Author Topic: telekinesis  (Read 17227 times)

GuyPerfect

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2013, 05:05:32 PM »
The reason the argument persisted is because he kept insisting that gravity isn't a force, but rather a curve in spacetime? (-:

Quantum mechanics makes scientists say some pretty silly stuff. Or maybe not. Probably both, at least until someone observes them saying it.

Segev

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2013, 05:12:01 PM »
I do tend to be of the school of thought that it is a mistake to group gravity with the electromagnetic, weak, and strong forces. Each of those demonstrate two properties: a known mediation particle, and the ability to attract AND repel. Gravity is hypothesized to have the former, and might have the latter if the former exists. However, I think it more likely gravity really IS just a result of curving space-time.

Until we prove the existence of definite lack of a mediation particle - a "graviton" - however, we won't be able to definitively settle that debate.

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2013, 06:27:31 PM »
On the topic of undetectable forces (at least by tech/chemical means) I wouldn't put things like this outside the realm of possibility. We probably haven't even scratched the surface of how the body works.

I can't say one way or the other about telekinesis on the scientific front, but there are other things that are equally freaky and interesting that show promise, but haven't been given enough analysis.

Organ donor memory transfer: There are numerous examples of this, but the big one is when a person received a heart transplant from a murder victim. Following the procedure, the recipient began having nightmares about death and violence, with enough clarity that it led to the arrest of the victim's murderer.

Messages sent through time: Subjects were instructed to study materials in preparation for a test. After they took the test, half of the subjects were instructed to study the materials again. Looking back at the test scores, statistics showed that the subjects who studied both before and after the test, scored higher than those who only studied before.

Science has even been forced to admit that some things that are true, may not produce any evidence that will ever testable or detectable. String theory, for instance.

Segev

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2013, 06:46:23 PM »
No offense, but I find string theory to be a crock. It is not self-consistent (which is the primary thing people keep trying to study it to fix), and it's theorized as a means of explaining how gravity is unified to the other known fundamental forces. Which, as I stated, I think is a mistaken approach. Gravity is merely inertia in warped space-time.

I will admit that my own theories result in some backwards predictions of how relativity actually works, however, so I will not claim that I have some brilliant solution to modern physics problems that are as-yet unsolved. If I did, I assure you, I'd be attempting to publish. ;)

Speaking as a scientist, I bring up the "what if" of a super-weak unknown and as-yet undetectable-by-our-technology force combined with a super-short-range unknown and similarly undetectable force to create TK-like effects not because I am convinced that we have compelling evidence that TK exists, but because the theoretical explanation for why it's supposedly impossible is demonstrably flawed by this suggestion. Through no violation of known physical laws and our accumulated body of research, this would still permit not just TK, but telepathy (and, by extension, empathy). If there exists a human organ that can generate this super-weak force that gets picked up by particles on the receiving end, thoughts could be encoded and transmitted and then later detected, as well.


As an alternate TK hypothesis, it could be a 4th dimensional trick. To illustrate, picture a piece of paper with a 2D "person" who lives in that plane. Picture a sphere embedded halfway into that paper. Now picture something that looks like that 2D person in cross-section sitting there, talking to the 2D person about how he's telekinetic. This second "something" is a 3D entity with arms that reach up and down out of the page. He uses these to grasp the sphere on the top and bottom, and move it around.

To the 2D person, it looks like the circle is moving around without anything touching it. The "something" doing the moving is moving it, seemingly without touching it, as far as the 2D person can see.

A set of "arms" extending into a 4th dimension and reaching out to manipulate an object's components that lie in other coordinates of that dimension than our own would allow somebody who could control said arms to move objects, again seemingly at a distance. It would seem like TK.

We would have no modern technological means of detecting where the force generation is coming from, because we can't point our instruments in this 4th dimensional direction to "see" the arms that extend out of our space through the hyperspace.


