Author Topic: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head  (Read 14406 times)

Victoria Victrix

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How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« on: December 10, 2012, 12:50:46 AM »
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 03:10:51 AM by Victoria Victrix »
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JaguarX

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yep.

While COX was addicting to some, it was for the player and not really draining the pockets of the customers and not much benefit or rather, enough benefit to the corporation.

I think I seen a similar post on the old COX forum about a month ago about this. It was interesting.

Axonius

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Well, all games are "addictive" otherwise, they would not be games. This even applies to physical sports.

A game must have an additive nature for you to come back to it. The same concept applies to things like... FOOD. i.e. Addictive foods are the most lucrative.

Everything. Every dollar you spend can be tied back to some sort of addiction concept/exploit.

Here is a very limited list of things our society is addicted to:

Internet
information
Money
Status
Music
Education
Reality shows
High Fat/High carb foods

I realize, that I'm off on a tangent here, but the whole "I'm a victim, they addicted me" issue really presses my buttons.





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Victoria Victrix

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2012, 03:21:26 AM »
I guess my main point is part of the whole bordering-on-unethical manipulation thing.  It's one thing where you pay for access/subscription--you do that with a magazine.  And it's one thing where you pay for a shiny--something that is not necessary for you to enjoy the game but is nice.  It's something else to be deliberately manipulated into a position where you find yourself herded into paying the equivalent of a used car payment every month just so you can "enjoy" a game.
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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2012, 03:21:41 AM »
Give me a break. You can't die from video game withdrawal, it's not heroin. Just because you like to do something and you spend a lot of time and/or money on it doesn't mean that it's automatically bad for you. Some people just love to victimize themselves and point fingers at whatever they can. This sort of trash psychology enables them to avoid taking responsibility for the choices they make. If anyone is out of line here it's the garbage phd opportunists that provide vehicles for this kind of thought process.

Osborn

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2012, 03:33:49 AM »
I guess my main point is part of the whole bordering-on-unethical manipulation thing.  It's one thing where you pay for access/subscription--you do that with a magazine.  And it's one thing where you pay for a shiny--something that is not necessary for you to enjoy the game but is nice.  It's something else to be deliberately manipulated into a position where you find yourself herded into paying the equivalent of a used car payment every month just so you can "enjoy" a game.

Yeah, I can't say that it's not unethical, I just find it to be a larger problem in general that's not relegated to 'video games'.

Maybe it's my personal biases talking, but when people's lives are crappy enough they're finding Farmville is more interesting in their lives, my knee jerk reaction isn't "Ban Farmville!", it's more "Why are people so miserable that Farmville is better than their life?".

But it is kind of crappy to exploit people like that, I totally agree.

emu265

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2012, 03:37:52 AM »
To me, Cities was somewhat addicting.  But I could play without spending money.

unladenswallow

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2012, 04:42:32 AM »
I guess my main point is part of the whole bordering-on-unethical manipulation thing.  It's one thing where you pay for access/subscription--you do that with a magazine.  And it's one thing where you pay for a shiny--something that is not necessary for you to enjoy the game but is nice.  It's something else to be deliberately manipulated into a position where you find yourself herded into paying the equivalent of a used car payment every month just so you can "enjoy" a game.

There are usually several other tell tell signs that a company is doing such things. I played a game that exploited the players and made some very poor attempt at hiding what they were doing. They didn't start off putting a lot of exclusive one time only items in the cash shop but after the first year or so I noticed they were offering more and more items. It was a Korean fantasy grind MMO marketed through a western company that offers Korean games to a nitch western market. It was the kind of game that usually has absolutely no appeal to me. A friend encouraged me to check it out and it was F2P, which at that time, (mid 2007) was something I had not yet seen before, so I gave it a shot.

The graphics were good, I liked the game mechanics and I was unemployed at the time so I had a lot of free time. I had been playing COH so much that I was starting to get burned out on it. So I played this game and switched back and forth between it and COH.

