Author Topic: Help out SEGS  (Read 56301 times)

Nyx Nought Nothing

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #80 on: March 08, 2013, 04:31:23 AM »
Er, Captain Electric, the server didn't have all that stuff on it. Your client does. The server enables you to use your client. The server is what is being reverse-engineered.
Actually, all the client had was basically the art assets and animations. Mission design, story arcs, all of the writing and dialogue were hosted on the servers. Hell, the entire combat engine, including PC and NPC stats, mob AI, and everything else was handled by the server.

i really applaud the effort being put into the server emulator; even more so since such a Herculean task is being done mostly by one person. All the more so since the really hard work will be rebuilding the combat engine and mob AI from scratch. Although that does leave open the possibility of putting together a more balanced combat system. Also that means you're not limited to content predating Issue 3 since you could hypothetically recreate any content that doesn't require assets the Issue 3 client can't support.

Unless i'm misunderstanding what SEGS is based on. Without actual server code it's a bunch of information on how to communicate with the client, but no access to the actual combat engine and game data. However, there is a lot of information on how the combat system worked and the wiki has mission text and descriptions which should make recreating it easier.
So far so good. Onward and upward!

Captain Electric

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #81 on: March 08, 2013, 05:17:36 AM »
Yep, there were a lot of things on the server that are normally contained by the client in MMOs. But again, like I said above, what Tony was talking about in the part that I quoted isn't really about the client or the server specifically. It's about significant aspects of the IP, wherever those aspects are contained. Tony has brought this up several times since the end of 2012--the party working on the Issue 23/24 community server (not SEGS) will be stripping the game world/play experience of a significant amount of location names, NPCs, art assets and so on. Pretty much anything and everything that the IP was known for. Although many of these files may be located in the client, that doesn't mean they'll be used; on the contrary, you'll never see characters like Positron or villain groups like Arachnos on the community server. The motivation is to avoid IP infringement, and smacks of a decision made by someone who only felt emotionally invested in stats and game mechanics, but the end result will be the removal of almost everything many of us remember and love about the game universe. I've brought up my concern over this in every single status update thread since October I think, and I sent Tony and other parties a couple of long screeds in PMs; because out of the many people I've spoken to about it over the last few months, I haven't spoken to a single fan of the game who is happy about it. It's going to be turned into a game world that dimly reminds us of the game world we lost, inaccessible and filled with unresolved story arcs.

I admire the people involved in this for all their work and just for who they are, and I consider us all on the same team; but on this particular point, I am a fan of the work that Paragon Studios put into the City of Heroes universe, and I am not a happy camper about this and haven't been since October or November. You just couldn't convince me that this is a respectful way for the community to honor and resurrect City of Heroes--by carving it out, tossing its heart aside and appropriating its shell.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 05:30:27 AM by Captain Electric »

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #82 on: March 08, 2013, 08:20:53 AM »
You just couldn't convince me that this is a respectful way for the community to honor and resurrect City of Heroes--by carving it out, tossing its heart aside and appropriating its shell.
I'm sorry sir, but wouldn't the real heart of City of Heroes be it's community ?

And usually servers like SEGS are made in such a way as to allow anyone to recreate ( or not. ) the original experience with highest fidelity possible. So the new body that the community would live in, would be as close to it's original, as close the community would wish it to be :)

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #83 on: March 08, 2013, 10:40:56 AM »
Yep, there were a lot of things on the server that are normally contained by the client in MMOs. But again, like I said above, what Tony was talking about in the part that I quoted isn't really about the client or the server specifically. It's about significant aspects of the IP, wherever those aspects are contained. Tony has brought this up several times since the end of 2012--the party working on the Issue 23/24 community server (not SEGS) will be stripping the game world/play experience of a significant amount of location names, NPCs, art assets and so on. Pretty much anything and everything that the IP was known for. Although many of these files may be located in the client, that doesn't mean they'll be used; on the contrary, you'll never see characters like Positron or villain groups like Arachnos on the community server. The motivation is to avoid IP infringement, and smacks of a decision made by someone who only felt emotionally invested in stats and game mechanics, but the end result will be the removal of almost everything many of us remember and love about the game universe. I've brought up my concern over this in every single status update thread since October I think, and I sent Tony and other parties a couple of long screeds in PMs; because out of the many people I've spoken to about it over the last few months, I haven't spoken to a single fan of the game who is happy about it. It's going to be turned into a game world that dimly reminds us of the game world we lost, inaccessible and filled with unresolved story arcs.