And if you're having trouble picturing that, don't feel bad. I can't picture it, either, properly. I have a lot of 3D cross-sections in my head and projections where I squash a dimension to try to get a feel for it, and it STILL doesn't really picture right. Picturing more than 3D is impossible for me; it might be impossible for any human (I'm not sure).

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2013, 07:06:24 PM »
And if you're having trouble picturing that, don't feel bad. I can't picture it, either, properly. I have a lot of 3D cross-sections in my head and projections where I squash a dimension to try to get a feel for it, and it STILL doesn't really picture right. Picturing more than 3D is impossible for me; it might be impossible for any human (I'm not sure).

There are apps out there that were created to try teaching kids to navigate a hypercube (I guess because they wanted to know if 4D space was even theoretically manageable by our brains). It needs stereo glasses to use it properly though, so I never played with it.

Segev

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2013, 07:13:52 PM »
There ARE ways we can effectively work with hyperdimensionality, but it effectively involves discretizing space.

Consider, instead of a line, an array. Each cell is one unit along it. Stack multiple arrays to get a 2D matrix. Stack 2D matrices to get a 3D matrix. A 4D matrix would just be a collection of 3D matrices. Jumping from one to the next can be done conceptually, even if we can't properly picture the hypercube shape.

GuyPerfect

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2013, 07:44:34 PM »
However, I think it more likely gravity really IS just a result of curving space-time.

Forward: I'm not trying to convert anyone. I'm just calling it like I see it.

My main objection to the assertion is that, by definition, spacetime was invented to express real-world models and calculations where time was one of the components. It effectively boils down to a fancy coordinate system. And it was designed, by humans, to express the behavior of the real world.

Consider, if you will, the trajectory of an object as it moves over time:



In this recklessly oversimplified context, the bird's elevation could be seen as the Y axis in that image and time the X axis. The bird's elevation changes over time: first it increases, then it decreases.

In this 2-dimensional analog to spacetime, one might say that the bird's elevation changes due to the curve in its trajectory. But think about that for a second: can you really use the trajectory of an object--before the object's motion actually occurs--as the basis of describing the physical processes that will take place? Of course you can't; that's circular reasoning. "The bird will fall because it will fall."

Rather, the trajectory, plotted over time by the white dotted line, is an observation of the bird's movement. The graph is only there as a convenience for us humans so we can analyze, and in some cases calculate in advance, the path of the bird's movement. It is not, however, the definition of why the bird moves. In the same sense, it's inappropriate to define the game's gravity as "a curve in the dotted line", because that curve comes about as a result of the gravity mechanic.

To suggest that gravity is defined as curvature in spacetime seems preposterous because spacetime in and of itself was invented as a means of expressing real-world behaviors. For as long as my bathroom scale spins around uncontrollably when I step on it, I'll hold fast to the notion of gravity being a force.

Jumping from one to the next can be done conceptually, even if we can't properly picture the hypercube shape.

I did that once while working on a successor to Titan Sentinel. I was processing each language for each gender of each title for each Badge.

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2013, 07:53:57 PM »
Consider, instead of a line, an array. Each cell is one unit along it. Stack multiple arrays to get a 2D matrix. Stack 2D matrices to get a 3D matrix. A 4D matrix would just be a collection of 3D matrices. Jumping from one to the next can be done conceptually, even if we can't properly picture the hypercube shape.

That's not as 'realistic' as what life would probably be like if we could travel in 4D though. 3D movement is all analog, so it's quirky at best to make the 4th dimensional movement be digital.

Segev

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2013, 10:12:09 PM »
My main objection to the assertion is that, by definition, spacetime was invented to express real-world models and calculations where time was one of the components. It effectively boils down to a fancy coordinate system. And it was designed, by humans, to express the behavior of the real world.

(...)

To suggest that gravity is defined as curvature in spacetime seems preposterous because spacetime in and of itself was invented as a means of expressing real-world behaviors. For as long as my bathroom scale spins around uncontrollably when I step on it, I'll hold fast to the notion of gravity being a force.
Yes and no. "Spacetime" is a word that was defined to identify a property that does exist; it isn't a human-thought-construct.

