Author Topic: telekinesis  (Read 17225 times)

ukaserex

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telekinesis
« on: May 18, 2013, 09:30:51 PM »
Would those of you that believe in telekinesis please raise my hand?  ;D
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TimtheEnchanter

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2013, 10:22:05 PM »
There's a difference between believing in telekinesis, and actually performing it.  8)

Triplash

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2013, 11:52:08 PM »
Can't do that, sorry. With great power comes great responsibility, or whatever.

I mean first I'd have to raise your hands up in the air, then I'd have to wave 'em like I just don't care. That sounds like a lot of work for a party trick, man. And of course I've gotta do it for the next guy who asks too, and the next guy... before you know it my superpower is just another stupid YouTube video everybody's laughing at.

PASS. :P

Mister Bison

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2013, 04:31:20 PM »
Please choose how you want to rise your hand first:
- Because you looked at a nauseating image, and have to put your hand on your mouth ?
- Because I hacked your mouse and provoked a slight shock to your hand, surprising you ?
- Because I tell you that there is a spider descending on your hair, you believe me and check with your hand ?
- or because you'll find these idea stupid and facepalm ?
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Segev

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2013, 06:04:59 PM »
"Ukaserex, would you please raise your hand?"

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2013, 07:40:00 PM »
Keep your hand at the level of your eye!

Mister Bison

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2013, 07:40:28 PM »
Actually, I have something that may work.

Stand in a doorway, or next to a wall, lean against the vertical surface on your arm straight down, and try to lift it (of course, you won't), but try for approximately 30 seconds, while your arm stays straight down, parallel to and forcing on the vertical surface.

Didn't work ? I'm sorry, walk away... Ah, there it works now !
Yeeessss....

Segev

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2013, 02:26:58 AM »
There was - I think on this very forum - an article linked some time ago. In it, a layman-friendly explanation of why science can prove that telekinesis - defined as moving objects by thought alone - is not possible. The central thesis was that for thought alone to move something, the brain (or another organ responding to brain signals - i.e. thought - somewhere in the human body) must be generating force to actuate the motion. We have several known forces; none of these can the human brain - or, indeed, any organ in the human body - generate in quantities and with the control required to create telekinetic manipulation of objects.

Therefore, if telekinesis is a thing - or at least, so goes the argument - it must be a hitherto unknown force. Here's where the article gets interesting. It makes the claim - believably, though not sufficiently that I can repeat the argument from memory - that such an unknown force would have already been detected if it had sufficient strength-at-range to perform as indicated. More precisely, for it to be strong enough to do what is described, it would have to have influences that we would already have detected. If it is not detectable by our modern science, it must exist on a range that is sufficiently small as to cause it to not act beyond its generating particle.

So, I can buy that. We certainly don't have undisputed documented evidence of TK-users.

However, my engineering brain latched onto this problem of proof-by-negation. It relies on the contradiction of sufficient range and sufficient strength being such that we would have detected it if it had both.

What, however, if there were two forces acting in tandem? One with sufficient range, and one with sufficient strength? It would require that the object being moved actually generate the force, and use it to act upon itself in some way to cause motion. This raises the sticky question of how that's TK, and how it would be at the thought-behest of the human telekinetic.

What if the human brain - or another organ in the body - CAN generate a force of sufficient range, but such insignificant strength that we've yet to figure out how to detect it? Well, if we assume that some very fine sensor in our body or brain can detect said force, that could, first of all, explain telepathy; we send signals back and forth that only our brains can detect!

But what about telekinesis?

For this, I turn your attention to how your arm works. Your brain - possessed of a thought - commands the arm to move. Perhaps to click "reply" beneath this post, so you can tell me I'm full of it (because I am, quite honestly, being quite venturesome into the realm of "what if" in the interest of constructing an argument for something in which I am not an actual believer). When you order your arm and hand to do this, your brain doesn't generate a force that actually causes your finger to be externally manipulated. No, what it does is send an electrical signal to your muscles, which respond to the signal by triggering additional biomechanical forces and contracting in specific ways so as to cause your arm to move the mouse and click the mouse button.

But this example gets even better.

Let's say that the button isn't the "reply" button on this board, but a button that is an interface control for a simple toy crane that will pick up a marble and drop it at the start of a Rube-Goldberg device.

Having clicked the mouse, is the motion of your finger generating force that causes the crane to move? No, again, it is not. It sends still more electric signals racing through your computer, until a command signal exits the port connected to the crane, and the crane's servos and motors generate the forces necessary.

A similar example comes from the R/C car, such as many of us doubtless owned when we were small children. The little kid's brain is not reaching out and manipulating the car, exerting external force on it. It is sending signals to the kid's hands, which are creating force in his muscles of his fingers, and which then manipulate signal-generation switches on the remote control. These, in turn, send radio signals to the car. The radio signals can't move something of the car's mass even one milimeter. However, they induce signals in the car which trigger motors and servos and cause the car to self-propel, drawing power from its battery as needed to do so.

Is the child telekinetic? To ancient peoples, he would certainly seem so. Or at least wizardly, wielding the strange boxy wand to command the strange tiny demonic creature that whirrs along on the ground at his whim.

So, then, what if there is a force our brains (or other organ in our bodies) can generate which is so weak that our technology cannot yet detect it? What if that force interacts with base matter in a particular way, inducing command signals which cause ordered release of a very strong, short-ranged force whose range is, likewise, so small that our technology cannot detect it? We still would need to explain from whence the energy to power the force's movement of the object comes from, but this does neatly side-step the scientific explanation for why humans cannot, supposedly, be telekinetic.


This is, in essence, what my quote asking ukaserex was intended to hint at: I would have, by thinking and thus inducing my fingers to type and send the post, caused a signal to reach ukaserex's brain which, should he have chosen to comply, would have resulted in his arm being raised. Now, we can argue that the fact he has a choice means that I am divorced from the action sufficiently to deny any claim of TK. But...the R/C car has no free will, and it would move as I commanded, were I to be in possession of its remote.

johnrobey

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2013, 03:54:00 PM »
While it is not telekinesis, neural impulses to muscles alone are an excellent example of Mind over Matter.  Thanks for your thoughtful post, Segev!   8)
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Triplash

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2013, 08:37:56 PM »
So I take it none of these things worked then, huh? Oh well, good try anyway. High five!

johnrobey

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2013, 04:32:01 AM »
So I take it none of these things worked then, huh? Oh well, good try anyway. High five!
Hee hee! A High Five would get me to raise my hand and oops!  I would have fulfilled the "telekinesis" test, since it could be argued that you, Triplash, had caused my hand to raise.  Another solid approach of course would be hypnotism; however, assuming I recall CoH lore correctly, Mind/Mental Controller/Dominator powers are distinctly different from Telekinesis, per se.   ;)
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Reaper

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2013, 12:42:01 AM »
Actually, I have something that may work.

Stand in a doorway, or next to a wall, lean against the vertical surface on your arm straight down, and try to lift it (of course, you won't), but try for approximately 30 seconds, while your arm stays straight down, parallel to and forcing on the vertical surface.

Didn't work ? I'm sorry, walk away... Ah, there it works now !
Heh heh!  I remember doing this as a child!  It was fun trying to prove to other people that they couldn't control their floating arm..
Patiently lurking from the shadows...

Segev

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2013, 01:56:29 PM »
While it is not telekinesis, neural impulses to muscles alone are an excellent example of Mind over Matter.  Thanks for your thoughtful post, Segev!   8)
My pleasure. I do want to re-iterate the notion that an R/C car looks like some sort of psychic or magical control to those who do not understand the science.

Mister Bison

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2013, 09:13:54 PM »
My pleasure. I do want to re-iterate the notion that an R/C car looks like some sort of psychic or magical control to those who do not understand the science.
Or do not notice the R/C when it is too small... (or, Soon(tm), with new types of controllers)

Reminds me that "Any suficiently advanced science do look like Magic".

