Immigration reform - Amnesty bill

[Rust]

Having conversation and speaking freely really breaks down the hate that divides us.

Agreed there. Also, speaking in politeness. Far, far too often in political discussions you get a degeneration from discussion to declaration and then people start getting huffy. As long as all sides can step back, breathe deep, and realize that ultimately no one is trying to be a "bad guy" and we're all on the same side - just having different ways of getting there - then political discourse can be a satisfying experience.

Coincidentally, I refuse to label myself via a political ideology. Mostly because none of them fit me personally. I think my last political alignment test put me somewhere in the range of socially progressive, fiscally conservative, with a leaning towards conservative communism/libertarianism. The reason I don't just call myself a Marxist is because like Marx himself I realize his political ideals are impractical in real world application. Human ego gets in the way, thus making it not applicable as a good system of government.

I'm just looking for the next Theodore Roosevelt, who is probably the last US President I really supported wholeheartedly. He was by no means a complete altruist (I mean, look what he and his Administration did in Panama to secure rights to build the canal), but I feel he was the last truly effective President this country has had - made the biggest strides in breaking the oligarchy and practiced rational conservation.

Needless to say, modern politicians leave me wanting.

So maybe I'm best at saying I'm a Bull Moose.

[Segev]

I think the only proper response here is...

*blows audience a kiss* Good night, everyone!

[Joshex]

Heh, I don't think you even needed to go there on one particular topic. Your common run-of-the-mill Republican, if he/she is religious, in MANY examples is the type of thing Jesus condemned. Pharisees more or less is what they are.

I presume she isn't cool with the idea of eloping?

she's ok with that but her parents wont allow it yet. and she respects her parents alot as comes with chinese culture..

her family said it's ok for her to get citizenship but not through marriage. not yet.

long distance relationship and red tape .. what do?

is there anyone here who owns a company that can help my girlfriend get a work visa and work permit for say... 3 years?

please any help will be heavily appreciated. my girlfriend is getting her masters in illustration at edinburgh colelge of art. she's almost got it. her course ends in late august and she gets the certificate in november.

[Surelle]

she's ok with that but her parents wont allow it yet. and she respects her parents alot as comes with chinese culture..

her family said it's ok for her to get citizenship but not through marriage. not yet.

long distance relationship and red tape .. what do?

is there anyone here who owns a company that can help my girlfriend get a work visa and work permit for say... 3 years?

please any help will be heavily appreciated. my girlfriend is getting her masters in illustration at edinburgh colelge of art. she's almost got it. her course ends in late august and she gets the certificate in november.

I think there's a lot of proof needed for a work visa that no citizen already in the US who's willing and able can already do that work instead.  We have unemployment here too and that is meant to protect US citizens.  I'm just sayin'.

But your girlfriend should do what everyone else does and apply for jobs.  Or have you ever considered dual citizenship with China if that's possible?  Or some sort of visa so you could go back with her for a while?

And by the way, eloping has nothing to do with what her parents are cool with or not.  Eloping means you don't ask them, you just run off and do it.     I'm not saying either of you should, but that's what it means.  I understand she doesn't want to marry you under those circumstances out of respect for them, and that's fine, but she's got to deal with the consequences of going back to China and so does her family.

[Joshex]

I think there's a lot of proof needed for a work visa that no citizen already in the US who's willing and able can already do that work instead.  We have unemployment here too and that is meant to protect US citizens.  I'm just sayin'.

But your girlfriend should do what everyone else does and apply for jobs.  Or have you ever considered dual citizenship with China if that's possible?  Or some sort of visa so you could go back with her for a while?

And by the way, eloping has nothing to do with what her parents are cool with or not.  Eloping means you don't ask them, you just run off and do it.     I'm not saying either of you should, but that's what it means.  I understand she doesn't want to marry you under those circumstances out of respect for them, and that's fine, but she's got to deal with the consequences of going back to China and so does her family.

1: china doesn't recognise dual citizenship. and she stronly doesn't want me to get chinese citizenship.

2: she has me applying for jobs for her but so far non of the art jobs in NY state are willing to fillout the forms necessary to help her get the Work visa.

3: I want to go back but her parents demand I get a bachelors degree, and she only gave me 3 years to meet those requirements. then she dumps me. So I am forced to stay here for school. (I also ahve limited money and can;t afford other schools that supply online programs and Idon't have enough money to buy a plane ticket to china lol. I'm currently out of work, ahve been for several months, but now I'm more concerned about fidning her work here in the USA)

4: she said she will respect her parents and not get married to me yet.