I'm not saying gravity is "defined" as anything; I'm saying that I think the force we observe as "gravity" is actually a lorentz transformation of 4D inertia into our 3D reference frame. Just as the centrifugal force, when you calculate a reference frame such that the spinning cylinder is stationary and the rest of the universe is spinning about it, appears all of a sudden as a "real" force, but is really just the Lorentz transformation of inertia in the Newtonian reference frame surrounding it.

When I comment on the non-existence of gravity as a "fundamental force," I mean it is not something that I believe will be observed to exist as a unifiable force with the other three (which have been demonstrated, under certain conditions, to be itnerchangeable and thus are symmetry-breaks of one unified force). It has no known/discovered mediating particle (unlike EM, which is mediated by photons, or the Strong Force, which is mediated by gluons, or the Weak force, which...shoot, I'm drawing a blank, but it also has a known mediating particle). It is never repulsive.

Therefore, I think it is probably just inertia, observed in a non-Newtonian 3D reference frame when the inertia is being applied in a 4D frame we cannot or have not calculated. (I have not attempted math to prove this, so take it with as large a grain of salt as you like.)

Mister Bison

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2013, 10:31:02 PM »
"We can't detect it" has an implied "with our current known technology."

If the only way to detect it is to witness somebody utilizing telekinesis, then we have little way of knowing if it's due to a "control force" or due to some other mechanism we REALLY don't understand.

One can theorize the existence of something which one has, as of yet, no way to detect. There is no paradox - regardless of what atheists may say - in hypothesizing the existence of God and then admitting that you have no hard undeniable proof of His existence. Atheists may question the validity of that belief, but they can't prove it wrong through pure logic vis a vis disproof-by-paradox.

...ah, a better example, going back to the R/C car: drop it back in ancient Rome and hand the control to a Roman child. They can clearly see the car's response to the use of the remote control. They have no means of detecting the RF signal being used, except to witness that the car responds to it. That does not make the RF signal paradoxical. It is an undetectable force, to them.
OK, so just so you know, I took "We can't detect it" as "We sensed no change, or at least none accountable to a mysterious force instead of a force already known."

At your rate, only theoritizing things, even if there is no reproductible evidence of this thing, I can supputate there is a force of humor in this universe that force any experiment to fail miserably at the most important time... There is even some proof of this force, enough for earthlings to name it. "Murphy's Law".

And to rebound on your example, what's preventing the roman from creating a secret passage based on gears (known at the time from windmills) and putting the R/C car to propel (somewhat slowly) said gears to, say, lift a door. They successfully harnessed the mysterious force causing remote action to influence action on the car. Is that not their technology now ?

Forward: I'm not trying to convert anyone. I'm just calling it like I see it.

My main objection to the assertion is that, by definition, spacetime was invented to express real-world models and calculations where time was one of the components. It effectively boils down to a fancy coordinate system. And it was designed, by humans, to express the behavior of the real world.

Consider, if you will, the trajectory of an object as it moves over time:



In this recklessly oversimplified context, the bird's elevation could be seen as the Y axis in that image and time the X axis. The bird's elevation changes over time: first it increases, then it decreases.

In this 2-dimensional analog to spacetime, one might say that the bird's elevation changes due to the curve in its trajectory. But think about that for a second: can you really use the trajectory of an object--before the object's motion actually occurs--as the basis of describing the physical processes that will take place? Of course you can't; that's circular reasoning. "The bird will fall because it will fall."

Rather, the trajectory, plotted over time by the white dotted line, is an observation of the bird's movement. The graph is only there as a convenience for us humans so we can analyze, and in some cases calculate in advance, the path of the bird's movement. It is not, however, the definition of why the bird moves. In the same sense, it's inappropriate to define the game's gravity as "a curve in the dotted line", because that curve comes about as a result of the gravity mechanic.