...And that "Any sufficiently advanced bug do look like a feature"...
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Segev

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2013, 09:35:51 PM »
Oh, sure.

But what is most fascinating to me is the question: can a radio signal move a car? The answer, of course, is "yes," but only because it can trigger controls that activate systems within the car that cause the motion.

And yet, if you think about it, those very controls are exerting some force, which enables other forces to take over.

"Can force so weak that it couldn't move a 1g bead cause a 2-ton car to move?" Yes. But only because it's a control signal.

Even fully understanding the science behind it, it's fascinating to me. Like a lever on steroids. Nudge this little tiny rock with negligible force, and it can cause an entire dam to collapse after cascading force interactions finish.

So, then: If the human body has within it some mysterious organ that can generate a signal so weak we cannot detect it, which can cause particles within a remote object to interact with a powerful force so short-range we cannot detect it, is that telekinesis?

If it is, what would the difference be if we found a way to generate radio waves with cybernetic brain implants that could be used to control an R/C car?

Mister Bison

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2013, 07:32:06 AM »
So, then: If the human body has within it some mysterious organ that can generate a signal so weak we cannot detect it, which can cause particles within a remote object to interact with a powerful force so short-range we cannot detect it, is that telekinesis?
There is no answer, because of your premises: if the mysterious force is so weak you can't detect it, how can you build a control to trigger on this force ?

Another more fundamental question is: would being able to mentally levitate a dry hair at most still count as telekinesis ?
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Segev

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2013, 01:05:53 PM »
There is no answer, because of your premises: if the mysterious force is so weak you can't detect it, how can you build a control to trigger on this force ?
Well, the premise isn't that we are building this detector, but rather that there already exists something within the target that reacts to it (and thus detects it). Nature, so to speak, already detects it and triggers on it.

Note: I'm not saying this actually happens. I'm saying that this is how, given the limitations of the theory as to the proof that TK can't possibly happen being based on the fact that we should be able to detect whatever force would be used, TK could still happen without us knowing what organ generates the force and how. (It has the added benefit of explaining why it might not be exhausting for the human to generate the force...and raises the question of where the energy is drawn from.)

Another more fundamental question is: would being able to mentally levitate a dry hair at most still count as telekinesis ?
Well, if we go by the most literal definition, "tele" = "at a distance" and "kinesis" = "motion." But, that literal breakdown isn't quite what is meant, or using a grabber-arm tool would count as "telekinesis."

The classic definition is "moving things with your mind." The question you ask is whether moving a hair would count. So, let's open this discussion up. For our purposes of defining "telekinesis," what would be sufficient to call something "telekinesis," and what would be necessary for something to potentially be "telekinesis?"

The former will constitute proof, if demonstrated, that it exists. The latter establishes ways to definitively disqualify something as "telekinesis," should it fail to exhibit the necessary properties.

Mister Bison

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2013, 03:41:11 PM »
Well, the premise isn't that we are building this detector, but rather that there already exists something within the target that reacts to it (and thus detects it). Nature, so to speak, already detects it and triggers on it.

Note: I'm not saying this actually happens. I'm saying that this is how, given the limitations of the theory as to the proof that TK can't possibly happen being based on the fact that we should be able to detect whatever force would be used, TK could still happen without us knowing what organ generates the force and how. (It has the added benefit of explaining why it might not be exhausting for the human to generate the force...and raises the question of where the energy is drawn from.)
Well, if we go by the most literal definition, "tele" = "at a distance" and "kinesis" = "motion." But, that literal breakdown isn't quite what is meant, or using a grabber-arm tool would count as "telekinesis."
I wasn't saying you're building a detector, you're building a "control".

Anyway, what I wanted to point was, if there is something in nature that reacts to the mysterious force, and you are aware of it (not even how it works. You can obviously detect the response of the natural mechanism to the force), then it's impossible to say "We can't detect this mysterious force" anymore. That's a paradox. Then, there is something wrong in (one of) the premise.
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Segev

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2013, 03:48:01 PM »
I wasn't saying you're building a detector, you're building a "control".

Anyway, if there is something in nature that reacts to the mysterious force, and you are aware of it (not even how it works), then it's impossible to say "We can't detect this mysterious force" anymore. That's a paradox. Then, there is something wrong in (one of) the premise.
"We can't detect it" has an implied "with our current known technology."

If the only way to detect it is to witness somebody utilizing telekinesis, then we have little way of knowing if it's due to a "control force" or due to some other mechanism we REALLY don't understand.

One can theorize the existence of something which one has, as of yet, no way to detect. There is no paradox - regardless of what atheists may say - in hypothesizing the existence of God and then admitting that you have no hard undeniable proof of His existence. Atheists may question the validity of that belief, but they can't prove it wrong through pure logic vis a vis disproof-by-paradox.

Ergo, this hypothetical force can be hypothesized without paradox.

...ah, a better example, going back to the R/C car: drop it back in ancient Rome and hand the control to a Roman child. They can clearly see the car's response to the use of the remote control. They have no means of detecting the RF signal being used, except to witness that the car responds to it. That does not make the RF signal paradoxical. It is an undetectable force, to them.

dwturducken

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2013, 05:02:34 PM »
This is starting to sound like the argument I ended up in with my teenager when I was trying to explain to him that gravity was actually a weak force. :)
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

GuyPerfect

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2013, 05:05:32 PM »
The reason the argument persisted is because he kept insisting that gravity isn't a force, but rather a curve in spacetime? (-:

Quantum mechanics makes scientists say some pretty silly stuff. Or maybe not. Probably both, at least until someone observes them saying it.

Segev

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2013, 05:12:01 PM »
I do tend to be of the school of thought that it is a mistake to group gravity with the electromagnetic, weak, and strong forces. Each of those demonstrate two properties: a known mediation particle, and the ability to attract AND repel. Gravity is hypothesized to have the former, and might have the latter if the former exists. However, I think it more likely gravity really IS just a result of curving space-time.

Until we prove the existence of definite lack of a mediation particle - a "graviton" - however, we won't be able to definitively settle that debate.

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2013, 06:27:31 PM »
On the topic of undetectable forces (at least by tech/chemical means) I wouldn't put things like this outside the realm of possibility. We probably haven't even scratched the surface of how the body works.

I can't say one way or the other about telekinesis on the scientific front, but there are other things that are equally freaky and interesting that show promise, but haven't been given enough analysis.

Organ donor memory transfer: There are numerous examples of this, but the big one is when a person received a heart transplant from a murder victim. Following the procedure, the recipient began having nightmares about death and violence, with enough clarity that it led to the arrest of the victim's murderer.

Messages sent through time: Subjects were instructed to study materials in preparation for a test. After they took the test, half of the subjects were instructed to study the materials again. Looking back at the test scores, statistics showed that the subjects who studied both before and after the test, scored higher than those who only studied before.

Science has even been forced to admit that some things that are true, may not produce any evidence that will ever testable or detectable. String theory, for instance.

Segev

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2013, 06:46:23 PM »
No offense, but I find string theory to be a crock. It is not self-consistent (which is the primary thing people keep trying to study it to fix), and it's theorized as a means of explaining how gravity is unified to the other known fundamental forces. Which, as I stated, I think is a mistaken approach. Gravity is merely inertia in warped space-time.

I will admit that my own theories result in some backwards predictions of how relativity actually works, however, so I will not claim that I have some brilliant solution to modern physics problems that are as-yet unsolved. If I did, I assure you, I'd be attempting to publish. ;)

Speaking as a scientist, I bring up the "what if" of a super-weak unknown and as-yet undetectable-by-our-technology force combined with a super-short-range unknown and similarly undetectable force to create TK-like effects not because I am convinced that we have compelling evidence that TK exists, but because the theoretical explanation for why it's supposedly impossible is demonstrably flawed by this suggestion. Through no violation of known physical laws and our accumulated body of research, this would still permit not just TK, but telepathy (and, by extension, empathy). If there exists a human organ that can generate this super-weak force that gets picked up by particles on the receiving end, thoughts could be encoded and transmitted and then later detected, as well.


