Author Topic: How does one keep from giving up?  (Read 21827 times)

FenrirEX

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How does one keep from giving up?
« on: June 13, 2013, 04:44:04 AM »
It's been, what, five months since the shut down.  I've tried to keep hope, to not give up, but...it's getting hard to keep hoping for a miracle.  I miss the game so much, and I really don't know how to deal with the loss.

I should mention, I also have clinical depression, so it makes it hard to be optimistic sometimes.  So, I just want to know what to do.  Should I give up on the game proper coming back?  Should I put hope on the game being 'reborn' in a new team?  I just...I need something to fill this growing hole in my heart, even if it's just a little something to believe in.

Thanks for listening, and any constructive thoughts are very appreciated! :)

Kemphler

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2013, 05:01:44 AM »
There is so much in the works right now. The Plan Zs are making great progress towards successor games, and if Codewalker's work with the Icon program is any indication, there are people out there making progress towards the game proper. As for a true game studio picking the game up and us having a full fledged development team again like we had under Paragon Studios?...Well, I truthfully don't think that is going to come back, but a maintenance mode of sorts seems likely within the next year, assuming people have made the same progress or faster with CoH as someone has made with another killed off game called Auto Assault (and considering the progress from nothing done to nearly able to call it a game again for Auto Assault was done in a little over a year by one person, if there is a team working on CoH, I don't see why we couldn't have it soon.) Mind you, I could be tossing complete exposition out when it comes to the idea of a CoH private server, but I've got a good feeling about it. If you want something a little more solid to put hope in though the Plan Zs, being The Phoenix Project, Heroes and Villains, and Valiance Online, they would be a good place to put said hope.
"I intend to live forever, or die trying." - Groucho Marx

JaguarX

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2013, 05:07:40 AM »
It's been, what, five months since the shut down.  I've tried to keep hope, to not give up, but...it's getting hard to keep hoping for a miracle.  I miss the game so much, and I really don't know how to deal with the loss.

I should mention, I also have clinical depression, so it makes it hard to be optimistic sometimes.  So, I just want to know what to do.  Should I give up on the game proper coming back?  Should I put hope on the game being 'reborn' in a new team?  I just...I need something to fill this growing hole in my heart, even if it's just a little something to believe in.

Thanks for listening, and any constructive thoughts are very appreciated! :)

Well I guess I'll let you in on this secret since I guess it wont hurt any.

I'm considered a manic despression which is basically the psych's people nice way of saying bipolar (Axis I mood disorder) aggrevated by (aka not the believed to be the cause but may be part of it) whacky thyroid (just under clinical overactive thyroid.). Which means I get some of the symptoms of hyperthyroid and they know it's hyperactive but not hyperactive enought to risk doing something about it and potentially destroying it. Anything above 65 I'm sweating, cant sleep, sometimes for days, and when I do sleep I never feel rested whether I sleep 4 hours or 19, always have to eat, always thirsty, when I do eat there is always a lingering nausiated feeling, but if I dont eat I feel like I'm starving, and cant gain a pound no matter how much I eat even with rock bottom activity level that would cause most other people to balloon into a tub of blubber.

So even all of that, waking up, some days wondering why the pancake am I here, feeling like a zombie and eye lids weighing 300 pounds, sometimes there is no way to think optimistic that I can find. Yet, I must keep going. I'm not sure why or how, but I believe there is a purpose and soemtimes only thing that keeps me going, honestly, is pure sheer morbid curiosity of what the near future brings. Maybe the game will come back maybe it wont, but out of curiosity I sure as hell want to find out.

There is three projects being worked on and if it helps with your hope, know that they are past a stage that many games never see even with full studio and millions to spend. One way or another, the game will be reborn. You will fly again. Stick around. It will take a while but watch it unfold and soon enough all of this will behind us and we'll be playing 1-3 games of COX reborn. That I think is a certainty.

And if there is a bonus drop, maybe somewhere somehow the real COX will be back too by then i24 and all.

Segev

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2013, 12:58:48 PM »
I'll just add that pure cussed stubbornness is a good way to keep going. Even if it seems hopeless, unless you've actively got something better to do that this is interfering with, it's not worth admitting it's hopeless, because hey, stubborn persistence can win!

OzonePrime

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2013, 01:18:36 PM »
I'll just add that pure cussed stubbornness is a good way to keep going. Even if it seems hopeless, unless you've actively got something better to do that this is interfering with, it's not worth admitting it's hopeless, because hey, stubborn persistence can win!

Exactly!

mrultimate

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SARobb

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2013, 02:17:36 PM »
Exactly!
^
qft

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Randomvector

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2013, 02:19:12 PM »
For me there is these facts:

Hellgate:London closed and was reborn
APB was closed and was reborn
Ryzom closed and reopened a couple times.
Asherons Call 2 closed and reopened 7 years later.

and if those games can come back I will always hope ours will as well.

ANd if not, SWG has an Emulator, Everquest has an emulator, etc. I am sure an emulator will surface for our home as well.

Surelle

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2013, 02:54:10 AM »
Well I guess I'll let you in on this secret since I guess it wont hurt any.

I'm considered a manic despression which is basically the psych's people nice way of saying bipolar (Axis I mood disorder) aggrevated by (aka not the believed to be the cause but may be part of it) whacky thyroid (just under clinical overactive thyroid.).

I'm really glad you realize the thyroid problem connection there.  My ex is bipolar and my daughter got weighted down with it majorly in her late teens.  Blood work came back negative on the thyroid through a regular hospital because she has one hyperthyroid and one hypothyroid so they balance each other out in the blood work.  Finally I took her to a Naturopath, who found it right away.  They do Chinese medicine, a lot of looking through the irises of the eyes and pulse taking and such.

She is on sepia, homeopathic remedy 30c pellets, 5 of them, 3x a day, plus Relax-Eze (Dr. Christopher's formula, even Amazon has it) and a female reproductive formula of Dr. Christopher's too.

I know those are more for female thyroid/bipolar though.  Males I think take Nox Vomica (sometimes called Nux Vomica) homeopathic, and I'm not sure what else.  But you should definitely touch base with a Naturopathic physician.  Why suffer when you don't have to?  You can beat that thyroid back.  Believe me, if my daughter can do it, anyone can.  She was pretty bad off for years and we couldn't find out what was wrong.  I tried so many doctors, sheesh.  If it wasn't for the Naturopath we'd still be screwed, lol.

Oh yeah, essential fatty acids (Omega 3s, 6s and 9s) help a lot too.  We do one tablespoon a day of flax seed oil (Barleans, in the black bottle from the refrigerator section of the health food store) in juice too.  You can make salad dressings with it, just don't heat it because it kills the good in it.  Google it for bipolar if you don't believe me.  Everyone can use more essential fatty acids actually.  They do you and your immune system a world of good.

Sorry for the thread derail.  Carry on!

Lucretia MacEvil

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2013, 04:40:55 AM »
Fenrir, I'm also clinically depressed, and, since I'm not much of a gamer, CoX's closure left a big hole for me, too.  At first, it was tempting to give up, but reading and writing on these boards and seeing all the great stuff that the Plan Zs have come up with helps me a lot.  Fortunately, I also have a stubborn streak, and I've been putting it to good use with the CoX campaign.  I'm GOING to get my city back!  I know I may just be dreaming, but hey, why not dream?

Besides, from a practical standpoint, what do we have to lose?  NCsoft dealt our community a huge blow by closing our game.  It was the worst thing they could do to us. 

And y'know what?  Their worst wasn't enough.  In spite of everything, the community is still here, and its members are working to build us not one, but three new homes.  We made it through the worst of the worst. 

I also find a considerable measure of delight and amusement in the irony of the situation;  the SuperPowered MMO genre will actually expand as a result of the closure of our beloved City due to the 3 Plan Z games.  With all the superhero films that have become popular recently, a little fan-driven PR and advertising could make this genre HUGE!  And NCsoft can't really get in on it because who would trust them with a superhero game after they axed ours like that?  Their callous and abrupt closure of our game is going to back-fire big time, and all of us are going to be there to see it.

Keep flying high, and I'll see you in the sky!

Taceus Jiwede

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2013, 07:15:36 AM »
Try to treat it like a person you really care about, but never get to see for whatever reason it is.  The best thing you can do is accept that you wont be able to see them today and then focus on what else is around you in your life.  If you think about it too much it can destroy you, create sort of an internal warfare.  So you put in the back of your mind.  It is hard to do, it will take a little more of that internal warfare that is raging to subdue and focus on the moment around you.  Work, hobbies, family, friends, perhaps another game that keeps your interest(just don't try to compare it to CoH) but you can set aside the game in your mind and your heart.  Not forgetting about it.  Just storing it away for the time being.  You put your heart into other things, anything really.  If it gives you strength or happiness or just takes your mind off things.  Do it death put all your heart in it, except for that little spot you set aside for the game.  Eventually it will become easier and easier to not think about.  The gap will fill but it won't fill that little spot you put aside for CoH.  And like the person we compared to at the start of the post you just hope that maybe you can see them again one day for old time's sake.