To suggest that gravity is defined as curvature in spacetime seems preposterous because spacetime in and of itself was invented as a means of expressing real-world behaviors. For as long as my bathroom scale spins around uncontrollably when I step on it, I'll hold fast to the notion of gravity being a force.
If gravity was just a Force, it wouldn't have the relativity effects it has. (slower passing of time near very high mass). If time was just a fancy coordinate system, we would be able to move along time-axis as we like, and we can't, or don't. Or don't remember. Nor wouldn't we shrink because of speed (Einstein's explanation of speed of light discrepancies between two frames of reference).

That's not as 'realistic' as what life would probably be like if we could travel in 4D though. 3D movement is all analog, so it's quirky at best to make the 4th dimensional movement be digital.
I think that there is some evidence now that space may, in fact, just be not analog at all, but on a quantic grid. A very, very fine grid, but a grid nonetheless. I stumbled upon that when looking around quantic theory.
Yeeessss....

Segev

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #30 on: May 30, 2013, 01:17:16 PM »
OK, so just so you know, I took "We can't detect it" as "We sensed no change, or at least none accountable to a mysterious force instead of a force already known."
It's a question of how accurate your model of the force is, and how well you can detect that it works according to that model, and how complete that model is.

We have a fairly complete model of EM in the modern era. We fully understand how radio waves are controlling that R/C car. The only evidence the ancient Romans have that some force is in operation is that the car moves according to commands given by the remote.

At your rate, only theoritizing things, even if there is no reproductible evidence of this thing, I can supputate there is a force of humor in this universe that force any experiment to fail miserably at the most important time... There is even some proof of this force, enough for earthlings to name it. "Murphy's Law".
You can. I would actually - diverging a little here, sorry - qualify that as a legitimate moral force, because the actual result of "If anything can go wrong, it will" is not a statement of probability being perverse, but rather that anything you leave to chance is going to be one more possible failure point, and that potential failure points add up quickly. So the law is better described as, "Minimize the possible points of failure by making sure as many things are in a known-good state as possible before enacting any plan." Why is this a "moral" law? Because it's a law of prescribed behavior which, when disobeyed, has real consequences, but which is not inevitably going to be disastrous every time it's ignored. Phrased another way, it's a variant on, "If a job is worth doing, it's worth doing well."

And to rebound on your example, what's preventing the roman from creating a secret passage based on gears (known at the time from windmills) and putting the R/C car to propel (somewhat slowly) said gears to, say, lift a door. They successfully harnessed the mysterious force causing remote action to influence action on the car. Is that not their technology now ?
They have detected kinetic motion from the car, so as far as they know, there is a mysterious something causing the car to respond to the manipulation of the remote control. This gives them no further information about the nature of this force than they had prior (though it does help them figure out how strong the maximum kinetic energy of the car under its own power is).

They may even incorrectly conclude that this mysterious force is pushing the car directly, or at least directly pushing the car's wheels. They lack the technology to determine that there are, in fact, at least two forces at work: one communicative, and one mechanical. Even dissecting the car and determining that there is a motor that is pushed by "canned lightning" or the like would only give them a clear picture that, somehow, the car was compelled to channel its "canned lightning" into pushing its wheels to move itself. It would take a great deal of study and advancing technology to realize that "canned lightning" is a manifestation of the same force that creates the invisible phenomenon we know as "radio waves."

COULD they eventually figure it out, given the demonstration of the existence of this (to them) "mysterious force?" Sure; such things do spark leaps in technological advancement. But it would take R&D.

If we actually could find equally repeatable demonstrations of human telekinesis, we could begin to study it and trying to figure out how it worked, because we'd HAVE the example of it in action and could start with what we can measure to try to find where exactly the "mysterious force" is taking over from known forces and properties. That would help us develop hypothetical models, at which point we could start trying to design experiments to precisely detect something that obeys that model.

We say we "know" or "understand" something in science when we have a model that allows us to make reliable predictions with accuracy we consider sufficient. There is some judgment call there as to what is "sufficient," but we are capable of coming to reasonable consensus as to what is sufficient, in general. Generally, it's the point at which we're comfortable making predictions based on it. (This is why we still use Newtonian physics, despite knowing it has inaccuracies; on a human scale, it's accurate enough that we can make very useful predictions.)


