Ko's Twitter 'Rant' About #COH, #SaveCOH, and What the Community is Becoming...

[NecrotechMaster]

How does all of that relate to writing your speech? Or, writing anything for that matter.

I never practiced my presentations, but I did write everything down that I was going to talk about.
I put them in order, and put down the main points. Much like I did for the presentation slides, just more of of it.

My problem was never going long with a speech. Just the opposite. Same with my essays and papers.
I seem to be able to get all the pertinent information across in about half the pages that most everyone else did.
I got lower grades a few times because of that. But, I just find it very difficult to pad an informational paper with fluff, and I hate to repeat myself in a paper.

i always had that problem too, i hated papers that required x amount of pages because i knew i would have to throw in a lot of extra BS to hit the minimum

[Segev]

I used to hate essays. Not because I was bad at them, but because I knew they were largely a waste of my time. I got As on them because I could BS my way through them while barely engaging my brain and only having skimmed listening to the teacher's views on whatever the subject was. I rarely actually read the (atrociously boring) novels that were "high art" to my High School English teachers; most of the time, they were more interested in the (not-political-at-all-honest) "point" of them, and would "interpret" them at length to make sure we had our minds right about the wisdom inherent in the words.

So I'd regurgitate that in proper American English prose, and get an A.

Annoyed the heck out of me, because it meant there was no point to actually understanding the work; it was a test of whether you agreed with (or could remember) the teacher's self-important view of their own analysis.

(I did have one honestly good English teacher in high school. Not all of them are as bad as I paint here. But too many of them are. ...I won't even get started on poetry units and why I wrote a protest poem during the inevitable "write a poem" assignment in my Junior year.)

[eabrace]

...I won't even get started on poetry units and why I wrote a protest poem during the inevitable "write a poem" assignment in my Junior year.

In our AP Lit class, we had a group of guys that spent more time in the computer lab than they did anywhere else.  When we had to write poems, they took a few well-known examples from some very well-known authors, picked apart the pattern of nouns, verb, adjectives, etc. in each and wrote a program to randomly substitute words and write their poems for them.  They didn't reveal any of that to our teacher until after they'd all been given A's on the assignment.  Fortunately, she was a good sport and found all of that amusing, so she let them keep the grades.

[Arcana]

I used to hate essays. Not because I was bad at them, but because I knew they were largely a waste of my time. I got As on them because I could BS my way through them while barely engaging my brain and only having skimmed listening to the teacher's views on whatever the subject was. I rarely actually read the (atrociously boring) novels that were "high art" to my High School English teachers; most of the time, they were more interested in the (not-political-at-all-honest) "point" of them, and would "interpret" them at length to make sure we had our minds right about the wisdom inherent in the words.

So I'd regurgitate that in proper American English prose, and get an A.

Annoyed the heck out of me, because it meant there was no point to actually understanding the work; it was a test of whether you agreed with (or could remember) the teacher's self-important view of their own analysis.

(I did have one honestly good English teacher in high school. Not all of them are as bad as I paint here. But too many of them are. ...I won't even get started on poetry units and why I wrote a protest poem during the inevitable "write a poem" assignment in my Junior year.)

True story: I passed a freshman college level English course writing essays about five required reading books I hadn't actually read.  Got a B-.  I don't recommend it, but that was a weird semester for me.  Somehow through a computer error I ended up registered for seven classes and I missed the drop date to adjust my schedule.

Honestly, the problem is that its very difficult to tell the difference between earnest work from students who honestly have not been properly prepared for college and bullshit from someone with a lot of general knowledge and an overabundance of eloquence.

More than half the professional writing I encounter I would consider proof of illiteracy.  This has real consequences.  For example, as most people with experience in them will tell you, in most standardized certification exams you have to presume a certain amount of questions will be lost due to the question being worded in a way that makes it impossible to answer on its face, and impossible to determine with certainty what the intent was.

