To team or not to team?

[CG]

I played CoH from about when it came out and I loved the easy teams.  After CoH, I tried World of Warcraft and teaming was such a pain to get going.  I never put much thought into why, but just accepted; WoW was my second MMO so I didn't put a lot of critical thought into it.  Different game, different rules.

Today, I was playing Champions Online and it suddenly hit me.  Probably because of the juxtaposition of a Super Hero MMO, which I expect easy teaming and "quests" which were in WoW. It might be that this is already well known, but I'm going to articulate it here for comment.

• City of Heroes let you complete other people's quests with them and get full rewards.  Most Questgiver systems out there put you on a chain and while someone can help you kill 6 Giant Rats, they don't get Xp from handing it back in.  This is a barrier to teaming.  If I need to do/have already done a quest, I have little motivation to go help a stranger.  I'm actually losing out on my own questing XP by doing so.  This is a disincentive.  I realize that there are altruistic players out there, but I think it really does have an effect on the general player base
• Instanced missions.  This lets people join you in an isolated environment where you're not competing with other players (that are not on your team) for resources.  Everyone in the instance is collecting resources (glowies, arresting mobs) for the group.  This is an incentive to work together.
• Larger teams make for more epic experiences.  It also makes for easier teams because there's usally room for one more
• Sidekicking/exemplaring.  This was sorely lacking in WoW where it was another disincentive for toons with a >5 level difference to join up.  Neither got Xp and one of them was vastly over/under powered.  It felt like you were slumming when you were helping someone lower level out; the game didn't reward you at all for this.  When I started CoH, it was one sidekick per person witch made it a little trickier because you had to pair up a high level with a low level toon.  The later change for the missions leader being the "main" and everyone else adapting to their level was brilliant.  Yet another change that broke down the barriers to teaming
• Lack of loot.  Or at least a lack of common loot that you had to need/greed/share/ninja.  If there was an individual random drop, nobody else knew you got it and there was no group roll off.  If there was a team reward, everyone got it (Merits/Hami-O/etc).  Again, this meant you could be less picky about who you brought with you because unless they were pulling all the mobs in the instance to the team, there wasn't a whole lot they could do to mess things up.  Another incentive to team.
• No Holy Trinity.  In CoH, you could take any mix of classes and do just fine.  Again, this makes teaming easier because you don't need a competent Tank/Healer to prevent repeated wipes.  Another incentive to team.  Often we had fun trying to figure out what our group's strategy would be given the team members we had at the moment.  It usually didn't take long to find something that worked.

What I noticed in Champions Online was the main chat is full of items for sale, whereas CoH was filled with team requests.  I couldn't put my finger on why at the moment, but everything crystallized for me today.

If you're still with me, the reason I'm posting this is that I hope the Plan Z options will include the aspects of CoH that incentivized teaming and leave out the aspects of WoW or CO that disincentivized teaming. I think the ease of teaming made for a more relaxed gaming environment which allowed the community to blossom.  You could work with almost anyone in a mission and you didn't have to be wary about whether the other player was be trying to pull a fast one.   

tl;dr: Teamwork in game was the source of goodness from which everything else flowed.

[Cobra Man]

I've had pretty much the same experience when I've been playing The Secret War.

The game looks wonderful but the teaming mechanic is pretty poor.

In addition the game 'dungeons' appear to hinge on having the usual old hack 'Holy Trinity' thing in place.

CoH had the perfect teaming system, and quite why other games can't emulate or even replicate it is puzzling.

[JaguarX]

CoH had the perfect teaming system, and quite why other games can't emulate or even replicate it is puzzling.

That is a good question there.

COH had a good teaming system for those interested in teaming and games that placed great emphasis on teaming.

Then again not everyone is interested in that much teaming or emphasis on teaming as much as COX placed emphasis on it.

[corvus1970]

Then again not everyone is interested in that much teaming or emphasis on teaming as much as COX placed emphasis on it.

While CoX highlighted teaming and made it very easy, you make it sound as if the game peer-pressured you into teaming with its "emphasis", and I feel that's misleading.