I think that there is some evidence now that space may, in fact, just be not analog at all, but on a quantic grid. A very, very fine grid, but a grid nonetheless. I stumbled upon that when looking around quantic theory.
The interesting bit, to me, about this theory, is that it means there's a mechanism for defining precise location, and, moreover, for moving from one discrete location to another. If this is true, one is given to wonder what that mechanism for transport is, and how it can be used to, perhaps, "skip" one or more of these "quantic grid squares."

Thinking on this, it also opens the question as to the SHAPE of these grid spaces. What is the shape that tessellates the universe?

GuyPerfect

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2013, 03:27:14 PM »
If gravity was just a Force, it wouldn't have the relativity effects it has. (slower passing of time near very high mass).

I highly suspect that the observed "passage of time" relative to an object has a much simpler explanation than what the scientific community seems to have come up with. I think it has more to do with the movement of electrons than anything actually pertinent to time.

Electrons don't experience wind resistance, since they're smaller than wind. They're just flying around in the space between atomic nuclei, constantly changing direction (or, if they don't, they fly off and cause problems for other atoms). Since electrons have mass and momentum, whenever the nucleus they're orbiting begins to move, their orbit deforms and is no longer perfectly spherical. It has a longer orbit "behind" the nucleus, where it has to "catch up" in order to complete a revolution. Once it reaches the nucleus and swings around the other side, it will be moving in the opposite direction, meaning the relative velocities of nucleus to electron will be greater than if the nucleus was stationary.

This is some pretty basic stuff. It's the same principle that makes it rather difficult to play paddle-ball while sitting in an accelerating drag racer...

It's been observed that clocks--even super accurate atomic clocks--for whatever reason run more slowly when they're in motion, and the faster they move, the slower they run. Science has concluded that, due to observations of this sort, then the closer to the speed of light an object moves, the slower time moves for that object.

But consider the following... Recall that electrons have mass and momentum, and are constantly changing direction. They don't move anywhere near the speed of light, so if the atom's nucleus is exceeding the speed of the electron, the atom will fall apart. Having said that, the amount of time the electrons "catch up" will increase the closer the nucleus is to the speed of said electrons. The orbit of the electrons will become highly elliptical, whipping around the nucleus in short order not unlike what comet ISON will do when it passes the sun later this year. This yeilds fewer revolutions over time which, it could be argued, will resemble a slowing of the passage of time if applied to a stationary object.

Likewise, for large bodies of matter, the gravity and/or charge of the body will exert more force on smaller objects, potentially pulling their electrons into a non-spherical orbit just like moving fast does. I'll gladly accept this explanation long before entertaining any notions of "speed of light = time travel"


If time was just a fancy coordinate system [...]

I didn't say time was a fancy coordinate system. Time is a unique concept; it's difficult to describe it without using the word "time" in the definition. What I said was like a coordinate system was spacetime, which we use as a reasoning aid to correlate mathematics with real-world physical behaviors.


I think that there is some evidence now that space may, in fact, just be not analog at all, but on a quantic grid. A very, very fine grid, but a grid nonetheless. I stumbled upon that when looking around quantic theory.

Mum. (It's the word!)

Segev

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #32 on: May 30, 2013, 03:42:53 PM »
I highly suspect that the observed "passage of time" relative to an object has a much simpler explanation than what the scientific community seems to have come up with. I think it has more to do with the movement of electrons than anything actually pertinent to time.