As an alternate TK hypothesis, it could be a 4th dimensional trick. To illustrate, picture a piece of paper with a 2D "person" who lives in that plane. Picture a sphere embedded halfway into that paper. Now picture something that looks like that 2D person in cross-section sitting there, talking to the 2D person about how he's telekinetic. This second "something" is a 3D entity with arms that reach up and down out of the page. He uses these to grasp the sphere on the top and bottom, and move it around.

To the 2D person, it looks like the circle is moving around without anything touching it. The "something" doing the moving is moving it, seemingly without touching it, as far as the 2D person can see.

A set of "arms" extending into a 4th dimension and reaching out to manipulate an object's components that lie in other coordinates of that dimension than our own would allow somebody who could control said arms to move objects, again seemingly at a distance. It would seem like TK.

We would have no modern technological means of detecting where the force generation is coming from, because we can't point our instruments in this 4th dimensional direction to "see" the arms that extend out of our space through the hyperspace.


And if you're having trouble picturing that, don't feel bad. I can't picture it, either, properly. I have a lot of 3D cross-sections in my head and projections where I squash a dimension to try to get a feel for it, and it STILL doesn't really picture right. Picturing more than 3D is impossible for me; it might be impossible for any human (I'm not sure).

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2013, 07:06:24 PM »
And if you're having trouble picturing that, don't feel bad. I can't picture it, either, properly. I have a lot of 3D cross-sections in my head and projections where I squash a dimension to try to get a feel for it, and it STILL doesn't really picture right. Picturing more than 3D is impossible for me; it might be impossible for any human (I'm not sure).

There are apps out there that were created to try teaching kids to navigate a hypercube (I guess because they wanted to know if 4D space was even theoretically manageable by our brains). It needs stereo glasses to use it properly though, so I never played with it.

Segev

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2013, 07:13:52 PM »
There ARE ways we can effectively work with hyperdimensionality, but it effectively involves discretizing space.

Consider, instead of a line, an array. Each cell is one unit along it. Stack multiple arrays to get a 2D matrix. Stack 2D matrices to get a 3D matrix. A 4D matrix would just be a collection of 3D matrices. Jumping from one to the next can be done conceptually, even if we can't properly picture the hypercube shape.

GuyPerfect

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2013, 07:44:34 PM »
However, I think it more likely gravity really IS just a result of curving space-time.

Forward: I'm not trying to convert anyone. I'm just calling it like I see it.

My main objection to the assertion is that, by definition, spacetime was invented to express real-world models and calculations where time was one of the components. It effectively boils down to a fancy coordinate system. And it was designed, by humans, to express the behavior of the real world.

Consider, if you will, the trajectory of an object as it moves over time:



In this recklessly oversimplified context, the bird's elevation could be seen as the Y axis in that image and time the X axis. The bird's elevation changes over time: first it increases, then it decreases.

In this 2-dimensional analog to spacetime, one might say that the bird's elevation changes due to the curve in its trajectory. But think about that for a second: can you really use the trajectory of an object--before the object's motion actually occurs--as the basis of describing the physical processes that will take place? Of course you can't; that's circular reasoning. "The bird will fall because it will fall."

Rather, the trajectory, plotted over time by the white dotted line, is an observation of the bird's movement. The graph is only there as a convenience for us humans so we can analyze, and in some cases calculate in advance, the path of the bird's movement. It is not, however, the definition of why the bird moves. In the same sense, it's inappropriate to define the game's gravity as "a curve in the dotted line", because that curve comes about as a result of the gravity mechanic.

To suggest that gravity is defined as curvature in spacetime seems preposterous because spacetime in and of itself was invented as a means of expressing real-world behaviors. For as long as my bathroom scale spins around uncontrollably when I step on it, I'll hold fast to the notion of gravity being a force.

Jumping from one to the next can be done conceptually, even if we can't properly picture the hypercube shape.

I did that once while working on a successor to Titan Sentinel. I was processing each language for each gender of each title for each Badge.

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2013, 07:53:57 PM »
Consider, instead of a line, an array. Each cell is one unit along it. Stack multiple arrays to get a 2D matrix. Stack 2D matrices to get a 3D matrix. A 4D matrix would just be a collection of 3D matrices. Jumping from one to the next can be done conceptually, even if we can't properly picture the hypercube shape.

That's not as 'realistic' as what life would probably be like if we could travel in 4D though. 3D movement is all analog, so it's quirky at best to make the 4th dimensional movement be digital.

Segev

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2013, 10:12:09 PM »
My main objection to the assertion is that, by definition, spacetime was invented to express real-world models and calculations where time was one of the components. It effectively boils down to a fancy coordinate system. And it was designed, by humans, to express the behavior of the real world.

(...)

To suggest that gravity is defined as curvature in spacetime seems preposterous because spacetime in and of itself was invented as a means of expressing real-world behaviors. For as long as my bathroom scale spins around uncontrollably when I step on it, I'll hold fast to the notion of gravity being a force.
Yes and no. "Spacetime" is a word that was defined to identify a property that does exist; it isn't a human-thought-construct.

I'm not saying gravity is "defined" as anything; I'm saying that I think the force we observe as "gravity" is actually a lorentz transformation of 4D inertia into our 3D reference frame. Just as the centrifugal force, when you calculate a reference frame such that the spinning cylinder is stationary and the rest of the universe is spinning about it, appears all of a sudden as a "real" force, but is really just the Lorentz transformation of inertia in the Newtonian reference frame surrounding it.

When I comment on the non-existence of gravity as a "fundamental force," I mean it is not something that I believe will be observed to exist as a unifiable force with the other three (which have been demonstrated, under certain conditions, to be itnerchangeable and thus are symmetry-breaks of one unified force). It has no known/discovered mediating particle (unlike EM, which is mediated by photons, or the Strong Force, which is mediated by gluons, or the Weak force, which...shoot, I'm drawing a blank, but it also has a known mediating particle). It is never repulsive.

Therefore, I think it is probably just inertia, observed in a non-Newtonian 3D reference frame when the inertia is being applied in a 4D frame we cannot or have not calculated. (I have not attempted math to prove this, so take it with as large a grain of salt as you like.)

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2013, 10:31:02 PM »
"We can't detect it" has an implied "with our current known technology."

If the only way to detect it is to witness somebody utilizing telekinesis, then we have little way of knowing if it's due to a "control force" or due to some other mechanism we REALLY don't understand.

One can theorize the existence of something which one has, as of yet, no way to detect. There is no paradox - regardless of what atheists may say - in hypothesizing the existence of God and then admitting that you have no hard undeniable proof of His existence. Atheists may question the validity of that belief, but they can't prove it wrong through pure logic vis a vis disproof-by-paradox.

...ah, a better example, going back to the R/C car: drop it back in ancient Rome and hand the control to a Roman child. They can clearly see the car's response to the use of the remote control. They have no means of detecting the RF signal being used, except to witness that the car responds to it. That does not make the RF signal paradoxical. It is an undetectable force, to them.
OK, so just so you know, I took "We can't detect it" as "We sensed no change, or at least none accountable to a mysterious force instead of a force already known."

At your rate, only theoritizing things, even if there is no reproductible evidence of this thing, I can supputate there is a force of humor in this universe that force any experiment to fail miserably at the most important time... There is even some proof of this force, enough for earthlings to name it. "Murphy's Law".

And to rebound on your example, what's preventing the roman from creating a secret passage based on gears (known at the time from windmills) and putting the R/C car to propel (somewhat slowly) said gears to, say, lift a door. They successfully harnessed the mysterious force causing remote action to influence action on the car. Is that not their technology now ?