I had a question last year which asked, basically, "what are the implicit requirements for X" and the answer options were all requirements listed explicitly as requirements.  I later found out based on looking at sample tests with alternate questions that the most likely error was that the test writer meant what are the immediate requirements for X.  Which still makes no sense, but in the context of other questions suggested an answer: one of the options was a prerequisite for installation while the others were supported recommendations that did not prevent installation.

While quibbling over grammar minutia is silly, the notion that linguistic accuracy and precision isn't important is a luxury only afforded to people who live in environments where nobody cares what they say or hear.

Communication is a cooperation (which is why I have such revulsion towards the deconstructive concept of Death of Author) between expression and comprehension: speaker and listener, writer and reader.  If the writer doesn't try hard enough to convey, they can't expect the reader to understand.  But contrawise, if listeners and readers fail to consciously engage in listening and reading they leave themselves open to speakers and writers that sound superficially interesting but convey nothing.

[eabrace]

More than half the professional writing I encounter I would consider proof of illiteracy.

Things I have actually written in comments during formal documentation reviews:

"I have no idea what this is trying to say.  It's written in some form of jumbled English that doesn't make any sense."

"Left my gibberish to English dictionary at home today.  What are they trying to say here?"

The first one was from a document written by a guy that was a genius programmer, but couldn't document a clear set of requirements for finding his way out of a paper bag.  I think he was trying object-orient his text or something.  We ended up trading tasks:  I wrote the documentation he was working on and he took over writing the code on which I was getting nowhere fast.  Things worked out much better that way.

[Twisted Toon]

While quibbling over grammar minutia is silly, the notion that linguistic accuracy and precision isn't important is a luxury only afforded to people who live in environments where nobody cares what they say or hear.

Sounds like the internet, for the most part. :P

I had a question last year which asked, basically, "what are the implicit requirements for X" and the answer options were all requirements listed explicitly as requirements.  I later found out based on looking at sample tests with alternate questions that the most likely error was that the test writer meant what are the immediate requirements for X.  Which still makes no sense, but in the context of other questions suggested an answer: one of the options was a prerequisite for installation while the others were supported recommendations that did not prevent installation.

I have had to take "personality" tests for some of the jobs I've held in the past. I can understand the reason that some companies would use them. Unfortunately, some of the questions are rather vague, and incriminating no matter how you read them. I really wish I could leave notes next to each of the questions that I have issues with. Unfortunately, that would mean I'd be leaving little notes next to about 90% of the questions. And they don't give me that much space for note writing.

[JaguarX]

Sounds like the internet, for the most part. :P

Yup.

Although only time grammar becomes super important is when a person feel they are losing a discussion and cant think of anything creative to say so they they try to attack the grammar and spelling which although are errors usually have no bearing on the message. It's especially funny when one tried to turn into a grammar nazi but make mistakes themselves while trying to correct someone else.

And note before some someone gets it's twisted and think I'm saying that grammar is not important, I'm clearing this up now so they cant say that is what I'm saying, insinuating, or that is what I mean. I am not saying that at all. But as stated, communication is two way street. If the reader cant comprehend the message due to very minor mistakes then it sounds like the reader should ask for clearification. But if they can comprehend enough to make the proper mistakes, which means they know the meaning of the messages enough to know what is supposed to be there instead of the error, then the message have been portrayed which is why I think most people that correct people's grammar on the internet is doing it merely to be a pancake and start a flame post.


Good ol' internet. People act too funny to be taken seriously.

[Terwyn]

I wrote a sonnet, was told that I honestly didn't need to learn what the class was teaching, and was offered an opportunity: Do whatever I want in the classroom during class time so long as it was writing, and the teacher would take that instead of any given assignment.

Apparently being able to pull a full sonnet together within twenty minutes of being initially introduced to the concept is impressive?

[Samuraiko]

At the U of Arizona, to take upper-level writing courses, students have to take an exam known as the UDWPE (Upper Division Writing Proficiency Exam). It's a Pass/Fail/Superior scoring (or at least it was when I took it), and is almost ridiculously simple for anyone with half a brain. I took it while stoned on cold medication, got my P, and was satisfied.