Uncertainty is a heck of a thing, that is why these gaps are created.  Because something we had, that was certain or good is removed.  And there is no way to exactly replace that feeling.  At best it will be replaced with a similar feeling and this makes it hard to not give up hope.  This feeling alone creates such a painful feeling that leaves you wanting what you had, not looking forward to what may be.  And it is very hard to move forward mentally, emotionally, and sometimes even physically with this crushing emotion.  It is like a wet rug on your soul and thoughts, I know the feeling. 

One of the big things to help shrug this rug, is to accept that feelings and emotions are powerful things, they can drop the greatest of men and woman to their knees, make the most rational person completely insane, and they can slam the brakes on everything around you.  Accepting that emotions won't always be pleasant or rational and that those are just part of the experience of life helps you shrug them and move on to the next one knowing there will be other good times, and other bad times.  Live, laugh, and love during the good times and tough out the bad times.  I think that the bad times define you just as much as the good times if not more.  It shows you how much you can handle, how much weight can be held on your shoulders, regardless of what it is.  If it is heavy to you that is all that matter.  Then when this weight is off the trees a little greener, the wind a little cooler(or warmer) and the sky a little bluer.

My post got a little off topic but dealing with loss and not giving up hope I don't feel are things that can be applied to specific things in life.  But to the picture as a whole.  To quote Winston Churchill(I think have done it before same quote)
Quote
If you find yourself walking in hell, just keep walking.

That quote stood out to me the first time I heard it.  It was the first time I understood what people would mean when they would say "Live for the moment" etc etc.  I took it to mean if you are in a bad place and you stop you will continue to be in a bad place.  But if you keep moving forward you can get to a better place.  How I took that to mean "Live for today" in anyway at all is.  Just focus on making today the best possible day you can so tomorrow(which will be today eventually)can be even better then today.

I hope it helps. bit of a ramble.  Stay strong my friend.

Triplash

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2013, 11:24:50 AM »
I hear you, my friend. I spent a good ten years of my life under the hold of a serious depression. I know where you're coming from when you say it can be hard to be optimistic. Like Segev said, what you need is some sheer, cement-headed stubbornness. Refuse to let negativity have another day.

In my experience, the way to hold onto hope is to focus on the ways something can work. Once you find that out, the only question left is how can I make sure it works? Remove the obstacles one at a time, and arrange the circumstances to give success the best possible chance. And if you personally can't make those changes, then you support the people who can. Give them what they need to stay focused or encouraged. Sometimes, like with us here, all that means is to be there saying things like "Cool!" and "Thanks!" and giving them feedback when they ask our opinions.

First off, look at the Icon program Codewalker has made (link in case you haven't seen it). It's like freaking magic how good it feels just to watch your character moving around in the city again, with sound and the ability to control your movement. Granted, from what he's said, Icon won't be the program that lets us play it as a game again... for technical reasons that I don't really understand (and probably couldn't even pronounce, hehe).  But that's not the point. Look at what he's accomplished with it. Now realize that the people working on the playable version are making those same kinds of progress. They're just not showing it to us, because they don't want to risk their work being stopped midway. Once it's usable they'll get it out to us. These people have the same feelings of longing that we do to get back into Paragon City and fight Circle of Thorns and Longbow again. But they have the technical skills to do something about it, and they're using those skills as we speak.

Each of the Plan Z projects look like they're going to be really cool, too. With three different takes on a superhero game, most of us are bound to like at least one of them. I foresee a lot of people liking and playing all three. Their teams are all filled with passionate and skilled people, and are being lead by former players of the same game we love. Two of the teams are completely made up of those players. They all remember what made Paragon City great and their goal is to put that influence into the new cities.

So what we need to focus on is supporting these different groups. And if we can't support them technically, then by $deity we'll support them in spirit! Because they do know what to do, and they do know how to do it. All we need to do is to show them that we're here and we're eager to use what they're making. Even if we're not here all day every day, we're ready to come back when the time is right.

As for the game officially coming back, well... there are reasons to say a cautious 'maybe' instead of a definite 'no', but the chances are slim. The current owners just don't seem interested in negotiating. However that doesn't mean it will never be playable again. We just might have to celebrate quietly, amongst ourselves, when it happens. ;)

Stormsurge

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2013, 03:37:11 PM »
The current owners will eventually make enough poorly made business decisions that they'll have no choice but to sell the rights for it. And when they do, the company that picks it up will reopen it.

Spatch1971

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2013, 05:08:40 PM »
It's been, what, five months since the shut down.  I've tried to keep hope, to not give up, but...it's getting hard to keep hoping for a miracle.  I miss the game so much, and I really don't know how to deal with the loss.

I should mention, I also have clinical depression, so it makes it hard to be optimistic sometimes.  So, I just want to know what to do.  Should I give up on the game proper coming back?  Should I put hope on the game being 'reborn' in a new team?  I just...I need something to fill this growing hole in my heart, even if it's just a little something to believe in.

Thanks for listening, and any constructive thoughts are very appreciated! :)

I completely sympathize.  I suffer from chronic anxiety and related depression...so bad it's gotten to the point where my doctors have taken me off work.  CoH has been a wonderful therapeutic experience for me over the years, a virtual world I could visit that, temporarily anyways, blunted the symptoms of my illness.  To date, I haven't found anything to fill the hole CoH's cancellation has left, and it's been a difficult six months.

But, I maintain a flicker of optimism CoH will be back.  The community here remains reasonably vibrant and strong for a game six months dead.  Elsewhere in another thread, a poster listed four or five MMOGs that were rezzed from oblivion.   And, don't forget the TV show Family Guy, rezzed after a few years of its initial cancellation.  There is precedent.  It IS possible for CoH to rise from the ashes.  It's this possibility I cling to.

pogoman

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2013, 09:49:28 PM »
I do my show, Save CoH Radio, every week because I REFUSE to give up! We have to keep hoping, because without hope, there is no tomorrow. I've heard stories bout school kids reading improving from this game, social anxieties overcome because of CoX, other ailments dealt with BECAUSE of CoH. If there is ANYTHING to keep hoping for and hold onto it is the return of CoH! That's what keeps me from giving up.
Keep fighting the good fight and don't stop believing!
We are heroes, this is what we do!

AlphaFerret

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2013, 10:50:24 PM »
If Anarchy Online can keep on rolling, CoH deserves to live again.

downix

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2013, 10:56:28 PM »
If Anarchy Online can keep on rolling, CoH deserves to live again.
AO is also getting a major engine update. Have you *seen* the new graphics?

JaguarX

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2013, 12:25:30 AM »
If Anarchy Online can keep on rolling, CoH deserves to live again.
yup except that game reached 700,000 subs in late 2004, when WoW didnt even that many. Then when it went to F2P, it is stated that 400,000 more people came on board and by the next year it hit the one million mark.

Higher than expected profits wass reported in 2006, keyword there is probably expected and remained steady for three years. 2009, it said it started to decline slowly. COX peaked at about 180,000 in 2008 time period and declined after that to the stated population of game closure said by some to be 60,000-80,000. about 100,000 lost in about 4 years or about 25,000 a year gone between that time period. And may have dropped even further than that if Freedom did indeed raise the population to the stated closure population level.

Expectations-TSW expectations- healthy sub retention rate is 490,000 subs

What is considered poor subscription retention to them (Funcom) is what is categorized as the  Age of Conan scenario- 280,000 subs average.

Which if COX was part of that group scenario it would have been considered utterly under performing to their expectations.

Although in this same report is says that Conan is cash flow positive. But to their credit, they didnt shut down Conan, they just made some changes and remarketed it under the title of Age of Conan: Unchained. Key word- market to give it a fair shake to improve. And guess what? In 2011 the Conan Unchained doubled it's subscriptions (300,000) NEW players added since the rerelease. See, soemtimes a little marketing and trying a bit to get it where it should be does work.


But with all that said above, City should still be kicking at least given a fair shake ot actually improve instead of making those great improvements but yet basically keeping it a secret.




But side note- didnt the engine upgrade happen in March 2012? Not to mention is said they did a server merge in 2013. Seems like Funcom knew how to turn things around and if COX was in their hands instead of COX I think they probably would have put forth more effort to ensure success.

LadyVamp

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2013, 04:04:50 AM »
I don't know if this will help but when I feel like giving up I close my eyes and imagine myself standing before my toons.  I'm on stage, and I look out into the audience where they are.  And I look at each one's face.  I know that I cannot give up on them.  They lend me their strength and cry out with one voice:

"No Surrender!"

Call me crazy if you must but to me my toons are as real as any of you.  They are family.  I can't let go.  I can't give up.  I must find a way to keep them alive.  They live on in my heart and someday I will bring them forth into the world again.  They will live again!

I....We must do this for our toons.  For All our toons!

LV
No Surrender!

sinister8088

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2013, 06:23:56 AM »
Depends on point of view:

Keeping Paragon Studios opened, City of Heroes online? That ship has sailed, not much we can do.
Task Force Hail Mary? Losing momentum, VV gone since April (health issues?), and both campaigns were mostly ignored.  Again, not much we can do: efficacy of such campaigns exponentially drops as the time from the COH shutdown grows longer.  Rae is trying a third target, fingers crossed.  (I'm pessimistic on selling something you don't own yourself.  Comes from years of trying to offload government purchased and disposed E-Waste before letting "recyclers" have at it: unless someone has an explicit interest in it beforehand, it really is ice-skating uphill.)
Client reengineering?  Might or might not be at work, no timeline, promises, or guarantee that NCSoft will not C&D it to death.  Closest I think Titan Network will get to promoting it is Titan Icon, but past letting multiple clients connect to each other through any means is probably not going to be discussed on here.
Plan Z initiatives? Best hope, but it's a long shot (on any of the efforts: TPP, H&V, or Valiance).  Time, effort, and talent needed (and I can offer none myself.)  Funding I can offer, but at wage-slave levels, can't fund reengineering directly (nor can anyone), and The Phoenix Project won't mess with Kickstarter until this September.  Best I can offer is buying Titan Network a cup of coffee through PayPal at the moment, no other options are present.

