arrived, you might want to check under Multimedia, subheading Icon, to see how you can still create a CoX character, and run/fly around in the CoX maps. (The first couple of times might induce homesickness - they did, for me - but it gets enjoyable. :) ) Also, see the various Plan Z headings for news of the development progress of the various CoX successor projects. Keep your cape handy, pally; we're not licked yet. Also, if you play Champions, Star Trek or Neverwinter, there's a chat channel called CoX, where you can talk with your fellow refugees. Again, welcome!
Thank you so much for such a warm welcome. I'm glad I'm not the only CoX refugee and this thread helps a lot :-) What a great community. I have actually already tried the icon program (actually finding it is what led me to this thread). I'm also a CoT backer on Kickstarter and while I have (lifetime) accounts on CO and STO I must admit I didn't spend too long with them. CO was missing something that I couldn't put my finger on. I enjoyed STO, but playing Klingon side I ran out of content very fast. I thoroughly enjoyed the ground missions and may reinstall it someday (and when I do I will certainly join the CoX channel).

Homesickness is a great way to describe this feeling right now, though it's still surreal to realise that the home isn't there to return to. :-( My greatest hope is that there'll be a private server working someday. Have never played any game on one, but would gladly do so now.

One of my big disappointments when I started playing COH was not being able to have a travel power at the start. 
You must admit tho, that it did make getting the travel power that little bit more special and rewarding. It vastly changes the game by taking away the threat of random encounters. I will agree tho that it did make for some painfully slow going at first. And then I got the vet badge that allowed picking up the travel power straight away at lvl 6. That was lovely o.o I actually used one of the real-money travel powers for my last character. Returning to the game after a spell away maybe June-ish a year ago, I made a Rogue mastermind named "Growl Rawr". He was tiny size with costumes as a leopord, tiger, wolf but had a giant tiger costume for "bad arse mode" etc. and I exclusively used beast run with him; it was a lot of fun to move about with his four legged, furry retinue in tow. Just a shame the nature secondary powerset hadn't been released at the time as it would have been the perfect secondary.

One thing I didn't like was actually quite specific to the archetypes. Three in particular. Namely stalkers and blasters in PvP and corruptor in PvE. My first char was a corruptor and was disappointed when after lvl 25ish he seemed to become less and less effective as he levelled. All other ATs gained power as they levelled, but the corruptor got noticeably weaker. He ended up a great healer/support character, but sucked at soloing.

I did love how homey the game felt tho. How even after months away, one could return and still feel immediately familiar and at home. Because multiple characters with different mentors over the years eventually covered most missions, sometimes revisiting older zones like Atlas, Mercy or Port Oakes, I'd be flying over and I'd remember something that happened there, maybe years earlier.

And what other game, or MMO, can one have so many different characters/powersets and swap between them without thought. Between muscle-memory and simply knowing our characters so well, we could swap our healer for a domi, MM, scrapper, whatever and get straight to it without a pause. I think I could still pull off my twin-blade/regen scrapper's combos if I could log in as him right now.

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #80 on: November 22, 2013, 12:54:16 AM »
One of my big disappointments when I started playing COH was not being able to have a travel power at the start. 
That was a deliberate time sink mechanic.

Another was not having any defense for a blaster.


One thing I do like about CO: after playing the tutorial once with any new characters you can opt to skip the tutorial and start at level 6 when a travel power is available.

Well as the game progressed they lowered the level you get travel powers at and with enhancements you could add defense to your blaster.  In CO its pretty much the same unless you are freeform.  I guess they refer the blaster equivalent a "glass cannon" in CO.  They are usually great at clearing out large numbers of the lowest level minions but other than that its a quick dirtnap if you get agro on the Squall or Inferno characters.

If you skip the tutorial though, in CO, you never get the chance to talk to Sapphire right?  That means no "we are the champions" perk if you are the badge hunter type.

