How does one keep from giving up?

[Omega Mark V]

As simplistic as it sounds: Just keep up hope. "Keep the flame alive" as people have said.

Good things generally take some time; the different 'plan z' initiatives launched because CoH was closed. Our community is pushing for companies to purchase the CoH IP. We're here because this closure brought us together.

Everything really isn't that bad. Sure, it's one half of a year since CoH closed, but I just wait and keep my chin up for something good to happen. It's the best we can all do at this point, other than help out when we can.

[Twisted Toon]

I'll just add that pure cussed stubbornness is a good way to keep going. Even if it seems hopeless, unless you've actively got something better to do that this is interfering with, it's not worth admitting it's hopeless, because hey, stubborn persistence can win!

When you get down to it, Hope is really just a choice. You can choose to be hopeful, or you can choose to give up. Sometimes, it is very difficult to remain hopeful and that's where pure cussed stubbornness comes in handy.

[LadyVamp]

I didn't say it would be easy.  I know it's hard to keep hope when it's all you have but the effort dies only if we let it.  Not everyone will be able to put forth much help in this either. 

I'm all for starting our own little LLC, hire some devs, graphics artists, a project manager, an accountant, support, rent some space (maybe a virtual office to keep costs down), build our project and turn them loose developing it.  If we own the company, we get the say on how it goes.  And we might even make some money in the process.  We'd have to find angel investors to start or cough up the money ourselves.

I've proposed that already.  We could also build it as an open source project.  The possibilities are wide open.  We probably have a good chunk of the talent we need for either idea to move forward.  I admit I haven't looked too closely at what efforts are being done.  Right now, I believe Plan Z is our best hope at the moment.  Their solution should get us close to what we had.

The original question of this thread was, "How does one keep from giving up?"  I shared how I do it when I feel like saying the hell with it.  I don't know if we'll succeed if we take action.  I know we fail if we give up.

[Golden Girl]

Right now, I believe Plan Z is our best hope at the moment.  Their solution should get us close to what we had.

That's exactly what we're aiming for with "Heroes and Villains".

[downix]

I didn't say it would be easy.  I know it's hard to keep hope when it's all you have but the effort dies only if we let it.  Not everyone will be able to put forth much help in this either. 

I'm all for starting our own little LLC, hire some devs, graphics artists, a project manager, an accountant, support, rent some space (maybe a virtual office to keep costs down), build our project and turn them loose developing it.  If we own the company, we get the say on how it goes.  And we might even make some money in the process.  We'd have to find angel investors to start or cough up the money ourselves.

I've proposed that already.  We could also build it as an open source project.  The possibilities are wide open.  We probably have a good chunk of the talent we need for either idea to move forward.  I admit I haven't looked too closely at what efforts are being done.  Right now, I believe Plan Z is our best hope at the moment.  Their solution should get us close to what we had.

The original question of this thread was, "How does one keep from giving up?"  I shared how I do it when I feel like saying the hell with it.  I don't know if we'll succeed if we take action.  I know we fail if we give up.

That is how Missing Worlds Media is set up, only we are aiming for a Kickstarter. If you wish to do an open source option, I would recommend tapping one of the existing engines, such as Multiverse or Torque3D for it.

[JaguarX]

I'm all for starting our own little LLC, hire some devs, graphics artists, a project manager, an accountant, support, rent some space (maybe a virtual office to keep costs down), build our project and turn them loose developing it.  If we own the company, we get the say on how it goes.  And we might even make some money in the process.  We'd have to find angel investors to start or cough up the money ourselves.

That would be awesome.

On the other hand, not many if any investor angel or not, is going to "invest"-which usually in the business world mean with expected returns of what they put in with growth of their money, if we appear to not know much about what  we are doing and or seem not so much business savy.

Quite frankly we come off as activists than business. Most people looking to invest dont invest-classical definition of investment- in activist groups. They donate and then write it off on their tax returns. And sometimes that donation isnt free to get it from the big fish.

I think we could cough up money ourselves. Hell, people is all about investing. They invested thousands into the game according to their own words. $1,000 times the population that might be here on this forum, $10,000-$20,000 total miniumum. Then of course we have some more wll to do people out there that could give $5,000-$10,000 and the amount of English professors in the COX community, I know they bank money for sure assuming they are who they say they are. We could easily do at least to $90,000 in one swoop within a few days it takes some to either get that type of money together. Off the claimed English professors giving $5,000 (chump change to them it should be.) a piece could rake in $80,000 just them alone.

