Help out SEGS

[JaguarX]

I thought SEGS was basically hacking into the stuff and turning on the lights again. From some comments, it would  seem that isnt the case and have to replace the IP stuff. Although, then, isnt that what the other two projects are basically already doing?

How hard is it to gather the information of the original game, figure out the communication stuff and distribute it to the people? Not asking in snark or anything just really want to understand the processes that may be involved.

[Ironwolf]

I have written many guides for back at Issue 3/4 times and once it starts - I could write them again.

I have the fire tank build memorized. I even built a fire/ice tank with Heal self, heal others, rez and the fighting pool with acrobatics.

The big adjustments folks will have is the lack of knockback protection. However back in those days it was called City of Blasters for a reason. A fire/fire blaster can absolutely melt some groups into little puddles back then. The Banished had a slight glitch that had them with ZERO resisitance to fire. They could be slaughtered by the hundreds.

However no super-side kick and no AE.  It will be a visit in the way back machine to when the world was new and glorious.

[Heroette]

I have written many guides for back at Issue 3/4 times and once it starts - I could write them again.

I have the fire tank build memorized. I even built a fire/ice tank with Heal self, heal others, rez and the fighting pool with acrobatics.

The big adjustments folks will have is the lack of knockback protection. However back in those days it was called City of Blasters for a reason. A fire/fire blaster can absolutely melt some groups into little puddles back then. The Banished had a slight glitch that had them with ZERO resisitance to fire. They could be slaughtered by the hundreds.

However no super-side kick and no AE.  It will be a visit in the way back machine to when the world was new and glorious.

My first toon was a fire/fire blaster, way back in the day.  I will be remaking her as soon as I can.  I also understood that what was being built was us being able to play the game as it was in Issue 3/4.  Am I mistaken?

[TonyV]

It's going to be turned into a game world that dimly reminds us of the game world we lost, inaccessible and filled with unresolved story arcs.

The practical situation is that NCsoft owns the intellectual property for City of Heroes.  We have diligently tried to get them to transfer it to someone else who would take care of it, and they have yet to give us any indication that they're willing to do so.  They've never done so in the past.  At this point, it is highly likely that they will retain control over it indefinitely.  We haven't given up on the prospect, there's a team specifically dedicated to that purpose and they're working hard to keep pounding away at it, but I want to set reasonable expectations.  Things will never be the same as they were.

You just couldn't convince me that this is a respectful way for the community to honor and resurrect City of Heroes--by carving it out, tossing its heart aside and appropriating its shell.

That depends on what precisely you mean by "City of Heroes".  It means different things to different people.  To some people, it was a way to spend time with their friends, and some of them have moved on to other games.  To them, their experience hasn't degraded that much; they're still spending time with their friends.  To some, it's the story, characters, art, etc.  Believe it or not, but some of them haven't been affected much, either.  They no longer have the world in which to act out their stories, but nothing is stopping someone from writing stories about Positron or drawing their characters, as long as they're not doing it for profit.  To some people, the story and lore of the game were largely irrelevant.  They found the mechanics of the game to be fun and exciting.  It really was about just going out there and beating Nazis up.  Some of these people are able to find at least a large part of what made the game fun in other venues.

I'm not sure exactly how you want "the community" (please keep in mind that we're not just one monolithic hive mind) to honor City of Heroes.  We have people working hard on creating new games that capture the essence of what made the game fun for those who enjoyed the mechanics entertaining.  We have people working on reverse engineering the server to provide the exact experience mechanics-wise of playing the game.  I know of at least one project working to go further.  We have people still fighting their butts off to get some other company to buy the IP and relaunch the game.  We have people working to effect change through public relations.  We still have people writing fan fiction and creating art based on City of Heroes characters.  We have people still recognizing the heroic spirit of our community.  We even have people committing financial resources purely in the spirit of helping out members of our community.  I mean, seriously, what else are we supposed to be doing?

I think that all of these efforts are honoring the game and its community in their own ways.  Who am I, or who is anyone else, to judge which of these efforts is or isn't worthwhile?  And I know that sometimes these various efforts will bicker among themselves; that's part of being a community of human beings and not, as I said, a monolithic hive mind.  Various efforts will compete against each other for attention, and that's normal, expected, and fine by me.  The only place I draw the line is when it comes to things like physical threats or intimidation, and stupid stuff like promoting racism.

I don't know how many times I have to say this, but the City of Heroes community, the Titan Network, and even the Save City of Heroes movements are not one-trick ponies.  We're a pretty inclusive bunch of people who have various opinions on how best to honor the game and its community.  We're not just about making NCsoft out to be cartoonishly evil, but we have those people and love 'em.  We're not just about keeping players together, even if it's in playing other games, but we have those people and love 'em.  We're not just about trying to get some other company to buy City of Heroes and relaunch the game, but we have those people and love 'em.  We're not just about creating a new game that doesn't include any characters or places from City of Heroes, but we have those people and we love 'em.  We're not just about reverse engineering the server within a spectrum of legally gray areas from pristine to a bit more murky, but we have those people and we love 'em.

