Author Topic: Immigration reform - Amnesty bill  (Read 18591 times)

Joshex

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Immigration reform - Amnesty bill
« on: June 28, 2013, 01:52:45 AM »
let this be a polite discussion of individuals views on this.

My view? my girlfriend is from china, and the long distance relationship is getting to her.

getting her citizenship is nigh impossible through the normal methods and her parents wont let us marry just yet, so...

I'm kinda out of options, she has threatenned that our relationship will be effectively over if she has to go back to china again. which is coming up soon sometime in august to november.

I have a personal stake in this bill and beg people of all walks to consider what I'm going through.


and for republicans
Spoiler for Hidden:
consider that the bible does not say anything bad about the freedom of immigration, heck if it did can you immagine all the crimes jesus would have offended?

even in the old testament it says for the jews to be kind towards strangers from other lands who visit.
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

dwturducken

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Re: Immigration reform - Amnesty bill
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2013, 02:07:49 AM »
I'll be upfront and admit that I haven't really been paying as much attention to this one as I have others, but have there been people trying to make this one a biblical issue, too? I mean, it's not hard to make a biblical connection to any issue, maybe even our game. I'm just confused, is all.
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

Joshex

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Re: Immigration reform - Amnesty bill
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2013, 02:17:54 AM »
I'll be upfront and admit that I haven't really been paying as much attention to this one as I have others, but have there been people trying to make this one a biblical issue, too? I mean, it's not hard to make a biblical connection to any issue, maybe even our game. I'm just confused, is all.

not quite, I'm just generalizing that a a good portion of republicans may believe in the bible so I'm bringing up that angle.
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

dwturducken

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Re: Immigration reform - Amnesty bill
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2013, 03:40:32 AM »
OK, good. Like I said, I haven't really been paying as much attention, but I would put nothing past some extremists. Watching Westboro is like a spectator sport, some days. :)
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: Immigration reform - Amnesty bill
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2013, 07:20:54 AM »
Heh, I don't think you even needed to go there on one particular topic. Your common run-of-the-mill Republican, if he/she is religious, in MANY examples is the type of thing Jesus condemned. Pharisees more or less is what they are.

I presume she isn't cool with the idea of eloping?

Rust

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Re: Immigration reform - Amnesty bill
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2013, 08:11:55 AM »
Heh, I don't think you even needed to go there on one particular topic. Your common run-of-the-mill Republican, if he/she is religious, in MANY examples is the type of thing Jesus condemned. Pharisees more or less is what they are.

Pretty much this. It amazes me how many Pundits get on their pulpits and TV Shows and completely forget about Matthew 6.

As for Immigration Reform...I'm for reform, but I'm not comfortable with amnesty because I feel it sends the wrong message and rewards rule breakers while leaving those that were trying to do things "right" get left in the cold.

At the same time, I fully acknowledge there are too many in the country illegally to make it practical to do anything but give them a pass on their actions.

The best thing about this measure - and something its opponents fail to grasp - is that it offers fundamental protection under the law. A lot of opponents (I work early enough in the day on my drive home I can tune into the Pundits and Talking Heads ranting when I opt out of listening to faith based radio) see this bill as designed by employers of illegals to get a new influx of workers.

But that makes zero sense, since under this reform, said workers can now report abuse at workplaces and generally makes it that much more difficult for employers to mistreat their employees.

Overall, despite my own personal reservations, I feel reform is a good thing. This is a nation of immigrants (I myself am only third generation on my mother's side) and I feel that is a tradition worth keeping.
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Tenzhi

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Re: Immigration reform - Amnesty bill
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2013, 10:21:24 AM »
I feel that there are too many people here as-is...  and while I suppose that's an encroaching global issue, I don't think we should make it easier for folks to just hop across our border and put down roots (particularly not for folks who already hopped across our border in a less-than-legal fashion).

Of course, I'd also be in favour of some population control laws.  Mandatory sterilization after 2+ kids, for instance. 
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.

silvers1

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Re: Immigration reform - Amnesty bill
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2013, 11:47:35 AM »
I'm against amnesty for a number of reasons:

1.  You must have an immigration process to allow filtering of "undesirables".   ( i.e., those with criminal backgrounds, terrorists,
 mental issues, drug dealers,  etc. )

2.  The number of immigrants must be kept to a reasonable level to allow integration into existing society.   Most areas of the country
have existing cultures that have every right to exist and to continue.   If you bring in 10s of millions of people, those cultures will be
eradicated.   The incoming will feel they have sufficient numbers to enforce their culture on others.  I dont want the USA to become
"North Mexico Province".  What would happen would be very similar to what China is doing to Tibet.

