Author Topic: telekinesis  (Read 17224 times)

ukaserex

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telekinesis
« on: May 18, 2013, 09:30:51 PM »
Would those of you that believe in telekinesis please raise my hand?  ;D
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TimtheEnchanter

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2013, 10:22:05 PM »
There's a difference between believing in telekinesis, and actually performing it.  8)

Triplash

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2013, 11:52:08 PM »
Can't do that, sorry. With great power comes great responsibility, or whatever.

I mean first I'd have to raise your hands up in the air, then I'd have to wave 'em like I just don't care. That sounds like a lot of work for a party trick, man. And of course I've gotta do it for the next guy who asks too, and the next guy... before you know it my superpower is just another stupid YouTube video everybody's laughing at.

PASS. :P

Mister Bison

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2013, 04:31:20 PM »
Please choose how you want to rise your hand first:
- Because you looked at a nauseating image, and have to put your hand on your mouth ?
- Because I hacked your mouse and provoked a slight shock to your hand, surprising you ?
- Because I tell you that there is a spider descending on your hair, you believe me and check with your hand ?
- or because you'll find these idea stupid and facepalm ?
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Segev

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2013, 06:04:59 PM »
"Ukaserex, would you please raise your hand?"

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2013, 07:40:00 PM »
Keep your hand at the level of your eye!

Mister Bison

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2013, 07:40:28 PM »
Actually, I have something that may work.

Stand in a doorway, or next to a wall, lean against the vertical surface on your arm straight down, and try to lift it (of course, you won't), but try for approximately 30 seconds, while your arm stays straight down, parallel to and forcing on the vertical surface.

Didn't work ? I'm sorry, walk away... Ah, there it works now !
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Segev

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2013, 02:26:58 AM »
There was - I think on this very forum - an article linked some time ago. In it, a layman-friendly explanation of why science can prove that telekinesis - defined as moving objects by thought alone - is not possible. The central thesis was that for thought alone to move something, the brain (or another organ responding to brain signals - i.e. thought - somewhere in the human body) must be generating force to actuate the motion. We have several known forces; none of these can the human brain - or, indeed, any organ in the human body - generate in quantities and with the control required to create telekinetic manipulation of objects.

Therefore, if telekinesis is a thing - or at least, so goes the argument - it must be a hitherto unknown force. Here's where the article gets interesting. It makes the claim - believably, though not sufficiently that I can repeat the argument from memory - that such an unknown force would have already been detected if it had sufficient strength-at-range to perform as indicated. More precisely, for it to be strong enough to do what is described, it would have to have influences that we would already have detected. If it is not detectable by our modern science, it must exist on a range that is sufficiently small as to cause it to not act beyond its generating particle.

So, I can buy that. We certainly don't have undisputed documented evidence of TK-users.

However, my engineering brain latched onto this problem of proof-by-negation. It relies on the contradiction of sufficient range and sufficient strength being such that we would have detected it if it had both.

What, however, if there were two forces acting in tandem? One with sufficient range, and one with sufficient strength? It would require that the object being moved actually generate the force, and use it to act upon itself in some way to cause motion. This raises the sticky question of how that's TK, and how it would be at the thought-behest of the human telekinetic.

What if the human brain - or another organ in the body - CAN generate a force of sufficient range, but such insignificant strength that we've yet to figure out how to detect it? Well, if we assume that some very fine sensor in our body or brain can detect said force, that could, first of all, explain telepathy; we send signals back and forth that only our brains can detect!

But what about telekinesis?

For this, I turn your attention to how your arm works. Your brain - possessed of a thought - commands the arm to move. Perhaps to click "reply" beneath this post, so you can tell me I'm full of it (because I am, quite honestly, being quite venturesome into the realm of "what if" in the interest of constructing an argument for something in which I am not an actual believer). When you order your arm and hand to do this, your brain doesn't generate a force that actually causes your finger to be externally manipulated. No, what it does is send an electrical signal to your muscles, which respond to the signal by triggering additional biomechanical forces and contracting in specific ways so as to cause your arm to move the mouse and click the mouse button.

But this example gets even better.

Let's say that the button isn't the "reply" button on this board, but a button that is an interface control for a simple toy crane that will pick up a marble and drop it at the start of a Rube-Goldberg device.

Having clicked the mouse, is the motion of your finger generating force that causes the crane to move? No, again, it is not. It sends still more electric signals racing through your computer, until a command signal exits the port connected to the crane, and the crane's servos and motors generate the forces necessary.