I admire the people involved in this for all their work and just for who they are, and I consider us all on the same team; but on this particular point, I am a fan of the work that Paragon Studios put into the City of Heroes universe, and I am not a happy camper about this and haven't been since October or November. You just couldn't convince me that this is a respectful way for the community to honor and resurrect City of Heroes--by carving it out, tossing its heart aside and appropriating its shell.
I beg to differ. You could take all of the locations and group names and slap them onto the CO engine and it would just be a mockery of Paragon City.

City of Heroes was more than just locations, villains, Heroes, and the occasional PPD officer running around flailing his arms. The game mechanics were also important. They determined how you interacted with the previously mentioned locations, villains, heroes, and PPD officers. If the dialog and back stories are done well, the new server could be just a continuation of the fight against villainy, hero-y, and PPD officers not getting their acts together. Yes, they can not use the Villain/Hero groups or characters from the City of Heroes IP. But, they can give the game the same feel. And that feel is what is important. Not the names we give the locations, villain/hero groups and NPCs.

My personal opinion would be to create a totally new city that has Heroes with different personalities than the Freedom Phalanx (as an example). Don't try to just change the name and call it good. Make it a different story all together. But make it a sequel.

However, that calls for much more work than just making a server that can run the client.
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Captain Electric

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #84 on: March 08, 2013, 11:47:14 AM »
Well I guess I've found some people who are okay way this.

I'll tell you what this feels like to a fan of the fiction and game universe, and to a fan of the writers who worked their asses off for a decade at Cryptic and Paragon Studios to come up with all of the content: it's probably like if you'd bought Marvel Comics (of which I'm also a long-time fan) and informed me that you were planning to just replace every major character and storyline with a bunch of fan-made crap. "It's still going to be hero-y".

And, in fact, it would be. It often was, in Mission Architect and all the fan-made comics I read. But that doesn't mean one ought to exist to exclude the other. There's no benefit in doing this to the community server (again, I am not referencing SEGS). We have two great fan-made games in development. There's no good reason to gut the IP from the community server. It won't stop NCSoft from sending a cease and desist if that's what they want to do. This is because all of this will be taking place in a legal gray area. EULAs aren't the law and cease and desists aren't federal documents, they're written by corporate lawyers who can write anything they want to. Why do you think people call it legal bullying?

You're never going to see me smile about this. We still won't have Paragon City back. It's an unnecessary sacrifice. However, I'm glad that it doesn't affect you--no sarcasm. No harm in a little disagreement.

In fact I agree with the poster above you that my word choice ("heart") is something that should instead be applied to the community. Right on to that. Fully agree.

But unfortunately, my friends and I role-played in City of Heroes partly for each others company and storylines, and partly for the game's storylines and overall continuity. We entangled our own characters and storylines with those of the many story arcs that defined Primal Earth, Praetoria and beyond. We made ourselves part of it. We were fans of the fiction. I read every Blue King and Top Cow/Image comic and both novels. Oh yeah--and I read all of my mission text. If all you saw were generic villains and heroes and PPD officers flailing their arms around, then you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree. Maybe it just didn't do it for you. Well, OK. I'm not saying you're somehow awful for not appreciating what I was a big fan of.

But, man oh man, if anyone from Paragon Studios happens to read this thread, especially any of the writers and other mission designers--your work wasn't wasted. You had fans. Big fans. They might have moved on to other games and forums, they may or may not show up here to back me up. But there were times when I logged in and played with them almost every night!

We were there.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 12:24:37 PM by Captain Electric »

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #85 on: March 08, 2013, 12:50:07 PM »
I'm with Captain Electric here.  I'm a big fan of the stories and content.  If all the elements IP, Characters, stories, aren't there then it's a Frankenstein Version of CoH.  If it can't be brought back 100% then it's not back.  Better to let it Rest in Peace then to have a hollowed out shell. 

One way or another... Heroes will fly again!

Kemphler

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #86 on: March 08, 2013, 01:53:35 PM »
I'd have to agree as well on this. We can't turn the game we loved into a husk and expect to still enjoy it. The content and stories, the characters and plots. All of that is what helped make CoH the best superhero MMO ever. We may enjoy the gutted game for a time, but I don't think it would ever feel right.
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Twisted Toon

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #87 on: March 08, 2013, 01:58:12 PM »
Wait a minute. I'm not saying that they should make a Zombie CoH. That is, in effect, what just slapping a new name and character model on the existing NPCs and groups would be doing. I'm saying they need to make a whole new city, with a different story. It's like reading the sequel to a book that you love.

Just so you know, I am a huge fan of the Devs that worked long and hard for our entertainment. I enjoyed the story arcs. I read all the mission text as well. I had characters whose backgrounds were specifically inspired and designed around Paragon City, the Rogue Isles, and Pretoria. Trust me, I do appreciate what you're a fan of. But, I'm looking at the community server as a place that my Heroes could have found as a refuge from the destruction of Paragon City. It would give me a chance to play my Heroes again. Hopefully, with new stories and locations to discover. A sequel.  And, if CoH ever gets released from the death-grip that NCSoft seems to have it in, there is no reason that the two games couldn't exist side-by-side. One does not have to be destroyed for the other to exist. That was why I suggested making a new and different city with different stories.

