Author Topic: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head  (Read 14403 times)

Victoria Victrix

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How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« on: December 10, 2012, 12:50:46 AM »
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 03:10:51 AM by Victoria Victrix »
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JaguarX

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yep.

While COX was addicting to some, it was for the player and not really draining the pockets of the customers and not much benefit or rather, enough benefit to the corporation.

I think I seen a similar post on the old COX forum about a month ago about this. It was interesting.

Axonius

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Well, all games are "addictive" otherwise, they would not be games. This even applies to physical sports.

A game must have an additive nature for you to come back to it. The same concept applies to things like... FOOD. i.e. Addictive foods are the most lucrative.

Everything. Every dollar you spend can be tied back to some sort of addiction concept/exploit.

Here is a very limited list of things our society is addicted to:

Internet
information
Money
Status
Music
Education
Reality shows
High Fat/High carb foods

I realize, that I'm off on a tangent here, but the whole "I'm a victim, they addicted me" issue really presses my buttons.





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Victoria Victrix

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2012, 03:21:26 AM »
I guess my main point is part of the whole bordering-on-unethical manipulation thing.  It's one thing where you pay for access/subscription--you do that with a magazine.  And it's one thing where you pay for a shiny--something that is not necessary for you to enjoy the game but is nice.  It's something else to be deliberately manipulated into a position where you find yourself herded into paying the equivalent of a used car payment every month just so you can "enjoy" a game.
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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2012, 03:21:41 AM »
Give me a break. You can't die from video game withdrawal, it's not heroin. Just because you like to do something and you spend a lot of time and/or money on it doesn't mean that it's automatically bad for you. Some people just love to victimize themselves and point fingers at whatever they can. This sort of trash psychology enables them to avoid taking responsibility for the choices they make. If anyone is out of line here it's the garbage phd opportunists that provide vehicles for this kind of thought process.

Osborn

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2012, 03:33:49 AM »
I guess my main point is part of the whole bordering-on-unethical manipulation thing.  It's one thing where you pay for access/subscription--you do that with a magazine.  And it's one thing where you pay for a shiny--something that is not necessary for you to enjoy the game but is nice.  It's something else to be deliberately manipulated into a position where you find yourself herded into paying the equivalent of a used car payment every month just so you can "enjoy" a game.

Yeah, I can't say that it's not unethical, I just find it to be a larger problem in general that's not relegated to 'video games'.

Maybe it's my personal biases talking, but when people's lives are crappy enough they're finding Farmville is more interesting in their lives, my knee jerk reaction isn't "Ban Farmville!", it's more "Why are people so miserable that Farmville is better than their life?".

But it is kind of crappy to exploit people like that, I totally agree.

emu265

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2012, 03:37:52 AM »
To me, Cities was somewhat addicting.  But I could play without spending money.

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2012, 04:42:32 AM »
I guess my main point is part of the whole bordering-on-unethical manipulation thing.  It's one thing where you pay for access/subscription--you do that with a magazine.  And it's one thing where you pay for a shiny--something that is not necessary for you to enjoy the game but is nice.  It's something else to be deliberately manipulated into a position where you find yourself herded into paying the equivalent of a used car payment every month just so you can "enjoy" a game.

There are usually several other tell tell signs that a company is doing such things. I played a game that exploited the players and made some very poor attempt at hiding what they were doing. They didn't start off putting a lot of exclusive one time only items in the cash shop but after the first year or so I noticed they were offering more and more items. It was a Korean fantasy grind MMO marketed through a western company that offers Korean games to a nitch western market. It was the kind of game that usually has absolutely no appeal to me. A friend encouraged me to check it out and it was F2P, which at that time, (mid 2007) was something I had not yet seen before, so I gave it a shot.

The graphics were good, I liked the game mechanics and I was unemployed at the time so I had a lot of free time. I had been playing COH so much that I was starting to get burned out on it. So I played this game and switched back and forth between it and COH.

The game was plagued with bugs and like many Korean games of this type was frequently the target of hackers and gold farmers. At one time the entire game was shut down for over a week because of majors technical problems. The customer service was unbelievably bad. I wound up submitting three complaints to the BBB before I finally gave up on it.

They really didn't offer hardly anything in the cash shop at first but after a year or so it started to pick up. By the end of the third year they were coming out with exclusive one time only items every two or three weeks. With this, coupled with the bugs, and horrible customer service I had had enough.

Looking at how the company had dealt with the other games it offered, (it produced none of it's own) and how they marketed all of them it quickly became apparent to me that the games were just cash cows to them and their customer base was to be manipulated to extract as much capital out of them as they can. On at least two of their other games they actually hired people who hacked into the game to catch other hackers and gave all of them uber gear. They also mismanaged one of the games that was licensed to them so badly that the owners broke their contract and licensed the game to someone else.