Forward: I'm not trying to convert anyone. I'm just calling it like I see it.

My main objection to the assertion is that, by definition, spacetime was invented to express real-world models and calculations where time was one of the components. It effectively boils down to a fancy coordinate system. And it was designed, by humans, to express the behavior of the real world.

Consider, if you will, the trajectory of an object as it moves over time:



In this recklessly oversimplified context, the bird's elevation could be seen as the Y axis in that image and time the X axis. The bird's elevation changes over time: first it increases, then it decreases.

In this 2-dimensional analog to spacetime, one might say that the bird's elevation changes due to the curve in its trajectory. But think about that for a second: can you really use the trajectory of an object--before the object's motion actually occurs--as the basis of describing the physical processes that will take place? Of course you can't; that's circular reasoning. "The bird will fall because it will fall."

Rather, the trajectory, plotted over time by the white dotted line, is an observation of the bird's movement. The graph is only there as a convenience for us humans so we can analyze, and in some cases calculate in advance, the path of the bird's movement. It is not, however, the definition of why the bird moves. In the same sense, it's inappropriate to define the game's gravity as "a curve in the dotted line", because that curve comes about as a result of the gravity mechanic.

To suggest that gravity is defined as curvature in spacetime seems preposterous because spacetime in and of itself was invented as a means of expressing real-world behaviors. For as long as my bathroom scale spins around uncontrollably when I step on it, I'll hold fast to the notion of gravity being a force.
If gravity was just a Force, it wouldn't have the relativity effects it has. (slower passing of time near very high mass). If time was just a fancy coordinate system, we would be able to move along time-axis as we like, and we can't, or don't. Or don't remember. Nor wouldn't we shrink because of speed (Einstein's explanation of speed of light discrepancies between two frames of reference).

That's not as 'realistic' as what life would probably be like if we could travel in 4D though. 3D movement is all analog, so it's quirky at best to make the 4th dimensional movement be digital.
I think that there is some evidence now that space may, in fact, just be not analog at all, but on a quantic grid. A very, very fine grid, but a grid nonetheless. I stumbled upon that when looking around quantic theory.
Yeeessss....

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #30 on: May 30, 2013, 01:17:16 PM »
OK, so just so you know, I took "We can't detect it" as "We sensed no change, or at least none accountable to a mysterious force instead of a force already known."
It's a question of how accurate your model of the force is, and how well you can detect that it works according to that model, and how complete that model is.

We have a fairly complete model of EM in the modern era. We fully understand how radio waves are controlling that R/C car. The only evidence the ancient Romans have that some force is in operation is that the car moves according to commands given by the remote.

At your rate, only theoritizing things, even if there is no reproductible evidence of this thing, I can supputate there is a force of humor in this universe that force any experiment to fail miserably at the most important time... There is even some proof of this force, enough for earthlings to name it. "Murphy's Law".
You can. I would actually - diverging a little here, sorry - qualify that as a legitimate moral force, because the actual result of "If anything can go wrong, it will" is not a statement of probability being perverse, but rather that anything you leave to chance is going to be one more possible failure point, and that potential failure points add up quickly. So the law is better described as, "Minimize the possible points of failure by making sure as many things are in a known-good state as possible before enacting any plan." Why is this a "moral" law? Because it's a law of prescribed behavior which, when disobeyed, has real consequences, but which is not inevitably going to be disastrous every time it's ignored. Phrased another way, it's a variant on, "If a job is worth doing, it's worth doing well."

And to rebound on your example, what's preventing the roman from creating a secret passage based on gears (known at the time from windmills) and putting the R/C car to propel (somewhat slowly) said gears to, say, lift a door. They successfully harnessed the mysterious force causing remote action to influence action on the car. Is that not their technology now ?
They have detected kinetic motion from the car, so as far as they know, there is a mysterious something causing the car to respond to the manipulation of the remote control. This gives them no further information about the nature of this force than they had prior (though it does help them figure out how strong the maximum kinetic energy of the car under its own power is).

They may even incorrectly conclude that this mysterious force is pushing the car directly, or at least directly pushing the car's wheels. They lack the technology to determine that there are, in fact, at least two forces at work: one communicative, and one mechanical. Even dissecting the car and determining that there is a motor that is pushed by "canned lightning" or the like would only give them a clear picture that, somehow, the car was compelled to channel its "canned lightning" into pushing its wheels to move itself. It would take a great deal of study and advancing technology to realize that "canned lightning" is a manifestation of the same force that creates the invisible phenomenon we know as "radio waves."

COULD they eventually figure it out, given the demonstration of the existence of this (to them) "mysterious force?" Sure; such things do spark leaps in technological advancement. But it would take R&D.

If we actually could find equally repeatable demonstrations of human telekinesis, we could begin to study it and trying to figure out how it worked, because we'd HAVE the example of it in action and could start with what we can measure to try to find where exactly the "mysterious force" is taking over from known forces and properties. That would help us develop hypothetical models, at which point we could start trying to design experiments to precisely detect something that obeys that model.

We say we "know" or "understand" something in science when we have a model that allows us to make reliable predictions with accuracy we consider sufficient. There is some judgment call there as to what is "sufficient," but we are capable of coming to reasonable consensus as to what is sufficient, in general. Generally, it's the point at which we're comfortable making predictions based on it. (This is why we still use Newtonian physics, despite knowing it has inaccuracies; on a human scale, it's accurate enough that we can make very useful predictions.)


I think that there is some evidence now that space may, in fact, just be not analog at all, but on a quantic grid. A very, very fine grid, but a grid nonetheless. I stumbled upon that when looking around quantic theory.
The interesting bit, to me, about this theory, is that it means there's a mechanism for defining precise location, and, moreover, for moving from one discrete location to another. If this is true, one is given to wonder what that mechanism for transport is, and how it can be used to, perhaps, "skip" one or more of these "quantic grid squares."

Thinking on this, it also opens the question as to the SHAPE of these grid spaces. What is the shape that tessellates the universe?

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2013, 03:27:14 PM »
If gravity was just a Force, it wouldn't have the relativity effects it has. (slower passing of time near very high mass).

I highly suspect that the observed "passage of time" relative to an object has a much simpler explanation than what the scientific community seems to have come up with. I think it has more to do with the movement of electrons than anything actually pertinent to time.

Electrons don't experience wind resistance, since they're smaller than wind. They're just flying around in the space between atomic nuclei, constantly changing direction (or, if they don't, they fly off and cause problems for other atoms). Since electrons have mass and momentum, whenever the nucleus they're orbiting begins to move, their orbit deforms and is no longer perfectly spherical. It has a longer orbit "behind" the nucleus, where it has to "catch up" in order to complete a revolution. Once it reaches the nucleus and swings around the other side, it will be moving in the opposite direction, meaning the relative velocities of nucleus to electron will be greater than if the nucleus was stationary.

This is some pretty basic stuff. It's the same principle that makes it rather difficult to play paddle-ball while sitting in an accelerating drag racer...

It's been observed that clocks--even super accurate atomic clocks--for whatever reason run more slowly when they're in motion, and the faster they move, the slower they run. Science has concluded that, due to observations of this sort, then the closer to the speed of light an object moves, the slower time moves for that object.

But consider the following... Recall that electrons have mass and momentum, and are constantly changing direction. They don't move anywhere near the speed of light, so if the atom's nucleus is exceeding the speed of the electron, the atom will fall apart. Having said that, the amount of time the electrons "catch up" will increase the closer the nucleus is to the speed of said electrons. The orbit of the electrons will become highly elliptical, whipping around the nucleus in short order not unlike what comet ISON will do when it passes the sun later this year. This yeilds fewer revolutions over time which, it could be argued, will resemble a slowing of the passage of time if applied to a stationary object.