It really depends on what you're after, and what level of winning that you are prepared to accept (The game as-is can't be saved from NCSoft's indication: would you like a private server that "changes the names to protect the innocent", or a spiritual successor that isn't the same game but has the same community?  Or is simply being on these forums with us proof enough for you that our cause is still alive?  That Atlas Park 33 still means something?  That "Go.  Hunt.  Kill Skuls" is an inside joke that only we get?)

I loved this game.  I love this community.  I'd love something to do on a Friday night.  With Plan Z, two out of three ain't bad.  I'm backing that horse in the race.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2013, 06:44:39 AM by sinister8088 »

Omega Mark V

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2013, 06:14:54 PM »
As simplistic as it sounds: Just keep up hope. "Keep the flame alive" as people have said.

Good things generally take some time; the different 'plan z' initiatives launched because CoH was closed. Our community is pushing for companies to purchase the CoH IP. We're here because this closure brought us together.

Everything really isn't that bad. Sure, it's one half of a year since CoH closed, but I just wait and keep my chin up for something good to happen. It's the best we can all do at this point, other than help out when we can.
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Twisted Toon

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2013, 06:20:31 PM »
I'll just add that pure cussed stubbornness is a good way to keep going. Even if it seems hopeless, unless you've actively got something better to do that this is interfering with, it's not worth admitting it's hopeless, because hey, stubborn persistence can win!
When you get down to it, Hope is really just a choice. You can choose to be hopeful, or you can choose to give up. Sometimes, it is very difficult to remain hopeful and that's where pure cussed stubbornness comes in handy. :)
Hope never abandons you, you abandon it. - George Weinberg

Hope ... is not a feeling; it is something you do. - Katherine Paterson

Nobody really cares if you're miserable, so you might as well be happy. - Cynthia Nelms

LadyVamp

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2013, 07:03:34 PM »
I didn't say it would be easy.  I know it's hard to keep hope when it's all you have but the effort dies only if we let it.  Not everyone will be able to put forth much help in this either. 

I'm all for starting our own little LLC, hire some devs, graphics artists, a project manager, an accountant, support, rent some space (maybe a virtual office to keep costs down), build our project and turn them loose developing it.  If we own the company, we get the say on how it goes.  And we might even make some money in the process.  We'd have to find angel investors to start or cough up the money ourselves.

I've proposed that already.  We could also build it as an open source project.  The possibilities are wide open.  We probably have a good chunk of the talent we need for either idea to move forward.  I admit I haven't looked too closely at what efforts are being done.  Right now, I believe Plan Z is our best hope at the moment.  Their solution should get us close to what we had.

The original question of this thread was, "How does one keep from giving up?"  I shared how I do it when I feel like saying the hell with it.  I don't know if we'll succeed if we take action.  I know we fail if we give up.
No Surrender!

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2013, 07:13:04 PM »
Right now, I believe Plan Z is our best hope at the moment.  Their solution should get us close to what we had.

That's exactly what we're aiming for with "Heroes and Villains".
"Heroes and Villains" website - http://www.heroes-and-villains.com
"Heroes and Villains" on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/HeroesAndVillainsMMORPG
"Heroes and Villains" on Twitter - https://twitter.com/Plan_Z_Studios
"Heroes and Villains" teaser trailer - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnjKqNPfFv8
Artwork - http://goldengirlcoh.deviantart.com

downix

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2013, 09:03:37 PM »
I didn't say it would be easy.  I know it's hard to keep hope when it's all you have but the effort dies only if we let it.  Not everyone will be able to put forth much help in this either. 

I'm all for starting our own little LLC, hire some devs, graphics artists, a project manager, an accountant, support, rent some space (maybe a virtual office to keep costs down), build our project and turn them loose developing it.  If we own the company, we get the say on how it goes.  And we might even make some money in the process.  We'd have to find angel investors to start or cough up the money ourselves.

I've proposed that already.  We could also build it as an open source project.  The possibilities are wide open.  We probably have a good chunk of the talent we need for either idea to move forward.  I admit I haven't looked too closely at what efforts are being done.  Right now, I believe Plan Z is our best hope at the moment.  Their solution should get us close to what we had.

The original question of this thread was, "How does one keep from giving up?"  I shared how I do it when I feel like saying the hell with it.  I don't know if we'll succeed if we take action.  I know we fail if we give up.
That is how Missing Worlds Media is set up, only we are aiming for a Kickstarter. If you wish to do an open source option, I would recommend tapping one of the existing engines, such as Multiverse or Torque3D for it.

JaguarX

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2013, 09:58:30 PM »


I'm all for starting our own little LLC, hire some devs, graphics artists, a project manager, an accountant, support, rent some space (maybe a virtual office to keep costs down), build our project and turn them loose developing it.  If we own the company, we get the say on how it goes.  And we might even make some money in the process.  We'd have to find angel investors to start or cough up the money ourselves.


That would be awesome.

On the other hand, not many if any investor angel or not, is going to "invest"-which usually in the business world mean with expected returns of what they put in with growth of their money, if we appear to not know much about what  we are doing and or seem not so much business savy.

Quite frankly we come off as activists than business. Most people looking to invest dont invest-classical definition of investment- in activist groups. They donate and then write it off on their tax returns. And sometimes that donation isnt free to get it from the big fish.

I think we could cough up money ourselves. Hell, people is all about investing. They invested thousands into the game according to their own words. $1,000 times the population that might be here on this forum, $10,000-$20,000 total miniumum. Then of course we have some more wll to do people out there that could give $5,000-$10,000 and the amount of English professors in the COX community, I know they bank money for sure assuming they are who they say they are. We could easily do at least to $90,000 in one swoop within a few days it takes some to either get that type of money together. Off the claimed English professors giving $5,000 (chump change to them it should be.) a piece could rake in $80,000 just them alone.

LadyVamp

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2013, 03:27:12 AM »
That is how Missing Worlds Media is set up, only we are aiming for a Kickstarter. If you wish to do an open source option, I would recommend tapping one of the existing engines, such as Multiverse or Torque3D for it.

I'd say great minds think alike if someone has already setup the structure.
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downix

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2013, 03:32:41 AM »
I'd say great minds think alike if someone has already setup the structure.
We're set up as a corporation instead of an LLC, but otherwise, yes.

LadyVamp

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2013, 03:47:28 AM »
That would be awesome.

On the other hand, not many if any investor angel or not, is going to "invest"-which usually in the business world mean with expected returns of what they put in with growth of their money, if we appear to not know much about what  we are doing and or seem not so much business savy.

Quite frankly we come off as activists than business. Most people looking to invest dont invest-classical definition of investment- in activist groups. They donate and then write it off on their tax returns. And sometimes that donation isnt free to get it from the big fish.

I think we could cough up money ourselves. Hell, people is all about investing. They invested thousands into the game according to their own words. $1,000 times the population that might be here on this forum, $10,000-$20,000 total miniumum. Then of course we have some more wll to do people out there that could give $5,000-$10,000 and the amount of English professors in the COX community, I know they bank money for sure assuming they are who they say they are. We could easily do at least to $90,000 in one swoop within a few days it takes some to either get that type of money together. Off the claimed English professors giving $5,000 (chump change to them it should be.) a piece could rake in $80,000 just them alone.

I don't see us as activists.  I see us as customers who aren't satisfied with current offerings.  It certainly would take a core mgmt team with serious business savvy.  Likely we have a few who are the right calibre to pull it off. 

I think our best approach is to pour money into "Heroes and Villains" so they can pull in the talent they need to pull this off.  I wouldn't go form an LLC or a corp unless it became necessary.

Golden Girl, how well structured is the project?  What's the mgmt team look like?  how about the project plan? wbs? and other project related docs?  Is all of that publicly available?

I'm also wondering how many active accounts we have here and how many people would be willing to pour money, time, skills, etc into this.  I knew players who had as many as 4 monthly paying accounts in coh.  The money shouldn't be hard to raise.
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downix

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2013, 04:02:19 AM »
I don't see us as activists.  I see us as customers who aren't satisfied with current offerings.  It certainly would take a core mgmt team with serious business savvy.  Likely we have a few who are the right calibre to pull it off. 

I think our best approach is to pour money into "Heroes and Villains" so they can pull in the talent they need to pull this off.  I wouldn't go form an LLC or a corp unless it became necessary.

Golden Girl, how well structured is the project?  What's the mgmt team look like?  how about the project plan? wbs? and other project related docs?  Is all of that publicly available?

I'm also wondering how many active accounts we have here and how many people would be willing to pour money, time, skills, etc into this.  I knew players who had as many as 4 monthly paying accounts in coh.  The money shouldn't be hard to raise.
Out of curiosity, why H&V over TPP or VO?

