Author Topic: Help out SEGS  (Read 54700 times)

Absolute

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #60 on: March 07, 2013, 06:10:05 AM »
Just a little tidbit before bedtime :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AabkNAwe_I

That doesn't even show -all- the progress.

Going to the I.D. screen, then backing to the powers menu and out gives you your powers in your tray.
You can then use commands to hit level 50 (/levelup 50) and train (/level) up with powers randomly assigned.

You can't use any powers, but apparently we've got confirmation that trying to use TP foe gives the system message that nothing is targeted.

This is even a lot further than even a week ago.

GJ SEGS

downix

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #61 on: March 07, 2013, 06:51:31 AM »
That doesn't even show -all- the progress.

Going to the I.D. screen, then backing to the powers menu and out gives you your powers in your tray.
You can then use commands to hit level 50 (/levelup 50) and train (/level) up with powers randomly assigned.

You can't use any powers, but apparently we've got confirmation that trying to use TP foe gives the system message that nothing is targeted.

This is even a lot further than even a week ago.

GJ SEGS
Has anyone tried to use that program-editor which enables ICON to work on this, to see if something could be done to further improve things by tweaking the actual game code?

Segev

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #62 on: March 07, 2013, 01:45:33 PM »
Guys, come on. Are you going to claim that Six Flags or Disney World "stole" your time and money just because you can't go back into them any time you want without paying them more? If they closed tomorrow, would you claim they had "stolen" the time and money you'd spent to go to either in the past?

What about movie theaters; are they stealing from you because you can't go back in and watch the movie again?

Yes, you emotionally invested in the game. However, you spent time and money on it. The time you spent was rewarded with the enjoyment you got for spending it, as was the money. There's some legitimate complaint that they sprang the announcement right after releasing a new power set people dumped money on, but that's about it, in terms of "theft."

Was it idiotic to kill a goose that was laying golden eggs in the form of so passionately devoted a fan base as yourselves? One willing to spend time and money on the product as long as it was offered? Oh yes. Very stupid of them.

But it wasn't theft. The only thing you might have claim on is that they've rendered your property - your copy of the game - useless. And even that's not entirely so; the projects to reverse-engineer the server to enable you to activate and use your game code, to use the costume creator, are all legal because all they do is provide the platform to run your property, and they don't utilize any of NCSoft's proprietary "stuff" on their end.

So no, this isn't stealing from you. It's a jerkish thing to do. It was a mistake from a business standpoint. But it wasn't stealing in a legal, ethical, or moral sense. And hyping ourselves into a frenzy over the idea that it was can only hurt us as a movement.

JaguarX

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #63 on: March 07, 2013, 02:56:02 PM »
Guys, come on. Are you going to claim that Six Flags or Disney World "stole" your time and money just because you can't go back into them any time you want without paying them more? If they closed tomorrow, would you claim they had "stolen" the time and money you'd spent to go to either in the past?

What about movie theaters; are they stealing from you because you can't go back in and watch the movie again?

Yes, you emotionally invested in the game. However, you spent time and money on it. The time you spent was rewarded with the enjoyment you got for spending it, as was the money. There's some legitimate complaint that they sprang the announcement right after releasing a new power set people dumped money on, but that's about it, in terms of "theft."

Was it idiotic to kill a goose that was laying golden eggs in the form of so passionately devoted a fan base as yourselves? One willing to spend time and money on the product as long as it was offered? Oh yes. Very stupid of them.

But it wasn't theft. The only thing you might have claim on is that they've rendered your property - your copy of the game - useless. And even that's not entirely so; the projects to reverse-engineer the server to enable you to activate and use your game code, to use the costume creator, are all legal because all they do is provide the platform to run your property, and they don't utilize any of NCSoft's proprietary "stuff" on their end.

So no, this isn't stealing from you. It's a jerkish thing to do. It was a mistake from a business standpoint. But it wasn't stealing in a legal, ethical, or moral sense. And hyping ourselves into a frenzy over the idea that it was can only hurt us as a movement.

hear hear.

Captain Electric

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #64 on: March 07, 2013, 03:09:37 PM »
I can't really comment concretely on the legalities of these servers, other than to say that it is my good faith belief that any compatible server developed from reverse engineering efforts that does not use the City of Heroes intellectual property (art assets, names, places, etc.) would be legal.

Except, unfortunately, it would no longer be City of Heroes.

If NCSoft is going to send a cease and desist, they'll do it regardless of these token measures. And the existence of these measures are already a signal that the team working on the server can be bullied. It does nothing to the cards in NCSoft's hand, and these preemptive concessions are like blood in the water.