5: Really, any help would be great, I really don;t mind sharing personal info if it means one of the business owners of titan will help us get her Work visa in order. all you'd have to claim is you need her in the country on call to perform art when necessary.

heh she loves CoH I'm sure she'll gladly draw advertisements we really just need some way for her to be here with me.

[Taceus Jiwede]

Joshex, that is a tough call.  Too be honest, if the stipulation is marriage or being dumped.  I say take the latter.  I know that isn't what you want but love has no stipulations.  If you have to get a bachelors in 3 years, she doesn't want you in china unless you have the following, her parents won't let her marry and get citizenship that way.  And you constantly are fearing getting dumped if you don't complete this marriage check list that doesn't seem right for anyone man.  That is just my 2 cents, I am not saying leave her.  Just do whats best for you.  Marriage is a long time(or its suppose to be at least)is this the woman you want to spend the rest of your life with?  To be honest the solution is just get married and give her citizenship but if she truly wont do this then you have done all you can do then there is nothing more you can do.  It takes two people to get married and if she isn't going as far out of her to way to do it as your are then that isn't your fault.  The bill really isn't your concern here, it sounds like even if she could just walk into a coffee shop and get her visa there would still be a bunch of other stipulations to this marriage.  Just saying, not trying to harsh your buzz or ruin a relation ship here, but both sides need to be looked at before making a big decision like marriage.

[Captain Electric]

Well, my political leanings are wacky theory-crafting things which are tempered by the belief that our civilization is primitive; I vote for candidates, but I vote based on how many of my own interests they're likely to further during a term. It's complicated, and it sometimes leads to me voting for candidates whose politics are foundationally opposed to my own. But in 500 years, no one will care about today's health care. I just want people to still be around in 500 years. And if I had my way, everyone would vote their interests. I personally know people who will vote their parties interests before their own, for such mundane reasons as the fear of familial disapproval, or the general IQ-reducing spectre of groupthink. I do not believe these people fully understand what's at stake, incrementally, in the long term. Rust's history lesson about the Gauls is wonderful.

The real reason I came in here is to say that I'm extremely impressed by the maturity, respectfulness, and (some) open-mindedness of this discussion (which is all you can ever hope for). It has been a pleasure to read, and one more reason this community is a step above the rest.

[ukaserex]

I think that the parents are being...well, they are thinking, I would say.
 For me, if it were my daughter, her love for her man isn't quite enough. He must love her as well - and for me, part of that love is the ability to provide, particularly if my daughter were going to be half way around the world where I couldn't help her in a timely manner if she needed it. From a parental perspective, the bachelors degree provides some measure of character: Resourcefulness, persistence and determination. Good tools to have in any job market. I'm not saying that they are right, realistic or evil and unromantic or any combination thereof. They just....well, they just are the way they are and feel the way they feel, much like any of us.

My first reaction about the parents as I read through the thread, they don't want their daughter to get married because she loves America, they want their daughter to get married because she loves her fiance. I'm not at all up on the cultural differences a Chinese couple might have about this situation, so of course, I could be as clueless about this as I was about hold magnification difference between blasters and controllers before @Pickle gave me an education about it.

As for the immigration bill, like any governmental measure, it won't solve all our immigration issues. No single bill/law can. Is it a step in the right direction? That's tough for me to say. I think that's tough for anyone to know, one way or another.

As for helping her get a job, honestly, I tell this to everyone I know - as it's the way I got the job I have now. Have every friend and family member you know ask every friend they have if there is anyone they know who actually does the hiring that will give her a chance. That is how most jobs are gotten today - by networking. Dropping an application in today is like waging war on greenpeace. It's just a waste of paper. Managers today are doing more work for less pay just like everyone else. Filtering through applications is almost a lost art, so managers (in general) rely heavily upon references from people they know, friends or co-workers.
I wish you both well. Just remember that love is an action, and not an emotion and you'll do fine.