3.  Cost - healthcare for these people is already bankrupting us.  If all of them come out of the shadows, in combination with Obamacare, the
cost will be staggering.  The economy cant take it.

4.  Respect for law - we have existing laws governing immigration, which this administration refuses to enforce. If you come into this country illegally, you show you have zero respect for law.  Why would you have respect for any other law?

5.   Balance of Political Parties - as of now, we have a stalemate between the two political parties.  I'd like to keep it that way.
If you give voting rights  to all of these "immigrants",  lets face it, they're voting Democrat.  That stalemate will be broken forever,
and the Dems will have complete control - forever.   While I'm sure Dems would love that, I dont think it's healthy for the country to give one
party that amount of power.   Just look at  the level of corruption in the NSA and IRS, and that's just from 5 years of control.

6.  Slavery - a lof of these people are taking menial and/or back breaking jobs and being paid sub minimum wage.  I consider this to be the "new slavery."  You give these people amnesty - then their employers will need a new set of "slaves" who are not protected by labor laws.  You've just
created a scenario where another 10-20 million replacements will come in.  Then another round of amnesty, it never ends.


From a biblical point of view,  I'm sure Jesus would say to not break the law, if the law is just.  Immigrations laws, which are meant to protect
existing citizens, are just.

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Segev

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Re: Immigration reform - Amnesty bill
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2013, 12:46:53 PM »
The so-called "Immigration Reform" bill won't help your girlfriend. It will only help those who come here illegally gain a pseudo-legal status which keeps them from being entitled to the same legal protections and benefits (at the least in the work place) as those who came here according to the rules. If your girlfriend is here legally, she will, in fact, have nothing change for her with this atrocity's passage. If she becomes illegal, she will lose certain protections, but in the process, she might become more hire-able as employers will legally be able to employ her second-class immigrant-status person without having to provide Obamacare coverage, without having to obey minimum wage laws, without having to even really concern themselves with most other regulations governing benefits, pay, and possibly (it's not yet clear) workplace safety.

This isn't a "pro-immigration" nor even "pro-immigrant" bill. This is a bill designed to import a poor underclass to serve initially as a group that can be paid less than their legal (and citizen) counterparts, and then to provide a campaign issue for those who support big government to point out how inhumane that status is. They'll champion passing new laws overturning all the supposedly-tough provisions, granting all in this nation exactly what they already have: full access to our government benefits.

Its supposedly-tough border enforcement measures are really just proposals; the language of the bill expressly allows the Secretary in charge of INS to decide whether or not to use the funds as outlined in the bill, and only requires her to have a plan saying how she'd do it if she chose to before the amnesty provisions kick in. Given that this Secretary has - with her boss, Obama's, full backing - stated that she thinks the border is plenty secure, we know nothing will be enforced. In fact, we know she will act to prevent anybody from working towards it being more secure, as the Fed. has actively hamstringed any State-level efforts to protect their borders. (Whether you think the States' methods were right or wrong, you cannot deny that this administration has put them in a Catch-22: if the administration doesn't want to protect the border, they have no recourse at the State level.)

This bill is a hideously racist piece of cynical abuse, designed to transform illegal hispanic immigrants (and any others they can rope in; I suppose it's not "racist" so much as "classist") into a permanent, dependent underclass. There is an aspect of our political spectrum that cannot survive without poor, dependent people living on an effective plantation, and this bill is designed to feed that machine by creating new victims to be exploited on one side and then exploited by self-proclaimed champions on the other, the one to evade economy-killing policies and the other to use that evasion to justify still more such policies combined with a grab to get votes (legal or not!) from the new permanent underclass.

And in the process, it will only do as the 1986 law did, and encourage more illegal immigration, making a mockery of those immigrants who, like your girlfriend, followed the rules.