I'm not saying the community server is a bad idea. I think it's a great and wonderful idea. The dev team ought to be willing to see the game go live again, even if that means dissemination of the code, and they ought to be politely clear about that for any corporate lawyers who are listening. You can't know how a publisher will behave; but you can know how you'll behave, and let it hang in the wind for anyone to see.

But stripping it of everything that characterizes the City of Heroes universe and back story will be another painful reminder for fans of the world that they've lost; and to add insult to injury in the worst case scenario, it would offer no legal protection anyway. The Freedom Phalanx, Wyvern, Longbow, Freakshow, the Fifth Column, the Menders, the Midnighters, Lord Recluse, the Praetorian War, the Coming Storm, Paragon City, the Rogue Isles, all of it will still be vanished and unresolved forever.

I am a fan of the world and universe and continuity that Paragon Studios built, not just of the great costume creator and collections of stats and game mechanics.

Segev

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #65 on: March 07, 2013, 03:35:44 PM »
Er, Captain Electric, the server didn't have all that stuff on it. Your client does. The server enables you to use your client. The server is what is being reverse-engineered.

Captain Electric

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #66 on: March 07, 2013, 03:41:36 PM »
While you're correct, that is not at all what Tony is talking about. He is talking about the effort in whole, wherein a significant amount of the IP is planned to be removed from the play experience; as you know, the server dictates what the player sees and has access to within the game, regardless of the contents of the client. This should come as no surprise to anyone. Tony has brought it up several times over the past few months and in almost every status update.

Heroette

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #67 on: March 07, 2013, 04:17:46 PM »
That video is great.  It gives me lots of hope.  I wish I had the skills to help because I have lots of free time in the evenings.  And Oh, I smiled the whole time.  That is so awesome!!!!   Go, SEGS, Go!!!!!

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #68 on: March 07, 2013, 05:28:11 PM »
Guys, come on. Are you going to claim that Six Flags or Disney World "stole" your time and money just because you can't go back into them any time you want without paying them more? If they closed tomorrow, would you claim they had "stolen" the time and money you'd spent to go to either in the past?

What contributions have we made to Disney World or Six Flags? Did you have to level up to get access to Thunder Mountain? Is your pin collection sitting in a little alcove at the Castle, waiting to be demolished?

Quote
What about movie theaters; are they stealing from you because you can't go back in and watch the movie again?

No, but there's these portable media storage things now. They go into a little machine that some people like to call home theater.

That's essentially what SEGS is. The result of a movie theater discontinuing a film, and getting the DVD to watch at home. But at any moment, NCsoft can throw a temper tantrum, tell us we're not allowed to have it, and start launching legal missiles.

And... don't even bother trying to bicker over the technical definition of "steal." I don't think anyone even said "steal." But now that we've opened that box, NCsoft would classify SEGS as stealing, even though nothing got stolen. So if we're not allowed to call it stealing when it isn't, then they're not either. Right? RIGHT?  :P

Segev

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #69 on: March 07, 2013, 05:44:46 PM »
What contributions have we made to Disney World or Six Flags? Did you have to level up to get access to Thunder Mountain? Is your pin collection sitting in a little alcove at the Castle, waiting to be demolished?
Some might argue that waiting in line for a few hours qualifies as "leveling up," or at least "grind." And if you're really pining over the badges rather than the ability to wear them on display in the game, then you still have them in your Sentinel+ extractor. But that's not really the point, as your last paragraph indicates you're responding because you think I'm telling you not to be upset rather than specifically addressing what I was responding to:
And... don't even bother trying to bicker over the technical definition of "steal." I don't think anyone even said "steal." But now that we've opened that box, NCsoft would classify SEGS as stealing, even though nothing got stolen.
I was explicitly responding to about a page worth of posts where people were saying "NCSoft has STOLEN from me" with "STOLEN" literally in all caps.

Go ahead and be upset. Just don't make hyperbolic claims of criminally immoral activity. Whether it was moral or ethical or not, it wasn't illegal, and stealing IS illegal. It wasn't legalize theft, even, philosophically; they have discontinued a service, not taken property from you that you own.

Segev

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #70 on: March 07, 2013, 05:48:40 PM »
NCsoft would classify SEGS as stealing, even though nothing got stolen. So if we're not allowed to call it stealing when it isn't, then they're not either. Right? RIGHT?  :P
Since no NCSoft IP is being used in developing it, and none is being provided to people through it (save what they bought and paid for the privilege to use, and are accessing through their own property, just using SEGS as a place to view it), no, NCSoft cannot call it "stealing." They might try, if they're feeling dickish enough, but they will likely fail.