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #81 on: November 22, 2013, 01:22:46 AM »
Well as the game progressed they lowered the level you get travel powers at and with enhancements you could add defense to your blaster.  In CO its pretty much the same unless you are freeform.  I guess they refer the blaster equivalent a "glass cannon" in CO.  They are usually great at clearing out large numbers of the lowest level minions but other than that its a quick dirtnap if you get agro on the Squall or Inferno characters.

If you skip the tutorial though, in CO, you never get the chance to talk to Sapphire right?  That means no "we are the champions" perk if you are the badge hunter type.
besides the events she appears and perform. Think the anniversary event.

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #82 on: November 22, 2013, 02:05:25 AM »
For me it was reading about the builds and trying them out myself. While admittedly my builds typically ended up quite terrible, I loved the forum banter over what builds could or couldn't do when it came to soloing or putting out the most DPS possible without dying. The amount of knowledge was (is) enormous. And learning about different play styles often made characters I thought was terrible into nigh unstoppable freight trains ( I'm looking at you Darkness debuff pool).

But most of all, while some archetypes may arguably been better or worse than others, they were all viable and could pull their own weight. There wasn't much emphasis on the trinity of mmos either. If I want to run into a mob by my own I could, but I better know my character well. And I better not drag the mob over to the team if I can't. Nothing made me feel better than often being one of the two left standing on a team as a Super Reflexes scrapper when the Tank would grab too much aggro.

Champions just felt wrong. Like a step back. I liked the cell shading. I liked the characters. But not all powers are equal. It felt like the way WoW ( and a lot of mmos) does to me and that's the monotony of following a rotation. Sure you don't have to. But you'll do much better if you do. Don't get me wrong, CoX most certainly had rotations. But you didn't have to follow it in order to succeed. DCUO just took it a step further and added "clipping" which is just using your hotbar skills while using a mouse click attack,canceling the animation but still dealing more damage. It's fun but when I just want to relax  it's a pain. Kinda like playing a RTS with a mouse and your opponent is a master of piano playing of hotkeys on their keyboards, making their reactions ten times faster than yours.

And while I stated the biggest thing I liked was something else, the Truth is the community for CoX. Sure people got angry and yelled at each other like brothers and sisters from time to time. But there was always a grain of truth/help to what they were saying. And while I'm just the homeless guy (sometimes werid, sometimes cool, mostly people yelling at me to leave) that wandered into a party I wasn't invited to, I felt as if I could just butt my way into different groups and make friends. People would talk to each other during pick up groups. None of this run in silent Rambo style just to get a dungeon done quicker just for loot or XP. Heck I remember getting into a super group just because someone recognized that my character was a homage to the Claymore anime and they just happened to have a Claymore SG. I know I kinda said my goodbyes to CoX a while ago but when it comes back ( or the City of Titans proves to be close enough) I will be there. Bottle of booze in hand and tin foil hat on head.

JaguarX

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #83 on: November 22, 2013, 02:32:16 AM »
For me it was reading about the builds and trying them out myself. While admittedly my builds typically ended up quite terrible, I loved the forum banter over what builds could or couldn't do when it came to soloing or putting out the most DPS possible without dying. The amount of knowledge was (is) enormous. And learning about different play styles often made characters I thought was terrible into nigh unstoppable freight trains ( I'm looking at you Darkness debuff pool).

But most of all, while some archetypes may arguably been better or worse than others, they were all viable and could pull their own weight. There wasn't much emphasis on the trinity of mmos either. If I want to run into a mob by my own I could, but I better know my character well. And I better not drag the mob over to the team if I can't. Nothing made me feel better than often being one of the two left standing on a team as a Super Reflexes scrapper when the Tank would grab too much aggro.