What we NEED is a Legal Immigrants' Rights Defense Act. This act would enforce border security and deny all benefits and support to anybody who is here illegally. It would give those who are caught but who have legal citizen children (due to the "born in the USA" part of our Constitution) the right to put their child up for adoption (thus not denying the child his rights as a US citizen) or take him with them (and foresake his citizenship, thus not breaking up the family), but it would still deport them. Why do this? To protect the rights of the LEGAL immigrants from being abused and trampled by law-breakers. It would and should also look at our approval process. It's old and creaky in this modern era, and needs a revamping. We need to have more high-tech research done on applicants to accelerate the process, and we need better tracking mechanisms so we can be more welcoming to more people without diminishing our security. Protections already extend to legal immigrants that make them, on a social and legal-protections level, pretty much as secure as US citizens. What we need are new provisions with hard-set requirements to protect our legal immigrants from unlawful and unfair competition for jobs, benefits, or what-have-you from illegals.

This bill now in the Senate won't do this. This bill now in the Senate will at best mock and at worst paint with a brush of resentment your girlfriend. She is, by the way this bill is written, an idiot for obeying our laws rather than coming here illegally. She will, too, be viewed with unfair suspicion because of this law, which paints all immigrants with the same brush and treats illegals as a protected underclass that nevertheless has no protection. Cultural resentment is inevitable, and will (by the design of the very campaigns used to promote the amnesty act: that is, the accusation that those who oppose amnesty are anti-immigrant, implying that illegals are no different than legals) harm legal immigrants' standing in society's eyes by making them look no different than the criminals who broke our laws to get here.


So, if you love and respect your girlfriend, and you want something that will help her, don't support this bill. It will, at best, do nothing to help her. It can, at worst, put her behind illegals in many unofficial waiting lines and harm her ability to be treated with respect by American society. This bill is destructive to the interests of all save the ruling class in this country, and seeks to improve the ruling class's lot by importing a still lower-class (and potentially lowering, by its inducements, currently legal immigrants to that lower class) for them to exploit.

Ironwolf

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Re: Immigration reform - Amnesty bill
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2013, 03:32:03 PM »
It is a very simple thing:

1. Countries have the right to secure their borders so they can apply laws and rights to those citizens who choose to live there.

2. The borders should be secure. You cannot allow free access to your country due to criminal and terrorist reasons.

3. Those currently living here because of the failure to do the first 2 - in spite of BILLIONS of dollars spent to do so - should be put through the regular immigration path. This mean no felony crimes or violent crimes - or you are deported.

4. Do it now, right now - stop the posturing and political games and make a simple law not a mess of free money giveaways and sweet deals to senators and their home states. It should be a free and clear bill with one purpose and no earmarks piled on.

5. Stop the politics of race and begin the politics of lawfulness. Under this current bill an illegal immigrant gets a lower charge or no charge at all than what a current citizen does and this is a CLEAR violation of the Constitution. Bill of righs Amendment 14 states: Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Equal protection under the law means all CITIZENS should get equal treatment and if these peoples want to join us - they should fall under our laws.


This is from a Tea Party conservative Democrat. I feel some issues are beyond politics and this is one of them. Make the country safe the same way you would put up a fence in some areas to secure your home.


dwturducken

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Re: Immigration reform - Amnesty bill
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2013, 03:45:59 PM »
Back up. What's a Tea Party conservative Democrat? My head about esploded when I read that.
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

Ironwolf

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Re: Immigration reform - Amnesty bill
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2013, 03:48:40 PM »
As for what the Run-of-the-mill Republican is like or what they believe may absolutely surprise you.

I am a Tea Party conservative DEMOCRAT - my father was the head of the CWA union in Michigan, my mother was a Teamster union steward. I was brought up to believe you vote for any social program you can PAY for. You don't pass the costs on to another gemeration and spend blindly.

I have studied the issues and John F. Kennedy was RIGHT of John McCain the last Republican to run for President.

Our country has turned HARD to the left and this is a normal thing. The Victorian period was followed by the roaring 20's. Then the Woodrow Wilson era where he founded many of the socialist programs and plans. It swung back as the country was threatened during WWII. The Veitnam era and soon as the waste fraud and abuses of a big government are seen to be damaging the country - it will be corrected.

I believe in a free society - where you can sink or swim based on your own talent and skill and you have your family, neighbors and faith to aid you when you falter. I do not believe most of the entitlement programs are doing anything to build a stronger country - in fact it weakens us socially and morally. Look at the witness in the Trayvon Martin trial. The poor girl is uneducated, clueless and sadly unable to stand on her own. We are meant to be independant and proud of it - that is how we were founded. When surrounded during a battle Chesty Puller a marine legend once said:

"Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't
be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our
women and breed a hardier race!"