Likewise, for large bodies of matter, the gravity and/or charge of the body will exert more force on smaller objects, potentially pulling their electrons into a non-spherical orbit just like moving fast does. I'll gladly accept this explanation long before entertaining any notions of "speed of light = time travel"


If time was just a fancy coordinate system [...]

I didn't say time was a fancy coordinate system. Time is a unique concept; it's difficult to describe it without using the word "time" in the definition. What I said was like a coordinate system was spacetime, which we use as a reasoning aid to correlate mathematics with real-world physical behaviors.


I think that there is some evidence now that space may, in fact, just be not analog at all, but on a quantic grid. A very, very fine grid, but a grid nonetheless. I stumbled upon that when looking around quantic theory.

Mum. (It's the word!)

Segev

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #32 on: May 30, 2013, 03:42:53 PM »
I highly suspect that the observed "passage of time" relative to an object has a much simpler explanation than what the scientific community seems to have come up with. I think it has more to do with the movement of electrons than anything actually pertinent to time.

Electrons don't experience wind resistance, since they're smaller than wind. They're just flying around in the space between atomic nuclei, constantly changing direction (or, if they don't, they fly off and cause problems for other atoms). Since electrons have mass and momentum, whenever the nucleus they're orbiting begins to move, their orbit deforms and is no longer perfectly spherical. It has a longer orbit "behind" the nucleus, where it has to "catch up" in order to complete a revolution. Once it reaches the nucleus and swings around the other side, it will be moving in the opposite direction, meaning the relative velocities of nucleus to electron will be greater than if the nucleus was stationary.
Actually, you're way, way off here. "Wind resistance" wouldn't have anything to do with the effects you describe one way or another, firstly, and secondly, electrons actually influence each other further away than the radius of an atom. As do nuclear atomic forces. In fact, when you rest a solid object on another, they aren't actually "touching;" their negatively-charged electron clouds have pushed each other sufficiently out of the way that their positively-charged nuclei are repelling in equal amount to the force trying to push them against each other.

This does NOT create the same properties observed in time-dilation experiments, despite having the same net effect upon which your theory relies to prove that time is not dilating.

This is some pretty basic stuff. It's the same principle that makes it rather difficult to play paddle-ball while sitting in an accelerating drag racer...

It's been observed that clocks--even super accurate atomic clocks--for whatever reason run more slowly when they're in motion, and the faster they move, the slower they run. Science has concluded that, due to observations of this sort, then the closer to the speed of light an object moves, the slower time moves for that object.

But consider the following... Recall that electrons have mass and momentum, and are constantly changing direction. They don't move anywhere near the speed of light, so if the atom's nucleus is exceeding the speed of the electron, the atom will fall apart. Having said that, the amount of time the electrons "catch up" will increase the closer the nucleus is to the speed of said electrons. The orbit of the electrons will become highly elliptical, whipping around the nucleus in short order not unlike what comet ISON will do when it passes the sun later this year. This yeilds fewer revolutions over time which, it could be argued, will resemble a slowing of the passage of time if applied to a stationary object.

Likewise, for large bodies of matter, the gravity and/or charge of the body will exert more force on smaller objects, potentially pulling their electrons into a non-spherical orbit just like moving fast does. I'll gladly accept this explanation long before entertaining any notions of "speed of light = time travel"
1) Non-spherical movement is not the evidence of time dilation.

2) If atoms were moving faster than c, then the electrons would move faster than c along with them, so the "atoms would fall apart" theory is, no offense, kind-of silly. Acceleration would have to be great enough to have the inertial force rip the electrons away; speed is irrelevant in this case. To the electrons, a constant-speed atom moving at the same velocity as the electron is stationary, so no "falling apart" would happen.

3) Moving faster than light isn't "time travel" under relativity. It's just very strange anti-causal effects, in theory. We're not sure how these would really manifest, and there are those who assume that, because of the paradoxes introduced, it must be impossible. Me, I think that's putting the cart before the horse in your assumptions, but hey. The important bit is that "time travel" is not inherent to particles moving FTL.

In fact, one can mathematically treat an anti-particle moving forward in time, in many ways, as a particle moving backwards. (Quantum fluctuations in empty space being the prime example, wherein a spontaneous particle/anti-particle pair appear, then attract and annihilate. One way to conceive them is a single particle looping eternally through the same few moments of time.)


I didn't say time was a fancy coordinate system. Time is a unique concept; it's difficult to describe it without using the word "time" in the definition. What I said was like a coordinate system was spacetime, which we use as a reasoning aid to correlate mathematics with real-world physical behaviors.
Technically, "time" is a coordinate. It's just one through which we have no control over our shift. It's one of four we're able to accurately conceive, even if our conception of it is more limited than how we conceive manipulation of 3-space.

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2013, 04:39:27 PM »
Actually, you're way, way off here. "Wind resistance" wouldn't have anything to do with the effects you describe one way or another, firstly, and secondly, electrons actually influence each other further away than the radius of an atom.

Are you sure you understood my post correctly? You've just reiterated two of the things I indicated, and prepended them with "you're way, way off" (-:


2) If atoms were moving faster than c, then the electrons would move faster than c along with them, so the "atoms would fall apart" theory is, no offense, kind-of silly. Acceleration would have to be great enough to have the inertial force rip the electrons away; speed is irrelevant in this case. To the electrons, a constant-speed atom moving at the same velocity as the electron is stationary, so no "falling apart" would happen.

Don't forget that the electron will change its direction. It will eventually move in the opposite direction as the nucleus (relative to the nucleus), at which point it has to turn around. What happens if the nucleus is traveling faster than the speed of the electron? Will the electron move faster than the speed of electrons in order to keep up?

In some discrete, hypothetical point-in-time scenario perhaps an atom's nucleus and electrons can be moving at the same arbitrary speed, but as soon as those electrons start moving, their interactions with the nucleus dictate whether the atom continues to function. Speed is absolutely relevant: if the nucleus is running away from the electron in excess of the electron's maximum speed, the atom cannot under any circumstances hold itself together. Or, if you prefer, the nucleus will crash into electrons that happen to be in front of it.

Segev

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #34 on: May 30, 2013, 05:43:50 PM »
Are you sure you understood my post correctly? You've just reiterated two of the things I indicated, and prepended them with "you're way, way off" (-:
In that case, your points don't support your conclusion, as I go on to demonstrate why my (I thought counter-)points counter your conclusion.


Don't forget that the electron will change its direction. It will eventually move in the opposite direction as the nucleus (relative to the nucleus), at which point it has to turn around. What happens if the nucleus is traveling faster than the speed of the electron? Will the electron move faster than the speed of electrons in order to keep up?
When the moon orbits the Earth, does it going backwards cause the moon to be unable to keep up with the Earth on its way "back?"

Same thing happens with a constant-speed atom. It's the acceleration that would be of concern. If hyperlight travel is possible by acceleration beyond the c-barrier, we can accelerate the nucleus at a rate such that it never is sharp enough to lose its electrons. When the nucleus is moving at a constant greater-than-c velocity, the electrons will be moving at the same net velocity despite their orbit. Changing directions doesn't cause them to slow down; you, yourself, pointed out a lack of air resistance, so there's nothing to cause them to be "stripped off." They "catch back up" for the same reason the moon "catches back up" with the Earth.

Again: acceleration is the only thing that could generate relative inertial forces, which are what you're relying on to strip off electrons. They don't suddenly lose their net velocity just because their instantaneous velocity is altering according to orbital mechanics.

((Actually, you're using a relatively inaccurate model of an electron here, too, for this purpose. Electrons, being tiny, enjoy or suffer quantum effects when considered as part of their atom. They don't orbit at all like the moon, but instead have a constant probability distribution at specific energy levels of being at any given distance from the nucleus at any given point in time. So the entire notion of velocity breaking them off doesn't work, because they don't "change direction." They exist, theoretically, in a quantum superstate of probability, and it wouldn't be until they WERE separated from the atom that you could even localize them to more than a probability distribution between multiple energy levels.))