Champions just felt wrong. Like a step back. I liked the cell shading. I liked the characters. But not all powers are equal. It felt like the way WoW ( and a lot of mmos) does to me and that's the monotony of following a rotation. Sure you don't have to. But you'll do much better if you do. Don't get me wrong, CoX most certainly had rotations. But you didn't have to follow it in order to succeed. DCUO just took it a step further and added "clipping" which is just using your hotbar skills while using a mouse click attack,canceling the animation but still dealing more damage. It's fun but when I just want to relax  it's a pain. Kinda like playing a RTS with a mouse and your opponent is a master of piano playing of hotkeys on their keyboards, making their reactions ten times faster than yours.

And while I stated the biggest thing I liked was something else, the Truth is the community for CoX. Sure people got angry and yelled at each other like brothers and sisters from time to time. But there was always a grain of truth/help to what they were saying. And while I'm just the homeless guy (sometimes werid, sometimes cool, mostly people yelling at me to leave) that wandered into a party I wasn't invited to, I felt as if I could just butt my way into different groups and make friends. People would talk to each other during pick up groups. None of this run in silent Rambo style just to get a dungeon done quicker just for loot or XP. Heck I remember getting into a super group just because someone recognized that my character was a homage to the Claymore anime and they just happened to have a Claymore SG. I know I kinda said my goodbyes to CoX a while ago but when it comes back ( or the City of Titans proves to be close enough) I will be there. Bottle of booze in hand and tin foil hat on head.
I'm starting to think I was on the wrong servers.
Seem like on the servers I been on it was all about getting through the mission/TF as fast as possible for the end loot/reward. Except without the Rambo part because usually the speed runs didn't involve killing much of anything and more like playing or watching someone play a stealth game and sneak around.

Nealix

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #84 on: November 22, 2013, 08:19:49 PM »
besides the events she appears and perform. Think the anniversary event.
I never could find her during the anniversary event.

Stone Daemon

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #85 on: November 22, 2013, 08:26:56 PM »
Oh! I forgot another very important thing I look for in other MMO's. It was, in the end, the key feature that caused me to set aside Star Wars. I could have overlooked the awful travel times...maybe. For a time anyway. (In case you were curious, the missions are what made me give up CO--or more specifically, the Desert Zone. Oh my god that place was awful.)

But anyway! My fourth requirement for a good MMO is a purple patch.

Now, we all know how the purple patch in CoH affected us when trying to hit enemies. The stronger in level, the more badass they were and the less effective we were. What I never really thought about, at least until I missed it in other games, was how it affected enemies trying to hit us. Example;

CoH: You're 5 levels higher conning than the enemy fighting you, you're basically a god. They can't do anything to you, and you can easily crush them and listen to the lamentations of their women.

SWTOR: You're 5 levels higher, and they still take forever to kill. There is essentially no difference, except you may have a couple extra powers and a little more hp.

I like the feeling of progress CoH had. Of actually getting stronger and dealing with bigger threats as I gain levels. Being able to go back to Atlas on your level 30+ guy and punting around hellions that used be able to actually hurt you. Going back to one of the first worlds (in Star Wars) on my level 30~ dude and getting my arse handed to me by what was basically a level 10 giant monster was incredibly disappointing.

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #86 on: November 22, 2013, 08:45:24 PM »
Definitely truth in that, Demon. I loved bugging back to Atlas or KR with a Dark or psi character, dropping down into the middle of a bunch f Hellions who at one time would have chewed me up and spit me out, and just hitting 3 on my keyboard and watching the lot of them drop dead.

Like you say, it gave you a certain feeling of accomplishment to know you had grown beyond what you once were. To know that hellions and skuls who had once been your bane were now so much trash to be taken out, but that you still had new and difficult foes like the knives and the freakshow that you could look forward to being challenged by.
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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #87 on: November 22, 2013, 10:34:38 PM »
besides the events she appears and perform. Think the anniversary event.

She's also one of the ones who'll randomly appear and help in UNITY missions - if you do the first five each day and then go back, you'll get one more. And in that one, a random NPC will be hanging out in the first room to offer their help. I think all the Champions can spawn there. Also Foxbat for some reason.