For those not interested in teaming, you could solo, and do so rather easily, especially with the advent of radio-missions. As the game got older, soloing became easier and easier, a move which benefits the casual gamer.

[tigerbaby]

While CoX highlighted teaming and made it very easy, you make it sound as if the game peer-pressured you into teaming with its "emphasis", and I feel that's misleding.

For those not interested in teaming, you could solo, and do so rather easily, especially with the advent of radio-missions. As the game got older, soloing became easier and easier, a move which benefits the casual gamer.

In fact, soloing was in many ways an equally rich and rewarding playstyle in CoH, as it allowed me to read through the mission text at leisure and fully engage with the storyline; this was particularly true of the post-50 content and the signature arcs.  CoH was the game that answered 'NO!' to the question 'is it too much to ask for both?' with regards to teaming vs. solo play.  The only downside of this was people who played exclusively one way or the other 'missed out' on the pleasures of each, and the obvious care the dev team took to assure both playstyles were not only viable, but enjoyable.

[corvus1970]

Exactly! I feel that CoX gave us a great gaming experience whether we were teamed, or just hopping on to solo for an hour or two.

[tigerbaby]

As well as the solo 'meta-game' components, like badge-hunting, fiddling with Inventions, buying/selling on the MP, tinkering with bases or the Mission Architect, repeating old favourite or missed missions in Ouroboros...you didn't 'have' to do any of these, but they were a fun change of pace.

[dwturducken]

I did feel as though the highest levels were much more easily reached with a team, just for the amount of XP per level required. I only had one character at 50, and that was mostly because, about once a month, we would set that as our goal for the night. We would team specifically to level someone's highest character, particularly if that character was in the high 40s. I know that there are people, possibly even in this thread, who soloed to 50, and that was always a goal of mine, but it's an aspect that is absent from any other game. I have a character in the high 30s in WoW (about once a year, I buy a time card) that I have no illusions about ever reaching level 90, because the expansions are all pay. That's a bit more of an investment than I'm really ready to make for such a "casual" game.

[JaguarX]

While CoX highlighted teaming and made it very easy, you make it sound as if the game peer-pressured you into teaming with its "emphasis", and I feel that's misleading.

For those not interested in teaming, you could solo, and do so rather easily, especially with the advent of radio-missions. As the game got older, soloing became easier and easier, a move which benefits the casual gamer.

\

I dont know. Felt kind of punished for teaming. When you team, you get nice xp bonus for doing so. Soloing, while possible up to the extent, a soloist was basically locked out of a lot of the good storyline content. TF/SF/Trials-things that were the meat of the storyline of the game required teams. Yea you can solo a random, non-storyline paper mish here and there but all in all, the good storylines seemed to required teaming, and given the bonuses and speed of leveling compared to soloing it seemed like the game favored teaming. Not to mention the incarnate stuff which definately seemed to favor teaming compared to soloing.

I felt, DO NOT MISS THE KEYWORDS- I felt, that soloist were punished for soloing in COX and or teaming was very much encouraged and if you didnt team there was no love for you. You get the good stuff only by teaming, i'e the xp bonus that teams get, the relative good rate of incarnate stuff, even purple IOs was very hard to come by solo compared to doing certain TF/SF/Trials. The soloist was basically left out i nthe cold with incentives that seemed to favor only teams.  Not to mention certain AT was an uphill battle to solo, further limiting soloists to certain builds and power sets,


Now compared to CO, a soloist is not punished. Yo ucan do most of the content easily solo without if feeling like slower paced because of some huge bonus for teaming. People can still team there just as they do on COX but there isnt no big favor for teaming and not every other thing that is worth playing requires a team. it can be done solo.

[corvus1970]

I dont know. Felt kind of punished for teaming. When you team, you get nice xp bonus for doing so.

Well, yeah, nobody here is denying that.

Soloing, while possible up to the extent, a soloist was basically locked out of a lot of the good storyline content.