[LadyVamp]

That is how Missing Worlds Media is set up, only we are aiming for a Kickstarter. If you wish to do an open source option, I would recommend tapping one of the existing engines, such as Multiverse or Torque3D for it.

I'd say great minds think alike if someone has already setup the structure.

[downix]

I'd say great minds think alike if someone has already setup the structure.

We're set up as a corporation instead of an LLC, but otherwise, yes.

[LadyVamp]

That would be awesome.

On the other hand, not many if any investor angel or not, is going to "invest"-which usually in the business world mean with expected returns of what they put in with growth of their money, if we appear to not know much about what  we are doing and or seem not so much business savy.

Quite frankly we come off as activists than business. Most people looking to invest dont invest-classical definition of investment- in activist groups. They donate and then write it off on their tax returns. And sometimes that donation isnt free to get it from the big fish.

I think we could cough up money ourselves. Hell, people is all about investing. They invested thousands into the game according to their own words. $1,000 times the population that might be here on this forum, $10,000-$20,000 total miniumum. Then of course we have some more wll to do people out there that could give $5,000-$10,000 and the amount of English professors in the COX community, I know they bank money for sure assuming they are who they say they are. We could easily do at least to $90,000 in one swoop within a few days it takes some to either get that type of money together. Off the claimed English professors giving $5,000 (chump change to them it should be.) a piece could rake in $80,000 just them alone.

I don't see us as activists.  I see us as customers who aren't satisfied with current offerings.  It certainly would take a core mgmt team with serious business savvy.  Likely we have a few who are the right calibre to pull it off. 

I think our best approach is to pour money into "Heroes and Villains" so they can pull in the talent they need to pull this off.  I wouldn't go form an LLC or a corp unless it became necessary.

Golden Girl, how well structured is the project?  What's the mgmt team look like?  how about the project plan? wbs? and other project related docs?  Is all of that publicly available?

I'm also wondering how many active accounts we have here and how many people would be willing to pour money, time, skills, etc into this.  I knew players who had as many as 4 monthly paying accounts in coh.  The money shouldn't be hard to raise.

[downix]

I don't see us as activists.  I see us as customers who aren't satisfied with current offerings.  It certainly would take a core mgmt team with serious business savvy.  Likely we have a few who are the right calibre to pull it off. 

I think our best approach is to pour money into "Heroes and Villains" so they can pull in the talent they need to pull this off.  I wouldn't go form an LLC or a corp unless it became necessary.

Golden Girl, how well structured is the project?  What's the mgmt team look like?  how about the project plan? wbs? and other project related docs?  Is all of that publicly available?

I'm also wondering how many active accounts we have here and how many people would be willing to pour money, time, skills, etc into this.  I knew players who had as many as 4 monthly paying accounts in coh.  The money shouldn't be hard to raise.

Out of curiosity, why H&V over TPP or VO?

[JaguarX]

I don't see us as activists.  I see us as customers who aren't satisfied with current offerings.  It certainly would take a core mgmt team with serious business savvy.  Likely we have a few who are the right calibre to pull it off. 

I think our best approach is to pour money into "Heroes and Villains" so they can pull in the talent they need to pull this off.  I wouldn't go form an LLC or a corp unless it became necessary.

Golden Girl, how well structured is the project?  What's the mgmt team look like?  how about the project plan? wbs? and other project related docs?  Is all of that publicly available?

I'm also wondering how many active accounts we have here and how many people would be willing to pour money, time, skills, etc into this.  I knew players who had as many as 4 monthly paying accounts in coh.  The money shouldn't be hard to raise.

Yup.

also anyone thought about, what perks might be available for said investors? Or is it more of dontation and pat on the back method that is in mind. Neither one is bad but before even collecting a cent, that should have to be clear up front. Definately dont want it to come back and bite anyone that is running one of the three or any other project.

[downix]

Yup.

also anyone thought about, what perks might be available for said investors? Or is it more of dontation and pat on the back method that is in mind. Neither one is bad but before even collecting a cent, that should have to be clear up front. Definately dont want it to come back and bite anyone that is running one of the three or any other project.