The game was plagued with bugs and like many Korean games of this type was frequently the target of hackers and gold farmers. At one time the entire game was shut down for over a week because of majors technical problems. The customer service was unbelievably bad. I wound up submitting three complaints to the BBB before I finally gave up on it.

They really didn't offer hardly anything in the cash shop at first but after a year or so it started to pick up. By the end of the third year they were coming out with exclusive one time only items every two or three weeks. With this, coupled with the bugs, and horrible customer service I had had enough.

Looking at how the company had dealt with the other games it offered, (it produced none of it's own) and how they marketed all of them it quickly became apparent to me that the games were just cash cows to them and their customer base was to be manipulated to extract as much capital out of them as they can. On at least two of their other games they actually hired people who hacked into the game to catch other hackers and gave all of them uber gear. They also mismanaged one of the games that was licensed to them so badly that the owners broke their contract and licensed the game to someone else.

One of the very first hints I got of this was when they finally banned most of the gold farmers and hackers. They did blanket perma bans that caught a lot of customers that weren't farmers or hackers. Several of them complained about this in the forums and the lead GM basically said we know this is happening but picking through all the accounts to find the ones who aren't guilty is prohibitively expensive and they are just basically SOL.

Looking back on it I'm really surprised I stayed with it as long as I did.
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TonyV

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2012, 04:46:55 AM »
Just a quick note.  Like most people should, I hate Skinner boxes.  I suppose some people could think of City of Heroes as a Skinner box, but I never really did.

For one thing, the main reward of the game--leveling up and obtaining rewards--wore pretty thin after a pretty short time to me.  Even the Incarnate stuff, I didn't really care about that much.  Interesting factoid: I never got any character that last Incarnate unlock (what was it called, hybrid?).  In fact, I never did the Magesterium trial on any character.  I kinda hope that someone posts video of it so I'll know what it looks like, but I just never felt the need to.  There was reward, but the reward never really pushed my triggers like a classic Skinner box does.

For another, the main reason I played the game was just because I liked playing the game.  In fact, a lot of my "playing" was done vicariously through Belle, who would play while I sat working on some new site or answering e-mails or whatnot, and I'd help her out if she had any questions or needed assistance with anything particularly hard.  But most of the time Belle played, she wasn't actually doing much in terms of actual game stuff.  She would spend hours working on easy missions, talking to friends, training new players, etc.  Point is, Paragon City was just a cool place to be.  I liked flying around buildings, beating the snot out of Nazis, screwing around doing nothing in particular.

Some people argued vehemently when they released the Super Packs that that was essentially a Skinner box.  I disagree with that, too.  Yeah, I supposed you could waste a crapton of money on them, but realistically, 1) you could also get them for free, and 2) unlike something like gambling where you can never have enough money, if you bought enough Super Packs, eventually you got "done".  And unless you were really damn unlucky, getting "done" normally didn't take particularly long or THAT much money.  I bought one of the super mega packs of Super Packs once, and truth is, I think I had some of them left at the end just because eventually, I got tired of opening them.

Anyway, I just don't see City of Heroes as in the same league as games that I feel are designed specifically to be more addictive.  Sure you could spend a lot of time and money on it--and I did--but that time and money was spread out over eight and a half years.  And honestly, most of the money I spent on the game was in outside costs, like hosting web sites and traveling to Mountain View for face-to-face events.

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2012, 05:33:56 AM »
In all honesty? I've always felt City of Heroes was under-monetized. I'm not saying I wanted, or believed it should, sink to the level described in the OP, but I often looked at the whole system and though, 'wow - they're being really nice guys here, shouldn't they be trying harder to get money?' At the very least, for what you got, they could have been charging twice as much as they did for the VIP fee. After all, you got a decent sized allowance and access to pretty much everything in one neat package. If all they'd done was double it, City of Heroes would still have hands down been the nice guy on the block compared to what most other games would make you do to get all those benefits. And the Rewards Pyramid! I mean, I loved the logic, but wasn't it almost too nice for their own good? So many things you could eventually unlock for yourself, even if you didn't spend anything.