A similar example comes from the R/C car, such as many of us doubtless owned when we were small children. The little kid's brain is not reaching out and manipulating the car, exerting external force on it. It is sending signals to the kid's hands, which are creating force in his muscles of his fingers, and which then manipulate signal-generation switches on the remote control. These, in turn, send radio signals to the car. The radio signals can't move something of the car's mass even one milimeter. However, they induce signals in the car which trigger motors and servos and cause the car to self-propel, drawing power from its battery as needed to do so.

Is the child telekinetic? To ancient peoples, he would certainly seem so. Or at least wizardly, wielding the strange boxy wand to command the strange tiny demonic creature that whirrs along on the ground at his whim.

So, then, what if there is a force our brains (or other organ in our bodies) can generate which is so weak that our technology cannot yet detect it? What if that force interacts with base matter in a particular way, inducing command signals which cause ordered release of a very strong, short-ranged force whose range is, likewise, so small that our technology cannot detect it? We still would need to explain from whence the energy to power the force's movement of the object comes from, but this does neatly side-step the scientific explanation for why humans cannot, supposedly, be telekinetic.


This is, in essence, what my quote asking ukaserex was intended to hint at: I would have, by thinking and thus inducing my fingers to type and send the post, caused a signal to reach ukaserex's brain which, should he have chosen to comply, would have resulted in his arm being raised. Now, we can argue that the fact he has a choice means that I am divorced from the action sufficiently to deny any claim of TK. But...the R/C car has no free will, and it would move as I commanded, were I to be in possession of its remote.

johnrobey

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2013, 03:54:00 PM »
While it is not telekinesis, neural impulses to muscles alone are an excellent example of Mind over Matter.  Thanks for your thoughtful post, Segev!   8)
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Triplash

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2013, 08:37:56 PM »
So I take it none of these things worked then, huh? Oh well, good try anyway. High five!

johnrobey

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2013, 04:32:01 AM »
So I take it none of these things worked then, huh? Oh well, good try anyway. High five!
Hee hee! A High Five would get me to raise my hand and oops!  I would have fulfilled the "telekinesis" test, since it could be argued that you, Triplash, had caused my hand to raise.  Another solid approach of course would be hypnotism; however, assuming I recall CoH lore correctly, Mind/Mental Controller/Dominator powers are distinctly different from Telekinesis, per se.   ;)
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Reaper

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2013, 12:42:01 AM »
Actually, I have something that may work.

Stand in a doorway, or next to a wall, lean against the vertical surface on your arm straight down, and try to lift it (of course, you won't), but try for approximately 30 seconds, while your arm stays straight down, parallel to and forcing on the vertical surface.

Didn't work ? I'm sorry, walk away... Ah, there it works now !
Heh heh!  I remember doing this as a child!  It was fun trying to prove to other people that they couldn't control their floating arm..
Patiently lurking from the shadows...

Segev

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2013, 01:56:29 PM »
While it is not telekinesis, neural impulses to muscles alone are an excellent example of Mind over Matter.  Thanks for your thoughtful post, Segev!   8)
My pleasure. I do want to re-iterate the notion that an R/C car looks like some sort of psychic or magical control to those who do not understand the science.

Mister Bison

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2013, 09:13:54 PM »
My pleasure. I do want to re-iterate the notion that an R/C car looks like some sort of psychic or magical control to those who do not understand the science.
Or do not notice the R/C when it is too small... (or, Soon(tm), with new types of controllers)

Reminds me that "Any suficiently advanced science do look like Magic".

...And that "Any sufficiently advanced bug do look like a feature"...
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Segev

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2013, 09:35:51 PM »
Oh, sure.

But what is most fascinating to me is the question: can a radio signal move a car? The answer, of course, is "yes," but only because it can trigger controls that activate systems within the car that cause the motion.

And yet, if you think about it, those very controls are exerting some force, which enables other forces to take over.

"Can force so weak that it couldn't move a 1g bead cause a 2-ton car to move?" Yes. But only because it's a control signal.

Even fully understanding the science behind it, it's fascinating to me. Like a lever on steroids. Nudge this little tiny rock with negligible force, and it can cause an entire dam to collapse after cascading force interactions finish.

So, then: If the human body has within it some mysterious organ that can generate a signal so weak we cannot detect it, which can cause particles within a remote object to interact with a powerful force so short-range we cannot detect it, is that telekinesis?