As I said before, City of Heroes was more than just the stories and characters. Part of it was also how you interacted with those stories and characters. The game mechanics. It all comes together as a whole to give the City its "feel". You won't get that same feeling by placing the stories and characters into a different game engine. The powers wouldn't work the same way, which would make the characters you've created feel wrong. I know this because I've tried it with a couple of other MMOs already. If the characters can function the same way they do in Paragon City, then those characters can fight crime anywhere and it won't feel weird playing those characters. And, if you're really into role-playing those characters, they can certainly miss Paragon City while defending the innocent elsewhere. That is what I'm trying to convey here.

But, I would really like to have the authentic City of Heroes back. 
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Captain Electric

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #88 on: March 08, 2013, 02:46:14 PM »
They are not going to recreate an entirely new game world and new zones using the City of Heroes engine (although I wouldn't be surprised if you saw additional zones eventually). The reasons for this are numerous. For one thing, the amount of work that it would take would not be feasible. The amount of geographical content that could be created in any sort of time frame by volunteers would be a fraction of what the full-time dev team produced over the course of a decade. So you can expect that the community server will utilize zones that are already there, even if they're called different names.

Don't get me wrong, I think that over a longer period of time, something like your idea may be feasible, judging by some other MMO emulators in existence. If the server code ever became disseminated, you may see entirely new and original cities sprouting up. But it would be a tremendous amount of work, a real labor of love. This would be years farther along than it would take to launch a community server utilizing the client's current assets. It would be out there long after other free super hero MMOs had launched. Anyone working or playing in those servers will be a real die hard. Time will march on, other super hero games will release. If you're looking for a shiny new city, you won't be playing a 15 or 20 year-old game. (On the other hand, I can't tell the future, but I won't be surprised if I'm still playing City of Heroes on somebody's server in another 10 years--so maybe you can relate.)

Back to the present, and maybe more importantly, Paragon City was not destroyed. You ought not interpret NCSoft's closure of the game as some kind of canon event inside the game world. Paragon Studios were the authors of the canon, not their publisher. Paragon Studios had no intention to destroy Paragon City; although in future issues, the Battalion would have made an attempt. Now, if the Battalion ever arrived to rain destruction on Paragon City, it would be up to a volunteer community server team to write that content into the game. But they're not going to do it.

Quote
Wait a minute. I'm not saying that they should make a Zombie CoH. That is, in effect, what just slapping a new name and character model on the existing NPCs and groups would be doing.

Now we're on the same page.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 03:03:44 PM by Captain Electric »

pewlagon

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #89 on: March 08, 2013, 02:52:24 PM »
Crain Electric, you have summed up my sentiments exactly. Thank you.

Captain Electric

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #90 on: March 08, 2013, 03:02:10 PM »
You're welcome, and also to the posters above who presumably relate to my disappointment about this.

Now I'm off to work, and then to play both the Neverwinter and Marvel Heroes betas through the weekend, so forgive me if my whining in this thread takes a dip in quantity or quality.  ;)

Noyjitat

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #91 on: March 08, 2013, 03:11:14 PM »
All of the dialogue and npc names are on the wiki. Cut - Copy - Paste that in once a functional server is ready. It will be a longer process but that's what mission designer volunteers are for.

Captain Electric

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #92 on: March 08, 2013, 03:16:12 PM »
Noyjitat, the community server will actively avoid using all of that content. As Tony has stated since October at least, it will not be going into the game and will instead be replaced by fan-made content or just left out. I'd explain but I have to go. I hate to be one of those "read the thread types" but...  ;D

JaguarX

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #93 on: March 08, 2013, 03:17:52 PM »
http://digital-law-online.info/lpdi1.0/treatise27.html
http://digital-law-online.info/lpdi1.0/treatise26.html
http://digital-law-online.info/lpdi1.0/treatise25.html

SEGS will be ok. Hopefully the legal stuff and nerves is assuaged for good with the infor above. Cant wait for finished product. I assume that SEGS work probably will be done prior to the other two projects? If so, play the old version for a bit until the new ones come around, and people have the choice between three (at least) different COX derived/inspired/based off of/sequel/any other title that ma be given to the project to choose from? Awesome.  ;D

From what I gather, we all want to play some form of COX in one manner or another, some as COH was, some a derivative, some a sequel. If things go as planned, it would seemed there will be something for everyone eventually with no worries from being harasses by a bunch of people in tailored made suits with a briefcase full of paper. 