Games are a business. The business? To figure out the best way to get players to regularly spend money - and like it. After all, we're talking about a model meant to replace everybody having to subscribe without losing by it. My father's talked about similar tactics in the food industry - they too use science and experiment to find the combination that will prove irresistible and addictive, deliberately creating an era of overeating in the name of sales. Both that and the OP represent the extreme evil of a mindset that is inherently only natural.

I played Mabinogi quite a while before finding CoH, and I'm playing it quite a lot now. And frankly, I find it pretty ideal in that regard. It does an excellent job of making various purchases attractive, but no ones being tricked into anything, and the game is designed to allow reasonably effective gameplay for free if that's what you want. They've even added two free travel pets per account recently (one flyer, one runner). They haven't got content locked away, and the Talent system means that even skill xp doublers have a free counterpart. It's not playing evil - it's just monetized very, very cleverly, and it works. I spend when I want to (rarely), but what I have spent, I rarely regret. And many players spend more.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I loved City of Heroes, it was a wonderful game, and I will be thrilled to play again when we succeed. But frankly, the developers were probably too noble for their own good. They didn't have to start pulling all that manipulation shtus, but they really gamed the system against themselves in my opinion. There are several simple ways they could have made the game more monetized that would not have been manipulative or taken advantage of people, and no one would have complained. Why? Because they were still getting their money's worth, that's why (instead of a total steal).

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2012, 05:42:28 AM »
In fact, I never did the Magesterium trial on any character.  I kinda hope that someone posts video of it so I'll know what it looks like

We'll do better than post a video. As soon as Disney or someone acquires the game or some private server happens we'll run it! It's one of those things that you've got to run :)

Mandrake

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2012, 06:03:55 AM »
CoX is the *only* game I've ever played that did not charge anything at all for *any* of their expansions / issues. I agree that they were far and away a cut above the competition, but also agree possibly to their own detriment. At the same time however, I think we would have to agree that once they re-structured with the F2P system (which cry all you want - it was the best F2P cash shop I've ever seen and I've seen a lot of them. Not invasive. Not popping up in your face all the time. Not required to enjoy the game. And extremely convenient to purchase items for costume pieces, etc straight from the lists. And completely hide-able from your UI!!! BONUS!) they were a bit stuck on gain/loss of revenue if they were to increase VIP pricing.

Think about it this way... F2P is born, they offer all VIP players 'hey subscription fees are going up from $15 to $20 or even $25 per month. We're going to compensate you with x,y, and z for remaining a VIP subscriber'. There would be an outcry from the current VIP base. A lot of people would have no problem with it, but several hundred, possibly thousand would say 'screw this' and go F2P only, or just say seeya. So... how best to balance? Kind of a tight rope to walk really.

I think that over the years they should have gotten people used to charging (even nominal fees) for new issues, add on 'editions' (new power sets / features), etc. City was and hopefully will be again a place of epic greatness. As outdated as the game is however (the engine, graphics, etc.), I don't think we can really look to a re-opening at higher prices and expect the market to respond well to it. *We* would all jump on it willingly, but we have to keep in mind that the extra $5 jump from 15 to 20 is enough to keep a few thousand new VIP subscribers out of the pool. That's a few thousand times 5 compared to none times 20. Again - a balancing game. How many will go ahead and pay the 20 vs. how many more would sign up at 15? I dunno. It would take probably a 50k difference to make it worthwhile I guess. 20x50k = 1mil, 15x100k = 1.5mil. Hard to say. With some really good advertising - might not take too long to get built back up.. especially with all the new superhero movies / craze lately.

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2012, 06:36:08 AM »
Quote
CoX is the *only* game I've ever played that did not charge anything at all for *any* of their expansions / issues.

Wha? COV? Going Rogue?