Later on in my undergrad career, I enrolled in an upper-level writing course where my professor INSISTED that we must write drafts of our papers prior to submission.

I don't do drafts. And since I had a full load of classes and then some, I was not about to waste my time doing my papers multiple times. (Especially since by then I was working as a freelance editor - I can count on one hand the number of spelling mistakes I've made in my academic papers.) So I went to the professor and argued that I was not going to do drafts just for him.

He asked for proof. I handed him my UDWPE test results and said, "The university thinks I know how to write. Therefore I shouldn't have to prove it to you."

I was the only student in the class exempt from drafts.

At the end of the semester, our assignment was: "Choosing a Greco/Roman myth that has NOT been covered in this class, write it in the style of the Greco/Roman author of your choice." I chose to re-tell the story of "The Judgment of Paris" in the style of Aristophanes. Including stage directions. (And it was, as always, a first and only draft.) The professor loved it so much, he requested permission to include it in future classes.

I love being right.

Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite

[Terwyn]

At the U of Arizona, to take upper-level writing courses, students have to take an exam known as the UDWPE (Upper Division Writing Proficiency Exam). It's a Pass/Fail/Superior scoring (or at least it was when I took it), and is almost ridiculously simple for anyone with half a brain. I took it while stoned on cold medication, got my P, and was satisfied.

Later on in my undergrad career, I enrolled in an upper-level writing course where my professor INSISTED that we must write drafts of our papers prior to submission.

I don't do drafts. And since I had a full load of classes and then some, I was not about to waste my time doing my papers multiple times. (Especially since by then I was working as a freelance editor - I can count on one hand the number of spelling mistakes I've made in my academic papers.) So I went to the professor and argued that I was not going to do drafts just for him.

He asked for proof. I handed him my UDWPE test results and said, "The university thinks I know how to write. Therefore I shouldn't have to prove it to you."

I was the only student in the class exempt from drafts.

At the end of the semester, our assignment was: "Choosing a Greco/Roman myth that has NOT been covered in this class, write it in the style of the Greco/Roman author of your choice." I chose to re-tell the story of "The Judgment of Paris" in the style of Aristophanes. Including stage directions. (And it was, as always, a first and only draft.) The professor loved it so much, he requested permission to include it in future classes.

I love being right.

Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite

I did a comparative mythology course as my elective, and one of our assignments was similar - write a "new" myth in the style of one of the cultures covered. So I wrote a Greco/Roman style myth to explain the colour of the sunset in a Norse style. I got extra marks for showing off language skills by using terms both classical Latin and Old Norse. Wish I could find a copy of it.

But I think the pinnacle of my writing efforts came as a result of a professor, whom I had a class with every semester of my enrolment, wanting proof that I was the one who wrote the paper that had been handed in with my name, because all of the papers that I'd written had several of the same basic mistakes, and this one not only lacked those errors, had an extremely divergent use of language. Or in other words, a large boost in quality.

I'd gone from "Bored Academic" to "Masterful Storyteller" in as little as five months. I can fully attribute my involvement in the school's major drama production for the change, because I took responsibility for my own education, after spending two and a half years only doing it because I'd started doing it, and was obviously expected to finish. Or in other words, a self-inflicted barrier interfering with my ability to effectively use my own intelligence was torn down.

I shall forever remember the reaction of my professor when he realized what I had managed to do, as the advice he gave me has allowed me to do things I didn't think possible. It is rare for a teacher to succeed in the goal of making a student actually want to learn, let alone making a student want to help others learn. This professor did more than that. He made me understand.

[Kuriositys Kat]

I did a comparative mythology course as my elective, and one of our assignments was similar - write a "new" myth in the style of one of the cultures covered. So I wrote a Greco/Roman style myth to explain the colour of the sunset in a Norse style. I got extra marks for showing off language skills by using terms both classical Latin and Old Norse. Wish I could find a copy of it.