One of the very first hints I got of this was when they finally banned most of the gold farmers and hackers. They did blanket perma bans that caught a lot of customers that weren't farmers or hackers. Several of them complained about this in the forums and the lead GM basically said we know this is happening but picking through all the accounts to find the ones who aren't guilty is prohibitively expensive and they are just basically SOL.

Looking back on it I'm really surprised I stayed with it as long as I did.
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TonyV

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2012, 04:46:55 AM »
Just a quick note.  Like most people should, I hate Skinner boxes.  I suppose some people could think of City of Heroes as a Skinner box, but I never really did.

For one thing, the main reward of the game--leveling up and obtaining rewards--wore pretty thin after a pretty short time to me.  Even the Incarnate stuff, I didn't really care about that much.  Interesting factoid: I never got any character that last Incarnate unlock (what was it called, hybrid?).  In fact, I never did the Magesterium trial on any character.  I kinda hope that someone posts video of it so I'll know what it looks like, but I just never felt the need to.  There was reward, but the reward never really pushed my triggers like a classic Skinner box does.

For another, the main reason I played the game was just because I liked playing the game.  In fact, a lot of my "playing" was done vicariously through Belle, who would play while I sat working on some new site or answering e-mails or whatnot, and I'd help her out if she had any questions or needed assistance with anything particularly hard.  But most of the time Belle played, she wasn't actually doing much in terms of actual game stuff.  She would spend hours working on easy missions, talking to friends, training new players, etc.  Point is, Paragon City was just a cool place to be.  I liked flying around buildings, beating the snot out of Nazis, screwing around doing nothing in particular.

Some people argued vehemently when they released the Super Packs that that was essentially a Skinner box.  I disagree with that, too.  Yeah, I supposed you could waste a crapton of money on them, but realistically, 1) you could also get them for free, and 2) unlike something like gambling where you can never have enough money, if you bought enough Super Packs, eventually you got "done".  And unless you were really damn unlucky, getting "done" normally didn't take particularly long or THAT much money.  I bought one of the super mega packs of Super Packs once, and truth is, I think I had some of them left at the end just because eventually, I got tired of opening them.

Anyway, I just don't see City of Heroes as in the same league as games that I feel are designed specifically to be more addictive.  Sure you could spend a lot of time and money on it--and I did--but that time and money was spread out over eight and a half years.  And honestly, most of the money I spent on the game was in outside costs, like hosting web sites and traveling to Mountain View for face-to-face events.

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2012, 05:33:56 AM »
In all honesty? I've always felt City of Heroes was under-monetized. I'm not saying I wanted, or believed it should, sink to the level described in the OP, but I often looked at the whole system and though, 'wow - they're being really nice guys here, shouldn't they be trying harder to get money?' At the very least, for what you got, they could have been charging twice as much as they did for the VIP fee. After all, you got a decent sized allowance and access to pretty much everything in one neat package. If all they'd done was double it, City of Heroes would still have hands down been the nice guy on the block compared to what most other games would make you do to get all those benefits. And the Rewards Pyramid! I mean, I loved the logic, but wasn't it almost too nice for their own good? So many things you could eventually unlock for yourself, even if you didn't spend anything.

Games are a business. The business? To figure out the best way to get players to regularly spend money - and like it. After all, we're talking about a model meant to replace everybody having to subscribe without losing by it. My father's talked about similar tactics in the food industry - they too use science and experiment to find the combination that will prove irresistible and addictive, deliberately creating an era of overeating in the name of sales. Both that and the OP represent the extreme evil of a mindset that is inherently only natural.

I played Mabinogi quite a while before finding CoH, and I'm playing it quite a lot now. And frankly, I find it pretty ideal in that regard. It does an excellent job of making various purchases attractive, but no ones being tricked into anything, and the game is designed to allow reasonably effective gameplay for free if that's what you want. They've even added two free travel pets per account recently (one flyer, one runner). They haven't got content locked away, and the Talent system means that even skill xp doublers have a free counterpart. It's not playing evil - it's just monetized very, very cleverly, and it works. I spend when I want to (rarely), but what I have spent, I rarely regret. And many players spend more.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I loved City of Heroes, it was a wonderful game, and I will be thrilled to play again when we succeed. But frankly, the developers were probably too noble for their own good. They didn't have to start pulling all that manipulation shtus, but they really gamed the system against themselves in my opinion. There are several simple ways they could have made the game more monetized that would not have been manipulative or taken advantage of people, and no one would have complained. Why? Because they were still getting their money's worth, that's why (instead of a total steal).