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #30 on: June 16, 2013, 04:34:21 AM »
I don't see us as activists.  I see us as customers who aren't satisfied with current offerings.  It certainly would take a core mgmt team with serious business savvy.  Likely we have a few who are the right calibre to pull it off. 

I think our best approach is to pour money into "Heroes and Villains" so they can pull in the talent they need to pull this off.  I wouldn't go form an LLC or a corp unless it became necessary.

Golden Girl, how well structured is the project?  What's the mgmt team look like?  how about the project plan? wbs? and other project related docs?  Is all of that publicly available?

I'm also wondering how many active accounts we have here and how many people would be willing to pour money, time, skills, etc into this.  I knew players who had as many as 4 monthly paying accounts in coh.  The money shouldn't be hard to raise.

Yup.

also anyone thought about, what perks might be available for said investors? Or is it more of dontation and pat on the back method that is in mind. Neither one is bad but before even collecting a cent, that should have to be clear up front. Definately dont want it to come back and bite anyone that is running one of the three or any other project.

downix

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #31 on: June 16, 2013, 03:15:03 PM »
Yup.

also anyone thought about, what perks might be available for said investors? Or is it more of dontation and pat on the back method that is in mind. Neither one is bad but before even collecting a cent, that should have to be clear up front. Definately dont want it to come back and bite anyone that is running one of the three or any other project.
Perks are a delicate balance. I know we spent over a month developing our perks for the KS.

Golden Girl

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #32 on: June 16, 2013, 07:27:08 PM »
I don't see us as activists.  I see us as customers who aren't satisfied with current offerings.  It certainly would take a core mgmt team with serious business savvy.  Likely we have a few who are the right calibre to pull it off. 

I think our best approach is to pour money into "Heroes and Villains" so they can pull in the talent they need to pull this off.  I wouldn't go form an LLC or a corp unless it became necessary.

We're not going to - corporate scum took our first home from us - the last thing we're going to do is to have our second home follow the same path. "Heroes and Villains" is a community made and run project now and forever, and we're takign steps to make sure that the only people who'll find it attractive to invest in will be people who want to play the game, not people looking to make a profit.

Quote
Golden Girl, how well structured is the project?  What's the mgmt team look like?  how about the project plan? wbs? and other project related docs?  Is all of that publicly available?

As a community project, we've got a very relaxed structure - everyone shares the collective vision of the spiritual successor to CoH, so everyone's focused on the same path to acheive it.
There's a design framework that's been laid out, but it's not fully available to the community yet.

Quote
I'm also wondering how many active accounts we have here and how many people would be willing to pour money, time, skills, etc into this.  I knew players who had as many as 4 monthly paying accounts in coh.  The money shouldn't be hard to raise.

Currently, because of the way the project is set up and the quality of the talent attached to it, we don't actually need money to launch the game - however, more money would still spee dup the development process, and let us get community's new home up and running faster - and as we've been getting an increasing number of messages from the community asking how they can finanically help the project, sometime soon-ish, probably in the fall, we'll be setting up a donation system to let them do just that.
In the meantime, you can help spread the word around for anyone who's interested to set aside any potential donation money ready for the time when we open up the system for it.
"Heroes and Villains" website - http://www.heroes-and-villains.com
"Heroes and Villains" on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/HeroesAndVillainsMMORPG
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"Heroes and Villains" teaser trailer - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnjKqNPfFv8
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downix

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2013, 08:39:57 PM »
We're not going to - corporate scum took our first home from us - the last thing we're going to do is to have our second home follow the same path. "Heroes and Villains" is a community made and run project now and forever, and we're takign steps to make sure that the only people who'll find it attractive to invest in will be people who want to play the game, not people looking to make a profit.
Without setting up a corporation or LLC, then a corporate scum *can* take your home away from you, very easily. They only need to file a lawsuit against one of your contributors, and force an injunction of release against the entire project as a result. Without that legal framework, you will be powerless to defend your contributors.

A corporation is a tool, not an entity in and of itself. A community-centric corporation, such as the Linux Foundation or Missing Worlds Media, gives the protection needed while retaining the community centered nature desired. Think of a Credit Union. By law, it is still a corporation, but one where its members are also its shareholders, ensuring a focus on product, not profit.

Golden Girl

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2013, 08:51:00 PM »
Without setting up a corporation or LLC, then a corporate scum *can* take your home away from you, very easily. They only need to file a lawsuit against one of your contributors, and force an injunction of release against the entire project as a result. Without that legal framework, you will be powerless to defend your contributors.

The way we're setting up the project, that won't be a problem.
"Heroes and Villains" website - http://www.heroes-and-villains.com
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downix

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #35 on: June 16, 2013, 08:56:47 PM »
The way we're setting up the project, that won't be a problem.
Unless you incorporate or set up an LLC, then it is a problem.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2013, 09:38:16 PM by downix »

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #36 on: June 16, 2013, 10:29:59 PM »
Corporation, as an in-theory generic legal theory isn't a problem, corporation as a 'got mine f' you' mind set is the problem. This is coming from somebody who's pretty far left.

As Downix said, the legal platform is useful insomuch as keeping things like he said from happening to you.

It's great that you don't want to follow the same mindset that lead to the policies that closed down the game you like, but not organizing the project you're heading in any way or heading any sort of legal framework for what happens if worst case happens, then you're basically setting up a time bomb.

The longer something lasts, the more likely it's going to roll that worst case scenario, so having a plan of action ahead of time is only really going to be beneficial.

Again, it's not so much the organizational method that is the problem, so much as what is done with it that could or not be one.

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #37 on: June 16, 2013, 10:59:43 PM »
Out of curiosity, why H&V over TPP or VO?
Indeed, TPP is the original project, with the most people working on it, and, from what I can see, the best organized and structured for development.  If I'm going to give $ to any of them, that would almost certainly be my choice, though VO is meriting a bit more of my attention these days.

JanessaVR

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #38 on: June 16, 2013, 11:07:12 PM »

Golden Girl

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #39 on: June 16, 2013, 11:30:45 PM »
Unless you incorporate or set up an LLC, then it is a problem.

Not the way we're doing it ;)
"Heroes and Villains" website - http://www.heroes-and-villains.com
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LadyVamp

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #40 on: June 17, 2013, 02:06:15 AM »
Going to bundle my replies here:

Which one to support should be the one with the best chance of producing product.  The others should collapse into the one supported.  I realize that this can be a very emotional situation but multiple projects fragment us which goes against the whole idea in the first place.

As for the corporate structure, I'd prefer a co-op or credit union like structure where the players are automatically the owners.  I would feel more comfortable contributing resources in that structure.  That said, I can understand the desire to shy away from corporations given NCSoft is a corporation and they did some terrible things.  Keep in mind it is the leaders of the corp that did those things.

With a corp in place we gain the following:
  • No single owner as we the players can structure it so that we are the owners
  • Legal protection should there be a lawsuit
  • Better access to capital aka money.  Banks/venture capital/angel investors more likely to loan to a corp than a person
  • if we hold the company private, no other company can just buy us out aka corporate raiding
It can be structured as a not-for-profit.

Right now, Golden Girl, you might be in a partnership which is an unincorporated business aka a company.  You have unlimited liability, your partners can sell you out, and you can't get access to better capitalization.  And, if it makes a profit, you get to pay the taxes as part of your personal income.  I'm no tax expert, but I could see some real headaches.

And last but not least, sorry for hijacking the thread.  This should really be in its own thread.
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Golden Girl

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #41 on: June 17, 2013, 02:12:35 AM »
As I mentioned earlier, because of the way we're set up, we don't actually need invesment to launch the game - additonal funding will simply bring the launch date forward.
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downix

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #42 on: June 17, 2013, 02:59:07 AM »
Going to bundle my replies here:

Which one to support should be the one with the best chance of producing product.  The others should collapse into the one supported.  I realize that this can be a very emotional situation but multiple projects fragment us which goes against the whole idea in the first place.

As for the corporate structure, I'd prefer a co-op or credit union like structure where the players are automatically the owners.  I would feel more comfortable contributing resources in that structure.  That said, I can understand the desire to shy away from corporations given NCSoft is a corporation and they did some terrible things.  Keep in mind it is the leaders of the corp that did those things.

With a corp in place we gain the following:
  • No single owner as we the players can structure it so that we are the owners
  • Legal protection should there be a lawsuit
  • Better access to capital aka money.  Banks/venture capital/angel investors more likely to loan to a corp than a person
  • if we hold the company private, no other company can just buy us out aka corporate raiding
It can be structured as a not-for-profit.

Right now, Golden Girl, you might be in a partnership which is an unincorporated business aka a company.  You have unlimited liability, your partners can sell you out, and you can't get access to better capitalization.  And, if it makes a profit, you get to pay the taxes as part of your personal income.  I'm no tax expert, but I could see some real headaches.

And last but not least, sorry for hijacking the thread.  This should really be in its own thread.
The concern of "players as owners" brings up support cost. You will invariably have the game supported by a handful, with the result being an eventual collapse. These games are not free to run, after all. That is why MWM went for developers-as-owners, those who put the work in get a piece of the pie. Of course it is not being set up for huge profits, but to support costs.