If it is, what would the difference be if we found a way to generate radio waves with cybernetic brain implants that could be used to control an R/C car?

Mister Bison

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2013, 07:32:06 AM »
So, then: If the human body has within it some mysterious organ that can generate a signal so weak we cannot detect it, which can cause particles within a remote object to interact with a powerful force so short-range we cannot detect it, is that telekinesis?
There is no answer, because of your premises: if the mysterious force is so weak you can't detect it, how can you build a control to trigger on this force ?

Another more fundamental question is: would being able to mentally levitate a dry hair at most still count as telekinesis ?
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Segev

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2013, 01:05:53 PM »
There is no answer, because of your premises: if the mysterious force is so weak you can't detect it, how can you build a control to trigger on this force ?
Well, the premise isn't that we are building this detector, but rather that there already exists something within the target that reacts to it (and thus detects it). Nature, so to speak, already detects it and triggers on it.

Note: I'm not saying this actually happens. I'm saying that this is how, given the limitations of the theory as to the proof that TK can't possibly happen being based on the fact that we should be able to detect whatever force would be used, TK could still happen without us knowing what organ generates the force and how. (It has the added benefit of explaining why it might not be exhausting for the human to generate the force...and raises the question of where the energy is drawn from.)

Another more fundamental question is: would being able to mentally levitate a dry hair at most still count as telekinesis ?
Well, if we go by the most literal definition, "tele" = "at a distance" and "kinesis" = "motion." But, that literal breakdown isn't quite what is meant, or using a grabber-arm tool would count as "telekinesis."

The classic definition is "moving things with your mind." The question you ask is whether moving a hair would count. So, let's open this discussion up. For our purposes of defining "telekinesis," what would be sufficient to call something "telekinesis," and what would be necessary for something to potentially be "telekinesis?"

The former will constitute proof, if demonstrated, that it exists. The latter establishes ways to definitively disqualify something as "telekinesis," should it fail to exhibit the necessary properties.

Mister Bison

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2013, 03:41:11 PM »
Well, the premise isn't that we are building this detector, but rather that there already exists something within the target that reacts to it (and thus detects it). Nature, so to speak, already detects it and triggers on it.

Note: I'm not saying this actually happens. I'm saying that this is how, given the limitations of the theory as to the proof that TK can't possibly happen being based on the fact that we should be able to detect whatever force would be used, TK could still happen without us knowing what organ generates the force and how. (It has the added benefit of explaining why it might not be exhausting for the human to generate the force...and raises the question of where the energy is drawn from.)
Well, if we go by the most literal definition, "tele" = "at a distance" and "kinesis" = "motion." But, that literal breakdown isn't quite what is meant, or using a grabber-arm tool would count as "telekinesis."
I wasn't saying you're building a detector, you're building a "control".

Anyway, what I wanted to point was, if there is something in nature that reacts to the mysterious force, and you are aware of it (not even how it works. You can obviously detect the response of the natural mechanism to the force), then it's impossible to say "We can't detect this mysterious force" anymore. That's a paradox. Then, there is something wrong in (one of) the premise.
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Segev

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2013, 03:48:01 PM »
I wasn't saying you're building a detector, you're building a "control".

Anyway, if there is something in nature that reacts to the mysterious force, and you are aware of it (not even how it works), then it's impossible to say "We can't detect this mysterious force" anymore. That's a paradox. Then, there is something wrong in (one of) the premise.
"We can't detect it" has an implied "with our current known technology."

If the only way to detect it is to witness somebody utilizing telekinesis, then we have little way of knowing if it's due to a "control force" or due to some other mechanism we REALLY don't understand.

One can theorize the existence of something which one has, as of yet, no way to detect. There is no paradox - regardless of what atheists may say - in hypothesizing the existence of God and then admitting that you have no hard undeniable proof of His existence. Atheists may question the validity of that belief, but they can't prove it wrong through pure logic vis a vis disproof-by-paradox.

Ergo, this hypothetical force can be hypothesized without paradox.

...ah, a better example, going back to the R/C car: drop it back in ancient Rome and hand the control to a Roman child. They can clearly see the car's response to the use of the remote control. They have no means of detecting the RF signal being used, except to witness that the car responds to it. That does not make the RF signal paradoxical. It is an undetectable force, to them.

dwturducken

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2013, 05:02:34 PM »
This is starting to sound like the argument I ended up in with my teenager when I was trying to explain to him that gravity was actually a weak force. :)
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."