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2012, 05:42:28 AM »
In fact, I never did the Magesterium trial on any character.  I kinda hope that someone posts video of it so I'll know what it looks like

We'll do better than post a video. As soon as Disney or someone acquires the game or some private server happens we'll run it! It's one of those things that you've got to run :)

Mandrake

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2012, 06:03:55 AM »
CoX is the *only* game I've ever played that did not charge anything at all for *any* of their expansions / issues. I agree that they were far and away a cut above the competition, but also agree possibly to their own detriment. At the same time however, I think we would have to agree that once they re-structured with the F2P system (which cry all you want - it was the best F2P cash shop I've ever seen and I've seen a lot of them. Not invasive. Not popping up in your face all the time. Not required to enjoy the game. And extremely convenient to purchase items for costume pieces, etc straight from the lists. And completely hide-able from your UI!!! BONUS!) they were a bit stuck on gain/loss of revenue if they were to increase VIP pricing.

Think about it this way... F2P is born, they offer all VIP players 'hey subscription fees are going up from $15 to $20 or even $25 per month. We're going to compensate you with x,y, and z for remaining a VIP subscriber'. There would be an outcry from the current VIP base. A lot of people would have no problem with it, but several hundred, possibly thousand would say 'screw this' and go F2P only, or just say seeya. So... how best to balance? Kind of a tight rope to walk really.

I think that over the years they should have gotten people used to charging (even nominal fees) for new issues, add on 'editions' (new power sets / features), etc. City was and hopefully will be again a place of epic greatness. As outdated as the game is however (the engine, graphics, etc.), I don't think we can really look to a re-opening at higher prices and expect the market to respond well to it. *We* would all jump on it willingly, but we have to keep in mind that the extra $5 jump from 15 to 20 is enough to keep a few thousand new VIP subscribers out of the pool. That's a few thousand times 5 compared to none times 20. Again - a balancing game. How many will go ahead and pay the 20 vs. how many more would sign up at 15? I dunno. It would take probably a 50k difference to make it worthwhile I guess. 20x50k = 1mil, 15x100k = 1.5mil. Hard to say. With some really good advertising - might not take too long to get built back up.. especially with all the new superhero movies / craze lately.

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2012, 06:36:08 AM »
Quote
CoX is the *only* game I've ever played that did not charge anything at all for *any* of their expansions / issues.

Wha? COV? Going Rogue?

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2012, 06:44:26 AM »
Wha? COV? Going Rogue?
If you started late enough, CoV was given away to all active accounts and was then included in the base game, and GR was a part of your VIP license after Freedom.

But I'm sure Krnl was talking about what other games call 'major patches' and we called 'issues'. All 23 (and 24th on its way) were free.
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DrakeGrimm

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2012, 07:15:29 AM »
I've spent enough time in the service industry that, honestly, I should qualify for an honorary degree in psychology. Lots of games use these little tips and tricks to try to push you into playing longer, paying in more, etc. The thing is, once you recognize what they're doing, it's pretty easy to break free of the cycle and just play the game to play the game.

City of Heroes addicted me for an entirely different reason: It was my home. My decision to get 'all the shinies' was born out of a love of the game and the devs, and wanting to support that while giving myself more character options. It was a great model, even once it went F2P. I will never, ever forgive NCSoft for what they have done, and I hope karma's ready to step up and humble them.
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Victoria Victrix

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2012, 10:23:47 AM »
I've spent enough time in the service industry that, honestly, I should qualify for an honorary degree in psychology. Lots of games use these little tips and tricks to try to push you into playing longer, paying in more, etc. The thing is, once you recognize what they're doing, it's pretty easy to break free of the cycle and just play the game to play the game.

City of Heroes addicted me for an entirely different reason: It was my home. My decision to get 'all the shinies' was born out of a love of the game and the devs, and wanting to support that while giving myself more character options. It was a great model, even once it went F2P. I will never, ever forgive NCSoft for what they have done, and I hope karma's ready to step up and humble them.

I could not have said it better myself, Grimmie.
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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2012, 10:32:41 AM »
^^
That for me, too.
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Zolgar

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2012, 10:51:38 AM »
Give me a break. You can't die from video game withdrawal, it's not heroin. Just because you like to do something and you spend a lot of time and/or money on it doesn't mean that it's automatically bad for you. Some people just love to victimize themselves and point fingers at whatever they can. This sort of trash psychology enables them to avoid taking responsibility for the choices they make. If anyone is out of line here it's the garbage phd opportunists that provide vehicles for this kind of thought process.

Uhm dude..

Video games can, and often are, highly addicting. Mental addictions are less detrimental to your health than most chemical additions, but they are no less real. We develop a compulsion for things. Some people grow addicted easier than others. Some can play games for hours a day, every day, and walk away like it's nothing.. others can't though.

I myself was actually addicted to video games at once point in my life. I'm not any more (well, I like to tell myself that at least). I would get antsy, frustrated, sometimes even aggressive if for whatever reason I couldn't play- and I'd get super pissed if something caused a sudden interruption (like cable crapping out). You're right, people don't die from video game withdrawal, but you're also most chemical addictions aren't going to kill you from the withdrawals either (might make you wish you were dead, but that's beside the point).