I just really, really wish that people would stop trying to pigeonhole this community and the Titan Network and telling us what we should or shouldn't be about.

[Ampithere]

I was under the impression that at least one server emulation project didn't care that NCSoft owned the IP. Frankly, I don't personally care that they own the IP either. The fact is I want to play City of Heroes. Not City of Knockoffs. If the server emulators aren't emulating City of Heroes, then they are a waste of time. Those people could be lending a hand to the Phoenix Project, which is better than emulating the server and ripping out the content. I just don't understand the merit of emulating the server if we don't get to play City of Heroes on it. What's the point?

I doubt NCSoft will take action, they didn't even care enough to make a serious effort to respond to us or our concerns. Besides, it's not like they'd get anywhere. They can shut down one server but all we need is character import/export so it can open up again at another address. Repeat indefinitely.

[TonyV]

I just don't understand the merit of emulating the server if we don't get to play City of Heroes on it. What's the point?

I direct you to this thread and the excitement it generated because people were merely able to see their characters on the screen again.  As I said and thought I expounded upon in great detail above, City of Heroes is different things to different people.  Maybe you don't see the value in it, but please do not dismiss the value to others.

[Ampithere]

I direct you to this thread and the excitement it generated because people were merely able to see their characters on the screen again.  As I said and thought I expounded upon in great detail above, City of Heroes is different things to different people.  Maybe you don't see the value in it, but please do not dismiss the value to others.

I'm not denying that there's excitement there. But a significant portion of the excitement comes from the fact that this shows some sort of hope for being able to play again.

The cold hard truth is that CoH will never be CoH without the same zones, stories, NPCs, etc. Even people that think they just miss the mechanics will discover that pretty quickly.

In any case, it's objectively a more valuable investment to build a new game entirely than to emulate the CoH server and put something there that isn't CoH. I'm not even sure who would be creating that. With all the people that are already at the Phoenix Project, who would be left to model all the new NPCs, map out all the new zones, and write all the new stories? Nemerle, by himself?

I just don't understand why anyone would want a CoH server without the CoH content instead of the Phoenix Project.

Not to mention it would feel like rolling over. I'm not done defying NCSoft, and letting the idea of drawing their attention intimidate us into not playing CoH again is sickening. Especially when it'd be relatively easy to avoid any ramifications at all.

[JaguarX]

The practical situation is that NCsoft owns the intellectual property for City of Heroes.  We have diligently tried to get them to transfer it to someone else who would take care of it, and they have yet to give us any indication that they're willing to do so.  They've never done so in the past.  At this point, it is highly likely that they will retain control over it indefinitely.  We haven't given up on the prospect, there's a team specifically dedicated to that purpose and they're working hard to keep pounding away at it, but I want to set reasonable expectations.  Things will never be the same as they were.

That depends on what precisely you mean by "City of Heroes".  It means different things to different people.  To some people, it was a way to spend time with their friends, and some of them have moved on to other games.  To them, their experience hasn't degraded that much; they're still spending time with their friends.  To some, it's the story, characters, art, etc.  Believe it or not, but some of them haven't been affected much, either.  They no longer have the world in which to act out their stories, but nothing is stopping someone from writing stories about Positron or drawing their characters, as long as they're not doing it for profit.  To some people, the story and lore of the game were largely irrelevant.  They found the mechanics of the game to be fun and exciting.  It really was about just going out there and beating Nazis up.  Some of these people are able to find at least a large part of what made the game fun in other venues.

I'm not sure exactly how you want "the community" (please keep in mind that we're not just one monolithic hive mind) to honor City of Heroes.  We have people working hard on creating new games that capture the essence of what made the game fun for those who enjoyed the mechanics entertaining.  We have people working on reverse engineering the server to provide the exact experience mechanics-wise of playing the game.  I know of at least one project working to go further.  We have people still fighting their butts off to get some other company to buy the IP and relaunch the game.  We have people working to effect change through public relations.  We still have people writing fan fiction and creating art based on City of Heroes characters.  We have people still recognizing the heroic spirit of our community.  We even have people committing financial resources purely in the spirit of helping out members of our community.  I mean, seriously, what else are we supposed to be doing?

I think that all of these efforts are honoring the game and its community in their own ways.  Who am I, or who is anyone else, to judge which of these efforts is or isn't worthwhile?  And I know that sometimes these various efforts will bicker among themselves; that's part of being a community of human beings and not, as I said, a monolithic hive mind.  Various efforts will compete against each other for attention, and that's normal, expected, and fine by me.  The only place I draw the line is when it comes to things like physical threats or intimidation, and stupid stuff like promoting racism.