Illusionss

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #71 on: March 07, 2013, 05:50:19 PM »
Guys, come on. Are you going to claim that Six Flags or Disney World "stole" your time and money just because you can't go back into them any time you want without paying them more? If they closed tomorrow, would you claim they had "stolen" the time and money you'd spent to go to either in the past?

Nope, because I did not spend thousands of hours leveling up to get in there. I paid a one-time fee for a one-time experience and that is what I got, and was expected.

Quote
What about movie theaters; are they stealing from you because you can't go back in and watch the movie again?

I don't NEED to go back to the theatre, because the movie studio kindly sells me a little copy on a disk that I can keep at my house forever. I can watch it anytime I want. I in fact PREFER to watch movies at my house.

Quote
So no, this isn't stealing from you. It's a jerkish thing to do. It was a mistake from a business standpoint. But it wasn't stealing in a legal, ethical, or moral sense. And hyping ourselves into a frenzy over the idea that it was can only hurt us as a movement.

I dont see it as hyping ourselves into a frenzy; I see it as a realization that MMORPGs are a dangerous way to spend one's time -  because all your work can vanish in a moment. I cant speak for others; but this realization has had a vastly chilling effect on my entertainment behavior. I have not logged in to GW2 in weeks. Every time I do I cannot enjoy the game, becasue I know the Idiocracy could pull the plug anytime. Once bitten.

So I dont enjoy my time there; I just log into Colonial Marines instead. I am new to the FPS style of gameplay and am having to learn how to actually AIM, and how not to lose my cool when multiple targets are closing on me. Its harder than it sounds.... and I dont have to think about CoX as I struggle to become proficient. At which point I will tackle the Dead Space series, which looks even more nerve-wracking. I am trying to not lets my skills, such as they are rust while I wait for SEGs and Plan Z.

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #72 on: March 07, 2013, 05:52:58 PM »
Some might argue that waiting in line for a few hours qualifies as "leveling up," or at least "grind." And if you're really pining over the badges rather than the ability to wear them on display in the game, then you still have them in your Sentinel+ extractor. But that's not really the point, as your last paragraph indicates you're responding because you think I'm telling you not to be upset rather than specifically addressing what I was responding to:I was explicitly responding to about a page worth of posts where people were saying "NCSoft has STOLEN from me" with "STOLEN" literally in all caps.

Go ahead and be upset. Just don't make hyperbolic claims of criminally immoral activity. Whether it was moral or ethical or not, it wasn't illegal, and stealing IS illegal. It wasn't legalize theft, even, philosophically; they have discontinued a service, not taken property from you that you own.

Sorry. Nothing was quoted, and we'd kinda moved on to the more general media EULA discussion, so I could only assume that's what it was in response to.

Frankly, I'm very thankful for the Sentinel. Even in its encrypted format, it's almost a spiritual-ish comfort that I still possess the data in some form.

And yeah, it wasn't theft. Usually when it comes to what is LEGALLY considered stealing though, I'll refer to it as theft. Legal "Stealing" happens everywhere, every day.

Since no NCSoft IP is being used in developing it, and none is being provided to people through it (save what they bought and paid for the privilege to use, and are accessing through their own property, just using SEGS as a place to view it), no, NCSoft cannot call it "stealing." They might try, if they're feeling dickish enough, but they will likely fail.

Well, maybe. Depends on if the issue turned into a trial. I don't know what it's like elsewhere, but in America, at least, before any lawyers start giving their side of the story, the difference between guilty and innocent is whether or not you can afford to even get into the courtroom to defend yourself. In any David vs. Goliath case (which a gamer or gamers vs. NCsoft surely would be) Goliath usually wins. They can financially run you dry before anyone has even made an opening statement.

Illusionss

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #73 on: March 07, 2013, 05:56:18 PM »
Go ahead and be upset. Just don't make hyperbolic claims of criminally immoral activity. Whether it was moral or ethical or not, it wasn't illegal, and stealing IS illegal. It wasn't legalize theft, even, philosophically; they have discontinued a service, not taken property from you that you own.

Um, they did indeed take my characters away from me... including my main who as I detailed earlier in the thread, is worth $8800+ to me.

If this stuff was not worth real-world cash, we would not have had people selling their accounts on eBay. Our characters are real-world assets.