"All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of
us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time"
- Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller, USMC

This as well as this by James Braddock a one time Heavy Weight champ who beat Max Schmeling and lost to Joe Louis:

Reporter: Bob Johnson, Boston Globe. Two days ago, we ran a story about you giving your relief money back. Can you tell our readers why?
Jim Braddock: I believe we live in a great country... a country that's great enough to help a man financially when he's in trouble. But lately, I've had some good fortune, and I'm back in the black. I just thought I should return it.

This work ethic is mostly gone or going and so will we soon.




Ironwolf

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Re: Immigration reform - Amnesty bill
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2013, 03:52:14 PM »
Back up. What's a Tea Party conservative Democrat? My head about esploded when I read that.

I believe we are Taxed Enough Already. I believe our government has stepped WAY past the limits the Constitution had in place for it and I believe they are seeking even more power and intrusion into our lives. I believe they waste most of the money given to them and that much of it goes to enrich themselves and their friends. Croney capitalism used to be illegal and you used to get impeached for it. Now we have set up a commitee of Foxes to guard the hen house and expect them to vote for more security and safety for chickens.


Rust

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Re: Immigration reform - Amnesty bill
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2013, 04:13:30 PM »
"The more laws, the less justice."

"Nothing is more unreliable than the populace, nothing more obscure than human intentions, nothing more deceptive than the whole electoral system."

"Laws are silent in time of war."

"When you have no basis for an argument, abuse the plaintiff."

"The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance."

~ Marcus Tullius Cicero, circa 55 BC

Nothing changes.

And by that I mean the arguments for and against society - any society - are the same regardless of the era and age. I recall on my trip to the East Coast visiting several old cemeteries and one headstone bemoaned the arrogance of the Democrat party, and how America would be "as dead as I" in 50 years. This gentleman passed well before even our Civil War.

We see the worst, rather then the best. To use Rome as an example, the reason the Gauls sacked Rome was because they had been promised land, food, and security in Rome and received none of those things. The lands never materialized, the food was denied (Though in fairness to Rome, that was due more to a drought then malicious intent), and virtually all of the Gaul's children were seized into slavery or pressed into the Legions. The dam simply burst in that respect. You can only kick a dog so many times before it bites.

If we keep the illegal population of our own country in a legal grey area, we risk much the same things. I understand and agree with the concerns on crime, but ultimately I think in the long run this will defuse a lot of tension in areas that have substantial immigrant populations. To say nothing of suddenly generating a lot more tax revenue.

I work retail in a area with a large Hispanic population in a community that is pretty renowned for its isolation and racism. I've grown up here, but involuntarily "indoctrinated" to that way of thinking. And you know what?

There are more good people here then bad people. They aren't any different from you or I. They just want a better life. Sure there are some bad apples, but there are some bad apples in any ethnic group.

I say let them stay. Let them gain legal status and protections, and that way we ourselves do not find ourselves being overrun by the modern day Gauls - an oppressed secondary class with no rights and nothing endearing them to the society they live in.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2013, 04:23:53 PM by Rust »
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Segev

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Re: Immigration reform - Amnesty bill
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2013, 05:31:33 PM »
As a Tea Party Conservative (republican, because I don't see anything even pretending to be in line with my beliefs on the democrat side), I can fully appreciate how one can be a Tea Party Conservative Democrat.

There is a lot in the professed beliefs and goals of the Democrat party to admire. I do not support even their purported means to get there, so I don't support their politicians, but I can see why their stated goals are attractive. (Again, I just don't think the policies they support will achieve them.)

I can easily see how a Democrat, supportive of stated aims of the party in broad terms, would still think that taxes are too high for too little return, how the government as its constituted - more and more clearly by both parties' leadership, especially in this Amnesty bill - is not actually interested in what it claims and is more corrupt than it is helpful, and possibly just plain too big even to achieve liberal big-government aims.

And Ironwolf, I don't mean to put words in your mouth. I am simply saying that I can fully appreciate how you and I, despite differing views of which party may once have had the right policies to achieve the best for this nation, could both be Tea Party supporters in the face of a government-of-and-for-the-ruling-class, which just wants us peons to sit down, shut up, and do as we're told.

Ironwolf

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Re: Immigration reform - Amnesty bill
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2013, 06:18:36 PM »
Yes, I currently tend to side with the Republican party due to their SLIGHTLY less intrusive stance. It is truly only a stance as they almost all appear to be hellbent on accuring power for themselves.