Aggelakis

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2012, 06:44:26 AM »
Wha? COV? Going Rogue?
If you started late enough, CoV was given away to all active accounts and was then included in the base game, and GR was a part of your VIP license after Freedom.

But I'm sure Krnl was talking about what other games call 'major patches' and we called 'issues'. All 23 (and 24th on its way) were free.
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DrakeGrimm

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2012, 07:15:29 AM »
I've spent enough time in the service industry that, honestly, I should qualify for an honorary degree in psychology. Lots of games use these little tips and tricks to try to push you into playing longer, paying in more, etc. The thing is, once you recognize what they're doing, it's pretty easy to break free of the cycle and just play the game to play the game.

City of Heroes addicted me for an entirely different reason: It was my home. My decision to get 'all the shinies' was born out of a love of the game and the devs, and wanting to support that while giving myself more character options. It was a great model, even once it went F2P. I will never, ever forgive NCSoft for what they have done, and I hope karma's ready to step up and humble them.
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Victoria Victrix

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2012, 10:23:47 AM »
I've spent enough time in the service industry that, honestly, I should qualify for an honorary degree in psychology. Lots of games use these little tips and tricks to try to push you into playing longer, paying in more, etc. The thing is, once you recognize what they're doing, it's pretty easy to break free of the cycle and just play the game to play the game.

City of Heroes addicted me for an entirely different reason: It was my home. My decision to get 'all the shinies' was born out of a love of the game and the devs, and wanting to support that while giving myself more character options. It was a great model, even once it went F2P. I will never, ever forgive NCSoft for what they have done, and I hope karma's ready to step up and humble them.

I could not have said it better myself, Grimmie.
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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2012, 10:32:41 AM »
^^
That for me, too.
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Zolgar

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2012, 10:51:38 AM »
Give me a break. You can't die from video game withdrawal, it's not heroin. Just because you like to do something and you spend a lot of time and/or money on it doesn't mean that it's automatically bad for you. Some people just love to victimize themselves and point fingers at whatever they can. This sort of trash psychology enables them to avoid taking responsibility for the choices they make. If anyone is out of line here it's the garbage phd opportunists that provide vehicles for this kind of thought process.

Uhm dude..

Video games can, and often are, highly addicting. Mental addictions are less detrimental to your health than most chemical additions, but they are no less real. We develop a compulsion for things. Some people grow addicted easier than others. Some can play games for hours a day, every day, and walk away like it's nothing.. others can't though.

I myself was actually addicted to video games at once point in my life. I'm not any more (well, I like to tell myself that at least). I would get antsy, frustrated, sometimes even aggressive if for whatever reason I couldn't play- and I'd get super pissed if something caused a sudden interruption (like cable crapping out). You're right, people don't die from video game withdrawal, but you're also most chemical addictions aren't going to kill you from the withdrawals either (might make you wish you were dead, but that's beside the point).

Games like Farmville and other 'simple, casual online games' tend to have a highly addictive quality to them, partly because that's how they're designed... it's not a "lose control" type thing.. it's a very gradual thing, you don't really notice it- you try the game and you're all "hey, this is kinda fun." and so you play it for a little bit. Then you go play it again, and end up playing longer.. then you're playing it again and you figure "What the hell, I enjoy this game, so I'll throw some money at them for this shiny thing to support a game I enjoy." and you give them $5-20, no big deal. You find you really like what that got you though, and so you throw money at them again.. just like $5-10, not big deal..
Before too long it's escalated and without really thinking about it you're throwing $2-10 at them multiple times a week. Each one of those transactions is little and inconsequential on it's own.. but it adds up fast.
After a months to a year or so, you may not have really noticed it, until someone points out what you're doing.

Now, a normal, well adjusted person can just walk away when that happens, yes.. some people though, can't. Just like some people can't stay off cigarettes. For some, seeing their computer sitting there is just as bad as seeing a bottle of beer for an alcoholic.