JaguarX

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #88 on: November 22, 2013, 10:53:20 PM »
I never could find her during the anniversary event.

She can be on stage performing and flaying around there. It's easier to catch her when she is back stage.

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #89 on: November 24, 2013, 05:46:39 AM »
I like the feeling of progress CoH had. Of actually getting stronger and dealing with bigger threats as I gain levels. Being able to go back to Atlas on your level 30+ guy and punting around hellions that used be able to actually hurt you. Going back to one of the first worlds (in Star Wars) on my level 30~ dude and getting my arse handed to me by what was basically a level 10 giant monster was incredibly disappointing.

So true!  I remember how disillusioned I became with SWTOR when I realised at lvl 40 I couldn't take on any more mobs than I could handle at 1.

JaguarX

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #90 on: November 24, 2013, 05:53:40 AM »
So true!  I remember how disillusioned I became with SWTOR when I realised at lvl 40 I couldn't take on any more mobs than I could handle at 1.
yeah, but I think it's like that in an attempt to prevent higher levels from going back and interrupting game play of the lower levels by killing off a bunch of mob that cant hurt the high level but now the low level have nothing to kill and have to compete with high levels even in low level zones.

Luckily COX had some zones that were not frequented by low levels much and high levels could go punt around level 10s like veggie cans.

But then there was others that preferred to do that in Atlas when low level toons are trying to complete missions and follow low levels around and defeating things before the low level could get to them. That kind of killed street sweeping for xp. Cant go two mobs in steel canyon without a group of level 50s running in and blasting everything in the are to bits which means the low levels have to try and find some mob and try and kill it before the 50s get wind of it or wait around waiting for respawn. So much for street sweeping.

But the side effect of that type of control is that yeah it don't seem the progression of getting powerful as one level is there.

Cinnder

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #91 on: November 24, 2013, 07:48:12 AM »
yeah, but I think it's like that in an attempt to prevent higher levels from going back and interrupting game play of the lower levels by killing off a bunch of mob that cant hurt the high level but now the low level have nothing to kill and have to compete with high levels even in low level zones.

Huh.  I never saw that once in the 7 years I played CoX.  Maybe the fact that more content was instanced in CoX than in SWTOR made it less of an issue.

JaguarX

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #92 on: November 24, 2013, 08:01:00 AM »
Huh.  I never saw that once in the 7 years I played CoX.  Maybe the fact that more content was instanced in CoX than in SWTOR made it less of an issue.
yup in COX, it was less issue mostly because most stuff was instanced, but many time some low level group out street sweeping get their party crashed by a mob of higher level players trying to show off how far they can "punt" low level enemies.

In CO, that issue is a bigger issue as many missions are outside open world missions, especially during Q hour.

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #93 on: November 24, 2013, 12:29:10 PM »
In COX you were a super so of course you had powers to easily defeat weak opponents.  In other genres it should not be so easy.  Easier, yes, but not easy.


I started playing SWTOR again, and hate all the running around and constant fighting I have to do to get to missions locations on Coruscant.  Seems like there's this lack of comms devices on a future setting going on (like old CoX when you HAD to return to the contact after every mission).  I just wish the street mobs would go to a neutral stance instead of attack on sight, though, when you have "defeated" the area (or a disguise option so I don't have to fight every Tom, Dick, and Hans along the way).  I want my frakkin' ship already, dammit. 