Look at this small comparison:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScMvZinMb6E

A JFK Democrat is absolutely nothing like a Clinton or Obama Democrat.

A great JFK speach:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ILqHSH4X_w

When the topmost members of the Republican side are left of JFK it shows you how far we have fallen as a country. We have given up freedoms to supposed economic and physical freedoms that are false. Look at all of the tragic disasters with Katrina, Sandy and even many of the mass killings. You look to the government for help and they fail repeatedly. A man with a weapon can in most cases only be stopped by another man with a gun. I am a veteran and a CCW licensed weapon carrier as such I am trained to be that man with a gun when it is needed.

Next door to me (I live way in the country) a tree fell down and I walked next door and asked if he needed help cutting it up, since he is 82. He said sure and by the way keep the wood - I know you burn it in the winter. I said something about this to a co-worker who lives in town and they were amazed. What a good neighbor you are they said - I was puzzled - it is what you do in rural areas - there is no government to help you when the nearest ambulance is 30 minutes away.

Segev

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Re: Immigration reform - Amnesty bill
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2013, 06:30:38 PM »
Yeah, I get a little tired of hearing about the Tea Party somehow "holding hostage" the leadership of the Republican party. The truth is about exactly the reverse, from my perspective. I'm not a "third party" proponent, but I do wonder if perhaps this country wouldn't be better represented by its leaders if the current Republican party leadership/establishment/RINOs/whatever-you-call-them shuffled over to officially join the Democrats and the Tea Party conservatives actually and actively took over the leadership of the Republican party.

Hey, if the "conventional wisdom" is right, and we're a bunch of nuts who cost the Republicans elections with our dangerous rhetoric, wouldn't that be good for the country, to finally sever our influence from the "moderate" Republicans and let them work with the "reasonable" Democrats?

(Conversely, if we're not as insane and dangerous as our political foes wish to paint us, it would be good for the nation because it would rebalance things so that the Democrats moderate by inclusion of the so-called "moderate" Republicans and the swath of the country class that is feeling disenfranchised suddenly has a clear voice to pit policy against policy on its merits.)

I mean, the immigration reform bill is demonstrating that the party lines are not representative of where actual philosophy and policy dividing lines lie: it's "Tea Party" vs. "Establishment" up there right now, not "Republican" vs. "Democrat." Perhaps we should re-align our party affiliations to reflect this reality.

dwturducken

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Re: Immigration reform - Amnesty bill
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2013, 06:47:46 PM »
The thing about political discussions, here, and, to a lesser degree, religious discussions, is that they eventually degenerate into each side's bigger whackadoos getting into it, starting a fight, Tony getting pissed and telling us all to calm down, and then someone shutting the thread down. So, here's a picture that my wife found appropriate:

I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

Segev

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Re: Immigration reform - Amnesty bill
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2013, 07:14:16 PM »
I can't see the picture, but I will just go back to re-iterate my point to the OP: This bill won't help your girlfriend, and likely will hurt her. You do not want it to pass. Tell your Senator what you think of him for his vote on this bill, and pressure your congressman to oppose it if it comes to the floor of the House. And don't just take my word for it. Actually look for substantive reporting on what's in it. I'd suggest you try to read it, but that would put you head and shoulders above the Senators who voted on it.

Ironwolf

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Re: Immigration reform - Amnesty bill
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2013, 07:19:05 PM »
I actually believe in the idea that I may not believe in a single thing you say - but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Do you know in Iraq our soldiers were happy when after a short while people would gather and yell and tell them to go home? Why? Because after over 30 years of a brutal dictator within 6-12 months they realized the Americans would not harm them for speaking their mind. That was when the locals started turning in the Al Qauda operatives near them as they saw the soldiers cared and were fair.

If you can't freely talk to me and ignore political correctness we can learn from each other. I told a good friend who didn't often agree with me - I would rather you call me chief (I am cherokee) or some other insult if you feel that way so then we can go past the hate and learn to live with each other. In tribal lands we have had gay weddings for a very long time. It is considered that you are of 2 spirits both man and woman. It is also considered when one gets a bit loopy with old age that you live within 2 lands - both this world and the next and so you are still worthy of respect as you can't help but be confused in both worlds.

Having conversation and speaking freely really breaks down the hate that divides us.