[sawlight88]

im against it for the reason that as a natural born United States citizen, if i break the law in any regard even a speeding ticket. i get no amnesty. that also means if i get caught smoking a joint im going in for it. people commit a felony by entering the county illegally and were supposed to just let them off the hook?

further, this is a symptom of a greater problem in the United States. anyone from around the world should be allowed to come here and roam freely. but that is complicated by the fact that American's are now defined by their Social Security Number. the identification process, or if one is even legal needs to be addressed. the greater problem here being identity theft. the federal government is required to protect its citizens. so if it wants to identify people the fed MUST protect those identities BEFORE acquiring new ones.

but at the end of the day, nothing will be made of this immigration/amnesty debated. it will go no where in any branch of the federal government because no one really favors the issue. just the other night i was watching the O'reilly Factor and a member of the Black Caucus was on his show saying their not voting for amnesty because it hurts the black community.

case closed.

[Rust]

FOX News manufactures its own narrative to suit the ideals of its owner. Murdoch has admitted as much time and again.

The problem with FOX News, and indeed all 24 Hour News Networks, is that they mislabel themselves as "News" when in fact, they are actually "Opinionated Editorial" Networks. Bill O'Reilly and whomever he has on his show are speaking for no one beyond Bill O'Reilly and whomever he has on his show, in the boundaries set out by Murdoch in order to shape public opinion.

Bill O'Reilly was the host of Inside Edition. Glenn Beck's origin lay as a morning drive Shock Jock who hired a playboy bunny to do the weather. These aren't individuals with extensive careers in journalism, but entertainers paid to spin a good yarn and make their mandated position look viable.

After all, Bill O'Reilly was the man who argued that Christianity was not a religion, but a philosophy in order to counter an Atheist's point.

[sawlight88]

setting aside a debate over the merits of Fox News, the fact is they do get interviews with elected officials. even if only to show us how dumb they are.

i was just using the interview with Bill O as an example of how immigration is dead on arrival. it could be pushed through but the government has been illegitimate for years

[Rust]

A comedy show gets interviews with elected officials. It doesn't mean much. A elected official's involvement is more dependent on the size of the check then any sort of legitimacy.

As for Immigration, I don't think it's Dead on Arrival - but neither do I feel it's altruistic. Corporations have just gotten tired of jumping through legal hoops to hire on migrant workers, and thus are "legitimizing" their worker base. Nothing at all about society will change (As immigrants do the jobs no one else wants to begin with), the only difference is Corporations will no longer get the slap on the wrist for hiring illegals.

[Mantic]

I am a Republican and an Atheist. Lately I don't much like my party's leaders, but theirs remains the closest political platform to my own positions in this country.

Rust pretty much nailed what is behind all this legal maneuvering on the issue: corporate self-interest, and nothing more.

Your underage girlfriend has other options. If she were old enough to be making a decision on her citizenship, she would be free to pursue it normally (or at least to maintain her student visa long enough to become a legal adult and begin the process, if that's her intent). It seems to me that if she were serious about that intent, she would not be telling you that it ends with her next return to China. People don't just abandon things they care about (though teenagers leave summer flings in a foreign land behind them all the time).

[Kyriani]

[Rust]

Sweden also have a two year mandatory military service, with prison time for "Draft Dodgers". I remember back in college we had a Swedish Transfer student who didn't want to do military service and so stalled up his return with Visa negotiations (He may have even tried asking for asylum, I can't recall - it's been about ten years ago). When he was finally forced to return, he was looking at possible prison time because he'd missed his mandatory sign up date.

I mention this because no system is "perfect". But I do agree that our elected officials should wear jumpsuits like NASCAR has, so we can see at a glance who is funding them.

[Kyriani]

Sweden also have a two year mandatory military service, with prison time for "Draft Dodgers". I remember back in college we had a Swedish Transfer student who didn't want to do military service and so stalled up his return with Visa negotiations (He may have even tried asking for asylum, I can't recall - it's been about ten years ago). When he was finally forced to return, he was looking at possible prison time because he'd missed his mandatory sign up date.

I mention this because no system is "perfect". But I do agree that our elected officials should wear jumpsuits like NASCAR has, so we can see at a glance who is funding them.

I agree no system is perfect but that shouldnt stop us from trying to make something better. With that said your info is a bit out of date.

Since 1901, Military Service was mandatory in Sweden until July 1st 2010 when conscription was officially suspended during peace time. Until 2010, all Swedish men aged between 18 and 47 years old were eligible to serve with the armed forces over a period ranging from 80 to 450 days. The right to Conscientious Objection was legally recognised in 1920. An alternative community service for Conscientious Objectors was easily available instead of military service. The number of those seeking conscientious objector status declined as actual conscript recruitment continued to decline. In the years running up to 2010 roughly 6000 - 8000 people out of an annual cohort of 100,000 - 120,000 potential recruits actually completed military service.