I don't know how many times I have to say this, but the City of Heroes community, the Titan Network, and even the Save City of Heroes movements are not one-trick ponies.  We're a pretty inclusive bunch of people who have various opinions on how best to honor the game and its community.  We're not just about making NCsoft out to be cartoonishly evil, but we have those people and love 'em.  We're not just about keeping players together, even if it's in playing other games, but we have those people and love 'em.  We're not just about trying to get some other company to buy City of Heroes and relaunch the game, but we have those people and love 'em.  We're not just about creating a new game that doesn't include any characters or places from City of Heroes, but we have those people and we love 'em.  We're not just about reverse engineering the server within a spectrum of legally gray areas from pristine to a bit more murky, but we have those people and we love 'em.

I just really, really wish that people would stop trying to pigeonhole this community and the Titan Network and telling us what we should or shouldn't be about.

And with this you answered alotof my questions, some have been lingering for a while some new, but these wrods you wrote is very welcomed to me even if it was directed at more towards another statement.

And I agree, the community Savecoh or otherwise Titan Network isnt just out to get one thing done and one thing done only. There are many things going on. This is like a community of COX players(although the game itself is gone some people still consider themselves COX players even while playing other games in the meantime), ex-COXer players, new people, and etc. all in one place. It's good stuff.  And to be quite frankly, I think we grew as a community and by this I mean no disrespect but grew in maturity and accectance of ideas that may not be inline with what we think is the greatest idea in the entire world and the other view is about dumb as a bag of rocks.  And this was done with only a few moderators that didnt get hammer happy during the process. That goes to show that this community is very good (understatement?). Not many communities are able to do that.

I know somethings are longshots, some things are certain, some things might even be "impossible" but even with the impossible stuff, how do people know it's impossible? Someone have to try it first, then every so often it must be tried to ensure it is in fact still "impossible". That is the main thing to me, no matter how abstract the idea is, even if I shy away from it and say so, they must try anyways and not let me nor anyone else stop them or get  them down. I've seen stranger things happen. Although some of the greatest works are forged in the furnace of opposing views. Imagine Einstein without Jules Henri Poincaré, Henry Ford without William C. Durant, Lamborghini without Ferrari, Adams without Jefferson, Ciroc without Grey Goose, Statesman without Lord Recluse, Nemesis without non-plotters, love without hate, emotions without apathy, leaders without followers.

[Codewalker]

If the server emulators aren't emulating City of Heroes, then they are a waste of time.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that the two are inexorably linked somehow.

Content = Cart
Server = Horse

At the moment we have neither, so producing one hardly involves "ripping out" anything.

If a contentless server can be created (in order to minimize the legal risk to its creators), and then put into the hands of people who can create content for it, regardless of what content that is, then what's the downside? I mean I doubt the server will be hardcoded to prevent you from naming an NPC "Statesman" if you want...

[JaguarX]

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that the two are inexorably linked somehow.

Content = Cart
Server = Horse

Sooooo do we put the horse under the cart or in the cart? Or do we put the cart on top of the horse?

[Twisted Toon]

Sooooo do we put the horse under the cart or in the cart? Or do we put the cart on top of the horse?

I think the cart goes in the stable and the horse in the kitchen.

but, however unlikely, I could be mistaken.

[Kistulot]

Who do you love more, Ms Liberty (and I am a big proponent of Ms Liberty) or your characters?

If you cant have Libby to help you level up your character, will they still be your character?

Considering at the moment your only alternative is to play DCUO or CO and make a half-donkey'd attempt at recreating the character, I'd say either option espoused in this thread is much better.

I miss CoH so much right now. :(

[Ampithere]

I'm just saying, if it's not going to be CoH then in what way is it better to wait for the server emulator and wait for the Phoenix Project? Why divide our resources across so many different projects? All it's doing is making them each take longer. The server emulators will probably take longer than the Phoenix Project at this stage if they aren't being used with the pre-existing CoH content. Especially if my assumption is correct and they have incredibly small teams working on them. You guys keep referencing new content that can be created for it. But who is going to make the content? I see no reason why we can't use the CoH content until such time as NCSoft sends a c&d at least. Maybe they don't send one and nothing has to get changed. Maybe they do and someone has to build a whole new game using the CoH tech. We have all these people running around saying to save our CoH data because server emulators are being made. If nobody is going to be using that CoH data, then the whole community is being fed false hope about these projects.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing to get the server code out there. You want to work on that, fine. But tell people exactly what you're doing. You're reverse engineering the server. Don't act like it brings the game back. It doesn't. It's a new game with identical mechanics.