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #43 on: June 17, 2013, 05:19:54 AM »
I guess I should throw a few more things in here.  The reason I initially posted this is because I looked on Matt Miller's Twitter and it struck me that there didn't seem to be anything on CoH in weeks.  It seemed like he'd moved on.  Hell, I guess all the devs had moved on.  And that's what started this: the people we had been so appreciative of running a great game had moved on in less than six months.  That's a really quick recovery period, honestly.

All this talk of "Plan Z"?  I'm not really interested, partially because, well, I'm a furry.  And the first thought I'm sure you all have (after any inappropriate jokes, so let's just skip those) is "wait, why would that make you uninterested in the Plan Z options?"  And the answer's simple:  The costume options aren't gonna be there.  I was able to make a lot of anthro characters in CoH, and that was one of the REALLY big appeals for me.  Any of the Plan Z options won't really care about a small section like me, they'll focus on the big interests.  Or that's how I feel.

I got to play the idealized version of myself in City of Heroes.  I got to do it with my significant other, and we had a lot of stuff in it.  When CoH tanked, it hit our relationship.  We're still together, but it never stayed the same after it.  And it's been hard to figure things out sometimes when a big part of what we had together was taken away.  I'm not saying that was the whole thing, but...no other game is really the same, and I don't really know if the Plan Z options will be either.

I want to stop hurting from this game.  I want to move on with my (gaming) life.  But I feel emotionally stuck in the mud left behind from CoH being washed away.  I have no idea how to really cope with this, and the hope that the game would come back in some meaningful form (meaning Paragon City, not some replacement) was a hope I was holding on to from day one.  And now...I just don't know what I'm doing most days.  I have too much free time before college resumes in the fall, and I just don't know how to stop hurting from CoH being ripped away from me.  And the hope of it coming back seems faded and fake now, so I just don't know what to believe in, or what to hope for.

I want to say I want to be able to play a game where I can be my characters again, but those characters were built around Paragon City in many cases.  I don't know how to rebuild them, or if I even could if something else came along.  I want to stop seeing the game in my dreams only to wake up and it's gone.  I want this ache to stop.

downix

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #44 on: June 17, 2013, 05:35:26 AM »
I guess I should throw a few more things in here.  The reason I initially posted this is because I looked on Matt Miller's Twitter and it struck me that there didn't seem to be anything on CoH in weeks.  It seemed like he'd moved on.  Hell, I guess all the devs had moved on.  And that's what started this: the people we had been so appreciative of running a great game had moved on in less than six months.  That's a really quick recovery period, honestly.

All this talk of "Plan Z"?  I'm not really interested, partially because, well, I'm a furry.  And the first thought I'm sure you all have (after any inappropriate jokes, so let's just skip those) is "wait, why would that make you uninterested in the Plan Z options?"  And the answer's simple:  The costume options aren't gonna be there.  I was able to make a lot of anthro characters in CoH, and that was one of the REALLY big appeals for me.  Any of the Plan Z options won't really care about a small section like me, they'll focus on the big interests.  Or that's how I feel.

I got to play the idealized version of myself in City of Heroes.  I got to do it with my significant other, and we had a lot of stuff in it.  When CoH tanked, it hit our relationship.  We're still together, but it never stayed the same after it.  And it's been hard to figure things out sometimes when a big part of what we had together was taken away.  I'm not saying that was the whole thing, but...no other game is really the same, and I don't really know if the Plan Z options will be either.

I want to stop hurting from this game.  I want to move on with my (gaming) life.  But I feel emotionally stuck in the mud left behind from CoH being washed away.  I have no idea how to really cope with this, and the hope that the game would come back in some meaningful form (meaning Paragon City, not some replacement) was a hope I was holding on to from day one.  And now...I just don't know what I'm doing most days.  I have too much free time before college resumes in the fall, and I just don't know how to stop hurting from CoH being ripped away from me.  And the hope of it coming back seems faded and fake now, so I just don't know what to believe in, or what to hope for.

I want to say I want to be able to play a game where I can be my characters again, but those characters were built around Paragon City in many cases.  I don't know how to rebuild them, or if I even could if something else came along.  I want to stop seeing the game in my dreams only to wake up and it's gone.  I want this ache to stop.
While your particular tastes I may not share, I see no reason *not* to offer the costume options.

As for the others, there is little solace within my power other than to keep doing what I am.

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #45 on: June 17, 2013, 05:52:54 AM »
As for the others, there is little solace within my power other than to keep doing what I am.

Suffice to say, I've had a lot on my mind regarding CoH for a while, and I threw myself into hoping for CoH to come back in order to keep the depression from getting to me early on.  Clearly, hope is no longer enough to keep my doubts at bay.

downix

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #46 on: June 17, 2013, 06:09:57 AM »
Suffice to say, I've had a lot on my mind regarding CoH for a while, and I threw myself into hoping for CoH to come back in order to keep the depression from getting to me early on.  Clearly, hope is no longer enough to keep my doubts at bay.
And this is why I refuse to give up. I cannot give you Paragon, same as Humpty Dumpty could not be put back together again. But I'm doing my best to give you, and everyone else in the community, a new home as best I can.

Golden Girl

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #47 on: June 17, 2013, 06:13:18 AM »
All this talk of "Plan Z"?  I'm not really interested, partially because, well, I'm a furry.  And the first thought I'm sure you all have (after any inappropriate jokes, so let's just skip those) is "wait, why would that make you uninterested in the Plan Z options?"  And the answer's simple:  The costume options aren't gonna be there.  I was able to make a lot of anthro characters in CoH, and that was one of the REALLY big appeals for me.  Any of the Plan Z options won't really care about a small section like me, they'll focus on the big interests.  Or that's how I feel.

Then your feelings are wrong :P

One of the fundamental goals for "Heroes and Villains" ever since we started work on it back in September is to create a game that allows the community to transition their character concepts to their new home with as little disruption as possible, while still keeping things legally acceptable.
And while there are only a couple fo small-ish animal parts included in the first wave of costume parts curently being created, further animal themed parts certainly aren't near the bottom of our costume part to-do list.
"Heroes and Villains" website - http://www.heroes-and-villains.com
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Artwork - http://goldengirlcoh.deviantart.com

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #48 on: June 17, 2013, 11:56:43 AM »
Well I'm convinced at this point that we'll be able to play City of Heroes on a well-loved and maintained community server eventually. But that doesn't make any of these projects less important.

I think some people are drawing lines in the sand for the wrong reasons, way too early. If you've got to do it, please don't do it because of management or organizational concerns. If you're just a supportive fan, those concerns shouldn't be yours. If you're going to draw a line in the sand, do it over something that bears more relevance at this stage. Design or thematic direction. Vision. Fun factor. The furry guy actually has the right idea (never thought I'd type that). All he's thinking about is whether he's going to have his costume options back. The wrong combination of people getting new jobs, moving, getting married or having kids can and will set a volunteer effort on its ear in short order anyway, no matter if they liked to go on and on about LLCs or a less traditional model. No one at a gaming expo will be wowed by an extremely advanced grasp of project organization. Let's talk more about business structures when these projects get beyond primitive tech demos. Not that I have the right to tell people what to talk about; but I do reserve my right to scratch my head at people, this being the Internet and a forum and all.  :P

Of course, it would be nicer if people didn't make the lines in the sand any thicker or wider than they already have to be. I know people think there should be only one project, but there isn't a possible reality where we ever would have gotten just one project out of this bad thing happening. Frankly I'm surprised we only ended up with three, and I'll be more surprised if that number doesn't grow again. I could have told you this after my first day on the old official forums. We're a diverse, mixed bag. Why this is still a surprise all these months later, I have no idea, but these projects split apart over design goals that are fundamentally different. That part couldn't be helped. It really couldn't. And by asking Golden Girl and all of her developers to ditch their vision of a truly very similar game...for the Phoenix Project's vision of an evolved spiritual successor (which is in many aspects apples to oranges, you must realize)...and do it all because the Phoenix Project is bigger...you're not asking everyone to "just get along". You're asking a small dev team to allow their vision to be sublimated, gobbled up and washed out by a larger entity with greater resources. And why? Because they're bigger. And that kind of reasoning puts you about one step away from selling out to a board of fat cat shareholders. Behind every request like this is a veiled dismissal of someone's vision. You couldn't pay me to embrace that sort of behavior, considering where we all stand.

This community isn't the Phoenix Project, or Heroes and Villains, or Valiance Online, or the community server, or SEGs, or Save City of Heroes. It's all of the above. You couldn't have changed that outcome without also changing what makes these people and their projects so worthwhile. A team with passion for their vision is a team that boots up their computers every day and programs and creates art assets and pushes their plans forward. They're all doing the right thing.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 12:10:23 PM by Captain Electric »

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #49 on: June 17, 2013, 01:16:51 PM »
There are 234897 fantasy-based, pointy-eared MMOs out there (with multiples of them run by the same publishers no less!) and everyone is okay with that.

I hope ALL the superhero games come to fruition, release, and succeed.  The more the merrier as far as I'm concerned. 

CoH will always be near and dear to my heart, and I hope like heck we get to play it again (likely on a compatible server), but I don't have ill will toward any of the other Plan Zs.

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #50 on: June 17, 2013, 01:39:24 PM »
I guess I should throw a few more things in here.  The reason I initially posted this is because I looked on Matt Miller's Twitter and it struck me that there didn't seem to be anything on CoH in weeks.  It seemed like he'd moved on.  Hell, I guess all the devs had moved on.  And that's what started this: the people we had been so appreciative of running a great game had moved on in less than six months.  That's a really quick recovery period, honestly.