In some discrete, hypothetical point-in-time scenario perhaps an atom's nucleus and electrons can be moving at the same arbitrary speed, but as soon as those electrons start moving, their interactions with the nucleus dictate whether the atom continues to function. Speed is absolutely relevant: if the nucleus is running away from the electron in excess of the electron's maximum speed, the atom cannot under any circumstances hold itself together. Or, if you prefer, the nucleus will crash into electrons that happen to be in front of it.
What is this "maximum speed" of an electron you talk about? Why do electrons have a maximum speed, but this nucleus does not? As for the "crashing" into electrons ahead of it, see the point in parentheses about electron clouds and quantum probabilities.

Electrons will never "crash into" the nucleus because the weak nuclear force will shove them away far, far too hard as they get close. Now, that might qualify as "crashing," since contact is never genuine and is always a force pushing things away, but electrons are rigidly held in energy states. So, no, speed is not relevant, because the electrons are either moving at the same net velocity, or the atom has already broken apart, or the atom is accelerating.

If acceleration is such that it's breaking the atom apart, that's just a ton of energy you're pouring into it to achieve just that effect.

GuyPerfect

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2013, 06:43:56 PM »
What is this "maximum speed" of an electron you talk about?

It's what prevents electrons from moving infinitely fast. Unless you mean to argue that they do? There's no sub-atomic "air" for them to press against, but they do exhibit some form of "terminal velocity" or else every electron in existence would utilize infinite energy over infinitely small time frames.

On the other hand, if electrons DID have super powers like that, they could totally continue to orbit nuclei moving in excess of the speed of light. But they don't, which is the basis of my hypothesis.


They exist, theoretically, in a quantum superstate of probability, and it wouldn't be until they WERE separated from the atom that you could even localize them to more than a probability distribution between multiple energy levels.

Now we're getting into the silly things I mentioned. Surely you're not suggesting that randomness exists in the real world?

Segev

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2013, 06:57:04 PM »
It's what prevents electrons from moving infinitely fast. Unless you mean to argue that they do? There's no sub-atomic "air" for them to press against, but they do exhibit some form of "terminal velocity" or else every electron in existence would utilize infinite energy over infinitely small time frames.

On the other hand, if electrons DID have super powers like that, they could totally continue to orbit nuclei moving in excess of the speed of light. But they don't, which is the basis of my hypothesis.
Why do nuclei have the capacity, in your model, to exceed the speed of light/travel infinitely fast, but electrons do not?


Now we're getting into the silly things I mentioned. Surely you're not suggesting that randomness exists in the real world?
It exists to a sufficient degree that there are systems we lack sufficient information to predict before their outcome is determined. We have established that this level of uncertainty can lead to very strange effects that put lie to the idea that electrons are some sort of localized mass that has a definite position and velocity even if we don't know of it; quantum tunneling is a proven phenomenon. Therefore, the model is sufficiently accurate that it is not safe to claim that the electrons must be orbiting like mini-planets.

But even so, your theory is inconsistent, because you hypothesize a maximum speed for electrons, but not for nuclei.

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2013, 07:19:33 PM »
I'd like to see Guy's explanation for the result of the two-slit experiment when firing a single photon at a time and still detecting an interference pattern.

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2013, 08:05:44 PM »
Why do nuclei have the capacity, in your model, to exceed the speed of light/travel infinitely fast, but electrons do not?

I imagine any particle could go any speed given some magical force (provided IT won't fall apart for similar reasons). Will a proton disintegrate into its constituent quarks if it exceeds a certain speed? Maybe. I don't know. But I certainly never suggested that it wouldn't, since, not knowing one way or the other, that would be foolish.

In the context of one atom, the force that draws in the electrons has some measurable magnitude, meaning that there is a finite upper bound to how fast the nucleus can move before the electron can no longer orbit it. Will the nucleus itself fall apart before it reaches that speed? Who knows. But no matter how you slice it, if the atom gets moving fast enough, it will cease to hold itself together.

And time travel won't have occurred.

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2013, 11:46:30 PM »
You know if I had telekinetic powers I would use them to make people think their house was haunted but moving their stuff around without touching it.

Quote
I'd like to see Guy's explanation for the result of the two-slit experiment when firing a single photon at a time and still detecting an interference pattern.

Codewalker, correct me if I am wrong or thinking of something else I just would like to know more about it if I am thinking of the same thing.  But I recall reading something that I think might be that experiment.  Is that the one where they are planning on using the information from that experiment(and current ones still going ) to build certain tech to make faster transfers of information in things such as Swiss bank accounts, military intelligence, and whatever other things need to be nice and secure.  And then in the awesome world of Quantum Physics they think this type of information could also be used for all kinds of awesome things in which one example they listed was something that was similar to teleportation?

I know that is a weird question but when I came across that article I was really interested, but I wasn't able to find it again and I couldn't remember enough of it to look into it more.  So if any of that sounds familiar to the experiment you are speaking about I would like to know more about it.  If not, it still sounds cool and would like to know more about the one you are speaking of anyway:P This is a bit of a jumbled post but I love this kind of stuff and to hop in!
« Last Edit: May 31, 2013, 12:03:44 AM by Taceus Jiwede »

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #40 on: May 31, 2013, 01:39:53 PM »
This joke thread has turned out to be quite the interesting discussion.

I'm sure some of you have seen this already, but since we're on the topic of moving things without touching them... https://www.thalmic.com/myo/

Segev

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #41 on: May 31, 2013, 06:42:20 PM »
I imagine any particle could go any speed given some magical force (provided IT won't fall apart for similar reasons). Will a proton disintegrate into its constituent quarks if it exceeds a certain speed? Maybe. I don't know. But I certainly never suggested that it wouldn't, since, not knowing one way or the other, that would be foolish.
All well and good, but you're still missing something, as illustrated here:

In the context of one atom, the force that draws in the electrons has some measurable magnitude, meaning that there is a finite upper bound to how fast the nucleus can move before the electron can no longer orbit it.
With no wind resistance, speed is irrelevant. The nucleus could be moving at 10 billion light years per second, and, if the electrons are also moving with an equal net velocity in the same direction, to the nucleus and the electrons, the nucleus seems stationary and the electrons are just orbiting it (and that's still using the less-than-accurate model that treats electrons like planets orbiting a nucleus-star).

For there to be force exerted that might rip the nucleus away from the electrons, there must be acceleration. Force equals mass times acceleration. Nowhere in that equation is velocity nor speed mentioned, merely the first temporal derivative thereof.

Provided the acceleration is low enough, the electrons will experience force from the nucleus such that they are pulled into accelerating along with it, but never so much that the force pulling them along with the nucleus is less than the force of their own inertia. Let's assume that we go with an acceleration of 1 mm per year per year. This is ludicrously slow acceleration, but after enough millenia (assuming no relativistic effects creating a light-speed barrier), the atom accelerating at that rate will be going many times the speed of light. At what point, in your hypothetical model, would the electrons be ripped away?

Note that just typing on my keyboard subjects the atoms in my hands and the keys I depress to far greater accelerations than 1 mm/year/year.

Will the nucleus itself fall apart before it reaches that speed? Who knows. But no matter how you slice it, if the atom gets moving fast enough, it will cease to hold itself together.
The force required to rip apart a nucleus is, in fact, far greater than the force required to strip electrons from their "orbits."

And time travel won't have occurred.
Uh, okay. I'm not quite sure how this follows, as you seem not to have addressed any of the points regarding time travel that I raised. ^^;

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #42 on: May 31, 2013, 07:22:21 PM »
The nucleus could be moving at 10 billion light years per second, and, if the electrons are also moving with an equal net velocity in the same direction, to the nucleus and the electrons, the nucleus seems stationary and the electrons are just orbiting it (and that's still using the less-than-accurate model that treats electrons like planets orbiting a nucleus-star).