Electrons don't experience wind resistance, since they're smaller than wind. They're just flying around in the space between atomic nuclei, constantly changing direction (or, if they don't, they fly off and cause problems for other atoms). Since electrons have mass and momentum, whenever the nucleus they're orbiting begins to move, their orbit deforms and is no longer perfectly spherical. It has a longer orbit "behind" the nucleus, where it has to "catch up" in order to complete a revolution. Once it reaches the nucleus and swings around the other side, it will be moving in the opposite direction, meaning the relative velocities of nucleus to electron will be greater than if the nucleus was stationary.
Actually, you're way, way off here. "Wind resistance" wouldn't have anything to do with the effects you describe one way or another, firstly, and secondly, electrons actually influence each other further away than the radius of an atom. As do nuclear atomic forces. In fact, when you rest a solid object on another, they aren't actually "touching;" their negatively-charged electron clouds have pushed each other sufficiently out of the way that their positively-charged nuclei are repelling in equal amount to the force trying to push them against each other.

This does NOT create the same properties observed in time-dilation experiments, despite having the same net effect upon which your theory relies to prove that time is not dilating.

This is some pretty basic stuff. It's the same principle that makes it rather difficult to play paddle-ball while sitting in an accelerating drag racer...

It's been observed that clocks--even super accurate atomic clocks--for whatever reason run more slowly when they're in motion, and the faster they move, the slower they run. Science has concluded that, due to observations of this sort, then the closer to the speed of light an object moves, the slower time moves for that object.

But consider the following... Recall that electrons have mass and momentum, and are constantly changing direction. They don't move anywhere near the speed of light, so if the atom's nucleus is exceeding the speed of the electron, the atom will fall apart. Having said that, the amount of time the electrons "catch up" will increase the closer the nucleus is to the speed of said electrons. The orbit of the electrons will become highly elliptical, whipping around the nucleus in short order not unlike what comet ISON will do when it passes the sun later this year. This yeilds fewer revolutions over time which, it could be argued, will resemble a slowing of the passage of time if applied to a stationary object.

Likewise, for large bodies of matter, the gravity and/or charge of the body will exert more force on smaller objects, potentially pulling their electrons into a non-spherical orbit just like moving fast does. I'll gladly accept this explanation long before entertaining any notions of "speed of light = time travel"
1) Non-spherical movement is not the evidence of time dilation.

2) If atoms were moving faster than c, then the electrons would move faster than c along with them, so the "atoms would fall apart" theory is, no offense, kind-of silly. Acceleration would have to be great enough to have the inertial force rip the electrons away; speed is irrelevant in this case. To the electrons, a constant-speed atom moving at the same velocity as the electron is stationary, so no "falling apart" would happen.

3) Moving faster than light isn't "time travel" under relativity. It's just very strange anti-causal effects, in theory. We're not sure how these would really manifest, and there are those who assume that, because of the paradoxes introduced, it must be impossible. Me, I think that's putting the cart before the horse in your assumptions, but hey. The important bit is that "time travel" is not inherent to particles moving FTL.

In fact, one can mathematically treat an anti-particle moving forward in time, in many ways, as a particle moving backwards. (Quantum fluctuations in empty space being the prime example, wherein a spontaneous particle/anti-particle pair appear, then attract and annihilate. One way to conceive them is a single particle looping eternally through the same few moments of time.)


I didn't say time was a fancy coordinate system. Time is a unique concept; it's difficult to describe it without using the word "time" in the definition. What I said was like a coordinate system was spacetime, which we use as a reasoning aid to correlate mathematics with real-world physical behaviors.
Technically, "time" is a coordinate. It's just one through which we have no control over our shift. It's one of four we're able to accurately conceive, even if our conception of it is more limited than how we conceive manipulation of 3-space.

GuyPerfect

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2013, 04:39:27 PM »
Actually, you're way, way off here. "Wind resistance" wouldn't have anything to do with the effects you describe one way or another, firstly, and secondly, electrons actually influence each other further away than the radius of an atom.

Are you sure you understood my post correctly? You've just reiterated two of the things I indicated, and prepended them with "you're way, way off" (-:


2) If atoms were moving faster than c, then the electrons would move faster than c along with them, so the "atoms would fall apart" theory is, no offense, kind-of silly. Acceleration would have to be great enough to have the inertial force rip the electrons away; speed is irrelevant in this case. To the electrons, a constant-speed atom moving at the same velocity as the electron is stationary, so no "falling apart" would happen.