Well many probably have moved on due to survival and that survival in that job field may require focus on their new job and or new project. Although six months, eh, there is no time limit for moving on from things. Hell within six months of even the closets family member death people are back into their normal routine. Some as little as a week and others as soon as tha tcasket in the ground they are good to go. While others, go hermit for decades.

You want to stop hurting? You can get there if you want. It may not be easy. But first thing first, is figuring out what can stop that hurt. There is no game like COX. COX was, well, COX. And that quality make it excellent when it was up and running. But the downside is when it's gone of course nothing to replace it is there.

Now COX didnt always exist sometimes what I found to ease the hurt is to try to remember what was it like prior to COX. What made you happy prior to up to 2004 (if ya was there since the beginning)? What brought you joy and happiness during those times?

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #51 on: June 17, 2013, 01:50:47 PM »
At this point, I'm just checking back here now and then, hoping for news of something I can actually play.  I know all the Plan Z efforts are a long way from fruition (and I don't know whether I'll be able to run them on my old laptop to begin with), and while I'm rooting for Task Force Hail Mary to bear fruit, so far the companies they sent the pitch to haven't even acknowledged our existence.

I really just want to play City of Heroes again, not something new and uncertain.  (I don't begrudge the Plan Z efforts - quite the opposite, I'm keeping a close eye on them via their respective Facebook pages - but they're not anywhere near done yet, and by necessity they're going to start off very rough and bare-bones, rather than the eight years of development and fine-tuning that CoH had)

I miss my characters.  Even if I have to recreate them from the ground up, I want to play them again.  (I've been really missing my Thugs/Traps Mastermind lately, for some reason, and he wasn't even one of my mains)

Icon is a fun and distracting paint-by-numbers kit, but it's not a living world where I can actually play the characters I create, and that's the part I enjoy.  I like to see all those powers and how they work in practice, against large groups of enemies or against single hard targets, not just as numbers in a description.

So... I'm mostly just waiting and hoping for a community server announcement.

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #52 on: June 17, 2013, 02:57:49 PM »
I guess I should throw a few more things in here.  The reason I initially posted this is because I looked on Matt Miller's Twitter and it struck me that there didn't seem to be anything on CoH in weeks.  It seemed like he'd moved on.  Hell, I guess all the devs had moved on.  And that's what started this: the people we had been so appreciative of running a great game had moved on in less than six months.  That's a really quick recovery period, honestly.

I don't think that looking at the devs' Twitter feeds is necessarily a bellwether for their emotional ties to the game. You really should check out Posi's column on MMORPG.com. He talks about various aspects of developing these games, and his frame of reference is generally CoH. His two-parter about the test that they would give prospective new hires is particularly enlightening.

I would agree with those who have pointed out that "moving on" was necessary for their survival. Was it a labor of love? Obviously! Would they come back, given the chance? I would bet that most of them would, under the right conditions.
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #53 on: June 17, 2013, 03:12:02 PM »
Task Force Hail Mary? Losing momentum, VV gone since April (health issues?), and both campaigns were mostly ignored.  Again, not much we can do: efficacy of such campaigns exponentially drops as the time from the COH shutdown grows longer.  Rae is trying a third target, fingers crossed.  (I'm pessimistic on selling something you don't own yourself.  Comes from years of trying to offload government purchased and disposed E-Waste before letting "recyclers" have at it: unless someone has an explicit interest in it beforehand, it really is ice-skating uphill.)

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« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 04:04:53 PM by Rae »
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downix

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #54 on: June 17, 2013, 03:56:16 PM »
Well I'm convinced at this point that we'll be able to play City of Heroes on a well-loved and maintained community server eventually. But that doesn't make any of these projects less important.

I think some people are drawing lines in the sand for the wrong reasons, way too early. If you've got to do it, please don't do it because of management or organizational concerns. If you're just a supportive fan, those concerns shouldn't be yours. If you're going to draw a line in the sand, do it over something that bears more relevance at this stage. Design or thematic direction. Vision. Fun factor. The furry guy actually has the right idea (never thought I'd type that). All he's thinking about is whether he's going to have his costume options back. The wrong combination of people getting new jobs, moving, getting married or having kids can and will set a volunteer effort on its ear in short order anyway, no matter if they liked to go on and on about LLCs or a less traditional model. No one at a gaming expo will be wowed by an extremely advanced grasp of project organization. Let's talk more about business structures when these projects get beyond primitive tech demos. Not that I have the right to tell people what to talk about; but I do reserve my right to scratch my head at people, this being the Internet and a forum and all.  :P

Of course, it would be nicer if people didn't make the lines in the sand any thicker or wider than they already have to be. I know people think there should be only one project, but there isn't a possible reality where we ever would have gotten just one project out of this bad thing happening. Frankly I'm surprised we only ended up with three, and I'll be more surprised if that number doesn't grow again. I could have told you this after my first day on the old official forums. We're a diverse, mixed bag. Why this is still a surprise all these months later, I have no idea, but these projects split apart over design goals that are fundamentally different. That part couldn't be helped. It really couldn't. And by asking Golden Girl and all of her developers to ditch their vision of a truly very similar game...for the Phoenix Project's vision of an evolved spiritual successor (which is in many aspects apples to oranges, you must realize)...and do it all because the Phoenix Project is bigger...you're not asking everyone to "just get along". You're asking a small dev team to allow their vision to be sublimated, gobbled up and washed out by a larger entity with greater resources. And why? Because they're bigger. And that kind of reasoning puts you about one step away from selling out to a board of fat cat shareholders. Behind every request like this is a veiled dismissal of someone's vision. You couldn't pay me to embrace that sort of behavior, considering where we all stand.

This community isn't the Phoenix Project, or Heroes and Villains, or Valiance Online, or the community server, or SEGs, or Save City of Heroes. It's all of the above. You couldn't have changed that outcome without also changing what makes these people and their projects so worthwhile. A team with passion for their vision is a team that boots up their computers every day and programs and creates art assets and pushes their plans forward. They're all doing the right thing.
Well said.

My only concern with H&V is the lack of legal protection. I've seen very good, solid projects get shut down due to a failure to protect themselves legally. Right now, if I were the king-of-all-jerks, I could file a few pieces of paper, and shut them down permanently due to this lack of protection, and there is nothing anybody could do to stop me. I'm not, however, the king-of-all-jerks, so instead I warn GG.

GG's approach is something this community needs. Our approach is also something this community needs, as is Valiance. If LadyVamp is serious about starting an open source project alternative, I would forward her our old Multiverse work immediately, to give her group a leg up.

If any of my comments came across as "line in the sand" you have my apologies. I truly am concerned over what is a basic foundational mis-step which could cost the community dearly. GG's vision may not be mine, but she, and her team, deserve the opportunity to let it grow and develop, to blossom into its own grandeur. It would be a shame for it to be lost. If it were, of course GG and her team would be welcome in TPP. I will be honest in saying, however, that I hope that never happens.

We have here a golden opportunity here. Three solid projects, each driven by a different set of goals and ideals. And the end of the day, we may prove how CoH was truly the gold standard for MMORPG's, and is the very thing which can propel the game market forward. And the best victory we can ever achieve is just that, to be able to tell those who wronged us that they don't matter anymore.

That will be a sweet victory indeed.

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #55 on: June 17, 2013, 06:02:56 PM »
All this talk of "Plan Z"?  I'm not really interested, partially because, well, I'm a furry.  And the first thought I'm sure you all have (after any inappropriate jokes, so let's just skip those) is "wait, why would that make you uninterested in the Plan Z options?"  And the answer's simple:  The costume options aren't gonna be there.

FenrirEX, you (and your significant other) are as much a part of the CoH community as anybody here - and that includes everyone working on the "CoH reborn" projects, whatever form they take. So don't think that your voice would be ignored just because you favoured fur over spandex!

The "Project Z" endeavours are still a fair ol' way from an end product, so I'd say that now is the time to get involved with those projects, if you want to see a specific feature appear in the finished result. Why not visit the sub-forums here and make your requests for furry themed costume pieces?

Everyone working on the Z projects loved CoH, otherwise they wouldn't be doing what they're doing right now. And arguably the biggest 'thing' that made CoH what it was wasn't the game itself - it was us, the player community. Everyone involved in the Z projects remembers this, and if a player tells them they'd like to be able to do something in a new game that they were able to do in CoH, then they will not scoff or mock or sneer - rather they will listen and try to accommodate that player's request.

Remember, the Z projects ARE us, because we ARE CoH - through us the memories will live on. And your memory is just as valid as anyone else's - don't ever forget that, or let anyone try to convince you otherwise :)

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #56 on: June 17, 2013, 06:38:18 PM »
Well said.

My only concern with H&V is the lack of legal protection. I've seen very good, solid projects get shut down due to a failure to protect themselves legally. Right now, if I were the king-of-all-jerks, I could file a few pieces of paper, and shut them down permanently due to this lack of protection, and there is nothing anybody could do to stop me. I'm not, however, the king-of-all-jerks, so instead I warn GG.