But I think the pinnacle of my writing efforts came as a result of a professor, whom I had a class with every semester of my enrolment, wanting proof that I was the one who wrote the paper that had been handed in with my name, because all of the papers that I'd written had several of the same basic mistakes, and this one not only lacked those errors, had an extremely divergent use of language. Or in other words, a large boost in quality.

I'd gone from "Bored Academic" to "Masterful Storyteller" in as little as five months. I can fully attribute my involvement in the school's major drama production for the change, because I took responsibility for my own education, after spending two and a half years only doing it because I'd started doing it, and was obviously expected to finish. Or in other words, a self-inflicted barrier interfering with my ability to effectively use my own intelligence was torn down.

I shall forever remember the reaction of my professor when he realized what I had managed to do, as the advice he gave me has allowed me to do things I didn't think possible. It is rare for a teacher to succeed in the goal of making a student actually want to learn, let alone making a student want to help others learn. This professor did more than that. He made me understand.

I most sincerely hope the poor man didn't have a drastic collapse!  He is PROOF that a Great teacher can do more than they think they do for students.  As such they are far more precious then platinum.

[Twisted Toon]

I most sincerely hope the poor man didn't have a drastic collapse!  He is PROOF that a Great teacher can do more than they think they do for students.  As such they are far more precious then platinum.

A great teacher can only go so far though. The student(s) have to have a willingness to learn. Some students are almost aggressive in their willingness not to learn.

[Terwyn]

I most sincerely hope the poor man didn't have a drastic collapse!  He is PROOF that a Great teacher can do more than they think they do for students.  As such they are far more precious then platinum.

And I have had three of them. Strangely, the two most recent were both from the same area of Nigeria, but were entirely unrelated aside from initial tribal affiliation. There is a reason why I seek a career in education, and it was these three men who started me on that path.

[Taceus Jiwede]

I have had to take "personality" tests for some of the jobs I've held in the past. I can understand the reason that some companies would use them. Unfortunately, some of the questions are rather vague, and incriminating no matter how you read them. I really wish I could leave notes next to each of the questions that I have issues with. Unfortunately, that would mean I'd be leaving little notes next to about 90% of the questions. And they don't give me that much space for note writing.

I hate those things.  I remember one I took said "Do you regret the bad decisions you have made"  That is a completely loaded question.  To answer it one way shows you have a complete disregard for others, while the other answers makes you sound like a habitual screw up that is aware of it.

A great teacher can only go so far though. The student(s) have to have a willingness to learn. Some students are almost aggressive in their willingness not to learn.

I am not a great teacher by any means, but I am not a terrible one either.  I teach the piano and guitar and I can tell you right now I have some students that on a week by week basis sky rocket, I have seen students do things I didn't think they would be able to do for a few months, in 2 weeks.  And I have had students that are stuck on the same lesson plan for 3-4 months before finally they/the parent, depending on age, stops paying me to hangout/babysit(Which is cool with me, I do my job its up to the student to learn.)

The thing I find amazing is how it is generally my fault when they don't practice apparently.  Which is the worst, I hate preparing for lessons I know are going to be exactly the same plan as last week with no improvement, and then being told I am a bad teacher cause they didn't practice.

[Samuraiko]

Oh, I love personality tests at work. I have found them to be a wonderful way of CONVINCING my bosses why they were right to hire me.

"Are you aware how this is a loaded question? When phrased this way, it means one thing - phrased this way, it means something else. Ambiguity in language is a terrible thing in technical documentation - which is why I try to make sure my stuff doesn't look like this."

Then there was the time that my entire department took the Meyer-Briggs... the entire group was INTJ. Except for me. I was ENFP. Talk about the exact opposite. And yet, they were thrilled because they said I kept them on their toes. :)

Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite

[Illusionss]

More than half the professional writing I encounter I would consider proof of illiteracy.  This has real consequences.  For example, as most people with experience in them will tell you, in most standardized certification exams you have to presume a certain amount of questions will be lost due to the question being worded in a way that makes it impossible to answer on its face, and impossible to determine with certainty what the intent was.

I remember the time I took a test in Anatomy and Physiology 1 and the "correct" answer to one question, according to the person who created the test was "insulin serves as fat storage for the body."

BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA, yes they had to retract that one because the student body nearly staged a revolution. I would have been holding the lead pitchfork.

[Arcana]

On the subject of personality tests:  Back in the 80s it was common for Dianetics aka Scientologists to ask people in public to take them for some vague generic stated purpose or other (of course, it was for recruiting), and it wasn't as much common knowledge then as now what the gist of it was.  So I didn't have a lot of knowledge of Dianetics/Scientology, but I did dislike a) being solicited in public and b) being tested.  So one day I decided to "volunteer" to take their test.  And I studied the test very carefully to see what the questions were aiming for.  And I specifically answered the questions in such a way that a) the answers passed their validation screening and yet b) put me dead center in every category.

I can still remember the person who administered the test looking over the scores and telling me that I was ... and then couldn't find anything I was.

But I have to say that even when I take these tests honestly, I find myself genuinely struggling to justify specific slants in one direction or the other.  Take Meyer-Briggs.  Here's one test's set of possible criteria for Extrovert/Introvert:

Extraverted Characteristics:

    Act first, think/reflect later
    Feel deprived when cutoff from interaction with the outside world
    Usually open to and motivated by outside world of people and things
    Enjoy wide variety and change in people relationships

Introverted Characteristics:

    Think/reflect first, then Act
    Regularly require an amount of "private time" to recharge batteries
    Motivated internally, mind is sometimes so active it is "closed" to outside world
    Prefer one-to-one communication and relationships

So: think first act second, or act first think second?  Hard to say.  I think a lot, about lots of things.  But then when confronted with a decision, I generally make snap decisions more often than dwell on them.  And then I review the decision afterwards and factor that into the next time I have to make a decision.  Clearly, I do a lot of thinking ahead of time.  But not about specific decisions.  Does it count if I think a lot about a general topic and then make snap decisions about that topic?  Or does that count as act first think second?  What about the reflection I do afterwards, that often forms the basis of my next decision?

Or how about open to and motivated by outside world, or motivated internally and being closed to outside world?  Well, I'm neither: I think internally *and* interact externally usually simultaneously.  I'm more of a multitasker in that sense and I also prefer it that way.  I'm never so internally active I'm closed to the outside world.  But I'm never driven by the external world either.

Here is me in a nutshell.  Do I like being hot or cold?  Well, what I like most of all is the feeling you get when you've been in a very cold room for a very long time, and then you walk outside into the very hot sun.  Those few seconds when you are cold but feeling the outside warmth is to me one of the best feelings in the world.  I like being warmed.  But I hate hate hate being warm.  I'd much rather be cool.  So hate warm, like cool, love cool but being warmed.  And that option is never on the test.

[JaguarX]

On the subject of personality tests:  Back in the 80s it was common for Dianetics aka Scientologists to ask people in public to take them for some vague generic stated purpose or other (of course, it was for recruiting), and it wasn't as much common knowledge then as now what the gist of it was.  So I didn't have a lot of knowledge of Dianetics/Scientology, but I did dislike a) being solicited in public and b) being tested.  So one day I decided to "volunteer" to take their test.  And I studied the test very carefully to see what the questions were aiming for.  And I specifically answered the questions in such a way that a) the answers passed their validation screening and yet b) put me dead center in every category.

I can still remember the person who administered the test looking over the scores and telling me that I was ... and then couldn't find anything I was.

But I have to say that even when I take these tests honestly, I find myself genuinely struggling to justify specific slants in one direction or the other.  Take Meyer-Briggs.  Here's one test's set of possible criteria for Extrovert/Introvert:

Extraverted Characteristics:

    Act first, think/reflect later
    Feel deprived when cutoff from interaction with the outside world
    Usually open to and motivated by outside world of people and things
    Enjoy wide variety and change in people relationships

Introverted Characteristics:

    Think/reflect first, then Act
    Regularly require an amount of "private time" to recharge batteries
    Motivated internally, mind is sometimes so active it is "closed" to outside world
    Prefer one-to-one communication and relationships

So: think first act second, or act first think second?  Hard to say.  I think a lot, about lots of things.  But then when confronted with a decision, I generally make snap decisions more often than dwell on them.  And then I review the decision afterwards and factor that into the next time I have to make a decision.  Clearly, I do a lot of thinking ahead of time.  But not about specific decisions.  Does it count if I think a lot about a general topic and then make snap decisions about that topic?  Or does that count as act first think second?  What about the reflection I do afterwards, that often forms the basis of my next decision?