I never felt that way. Never. If you went through the game with the contacts you acquired, it was exceedingly rare to encounter a challenge that required teaming. Hell, even with my Blaster I soloed the Praetorian Arch-Villain arc with the Villains set as EBs. Granted, with my blaster, as opposed to one of my scrappers, I would make sure I had Shivans handy, but still. I soloed those. And that's just one example.

TF/SF/Trials-things that were the meat of the storyline of the game required teams.

I wouldn't call things like the Freedom-Phalanx TFs the "meat" of the story lines. To me they were the icing on a cake that was rather tasty all by itself.

Yea you can solo a random, non-storyline paper mish here and there but all in all, the good storylines seemed to required teaming, and given the bonuses and speed of leveling compared to soloing it seemed like the game favored teaming.

The game gave advantages for teaming, which is not the same as emphasizing. In no way does that mean soloists were left out in the proverbial cold. The game could be soloed from 1 to 50 if you so chose. Period.

Not to mention the incarnate stuff which definately seemed to favor teaming compared to soloing.

The "incarnate stuff" is a different beast that was added much later, and it had no impact on the ability to solo the game from 1-50.

I felt, DO NOT MISS THE KEYWORDS- I felt, that soloist were punished for soloing in COX and or teaming was very much encouraged and if you didnt team there was no love for you.

Yeah, glad you emphasized that you felt that way, because its all about your perception. While I could see the bonuses that were possible via teaming, I never felt pressured in any way to do so. And I sure as heck never felt that I was being gypped as a solo-player, as you seem to have felt.

You get the good stuff only by teaming, i'e the xp bonus that teams get, the relative good rate of incarnate stuff, even purple IOs was very hard to come by solo compared to doing certain TF/SF/Trials.

Again, the "incarnate stuff" is a different story. It is optional endgame content.

The soloist was basically left out i nthe cold with incentives that seemed to favor only teams.  Not to mention certain AT was an uphill battle to solo, further limiting soloists to certain builds and power sets

Now compared to CO, a soloist is not punished. Yo ucan do most of the content easily solo without if feeling like slower paced because of some huge bonus for teaming. People can still team there just as they do on COX but there isnt no big favor for teaming and not every other thing that is worth playing requires a team. it can be done solo.

A soloist was not punished in CoX.

As they say, perception is reality, and when it came to CoX, I was a glass half-full kind of guy, whereas it seems to you were the opposite. You seem to feel that because soloing wasn't favored via the game mechanics, it was punished. I don't think so. To me, lack of favoritism does not = punishment.

As for CO, you go enjoy that.

[JaguarX]

Well, yeah, nobody here is denying that.

I never felt that way. Never. If you went through the game with the contacts you acquired, it was exceedingly rare to encounter a challenge that required teaming. Hell, even with my Blaster I soloed the Praetorian Arch-Villain arc with the Villains set as EBs. Granted, with my blaster, as opposed to one of my scrappers, I would make sure I had Shivans handy, but still. I soloed those. And that's just one example.

I wouldn't call things like the Freedom-Phalanx TFs the "meat" of the story lines. To me they were the icing on a cake that was rather tasty all by itself.

The game gave advantages for teaming, which is not the same as emphasizing. In no way does that mean soloists were left out in the proverbial cold. The game could be soloed from 1 to 50 if you so chose. Period.

The "incarnate stuff" is a different beast that was added much later, and it had no impact on the ability to solo the game from 1-50.

Yeah, glad you emphasized that you felt that way, because its all about your perception. While I could see the bonuses that were possible via teaming, I never felt pressured in any way to do so. And I sure as heck never felt that I was being gypped as a solo-player, as you seem to have felt.

Again, the "incarnate stuff" is a different story. It is optional endgame content.

A soloist was not punished in CoX.

As they say, perception is reality, and when it came to CoX, I was a glass half-full kind of guy, whereas it seems to you were the opposite. You seem to feel that because soloing wasn't favored via the game mechanics, it was punished. I don't think so. To me, lack of favoritism does not = punishment.

As for CO, you go enjoy that.