Don't forget that the electron will change its direction. It will eventually move in the opposite direction as the nucleus (relative to the nucleus), at which point it has to turn around. What happens if the nucleus is traveling faster than the speed of the electron? Will the electron move faster than the speed of electrons in order to keep up?

In some discrete, hypothetical point-in-time scenario perhaps an atom's nucleus and electrons can be moving at the same arbitrary speed, but as soon as those electrons start moving, their interactions with the nucleus dictate whether the atom continues to function. Speed is absolutely relevant: if the nucleus is running away from the electron in excess of the electron's maximum speed, the atom cannot under any circumstances hold itself together. Or, if you prefer, the nucleus will crash into electrons that happen to be in front of it.

Segev

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #34 on: May 30, 2013, 05:43:50 PM »
Are you sure you understood my post correctly? You've just reiterated two of the things I indicated, and prepended them with "you're way, way off" (-:
In that case, your points don't support your conclusion, as I go on to demonstrate why my (I thought counter-)points counter your conclusion.


Don't forget that the electron will change its direction. It will eventually move in the opposite direction as the nucleus (relative to the nucleus), at which point it has to turn around. What happens if the nucleus is traveling faster than the speed of the electron? Will the electron move faster than the speed of electrons in order to keep up?
When the moon orbits the Earth, does it going backwards cause the moon to be unable to keep up with the Earth on its way "back?"

Same thing happens with a constant-speed atom. It's the acceleration that would be of concern. If hyperlight travel is possible by acceleration beyond the c-barrier, we can accelerate the nucleus at a rate such that it never is sharp enough to lose its electrons. When the nucleus is moving at a constant greater-than-c velocity, the electrons will be moving at the same net velocity despite their orbit. Changing directions doesn't cause them to slow down; you, yourself, pointed out a lack of air resistance, so there's nothing to cause them to be "stripped off." They "catch back up" for the same reason the moon "catches back up" with the Earth.

Again: acceleration is the only thing that could generate relative inertial forces, which are what you're relying on to strip off electrons. They don't suddenly lose their net velocity just because their instantaneous velocity is altering according to orbital mechanics.

((Actually, you're using a relatively inaccurate model of an electron here, too, for this purpose. Electrons, being tiny, enjoy or suffer quantum effects when considered as part of their atom. They don't orbit at all like the moon, but instead have a constant probability distribution at specific energy levels of being at any given distance from the nucleus at any given point in time. So the entire notion of velocity breaking them off doesn't work, because they don't "change direction." They exist, theoretically, in a quantum superstate of probability, and it wouldn't be until they WERE separated from the atom that you could even localize them to more than a probability distribution between multiple energy levels.))

In some discrete, hypothetical point-in-time scenario perhaps an atom's nucleus and electrons can be moving at the same arbitrary speed, but as soon as those electrons start moving, their interactions with the nucleus dictate whether the atom continues to function. Speed is absolutely relevant: if the nucleus is running away from the electron in excess of the electron's maximum speed, the atom cannot under any circumstances hold itself together. Or, if you prefer, the nucleus will crash into electrons that happen to be in front of it.
What is this "maximum speed" of an electron you talk about? Why do electrons have a maximum speed, but this nucleus does not? As for the "crashing" into electrons ahead of it, see the point in parentheses about electron clouds and quantum probabilities.

Electrons will never "crash into" the nucleus because the weak nuclear force will shove them away far, far too hard as they get close. Now, that might qualify as "crashing," since contact is never genuine and is always a force pushing things away, but electrons are rigidly held in energy states. So, no, speed is not relevant, because the electrons are either moving at the same net velocity, or the atom has already broken apart, or the atom is accelerating.

If acceleration is such that it's breaking the atom apart, that's just a ton of energy you're pouring into it to achieve just that effect.

GuyPerfect

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2013, 06:43:56 PM »
What is this "maximum speed" of an electron you talk about?