You can't make that argument. As I stated in a previous post (and have no intention of stating in a later post), the electrons won't be orbiting unless they're changing direction. Since electrons only move so fast while they orbit (we're talking a couple thousand kilometers per second; look it up), they won't be able to maintain an orbit at 10 billion light years per second.

Now, this isn't the first time I've explained this, which gives me an idea of how the conversation will proceed. I won't resort to calling names; I'll just nip it in the bud.

In other news, electrons are like miniaturized satellites. Unlike planets and moons, though, they'll tend to stay away from each other and aren't easily subject to collisions.

Segev

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #43 on: May 31, 2013, 07:45:06 PM »
You can't make that argument. As I stated in a previous post (and have no intention of stating in a later post), the electrons won't be orbiting unless they're changing direction. Since electrons only move so fast while they orbit (we're talking a couple thousand kilometers per second; look it up), they won't be able to maintain an orbit at 10 billion light years per second.

Now, this isn't the first time I've explained this, which gives me an idea of how the conversation will proceed. I won't resort to calling names; I'll just nip it in the bud.
Except that you're continuing to utterly miss the point.

That speed of their "orbit" is an instantaneous linear speed.

Let's take the moon. It orbits the earth at a speed sufficient to complete roughly one orbit per month. The moon is orbiting "backwards" relative to the motion of the earth around the sun for roughly half the time, agreed?

By your logic, the moon should already have been left behind, since it's constant linear speed would have it move further back relative to the earth with each "backwards" motion, and not catch up as it moves "forwards."


Now, in actuality, the moon's orbit has a constant instantenous linear speed only if you treat the Earth as being stationary. If the Earth is treated as orbiting the Sun, then the moon actually has a net velocity equal to the Earth's instantaneous linear velocity around the Sun. I say "net" velocity because it actually moves faster as it "catches up" with and "passes" the Earth going one direction, and moves slower as it "turns around to go the other way."

Likewise, electrons, in the "orbit" model, don't really care how fast the nucleus is moving relative to some outside reference frame. As long as there is no acceleration, the nucleus is effectively stationary as far as the electrons are concerned. They move at the instantaneous linear speed you listed about a "stationary" nucleus.

The nucleus, if it is not CHANGING velocity, will have electrons whose net velocity is equal to the nucleus's. Even when the electrons "turn around and go the other way," they make up for it by going equally faster when they come around to "catch up" and "pass" the nucleus on the other side.

The only way your model has electrons unable to "catch up" is if the nucleus is accelerating at a rate such that the force the nucleus exerts on the electrons is less than that needed to accelerate the electrons at the same rate. This is Newtonian physics, not relativistic.

Think about yourself in an airplane. When it's moving at a constant speed, you don't feel like you're moving, despite it going hundreds of miles per hour over the Earth's surface. Strip away the air resistance and still let it fly, and it will be able to move arbitrarily fast (in Newtonian mechanics, anyway), and you won't feel like you're moving as long as you are inside it. Only if it accelerates (or decelerates) so fast that you get squashed by the intertial forces slamming you against the rear (or front) wall will you suffer.

You, and the electrons around a nucleus, only feel force when there is acceleration involved. Constant speed - no matter what that speed is - has no effect on force at all.

Thus, if you accelerate a rocket at 9.8 m/s/s, it will go faster and faster and faster and you'll just feel like you're standing on the rear wall. In Newtonian physics, there is no upper limit to that speed. You'll never be "crushed through" the floor because you'll never experience more force than your earth-weight. It's only if the rocket starts increasing its velocity at a faster rate - that is, exerts more acceleration than g by a significant amount - that you'll feel first heavier, then get crushed by the accelerating floor beneath your feet. Or fall through said floor as your "weight" becomes too great for it to support. But this is only a problem when acceleration is involved, not speed.

In other news, electrons are like miniaturized satellites. Unlike planets and moons, though, they'll tend to stay away from each other and aren't easily subject to collisions.
You can assert this all you like, but experimental evidence disagrees with you.

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2013, 09:17:23 PM »
Derailing from telekinesis, but just to point one thing before going back to business.

In other news, electrons are like miniaturized satellites. Unlike planets and moons, though, they'll tend to stay away from each other and aren't easily subject to collisions.
That was like that in physics textbooks of 1960, and nowadays. In other more recent news, when orbiting a nucleus, electrons are actually more akin to a "field" with mass than a real particle. They can actually jump trough the nucleus or any other sufficiently small particles (the quantum jump). I think that for an electron to be a particle and stay afloat orbiting the nucleus instead of collapsing on it, it must be going to more than relativistic speed. Which is impossible.

Actually, that makes me remember dithering (or what's its name). If we are on a quantized grid, one way to simulate continuousness is vibrating between two states, passing more of the time at the position you want to "appear" nearer to than the other you are vibrating on (if vibrating between too). Like how you drive a motor with a PWM.

Back on the subject.

It's a question of how accurate your model of the force is, and how well you can detect that it works according to that model, and how complete that model is.

We have a fairly complete model of EM in the modern era. We fully understand how radio waves are controlling that R/C car. The only evidence the ancient Romans have that some force is in operation is that the car moves according to commands given by the remote.
You have a very wrong definition of "detect". It is "to discover the existence of". Now, I'm a scientist (I mean, I am, IRL. Though only going through my Ph. D.). To discover that you can repeatedly and conciously move something (whatever), with no application of the interactions I know of, that is what I'd call "detect a mysterious force". How do you think that we detected "dark matter" ? We didn't harness is, or modelise it. First, we notice the expansion of the universe, using known variables, didn't account for the actual, observed expansion of the universe. There was a new thing in there, we called it "Dark Matter" because it was accountable for new, unobserved until now, mass, in the previous equation. The previous thing was modelised and explain, but not it. And afterward ? The expansion speed was accelerating again! This time, you should remove mass to explain it. So we called it "Dark Energy". This is a new force. It was "detected" by hubble and scientists around the globe.

Did Newton "detect" gravity ? No, he merely gave it a name. Any baby eventually detects it, after he detected his own body, inertia, and muscles. Did Thomas Edison (was that him?) first detect electricity ? Neither, we discovered a battery in Egypt far more ancient than his time.

The very definition of Force, is transfer of energy (or "work"). Gravity transforms potential gravity energy into kinetic energy. Potential gravity is expressed via a property of particles called "mass", and distance. Electrical Force transforms electrical potential into kinetic energy. Electrical potential is expressed via a property of particles called "charge", and distance too. Magnetic force works with magnetic moments I don't want to explain. Electrical and Magnetic, well, you know it already I think.

No, if I can put you on a very precise scale, see you lose weight faster when you make that telekinesiable thing move with your mysterious power, when it is actually inside a faraday cage, I can say you are expanding your energy and giving it somehow to the telekinesied thing. Though there is still a possibility that you are using one of the other interactions, I don't know how to proof the telekinesiable thing from them, but I think there is a way to verify it violates all known theory about them, therefore, prooving it's not one of them either.

Since I'm not the most brilliant scientist, I just prooved that "we can not detect the mysterious force" and "somebody can move something with the mysterious force" are incompatible. Even a child is going to admit it (even if it calls it "magic !" like what powers phones, houses, and television. He will differentiate it from that because you do it, not the phone.)
Yeeessss....

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #45 on: May 31, 2013, 09:23:31 PM »
You can't make that argument. As I stated in a previous post (and have no intention of stating in a later post), the electrons won't be orbiting unless they're changing direction. Since electrons only move so fast while they orbit (we're talking a couple thousand kilometers per second; look it up), they won't be able to maintain an orbit at 10 billion light years per second.