So just because I dont see it as you do, that means I'm the glass empty guy and feel since that solo wasnt shown favoirtism that is how I concluded that it was punished? Well no that is not how I came to that conclusion at all actually. It did seemed that teaming was favored by a while. If not then why the big xp bonus for teams? Why the team requirement for TFs/SF/Trials? which also gave decent xp bonuses and good drops? Sounds like teaming was favored and soloist was left out in the cold with the basics.

But I am enjoying CO as a matter of fact but just because my view is different than yours, it would be nice to not get personal with it. I didnt get personal with you at all yet, you did with me. WHat is up with that? Ok, so you feel that COX gave god's gift to soloist. I felt they didnt. In the end it's all a matter of opinions and opinions will differ just as views, experiences, and the likes. I can respect that. Can you, it doesnt seem like it as you went personal nearly off the bat with labeling me, all of a sudden a negative person because my view is different not to mention trying to assign a way how I came to that conclusion like you are in my head and know me enough to say it was only because soloist wasnt shown favoritism. If you want to discuss this, that is fine but at least have the common decency and courtesy to leave the insults out of it.

[CG]

Is it unexpected that an MMO would focus on teamwork? There are many other options out there with a rich solo play story.

[JaguarX]

Is it unexpected that an MMO would focus on teamwork? There are many other options out there with a rich solo play story.

not of the creative build your own super hero variety. We have, CO....that's about it. Depending on who is asked, COX may fit too. Besides those two well down to one, that is all it seems.

But really it's not too unexpected. Just kind of odd with the denial that it is focused on teamwork.

[corvus1970]

*SNIP* Sounds like teaming was favored and soloist was left out in the cold with the basics.

The basics? In a game with characters that were fully viable with DO's and SO's before the invention system ever came around? And even after that, the generic IO's were more than enough to build a strong character. And you didn't have to team to get those things.

Furthermore, you didn't need the purples you mentioned earlier to succeed. I had several level 50 toons and nary a one used any purple enhancements. You evidently think that because a soloist may not get such things, he was getting the short end of the stick, and if soloing kept a person from advancing, you'd be right. However, as previously stated, you could solo from 1 to 50 if you so chose.

But I am enjoying CO as a matter of fact but just because my view is different than yours, it would be nice to not get personal with it.  I didnt get personal with you at all yet, you did with me. WHat is up with that?

I didn't get personal: I countered your comments. You have obviously misconstrued what I said.

Ok, so you feel that COX gave god's gift to soloist. I felt they didnt.

"God's gift"? Because I explained how solo-friendly the game was? Okay, whatever.

In the end it's all a matter of opinions and opinions will differ just as views, experiences, and the likes. I can respect that. Can you, it doesnt seem like it as you went personal nearly off the bat with labeling me, all of a sudden a negative person because my view is different not to mention trying to assign a way how I came to that conclusion like you are in my head and know me enough to say it was only because soloist wasnt shown favoritism. If you want to discuss this, that is fine but at least have the common decency and courtesy to leave the insults out of it.

I didn't insult you. I came to a conclusion that in regards to CoX you are looking back on it with a certain viewpoint, and that's what I talked about. I even said "in regards to CoX" in plain-English when I made my glass-half-full vs half-empty comment, which means I was talking about your view towards the game, not life. I guess you missed that.

If you want to discuss this, I suggest you read what is said just a little more carefully.

[JaguarX]

.

"God's gift"? Because I explained how solo-friendly the game was? Okay, whatever.

I didn't insult you. I came to a conclusion that in regards to CoX you are looking back on it with a certain viewpoint, and that's what I talked about. I even said "in regards to CoX" in plain-English when I made my glass-half-full vs half-empty comment, which means I was talking about your view towards the game, not life. I guess you missed that.

If you want to discuss this, I suggest you read what is said just a little more carefully.

I did read it just fine. Like I said, why is my view the half empty version but of course YOUR view is the half full? Because that is your view and anything opposite to that is negative? That is the insulting part about that insinuation. and like you reaction to my "God's gift" comment is how I feel about the half empty comment you made. Just because I said the game wasn't solo-friendly? Why cant a person have a different view without getting the negative end? It's not about half-empty or half full view. That is irrelevant anyways and only serves to paint a view in a negative light. Either way, the glass has water and air of equal proportions and that is all I'm saying. So you view it as solo friendly, fine. I view it as not solo friendly and that should be fine too WITHOUT the negative connotations.