Perks are a delicate balance. I know we spent over a month developing our perks for the KS.

[Golden Girl]

I don't see us as activists.  I see us as customers who aren't satisfied with current offerings.  It certainly would take a core mgmt team with serious business savvy.  Likely we have a few who are the right calibre to pull it off. 

I think our best approach is to pour money into "Heroes and Villains" so they can pull in the talent they need to pull this off.  I wouldn't go form an LLC or a corp unless it became necessary.

We're not going to - corporate scum took our first home from us - the last thing we're going to do is to have our second home follow the same path. "Heroes and Villains" is a community made and run project now and forever, and we're takign steps to make sure that the only people who'll find it attractive to invest in will be people who want to play the game, not people looking to make a profit.

Golden Girl, how well structured is the project?  What's the mgmt team look like?  how about the project plan? wbs? and other project related docs?  Is all of that publicly available?

As a community project, we've got a very relaxed structure - everyone shares the collective vision of the spiritual successor to CoH, so everyone's focused on the same path to acheive it.
There's a design framework that's been laid out, but it's not fully available to the community yet.

I'm also wondering how many active accounts we have here and how many people would be willing to pour money, time, skills, etc into this.  I knew players who had as many as 4 monthly paying accounts in coh.  The money shouldn't be hard to raise.

Currently, because of the way the project is set up and the quality of the talent attached to it, we don't actually need money to launch the game - however, more money would still spee dup the development process, and let us get community's new home up and running faster - and as we've been getting an increasing number of messages from the community asking how they can finanically help the project, sometime soon-ish, probably in the fall, we'll be setting up a donation system to let them do just that.
In the meantime, you can help spread the word around for anyone who's interested to set aside any potential donation money ready for the time when we open up the system for it.

[downix]

We're not going to - corporate scum took our first home from us - the last thing we're going to do is to have our second home follow the same path. "Heroes and Villains" is a community made and run project now and forever, and we're takign steps to make sure that the only people who'll find it attractive to invest in will be people who want to play the game, not people looking to make a profit.

Without setting up a corporation or LLC, then a corporate scum *can* take your home away from you, very easily. They only need to file a lawsuit against one of your contributors, and force an injunction of release against the entire project as a result. Without that legal framework, you will be powerless to defend your contributors.

A corporation is a tool, not an entity in and of itself. A community-centric corporation, such as the Linux Foundation or Missing Worlds Media, gives the protection needed while retaining the community centered nature desired. Think of a Credit Union. By law, it is still a corporation, but one where its members are also its shareholders, ensuring a focus on product, not profit.

[Golden Girl]

Without setting up a corporation or LLC, then a corporate scum *can* take your home away from you, very easily. They only need to file a lawsuit against one of your contributors, and force an injunction of release against the entire project as a result. Without that legal framework, you will be powerless to defend your contributors.

The way we're setting up the project, that won't be a problem.

[downix]

The way we're setting up the project, that won't be a problem.

Unless you incorporate or set up an LLC, then it is a problem.

[Osborn]

Corporation, as an in-theory generic legal theory isn't a problem, corporation as a 'got mine f' you' mind set is the problem. This is coming from somebody who's pretty far left.

As Downix said, the legal platform is useful insomuch as keeping things like he said from happening to you.

It's great that you don't want to follow the same mindset that lead to the policies that closed down the game you like, but not organizing the project you're heading in any way or heading any sort of legal framework for what happens if worst case happens, then you're basically setting up a time bomb.

The longer something lasts, the more likely it's going to roll that worst case scenario, so having a plan of action ahead of time is only really going to be beneficial.

Again, it's not so much the organizational method that is the problem, so much as what is done with it that could or not be one.

[JanessaVR]

Out of curiosity, why H&V over TPP or VO?

Indeed, TPP is the original project, with the most people working on it, and, from what I can see, the best organized and structured for development.  If I'm going to give $ to any of them, that would almost certainly be my choice, though VO is meriting a bit more of my attention these days.

[JanessaVR]

[Golden Girl]

Unless you incorporate or set up an LLC, then it is a problem.

Not the way we're doing it