The fact that they're changing direction relative to the nucleus has no relevance to how fast the nucleus is moving. Really, the whole reference frame is moving, but within it, things appear stationary and only relative motion matters. Strong and weak nuclear forces are what keep an atom together, similar but not exactly like how gravity keeps a planetary system together. In the simpler Newtonian model (which applies reasonably well to large bodies like planets), if the Earth were to accelerate, its gravity would impart some of that acceleration on anything nearby like the Moon, damping the effects of its own acceleration slightly. Action and reaction.

This is basic stuff, and is what keeps the planets and moons from flying away from each other, even though the moon is rotating around the earth which is rotating around the sun which is rotating around the galactic core which is moving through space in some yet-to-be-fully-quantified fashion. And that's rotational motion, which can cause tidal effects, unlike linear motion which truly wouldn't affect orbits in any way at all.

In other news, electrons are like miniaturized satellites. Unlike planets and moons, though, they'll tend to stay away from each other and aren't easily subject to collisions.
You can assert this all you like, but experimental evidence disagrees with you.

This. And if you want to disagree with it, you can start by providing an alternate explanation of how a single electron, when given a 50/50 split of paths to take, can generate patterns in its ending distribution that clearly show that its wavelike properties is making it somehow interfere with itself -- as if it had taken both paths simultaneously.

This is a simple experiment that has been repeated many, many times.

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #46 on: May 31, 2013, 11:02:24 PM »
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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #47 on: June 02, 2013, 03:02:10 AM »
You have a very wrong definition of "detect". It is "to discover the existence of". Now, I'm a scientist (I mean, I am, IRL. Though only going through my Ph. D.).
I'm not trying to get into a degree-waving competition, but since we're establishing bona fides... I am also a scientist in real life. I have an M.S. in physics and a Ph.D. in computer engineering. ^^;

To discover that you can repeatedly and conciously move something (whatever), with no application of the interactions I know of, that is what I'd call "detect a mysterious force". How do you think that we detected "dark matter" ? We didn't harness is, or modelise it. First, we notice the expansion of the universe, using known variables, didn't account for the actual, observed expansion of the universe. There was a new thing in there, we called it "Dark Matter" because it was accountable for new, unobserved until now, mass, in the previous equation. The previous thing was modelised and explain, but not it. And afterward ? The expansion speed was accelerating again! This time, you should remove mass to explain it. So we called it "Dark Energy". This is a new force. It was "detected" by hubble and scientists around the globe.

Did Newton "detect" gravity ? No, he merely gave it a name. Any baby eventually detects it, after he detected his own body, inertia, and muscles. Did Thomas Edison (was that him?) first detect electricity ? Neither, we discovered a battery in Egypt far more ancient than his time.

The very definition of Force, is transfer of energy (or "work"). Gravity transforms potential gravity energy into kinetic energy. Potential gravity is expressed via a property of particles called "mass", and distance. Electrical Force transforms electrical potential into kinetic energy. Electrical potential is expressed via a property of particles called "charge", and distance too. Magnetic force works with magnetic moments I don't want to explain. Electrical and Magnetic, well, you know it already I think.

No, if I can put you on a very precise scale, see you lose weight faster when you make that telekinesiable thing move with your mysterious power, when it is actually inside a faraday cage, I can say you are expanding your energy and giving it somehow to the telekinesied thing. Though there is still a possibility that you are using one of the other interactions, I don't know how to proof the telekinesiable thing from them, but I think there is a way to verify it violates all known theory about them, therefore, prooving it's not one of them either.

Since I'm not the most brilliant scientist, I just prooved that "we can not detect the mysterious force" and "somebody can move something with the mysterious force" are incompatible. Even a child is going to admit it (even if it calls it "magic !" like what powers phones, houses, and television. He will differentiate it from that because you do it, not the phone.)
All of what you say is "true," using the definitions you're applying, but are beside the point.

The point of the two-force suggestion is to refute a proof-by-contradiction that says that it is impossible for TK to exist because the human body cannot produce any forces in sufficient quantity for it to happen. That proof explains that any force that the human body could generate that we have not the tools to detect would be too short range or too weak to do it.

Obviously, if we had a proven telekinetic, we could "detect" that there is something that causes the telekinesis.

Like the R/C car, we would be mistaken if we said, "There is a mysterious force that causes the car to move when you manipulate the magic box that controls it." That is, we would be if my silly hypothesis were actually correct.

The ancient Romans, of course, would be mistaken to say, "We have detected a mysterious force," as well. They've detected that there is some influence of the "magic box" on the "magic chariot." There are, in fact, multiple forces involved. It's not just radio waves, but batteries, voltage drops, and motors.

So my point is, they lack the means of figuring out what is going on, because the forces they can identify and study through more than this one mechanism cannot explain the behavior. They cannot detect the multiple separate forces; they can only detect the result.

You bring up dark matter; initially, we only detected deviation from our predicted models. Our models were good enough that our immediate prediction - there must be some mass out there we weren't "seeing" - is probably right. We think we've detected further evidence that it's there. But - and I could be behind the times, here, but I think - we have yet to actually confirm "dark matter" is real. For all we know, our model is off and there's some other cause.

Galileo and others didn't "detect" that the Earth orbited the Sun; they noticed that planets didn't act right if they just orbited the Earth. They then started revising models.

Now, you could argue that I have, if I present a person with Telekinesis, used knowledge of our other detection limitations and my hypothetical two-forces model to "detect" those forces. You'd be wrong; I've hypothesized them. I'd need some means of isolating behaviors that would be further explained by these forces, and preferably would not require the two forces to be working together for this detection, as I would need to isolate them for detection.

"Detecting" in the sense that you know "sometihng" has to be happening is pedantic. The point is, the ancient Romans cannot detect radio waves. They can only say, "something causes this car to move."

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #48 on: June 02, 2013, 08:46:27 PM »
Ukaserex, a few years from now, you'll look back on this and remember it as the time when a simple joke led to the Titan Network developing a viable theory for wormhole technology, enabling NASA to conduct manned exploration of Alpha Centuari.  8)

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #49 on: June 03, 2013, 01:27:12 PM »
Ukaserex, a few years from now, you'll look back on this and remember it as the time when a simple joke led to the Titan Network developing a viable theory for wormhole technology, enabling NASA to conduct manned exploration of Alpha Centuari.  8)
You're not cleared for that knowledge, citizen.  8)

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #50 on: June 04, 2013, 01:07:28 AM »
I am probably not cleared to read this forum thread either, but i had fun doing so!   ;D
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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #51 on: June 04, 2013, 08:06:46 AM »
Guys I don't think Cthulhu will want us talking about this kind of stuff.........

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #52 on: June 04, 2013, 12:42:22 PM »
Just wait until you find out that the mediating particle of the communication-force used in the 2-force TK model naturally assumes a probability field in the shape of the sigil that marks the King in Yellow.

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #53 on: June 04, 2013, 11:28:36 PM »
Guys I don't think Cthulhu will want us talking about this kind of stuff.........

Gozer just called on my Ouija board. He/She/It/Whatever said it's Cthulhu is fine with it, as long as we don't try anything with marshmallows or spaghetti monsters.

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #54 on: June 05, 2013, 01:20:14 PM »
Well, that's going to disappoint the pastafarians.

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #55 on: June 05, 2013, 05:50:29 PM »
Well, that's going to disappoint the pastafarians.

Cthulhu has reasons. Something to do with tentacle trademark infringement?

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #56 on: June 07, 2013, 09:19:22 PM »
I think I did read a morcel of this thread while at work. So, technically, this reflexion is now the property of the French National Scientific Research Center.


(Joking. Not technically CNRS... Not yet. Just doing my Ph.D. at one of their labs)

So, i'd like to say, if you can proove the telekinesis force, I'm all for it. It's just that I wouldn't like it to be due to an externally powered gimmicky that's peeking at signals in my brain or body. Actually, you can now detect movements with wifi signals.

Problem is, you're going to prohibit "harlem shake" in your house, in case it would turn the microwave on involuntarily.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2013, 09:38:13 PM by Mister Bison »
Yeeessss....