Yeah that is the common misconception about law. It's not always about who is right or wrong but sometimes it boils down who have proper ammo and or most ammo. Meaning best lawyers and or a crap load of cash to spend. Think divorce/criminal/family lawyers are exspensive? Corporate lawyers on the bottom rung make some of the mid grade divorce lawyers look like the bargin $1 bin at Family Dollar.

 According to the 2003 Report of Economic Survey published by the American Intellectual Property Lawyers Association, the average cost of patent litigation is $2M, trademark litigation is $600K, and other types of IP litigation average between $500K and $800K. Keywords-average costs ten years ago.

For relative the average contested divorce is $21,000.


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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #57 on: June 20, 2013, 03:00:38 PM »
Quote
I guess I should throw a few more things in here.  The reason I initially posted this is because I looked on Matt Miller's Twitter and it struck me that there didn't seem to be anything on CoH in weeks.  It seemed like he'd moved on.  Hell, I guess all the devs had moved on.  And that's what started this: the people we had been so appreciative of running a great game had moved on in less than six months.  That's a really quick recovery period, honestly.

I like to think they moved on due to necessity and essentially being forced to do so, due to nondisclosure.

Think about it. We have every right and the time and money to continue doing what we do while fighting. They can't exactly cry hate for NCSoft or directly partake in such matters that could be considered a deliberate attempt at influencing a company they were fired from. They're more powerless than we are, especially since if they -don't- move on, they aren't exactly going to eat well.

Let's not forget they were encouraging us to keep shouting, back in the day, as the negative reaction was a lot stronger than NCSoft was prepared for. The key is to keep this reaction going.

Someone earlier in this topic mentioned VV had left the initiative. Someone that was actually a powerful drive for a lot of us. Does anyone know what happened? I knew her mother had died, but it's kind of hard to see how, after all the words of encouragement, she'd just disappear like that.

JaguarX

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #58 on: June 20, 2013, 05:23:25 PM »
I like to think they moved on due to necessity and essentially being forced to do so, due to nondisclosure.

Think about it. We have every right and the time and money to continue doing what we do while fighting. They can't exactly cry hate for NCSoft or directly partake in such matters that could be considered a deliberate attempt at influencing a company they were fired from. They're more powerless than we are, especially since if they -don't- move on, they aren't exactly going to eat well.

Let's not forget they were encouraging us to keep shouting, back in the day, as the negative reaction was a lot stronger than NCSoft was prepared for. The key is to keep this reaction going.

Someone earlier in this topic mentioned VV had left the initiative. Someone that was actually a powerful drive for a lot of us. Does anyone know what happened? I knew her mother had died, but it's kind of hard to see how, after all the words of encouragement, she'd just disappear like that.


Well to tell you the truth I understand VV absence for now. See how much losing a game hurt and some people are still just as hurt after six months? Now this is death of mother for her. It takes time to get over that, not to mention depending on the situation, a while to get all the stuff in order and set and conforting other family memebers in this time of loss and or being comforted. I havent experienced it personally yet, but I could only imagine the feeling of loss losing a parent which I would imagine make losing a game seems like a pin prick compared to the loss of a mother which is probably like being ripped open in a slow manner.

While I hope she can return when she can, I rather her take her time after that type of loss and take as long as she needs without feeling pressured to hurry up and come back here.

Hell, I never even knew the woman hardly nor her mother but still it was sad to hear about that death.


Aggelakis

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #59 on: June 20, 2013, 05:26:52 PM »
VV's mother died, then VV herself got really sick for a rather long time, and she does have a day job, you know, writing books, with deadlines and meetings and traveling and stuff. So she got really far behind with repeated shitstorms and to be honest, saving City is less important than having a life (and mourning the loss of someone else's).
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JaguarX

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #60 on: June 20, 2013, 05:33:59 PM »
VV's mother died, then VV herself got really sick for a rather long time, and she does have a day job, you know, writing books, with deadlines and meetings and traveling and stuff. So she got really far behind with repeated shitstorms and to be honest, saving City is less important than having a life (and mourning the loss of someone else's).
yeah.

Aggelakis

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #61 on: June 20, 2013, 05:42:28 PM »
Also, paying bills is super awesome in that they don't shut down/take away whatever you're paying for. That's also really important.
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JanessaVR

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #62 on: June 20, 2013, 08:57:37 PM »
VV's mother died, then VV herself got really sick for a rather long time, and she does have a day job, you know, writing books, with deadlines and meetings and traveling and stuff. So she got really far behind with repeated shitstorms and to be honest, saving City is less important than having a life (and mourning the loss of someone else's).
I know, it's been rather horrible for her.  It's because of all that I unfortunately suspect she won't be returning, so our future efforts will need to account for that, I'm afraid.

JaguarX

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #63 on: June 20, 2013, 09:54:25 PM »
I know, it's been rather horrible for her.  It's because of all that I unfortunately suspect she won't be returning, so our future efforts will need to account for that, I'm afraid.
Either way, I'll always remember her for her efforts here. If there is ever thing about who's who of this effort her name will be high on the list in my book.

FenrirEX

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #64 on: June 26, 2013, 04:35:26 PM »
Hey, I just want to thank everyone that responded and tried to cheer me up.  I know I might have been a little bit mopey, but I kind of have a lot of stuff going on in my life that's had me down, and not dealing with CoH wasn't helping.  I've since come to terms that it's not coming back like it was, period.  If it does come back, it'll be different, and I don't like change very often.  However, it does feel good that other people are out there going through some of the same stuff, so at least I don't feel as bad.

As for what I did before I started playing in 2005 that made me happy?  ...not a whole lot.  I had video games that I played, but the content eventually ran out.  The closest I've had to the need to play CoH has been STO, and while I like it, it's not the same.  The fact of the matter is, losing myself for a while in CoH was what helped me tune out the depression for a while.

Part of what sucked about the closure is that it happened the DAY after I moved in with my SO.  Despite the fact I'm coming up on 30, I"m kind of behind on stuff in life, and only just moved out from living with my parents.  I'd had a rough summer semester before it too, which was why I was only moving in on that Thurday, and why I hadn't really played CoH more than a little since about early June.  And then right as I was about to get serious with my favorite game again...they announce they were closing it.  Making any time left seem pointless.  Why work on leveling characters up when I might never get to play them again?  Or at the very least, why make progress when I'd just have to  re-back them up with Sentinel+, once I started doing that to keep my spirits up.  And that's what I did from then until this breakdown: I kept my spirits up, by force if necessary.  I refused to believe we couldn't have CoH back as we had it, as good as ever.  Even in spite of all the negative news and such.

But no one can hold that much stress and not break.  And so I did.  And so you all saw.  And I just...it's hard.  Having more free time from switching schools, being without a job for a while, having dreams that CoH was back at least once a week...it's made it no easier to go without that game.  So, ultimately, I just needed an outlet, so I joined the forums here.  I'd been following since day 1 of the closure announcement, and the Titan Network has been the biggest hope throughout.  But when news started to slow to a trickle, the fight to stay afloat emotionally got rough, and I finally got pulled under...and then you all saw the rest, I think.  I just want to thank everyone that's tried to help cheer me up.  This has been really hard (and hearing about Ascendant made it no easier, may he rest in peace), so to have people come and try to cheer me up, and to at least say they're trying to bring back similar costumes to what CoH had in the Project Z games makes me feel better.  I want to believe in the Project Z games, but it's hard to imagine a game with a better "equipment" system than CoH did.

But in spite of all that.  Thank you all.

AlphaFerret

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #65 on: June 26, 2013, 10:17:32 PM »
Had a nice little Coh moment at work today:  a customer, who knew I was a big Coher, had uncovered a stack of the Dark Horse Comics that you used to get as part of your sub.  She was a former player, and the comics were unopened in their original mailing sleeves.  She used to play a lot of Redside, but she knew I would appreciate them, and handed 'em over.  Probably part of an alignment shifting quest arc...
Nevertheless, it's good to be a part of the Coh community:)

Golden Girl

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #66 on: June 26, 2013, 10:36:38 PM »
I want to believe in the Project Z games, but it's hard to imagine a game with a better "equipment" system than CoH did.

"Heroes and Villains" is taking a very simple and very obvious approach to solving that "problem" :P
"Heroes and Villains" website - http://www.heroes-and-villains.com
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"Heroes and Villains" teaser trailer - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnjKqNPfFv8
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Cobra Man

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #67 on: June 26, 2013, 11:03:39 PM »
"Heroes and Villains" is taking a very simple and very obvious approach to solving that "problem" :P

I'm still not sure that diluting the efforts to have a spiritual replacement for CoH is the best thing to do at this stage.

Surely there had to be enough common ground to pool all the considerable talents that were available to make a viable new game?

In saying that I will certainly keep an open mind on all 3 projects and decide on their respective merits.

downix

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #68 on: June 26, 2013, 11:15:27 PM »
I'm still not sure that diluting the efforts to have a spiritual replacement for CoH is the best thing to do at this stage.

Surely there had to be enough common ground to pool all the considerable talents that were available to make a viable new game?

In saying that I will certainly keep an open mind on all 3 projects and decide on their respective merits.
You would then guarantee absolute failure, a design-by bureaucracy due to the sheer number of people involved.