Eoraptor

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #94 on: November 24, 2013, 04:09:43 PM »
Another thing, for me at least, was the variety of types of player. With most other games you either have hitter/blaster/healer or striker/tank/healer, the so-called holy trinities of MMO. In the City, there were as many different roles to play as there were costumes on the street, you could be a hitter, blaster, healer, offensive crowd control, defensive crowd control, or a hybrid of most of these. It made every mission most people ran as teams a bit different. And everyone could contribute, instead of people kicking you because you didn't perfectly meet their idea of the perfect pre-programmed battle plan. You also learned the benefits and drawbacks fo having teams made up entirely of blasters or entirely of scrappers when you suddenly found yourself pinned down with no heals and no one to draw the spawns off you.
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thunderforce

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #95 on: November 25, 2013, 01:17:06 AM »
One of my SGs used to run the Caverns every day. If done right you can stealth the whole thing with recall and a Mind controller with Confuse. We would do it in 7-9 minutes.

I wouldn't even consider doing it without stealthing it.

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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #96 on: December 01, 2013, 11:45:36 AM »
Sorry if I'm late to the party but here's my two pence.

After trying out Champions Online for a bit, I can decisively say that I'm much more fond of CoX for several reasons.  Firstly, CO's lore was just...well, obscenely generic.  I get that they were going for a silver agey feel, but the NPC's are ridiculous cardboard cut outs and I can only remember two of them.  Kevin Poe and Doctor Destroyer.  Sure there was voice acting, but it was bad, really, really bad. 

But with city of heroes, I actually wanted to care and learn about the setting.  I actually wanted to delve into the story of things and try to make my characters work in it.  I like how, even though superhero settings are often mocked for not really making much sense, City of Heroes, due to being built from the ground up, was in my opinion, a more sensible and well thought out setting than either Marvel or DC. 

Also, teaming up in City of Heroes was not a monumental exercise in frustration as is common in many other games.  It didn't matter what level you were, everyone could pull their weight and everyone was sidekicked or exemplar'd to an appropriate level.  The lack of emphasis on the holy trinity of MMORPGs also made pick up groups far more diverse and entertaining and honestly was more reminiscent of D&D than the standard MMORPG formula.   

That is, D&D without the ridiculous imbalance of the classes (I'm looking at you Clericzillas and Batman Wizards).  Which made every team up, every get together unique and exciting.  It was far more fun to be kicking ass with a kinetic controller while explosions were detonating everywhere or a force fieldy defender than it was to just have some big brick soak up hits, a wizard flinging a fireball while a priest just heals people up.

I especially love how colourful the battlefields in CoX get at high levels as everyone lets loose with some of the most fascinating to watch SFX combinations in a game, nevermind a MMORPG.  The entire world just seemed to *work* and I was glad to play in it and study it in depth.   And I was tremendously saddened when it all went away.   

Also, the Character Creator was amazing and always seemed to let you make just what you wanted, while things like DCUO and CO tended to have a certain "aesthetic" that you had to keep to even if they technically had more options like in CO's case, or in DCUO's case they actually had *less* options.  Try as I might, in CO I could never quite make a character who didn't look too...cartoonish for what I had in mind. 

Nothing else just...clicked so well.   
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Re: Why CoH over other Superhero MMOs?
« Reply #97 on: December 01, 2013, 12:09:23 PM »
Why I prefer CoH over other Superhero MMOs? Because I had literally unlimited options for creating a character. Excluding having more power sets and costume pieces, seeing as CoH had time to implement them, I never felt like a character wouldn't fit within the world or work with their own goals. DCUO pretty much forces you to be within a realm of sort of gritty characters that play second fiddle to the main DC guys while CO's overly goofy world means certain characters don't fit and certain options simply weren't open.

In CoH, I could create a magic character who only chased magic groups or a former Vahzilok who works for the group before going his own way. In CO and DCUO, you had only one or two plot lines to follow to advance while in CoH you could follow a number of contacts or ignore them completely and use paper/police band missions or just the AE.

To me, superhero MMOs are about being a character you want to be. While CO seems to understand this, it's design based solely around combat and goofy aesthetic hamper the idea while DCUO is built around the idea you just want to ape existing characters and again assumes you want to be fighting. While it wasn't my cup of tea, I'm surprised so few games support controller, defender or mastermind style classes.