If I'm not running around in Atlas Park fighting Hellions then it's not CoH, I don't care how similar the powersets are. Where does that leave me, and the others like me? Those of us that saved the game data? What do we do?

[saipaman]

As I understand SEGS, it really is City of Heroes.  Just perhaps not at the issue level to which you are accustomed.

[downix]

I'm just saying, if it's not going to be CoH then in what way is it better to wait for the server emulator and wait for the Phoenix Project? Why divide our resources across so many different projects? All it's doing is making them each take longer. The server emulators will probably take longer than the Phoenix Project at this stage if they aren't being used with the pre-existing CoH content. Especially if my assumption is correct and they have incredibly small teams working on them. You guys keep referencing new content that can be created for it. But who is going to make the content? I see no reason why we can't use the CoH content until such time as NCSoft sends a c&d at least. Maybe they don't send one and nothing has to get changed. Maybe they do and someone has to build a whole new game using the CoH tech. We have all these people running around saying to save our CoH data because server emulators are being made. If nobody is going to be using that CoH data, then the whole community is being fed false hope about these projects.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing to get the server code out there. You want to work on that, fine. But tell people exactly what you're doing. You're reverse engineering the server. Don't act like it brings the game back. It doesn't. It's a new game with identical mechanics.

If I'm not running around in Atlas Park fighting Hellions then it's not CoH, I don't care how similar the powersets are. Where does that leave me, and the others like me? Those of us that saved the game data? What do we do?

There's still PlanZ

[Golden Girl]

I see no reason why we can't use the CoH content until such time as NCSoft sends a c&d at least.

Which then wipes out all our work and puts us back to square one.

[r00tb0ySlim]

If I'm not running around in Atlas Park fighting Hellions then it's not CoH, I don't care how similar the powersets are. Where does that leave me, and the others like me? Those of us that saved the game data? What do we do?

Unfortunately all of our options will take time and yea it sucks not having the game, but I will take what is available right now.  Let's see what comes next.  I think SEGS will continue to progress and it is nice to go back in time a bit...I even forgot how simple the login screen looked back then.  Yea, I want some Hellion action too, but remember we are all in on the ground floor of something special here with many different possible outcomes!!

[JaguarX]

Which then wipes out all our work and out us back to square one.

I think it would be best to try and avoid purposely trying irk them to send a C&D if possible as GG is right. Although maybe they'll send it anyways but it's best for it to be baseless or have to put in work to prove than an easy sitting duck for them. It might end up where we are now except, a year or two in the future.
Then again maybe nothing will happen. I did post three links about laws of that nature and hope it clears some stuff up.

If it's the server stuff, should be good.
If it's direct copy of COH, might be gray area.

Then again there havent been one solid answer to what exactly are they doing. Some say it's just reverse engineering of the server and all IP will be taken out, some say it will be COH in earlier mode starting right up, some say it's not reverse engineering, and depending on what is actually going on of course have different risk levels.

But from the video that has been shown, it looks like COH early issue direct.

[Ampithere]

There's still PlanZ

Which is my entire point. Why work on the server emulation if we already are going to have a new game anyway? Especially when we have a limited pool of experienced coders. The only point would be if it was going to be City of Heroes. If it's not going to be, then it's functionally identical to having a new game. Plan Z is already a new game. Thus we don't need non-CoH servers using CoH mechanics.

*Begin General Response*

As far as wiping out the work of server emulation...what work? If they send a c&d over the content, you change whatever you were going to change in the first place. It would be significantly less work to use the NCSoft property than to create an entirely separate IP on top of what's already being made for the Phoenix Project. Understand that I have no problem with the Phoenix Project. Quite frankly, it's the most exciting thing I've ever seen happen and I can't wait for it to succeed. Which is the source of my frustration. I don't understand this need to unnecessarily tear apart the game we loved to emulate some crap version of it while we wait. IF the people making the non-SEGS project (as I understand it, SEGS is using NCSoft property so far at least) are afraid to host a server using NCSoft content then let someone else do it. I can understand that. What I can't understand is packing up and telling us we have to just deal with it. What you are telling people is that you have the power to restore our game, but are choosing not to. Instead, you would dishonor it by removing large chunks.

Now, I think it's past time that the other server emulation project come out tell us what it is you're doing. If it's what it looks like, you have no reason to hide from NCSoft because you're not even going to try setting up a server using anything they technically own. If we as a community deserve anything, we deserve to know the truth of what's going on behind closed doors. Are you going to give us our game back as it was (I24 client), as it used to be (I3-4 client/SEGS I think), or not at all (some abomination that is but a shadow).

[Victoria Victrix]

I think it extremely unwise to dictate to other people what they "should" and "should not" do/reveal/contribute to.  Demands never earn friends.