Or how about open to and motivated by outside world, or motivated internally and being closed to outside world?  Well, I'm neither: I think internally *and* interact externally usually simultaneously.  I'm more of a multitasker in that sense and I also prefer it that way.  I'm never so internally active I'm closed to the outside world.  But I'm never driven by the external world either.

Here is me in a nutshell.  Do I like being hot or cold?  Well, what I like most of all is the feeling you get when you've been in a very cold room for a very long time, and then you walk outside into the very hot sun.  Those few seconds when you are cold but feeling the outside warmth is to me one of the best feelings in the world.  I like being warmed.  But I hate hate hate being warm.  I'd much rather be cool.  So hate warm, like cool, love cool but being warmed.  And that option is never on the test.

Yeah, dont think there a solid conrete this or that personality for most people. Only a small number actually fall in absolute side. I'm more introverted than extroverted and some of the book characteristics describe me to pin point accuracy. Like, I MUST have time to be alone and time to myself to recharge my batteries or else I will have a social overload and withdraw, literally at times for days (usually call of work. Gain so many leave days that I can take about 2 days off a month and still have the same amount of leave days as I started with by the next month). And I tend to think first before action but also evolved to a point where even though I think first before action it dont affect the speed of decisions much (Thanks in part to the military.). My brain just go into hyperdrive mode or as people who watch me "crazy eyed" mode lol as I apparently make this face that reminds them of a serial killer. But in the military ya have to think fast and be accurate with the decison, so that was great practice. And of course one on one communication, which is why I avoid night clubs and prefer lounges. On the other hand I dont mind haveing a bunch of friends or talking to people and dont mind that type of interaction. I know some people who seem to have their phone surgically attached to their ear as I never see them without it being pressed to their ear, while me I'll call people from time to time but majority of the time my phone is sittign around collecting dust. But truely I'm an introvert and just about every test I took and I took many of them, always fall into the introvert category. Might explain why I treat text messages as I would an answering machine of getting back to them when I get to them instead of "OMG! They texted me. I must call them right now!!"  And get slight annoyed at the text of "did you get my text? Why are you not responding" one minute after they sent it while I'm still trying to type. I'm like, hold ya horses. if it was that important, you should have just called me. As people keep telling me, "*Jag*, not every social interaction is a chess game. Say something already."

Sometimes I think though am I too introverted, while I enjoy people's company and socializing, I can never think of a time where I actually missed it. It's like ice cream that I like. It's good to have when available but can live without it. Althoug havent tested that theory since 19 the time I spent a record withotu interacting with people even at work. They thought I was a zombie. They was whispering thinking I didnt hear them. So after about two months of not talking, interacting with people, I finally one day came to work and said "Braaaaaaaaaaaaiiiins." The look on their face was priceless, especially given it was the first words I ever said to them. Hell I didnt speak to anyone at all between 2nd grade and 6th grade. So long that even my parents thought I went mute. Grades suffered a bit in classes that was graded by class participation. I guess I always been an introvert.

[Arcana]

I spent a record withotu interacting with people even at work. They thought I was a zombie. They was whispering thinking I didnt hear them. So after about two months of not talking, interacting with people, I finally one day came to work and said "Braaaaaaaaaaaaiiiins." The look on their face was priceless, especially given it was the first words I ever said to them.
...
I guess I always been an introvert.

Err... I don't think I would be calling a coworker that did that an introvert.

[Chrome]

This got a chuckle of me because I don't care what others do with their money, but NCSoft will never get any of mine again.