"Choice is always a good thing especially compared to no choice." J.X

JaguarX

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #94 on: March 08, 2013, 03:24:23 PM »
Noyjitat, you (and a lot of people) are misunderstanding the problem.

The community server will actively avoid using all of that content. As Tony has stated since October at least, it will not be going into the game and will instead be replaced by fan-made content or just left out. I'd explain but I have to go. I hate to be one of those "read the thread types" but...  ;D

Yeah I seen that too. Thus I have no idea really what to call it beyond community server what is the proper title of the work being done so when it does work, the methods can be given to people that is facing closure in other games and they wont have to lose their home entirely either without worries or negative things happening.

I'm becoming convinced that the work is safe, after some research of my own about the process as I thus far understand it and bit more at ease with giving it a try when it hits. My next step is protection from virus information, file corruption and usual mess up the computer or personal information vulnerability stuff but that is that journey that only I can seek out and complete. Yeah I wear a tin foil hat and a cape...and sometimes nothing else...but *ahem* yeah. But I dont forsee any issues but have to cover my bases.

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #95 on: March 08, 2013, 04:06:15 PM »
Yep, there were a lot of things on the server that are normally contained by the client in MMOs. But again, like I said above, what Tony was talking about in the part that I quoted isn't really about the client or the server specifically. It's about significant aspects of the IP, wherever those aspects are contained. Tony has brought this up several times since the end of 2012--the party working on the Issue 23/24 community server (not SEGS) will be stripping the game world/play experience of a significant amount of location names, NPCs, art assets and so on. Pretty much anything and everything that the IP was known for. Although many of these files may be located in the client, that doesn't mean they'll be used; on the contrary, you'll never see characters like Positron or villain groups like Arachnos on the community server. The motivation is to avoid IP infringement, and smacks of a decision made by someone who only felt emotionally invested in stats and game mechanics, but the end result will be the removal of almost everything many of us remember and love about the game universe. I've brought up my concern over this in every single status update thread since October I think, and I sent Tony and other parties a couple of long screeds in PMs; because out of the many people I've spoken to about it over the last few months, I haven't spoken to a single fan of the game who is happy about it. It's going to be turned into a game world that dimly reminds us of the game world we lost, inaccessible and filled with unresolved story arcs.

I admire the people involved in this for all their work and just for who they are, and I consider us all on the same team; but on this particular point, I am a fan of the work that Paragon Studios put into the City of Heroes universe, and I am not a happy camper about this and haven't been since October or November. You just couldn't convince me that this is a respectful way for the community to honor and resurrect City of Heroes--by carving it out, tossing its heart aside and appropriating its shell.

Speaking personally? I am fine with that, and I would play it like crazy. Because while I did enjoy the CoH lore, the characters I cared deeply about and kept coming back to the game for weren't Paragon Studio's--they were mine. I created them, I expressed them in the game, and I want to continue with their stories. Those stories might be in different worlds...heck, a lot of them didn't start out in Paragon City to begin with...but they will keep going this way. And I think that's a tremendous improvement over what I've got now.

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #96 on: March 08, 2013, 04:10:26 PM »
Speaking personally? I am fine with that, and I would play it like crazy. Because while I did enjoy the CoH lore, the characters I cared deeply about and kept coming back to the game for weren't Paragon Studio's--they were mine. I created them, I expressed them in the game, and I want to continue with their stories. Those stories might be in different worlds...heck, a lot of them didn't start out in Paragon City to begin with...but they will keep going this way. And I think that's a tremendous improvement over what I've got now.

This. If we don't get the original CoH back, a community server with just names changed is still better than what we have now.-

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #97 on: March 08, 2013, 04:21:12 PM »
I am kinda looking forward to the SEGS community server.  After playing COH for 8 years, it will be fun to play back "in the old days", so to speak.  Until something else comes along, I will be totally happy with I3/4.

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #98 on: March 08, 2013, 04:25:25 PM »
I am kinda looking forward to the SEGS community server.  After playing COH for 8 years, it will be fun to play back "in the old days", so to speak.  Until something else comes along, I will be totally happy with I3/4.

That should be an awesome experience too. I started playing on I7 so I'm looking forward to roll a Fire/Ice tanker to herd a whole map, heck, I've even worked out a tentative build with no inherent fitness pool, SO enhancements and 6 slotted Stamina and Hasten  ;D

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #99 on: March 08, 2013, 04:47:38 PM »
Anybody who works on an altertantive is better than what we have now.  Personally, however, I think going in there and stripping the server of everything "IP" (art assets, etc.) is a stupid waste of time.

If NCsoft is going to care, such surface measures aren't going to stop them.  And if they don't care, such measures only waste time and don't give the public what it wants.