There is considerable talent, too much talent in fact to produce a single game. As it is, one of the projects is suffering from too-many-people syndrome, and is having to grow its management in order to remain viable. So to make it work, you would in effect have to get rid of most of the talent, to keep it viable for development. This means wasted talent.

That we have three projects is because we have so many talented people here. It's not because we just one day went "Oh, I want to make a game." Each one has a very different end-goal, even if we all came from the same origin, our love of CoH.

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #69 on: June 26, 2013, 11:41:56 PM »
All this talk of "Plan Z"?  I'm not really interested, partially because, well, I'm a furry.  And the first thought I'm sure you all have (after any inappropriate jokes, so let's just skip those) is "wait, why would that make you uninterested in the Plan Z options?"  And the answer's simple:  The costume options aren't gonna be there.  I was able to make a lot of anthro characters in CoH, and that was one of the REALLY big appeals for me.  Any of the Plan Z options won't really care about a small section like me, they'll focus on the big interests.  Or that's how I feel.

On Protector, I had a little, 4-foot-tall human/cat hybrid named No No Bad Kitty (claws/regen scrapper), who enthusiastically threw herself into fights during team missions, and seemed to become regarded as a mascot of sorts by the teams she was on. (There was one time when she got killed/defeated during a fight, and a teammate yelled, "KITTY! You'll pay for that, you FIEND!") I was very fond of her, too, but my efforts to remake her in CO came out looking too mean to be her. I'd greatly like to have her back, and, if CoH's successor(s) won't allow me to resurrect her,...let's just say that I shall be QUITE cross.

Plus, I recently came up with the idea of a magic-using canine purely for the Road-Runner-style Latin name: canis arcanis. I'd jolly well BETTER get to create him, too! So don't think that you're alone in wanting your critter-flavored toons back.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 06:52:37 AM by Super Firebug »
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Golden Girl

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #70 on: June 26, 2013, 11:50:31 PM »
On Protector, I had a little, 4-foot-tall human/cat hybrid named No No Bad Kitty (claws/regen scrapper), who enthusiastically threw herself into fights during team missions, and seemed to become regarded as a mascot of sorts by the teams she was on. (There was one time when she got killed/defeated during a fight, and a teammate yelled, "KITTY! You'll pay for that, you FIEND!") I was very fond of her, too, but my efforts to remake her in CO came out looking too mean to be her. I'd greatly like to have her back, and, if CoH's successor(s) won't allow me to resurrect her,...let's just say that I shall be QUITE cross.

Cat ears and tail have been included on the list of core costume parts that are currently being made ;)
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Super Firebug

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #71 on: June 27, 2013, 12:20:16 AM »
Cat ears and tail have been included on the list of core costume parts that are currently being made ;)

If you do the body fur, too, I hope you find a way to make it look better than CoH's did. Since the fur didn't extend to where the costume parts met, the bare skin made her look like she had the mange at her elbows, knees and waist. :/
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 12:47:12 AM by Super Firebug »
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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #72 on: June 27, 2013, 12:38:17 AM »
If you do the body fur, too, I hope you find a way to make it look better than CoH's did, Since the fur didn't extend to where the costume parts met, the bare skin made her look like she had the mange at her elbows, knees and waist. :/

The mice would like to request a nice set of ears and tail.  And, of course, their standard black with red highlighted body armour.   ;)

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Super Firebug

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #73 on: June 27, 2013, 12:44:28 AM »
The mice would like to request a nice set of ears and tail.

There'll be mice? Kitty'll be SO looking forward to welcoming them!

And, of course, their standard black with red highlighted body armour.   ;)

:blink: "Standard", Gracie?
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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #74 on: June 27, 2013, 01:46:08 AM »
Yeah, I think a "spiritual successor" to City of Heroes that doesn't include animal-inspired costume pieces probably wasn't made by someone who played City of Heroes any more than casually. I'm not a furry, and I enjoyed playing around with those.
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #75 on: June 27, 2013, 02:36:23 AM »
So, ultimately, I just needed an outlet, so I joined the forums here.

That's what we're here for, friend. We're here for each other. To seek and provide the company of people who feel the same way as we do. I can't say we're perfect, but I can honestly say we're like a family here. Some laughs, some deep discussion, some arguments. It's really good to know that there's a group of people out there who you don't have to explain it to, 'cause they're feeling it too. I know it's helped me a lot.

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #76 on: June 27, 2013, 02:47:43 AM »
The mice would like to request a nice set of ears and tail.  And, of course, their standard black with red highlighted body armour.   ;)

Great, now you've got me thinking that mice all run around in HALO suits and the nests we know about are just training facilities.

... oh even better, NOW you've got me thinking that there's a nest of blue-armored mice in our basement and a nest of red-armored mice in our shed and they're at war with each other for some reason that nobody told them. And they have plasma rifles!!! Tiny, adorable little plasma rifles! :o

Golden Girl

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #77 on: June 27, 2013, 02:53:00 AM »
Yeah, I think a "spiritual successor" to City of Heroes that doesn't include animal-inspired costume pieces probably wasn't made by someone who played City of Heroes any more than casually. I'm not a furry, and I enjoyed playing around with those.

Animal parts also have the huge advantage of being pretty much uncopyrightable, unlike, say, Arachnos or Vanguard armor styles - although players will still seem armor types that are vaguely inspired by those in "Heroes and Villains", as one of our main goals is to make the community's transition to their new home as smooth as possible, not just in the feel of the gameplay, but also in the look and backstories of their characters - and as CoH based its setting quite heavily on classic comic book themes, providing a similar feel to the setting won't be too difficult.
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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #78 on: June 27, 2013, 05:51:59 AM »
The COH community is *STILL* the best internet community ever! :)

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #79 on: June 27, 2013, 06:54:14 AM »
The COH community is *STILL* the best internet community ever! :)

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Super Firebug

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #80 on: June 27, 2013, 07:42:57 AM »
You want to stop hurting? You can get there if you want. It may not be easy. But first thing first, is figuring out what can stop that hurt. There is no game like COX. COX was, well, COX. And that quality make it excellent when it was up and running. But the downside is when it's gone of course nothing to replace it is there.

FenrirEX, Champions has several animal costume parts available to free accounts. For instance, I just checked the head options under "Bestial" on my free account, and, of the 26 listed there, 20 of them are unlocked to my toons. (I haven't bought any costume pieces, or sets, on that account.) So, you might try that option.

Of course, it looks and plays differently. But I have to put up with that sort of thing a lot, because my favorite form of video entertainment is space science fiction. And, while fantasy is pretty much set at elves, dwarves, ogres, dragons, etc., all being essentially alike, every science-fiction creator has his own universe, and they don't mesh. So I have to go from warp drive to slipstream drive to jump drive to hyperdrive to who-knows-what. Compared to that, going from CoH to CO was cake. Sure, it's different. But approach it on its own merits, as someone else's take on a superhero game, and you might find something in it that helps. You'll sure find more animal heads there; to my knowledge, CoH didn't have gorillas, deer, alligators or rats!

So take us to slipstream, FenrirEX, and warp speed ahead! And may the Force help you to live long and prosper. Never give up; never surrender!

Wait a minute...that's not...did I...?

Frack!
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 05:50:31 PM by Super Firebug »
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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #81 on: June 27, 2013, 12:44:39 PM »
The one thing I really, really wanted was a "clear" bubble costume that could have been colored. It would have been nice to be able to add stuff inside like clouds, smoke swirls, bubbles and so on.

The CoH Bubble costume (default) in the creator I wanted badly!

LadyVamp

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #82 on: June 27, 2013, 12:58:14 PM »
There'll be mice? Kitty'll be SO looking forward to welcoming them!

:blink: "Standard", Gracie?

And they will be glad to meet kitty...with their multi-function plasma rifles...if necessary.
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LadyVamp

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #83 on: June 27, 2013, 01:17:17 PM »
Great, now you've got me thinking that mice all run around in HALO suits and the nests we know about are just training facilities.

... oh even better, NOW you've got me thinking that there's a nest of blue-armored mice in our basement and a nest of red-armored mice in our shed and they're at war with each other for some reason that nobody told them. And they have plasma rifles!!! Tiny, adorable little plasma rifles! :o

They're fighting over the refrigerator and pantry.

Lil Cosmic Mouse was an ff/dual pistol def.  She wore her other body armour most of the time.  White body armour with black accents.  She looked like a helmetless mini-stormtrooper with a rodent tail with the teddy bear ears (they look more mouse like than the rat ears did).

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Re: How does one keep from giving up?
« Reply #84 on: June 27, 2013, 09:32:33 PM »
You would then guarantee absolute failure, a design-by bureaucracy due to the sheer number of people involved.

There is considerable talent, too much talent in fact to produce a single game. As it is, one of the projects is suffering from too-many-people syndrome, and is having to grow its management in order to remain viable. So to make it work, you would in effect have to get rid of most of the talent, to keep it viable for development. This means wasted talent.

That we have three projects is because we have so many talented people here. It's not because we just one day went "Oh, I want to make a game." Each one has a very different end-goal, even if we all came from the same origin, our love of CoH.

I guess the proof of whether or not multiple projects is beneficial will come when (or if) any of the projects see the light of day.

I'm not trying to be negative here but surely patience and continued negotiations may have resulted in a coordinated project?

I's be interested to know just exactly what the creative differences were that made it impossible for this to happen - if anyone can point me to a link or summarize it?