[Ironwolf]

What I see so very many missing in debates about our government is the original purpose of the government:

To provide a framework for freedom and individual responsibility. This link http://www.foundingfathers.info/federalistpapers/ will give you the documents our countries founders used to write our Constitution and other documents. I see people keep turning to the government time and again when throughout the history of the nation it is the people not the government who help each other.

Our current government has zero respect for the law. They lie to congress during testamony, they spy on us without limit, they refuse to slow down and actually have debates about issues that affect us in very personal ways.

Look at the IRS scandal - a party in power used the IRS to intimidate members of the public who disagreed with the government. This wasn't made up they actually did it - the IRS publically apologized for it. Now understand the FBI has not contacted a single Tea Party group - they were asked to investigate and instead they are stalling and the entire Justice department is in collusion with the President and his administration. Let's turn the clock forward 4 years - let us say a Republican wins and is President - the IRS now handles your healthcare. What happens if these same corrupt federal employees now target Liberals and refuse to give them proper healthcare? They never say no, they just stonewall and delay.

This is the potential we face - the fact we let ANY politician or federal employee have power beyond the scope granted in the Constitution. The Constitution was written to protect the people from our government. We have let the government use loopholes and greed to grasp more and more power. Normally I don't agreed with term limitations but our government is so far out of control they need to have a total limit for governmental service of 20 years - period. Idiots like Sander Levin whose Brother is in charge of the IRS investigation and who sent repeated letters to the IRS asking them to harass the Tea Party groups!

http://fox40.com/2013/05/10/following-tea-party-complaints-irs-admits-mistakes/

http://blogs.detroitnews.com/politics/2013/05/16/michigan-tea-party-head-obamas-irs-narrative-defies-credibility/

What we have now in Washington is the foxes in charge of the henhouse and they just ask us who is for dinner today? They carve out money for their friends who then give them jobs for friends and families for the money. Look at all the green nonsense money thrown away by the billions. I obviously don't want dirty water, air or land. How about instead spend money on proven technology.

[Kyriani]

[Ironwolf]

I will agree it is ALL of the politicians who are causing this regardless of party.

Now your list of givers and takers - Those blue states are hugely in debt - California is over $16 billion in debt. Those red states are very poor on the whole and yet they are tasked with giving out all the same entitlements the richer states do. Compare texas to California. Take a look at Indiana - they actually setup health saving accounts for all state employees and invited all living in the state to join the group if they wish.

Look lets face it the true measure today is how much money do I bring back to my state. There is a serious problem with our current government and believe it or not it was started by our first Socialist President Woodrow Wilson. He foisted the 17th amendment on us that elected Senators by popular vote not as selected by the state. Before this most Senators were appointed by the Governor or State Senators. This alters the entire scope of government. Now the Senate becomes overlords like the Parliment in England and the Congress the House of Commons.

This was in no means what was intended. They were all to hold each other in balance. That is how the Senate completely changed a bill the House passed to become Obamacare. It is no longer a government of laws. They do what they will and to hell with us.

[Kyriani]

I will agree it is ALL of the politicians who are causing this regardless of party.

Now your list of givers and takers - Those blue states are hugely in debt - California is over $16 billion in debt. Those red states are very poor on the whole and yet they are tasked with giving out all the same entitlements the richer states do. Compare texas to California. Take a look at Indiana - they actually setup health saving accounts for all state employees and invited all living in the state to join the group if they wish.

Look lets face it the true measure today is how much money do I bring back to my state. There is a serious problem with our current government and believe it or not it was started by our first Socialist President Woodrow Wilson. He foisted the 17th amendment on us that elected Senators by popular vote not as selected by the state. Before this most Senators were appointed by the Governor or State Senators. This alters the entire scope of government. Now the Senate becomes overlords like the Parliment in England and the Congress the House of Commons.

This was in no means what was intended. They were all to hold each other in balance. That is how the Senate completely changed a bill the House passed to become Obamacare. It is no longer a government of laws. They do what they will and to hell with us.

I can't really disagree with alot of what you say. I just wanted it to be clear that it isnt one party or the other doing bad things. Both of them are and it sucks. I wish we could have a real third party that finally knocks the socks off of both reps and the dems and brings about a golden age in the United States.