[CG]

Just because I said the game wasn't solo-friendly?

I would have to disagree with this statement as well.  Task Forces and End Game required Teams.  Everything else in the game was soloable.  That's a whole lot more soloable content than team required content.  My rough guess would be 90%+ of soloable content, which makes the argument that the game wasn't solo-friendly hard to buy.

There were incentives to teaming the soloable content, for sure.  That's not the same as punishing or being unfriendly to solos.

not of the creative build your own super hero variety. We have, CO....that's about it. Depending on who is asked, COX may fit too. Besides those two well down to one, that is all it seems.

But really it's not too unexpected. Just kind of odd with the denial that it is focused on teamwork.

CO is an MMO as well.  There currently isn't a create your own hero solo game out there, but expecting an MMO to prefer solo play over team play isn't a reasonable expectation, IMO.

[corvus1970]

Indeed. After all, it does have that pesky "multi-player" bit in there.

[tigerbaby]

tch, a few weeks without CoH mobs to clobber on and you gotta start sniping on each other?

Hate to break it to ya, but CoH had benefits for both the soloist and for teams.  I feel sorry for those who only ever teamed and never knew the delicious pleasure of playing through story lines at absolute leisure, walking to the mission and battling a swath thru the mobs on the way, or playing dodgeball with purple-con mobs (good, good times!).  CoH was filled with intrinsic rewards for the patient soloist who took the time to stop and smell the roses (or clobber the paired Death Mages, as the case may be).  I loved the solo game, but also had a lot of fun teaming both on pickup teams and with my (tiny, but very dedicated) SG.  I was lucky to participate on pickup teams with some of the finest players in the game.

I had a ton of fun soloing Incarnate content from the dire announcement to the time the curtain fell, having opened and filled all my Incarnate slots to a range of tiers (Ion Jump got a lot of <3) and earned my first level shift.  I thought about joining an Incarnate pickup team 'just to see' but the rl situation at the time meant i could be called afk with no warning, so decided against it.

[corvus1970]

I feel sorry for those who only ever teamed and never knew the delicious pleasure of playing through story lines at absolute leisure, walking to the mission and battling a swath thru the mobs on the way, or playing dodgeball with purple-con mobs (good, good times!).

Ahhh, the joys of kiting!

[JaguarX]

I would have to disagree with this statement as well.  Task Forces and End Game required Teams.  Everything else in the game was soloable.  That's a whole lot more soloable content than team required content.  My rough guess would be 90%+ of soloable content, which makes the argument that the game wasn't solo-friendly hard to buy.

There were incentives to teaming the soloable content, for sure.  That's not the same as punishing or being unfriendly to solos.

CO is an MMO as well.  There currently isn't a create your own hero solo game out there, but expecting an MMO to prefer solo play over team play isn't a reasonable expectation, IMO.

Never said I was expecting it to prefer solo play over teaming but that doesnt mean I'm just going say that games are catering to solo players just as much as they do teaming when I feel that they do not. There really inst any argument about it or right or wrong as this is just about what I feel, how I view it, and my interpretation on how I feel and how it worked for me. I feel that it wasnt solo friendly. Others feel different. Cool. Still dont chance or wont change how I feel about it.

I know CO is an MMO that is why I pointed it out and it's a lot more solo friendly I feel than COX was. It doesnt punish solo players. Their TF equivalents, you can just go at it solo. It's not team gated. So yes there can be a game where you can team and solo without there favorites being played, like the system is even in CO. There is no huge extra bonus points for teaming. While solo dont get any bonus points, just standard. In CO it's all standard. A person can team but it wont be a big bonus for it.

But just as people point out it's crazy to say since COX shut down "Just choose another game there are plenty. It is jsut as crazy to say there are plenty of solo friendly choices out there when there isnt. Only about 1 currently.