Lightslinger

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #74 on: March 07, 2013, 06:13:08 PM »
All this does bring a point that I think we need to spread across the net in a better way. Stop painting NCsoft as cartoonishly evil, they made a business decision. Companies make those right and wrong everyday. What we need to be discussing is the idea of mortality NCsoft has made very apparent to the MMO industry.

Even if your game is doing well it can be taken from you as quickly as a company wants to "refocus". All your time, all your money spent in the cash shop, all of it can be instantly gone. No other game medium has experienced this before and its time MMO players and developers start talking about it. As the "cash shop" business model has become standard, how can we be asked to invest so much into your game with no guarantee you'll keep it running for us?

This is something I think could get some traction. Get some articles written on some high profile sites discussing this topic. This could bring us back into the light without looking like spoiled, spurned gamers screaming "WE HAET NCSTUPID".

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #75 on: March 07, 2013, 06:18:15 PM »
This is something I think could get some traction. Get some articles written on some high profile sites discussing this topic. This could bring us back into the light without looking like spoiled, spurned gamers screaming "WE HAET NCSTUPID".

There's been some discussion about this before. The only reason I think it hasn't taken off yet is there's still a CoH campaign happening and we didn't want to spread ourselves too thin. But yeah, I certainly think we can make a strong case that some kind of legal 'code of ethics' needs to be put in place. The concept of property is in a shambles right now thanks to the digital world, and giving EULA's to people for every tiny thing they purchase is utterly ridiculous. We seem to have entered a world where nothing is ever owned, only rented/borrowed.

Noyjitat

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #76 on: March 07, 2013, 08:26:29 PM »
Guys, come on. Are you going to claim that Six Flags or Disney World "stole" your time and money just because you can't go back into them any time you want without paying them more? If they closed tomorrow, would you claim they had "stolen" the time and money you'd spent to go to either in the past?

What about movie theaters; are they stealing from you because you can't go back in and watch the movie again?

Yes, you emotionally invested in the game. However, you spent time and money on it. The time you spent was rewarded with the enjoyment you got for spending it, as was the money. There's some legitimate complaint that they sprang the announcement right after releasing a new power set people dumped money on, but that's about it, in terms of "theft."

Was it idiotic to kill a goose that was laying golden eggs in the form of so passionately devoted a fan base as yourselves? One willing to spend time and money on the product as long as it was offered? Oh yes. Very stupid of them.

But it wasn't theft. The only thing you might have claim on is that they've rendered your property - your copy of the game - useless. And even that's not entirely so; the projects to reverse-engineer the server to enable you to activate and use your game code, to use the costume creator, are all legal because all they do is provide the platform to run your property, and they don't utilize any of NCSoft's proprietary "stuff" on their end.

So no, this isn't stealing from you. It's a jerkish thing to do. It was a mistake from a business standpoint. But it wasn't stealing in a legal, ethical, or moral sense. And hyping ourselves into a frenzy over the idea that it was can only hurt us as a movement.
The examples provided flaw your logic.

DarkCurrent

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #77 on: March 08, 2013, 12:17:02 AM »
Severely.

Purchasing 3 box sets with DVDs storing game code doesn't equate to buying a movie.  It's like buying an ebook and then Amazon shuts down the Kindle and says I can't read my ebook on another eReader.  Or like purchasing a digital copy of a movie and then Apple discontinues the iPad and says I can't watch on another tablet.

That would never happen in those industries so why is it okay for an MMO company to do the same thing?

Aggelakis

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #78 on: March 08, 2013, 12:21:20 AM »
Severely.

Purchasing 3 box sets with DVDs storing game code doesn't equate to buying a movie.  It's like buying an ebook and then Amazon shuts down the Kindle and says I can't read my ebook on another eReader.  Or like purchasing a digital copy of a movie and then Apple discontinues the iPad and says I can't watch on another tablet.

That would never happen in those industries so why is it okay for an MMO company to do the same thing?
Those are still not very good. More like buying an ebook from Amazon that requires proprietary Amazon access to read, then Amazon shuts down their ebook access. Since it's proprietary software, you can't read it elsewhere but someone might be able to reverse engineer the ability to read it with the original access (or a facsimile thereof).
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DarkCurrent

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #79 on: March 08, 2013, 12:26:26 AM »
I'm separating the purchase of the disks (hypothetical ebooks) from the monthly fee to access servers (your proprietary ereader platform).  Shutting down the server (platform) shouldn't prevent me from playing my disks (books).  I believe that to be illegal.