It's what prevents electrons from moving infinitely fast. Unless you mean to argue that they do? There's no sub-atomic "air" for them to press against, but they do exhibit some form of "terminal velocity" or else every electron in existence would utilize infinite energy over infinitely small time frames.

On the other hand, if electrons DID have super powers like that, they could totally continue to orbit nuclei moving in excess of the speed of light. But they don't, which is the basis of my hypothesis.


They exist, theoretically, in a quantum superstate of probability, and it wouldn't be until they WERE separated from the atom that you could even localize them to more than a probability distribution between multiple energy levels.

Now we're getting into the silly things I mentioned. Surely you're not suggesting that randomness exists in the real world?

Segev

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2013, 06:57:04 PM »
It's what prevents electrons from moving infinitely fast. Unless you mean to argue that they do? There's no sub-atomic "air" for them to press against, but they do exhibit some form of "terminal velocity" or else every electron in existence would utilize infinite energy over infinitely small time frames.

On the other hand, if electrons DID have super powers like that, they could totally continue to orbit nuclei moving in excess of the speed of light. But they don't, which is the basis of my hypothesis.
Why do nuclei have the capacity, in your model, to exceed the speed of light/travel infinitely fast, but electrons do not?


Now we're getting into the silly things I mentioned. Surely you're not suggesting that randomness exists in the real world?
It exists to a sufficient degree that there are systems we lack sufficient information to predict before their outcome is determined. We have established that this level of uncertainty can lead to very strange effects that put lie to the idea that electrons are some sort of localized mass that has a definite position and velocity even if we don't know of it; quantum tunneling is a proven phenomenon. Therefore, the model is sufficiently accurate that it is not safe to claim that the electrons must be orbiting like mini-planets.

But even so, your theory is inconsistent, because you hypothesize a maximum speed for electrons, but not for nuclei.

Codewalker

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2013, 07:19:33 PM »
I'd like to see Guy's explanation for the result of the two-slit experiment when firing a single photon at a time and still detecting an interference pattern.

GuyPerfect

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2013, 08:05:44 PM »
Why do nuclei have the capacity, in your model, to exceed the speed of light/travel infinitely fast, but electrons do not?

I imagine any particle could go any speed given some magical force (provided IT won't fall apart for similar reasons). Will a proton disintegrate into its constituent quarks if it exceeds a certain speed? Maybe. I don't know. But I certainly never suggested that it wouldn't, since, not knowing one way or the other, that would be foolish.

In the context of one atom, the force that draws in the electrons has some measurable magnitude, meaning that there is a finite upper bound to how fast the nucleus can move before the electron can no longer orbit it. Will the nucleus itself fall apart before it reaches that speed? Who knows. But no matter how you slice it, if the atom gets moving fast enough, it will cease to hold itself together.

And time travel won't have occurred.

Taceus Jiwede

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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2013, 11:46:30 PM »
You know if I had telekinetic powers I would use them to make people think their house was haunted but moving their stuff around without touching it.

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I'd like to see Guy's explanation for the result of the two-slit experiment when firing a single photon at a time and still detecting an interference pattern.

Codewalker, correct me if I am wrong or thinking of something else I just would like to know more about it if I am thinking of the same thing.  But I recall reading something that I think might be that experiment.  Is that the one where they are planning on using the information from that experiment(and current ones still going ) to build certain tech to make faster transfers of information in things such as Swiss bank accounts, military intelligence, and whatever other things need to be nice and secure.  And then in the awesome world of Quantum Physics they think this type of information could also be used for all kinds of awesome things in which one example they listed was something that was similar to teleportation?

I know that is a weird question but when I came across that article I was really interested, but I wasn't able to find it again and I couldn't remember enough of it to look into it more.  So if any of that sounds familiar to the experiment you are speaking about I would like to know more about it.  If not, it still sounds cool and would like to know more about the one you are speaking of anyway:P This is a bit of a jumbled post but I love this kind of stuff and to hop in!
« Last Edit: May 31, 2013, 12:03:44 AM by Taceus Jiwede »