Games like Farmville and other 'simple, casual online games' tend to have a highly addictive quality to them, partly because that's how they're designed... it's not a "lose control" type thing.. it's a very gradual thing, you don't really notice it- you try the game and you're all "hey, this is kinda fun." and so you play it for a little bit. Then you go play it again, and end up playing longer.. then you're playing it again and you figure "What the hell, I enjoy this game, so I'll throw some money at them for this shiny thing to support a game I enjoy." and you give them $5-20, no big deal. You find you really like what that got you though, and so you throw money at them again.. just like $5-10, not big deal..
Before too long it's escalated and without really thinking about it you're throwing $2-10 at them multiple times a week. Each one of those transactions is little and inconsequential on it's own.. but it adds up fast.
After a months to a year or so, you may not have really noticed it, until someone points out what you're doing.

Now, a normal, well adjusted person can just walk away when that happens, yes.. some people though, can't. Just like some people can't stay off cigarettes. For some, seeing their computer sitting there is just as bad as seeing a bottle of beer for an alcoholic.

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2012, 11:05:42 AM »
Give me a break. You can't die from video game withdrawal, it's not heroin. Just because you like to do something and you spend a lot of time and/or money on it doesn't mean that it's automatically bad for you. Some people just love to victimize themselves and point fingers at whatever they can. This sort of trash psychology enables them to avoid taking responsibility for the choices they make. If anyone is out of line here it's the garbage phd opportunists that provide vehicles for this kind of thought process.
You should tell this to the kid that died a few years ago because he kept playing WoW non-stop for several days on nothing but energy drinks. :P
And there are more crazy cases like that out there.
Is it the game's fault? Nope, but some people definitely DO get addicted past the point that is healthy for them.

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2012, 11:17:45 AM »
Well said, Zolgar.

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2012, 11:32:02 AM »
You should tell this to the kid that died a few years ago because he kept playing WoW non-stop for several days on nothing but energy drinks. :P
And there are more crazy cases like that out there.
Is it the game's fault? Nope, but some people definitely DO get addicted past the point that is healthy for them.

to add to this: Sleep deprivation is deadly in itself!
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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2012, 12:52:37 PM »
Just adding my two inf:

At least until mid 2011, the EU, and more specifically Germany, hadn't recognized "Video Game Addiction" as an addiction per se. The psychologists examining the phenomenon realized that in most situations, the addiction symptoms were results of the social surroundings, but not by physiological/psychological addiction. An attempt of an addiction clinic in Cologne was even closed, due to the fact that they realized it was a job for social workers, and not psychologists.

I have to restrict my statement slightly since I left the game industry last year and haven't stayed informed that well since then.
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JaguarX

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2012, 04:09:51 PM »
Some people argued vehemently when they released the Super Packs that that was essentially a Skinner box.  I disagree with that, too.  Yeah, I supposed you could waste a crapton of money on them, but realistically, 1) you could also get them for free, and 2) unlike something like gambling where you can never have enough money, if you bought enough Super Packs, eventually you got "done".  And unless you were really damn unlucky, getting "done" normally didn't take particularly long or THAT much money.  I bought one of the super mega packs of Super Packs once, and truth is, I think I had some of them left at the end just because eventually, I got tired of opening them.


yeah those Super packs. I knew someone personally that was THAT unlucky and they spent a significant amount and still was going and still didnt end up with anything good for them. It started to become a virtual one arm bandit for them because they figured it had to be their time to hit soon, a time that never came.


On a side note though, yeah people do need to take more responsibility for their actions. Anything can be addicting per se, but in the end it's the person's responsibility to be able to walk away. If they cant, but the next guy can, is the game considered addicting because of a few cases of people who is addicted? How about those that have been subscribed longer but is not addicted and where exactly is the line anyways? Some people are addicted to sugar, is it the sugar fault or candy maker's fault? Not many people blame them thus video games should not be blamed either. Even when it comes to heroine or worse habit to kick, nicotine, it's up to the person to beat the habit or not. As seen, many addicts, even after they admit they have a problem do nothing to actually try to "fix" the problem even when viable options/help are available. With video games it's easy, well from my view, (it may not be so easy for one with that particular problem but cant speak of that view because I never been there) is just unplug, walk away, find something else to do, spend time with family, phone a friend/family, take a break, go to the store, go for a walk in the park, go for a cruise whether by car or ship and etc.


By the time a problem is "officially" identified by the medical personally, by then it's too late anyways and the problem have grown significantly. At one point heroin addiction wasnt considered a problem but years later and after ocuntless people died or lives ruined, then it became a problem, same problem, just offical now, now there isnt enough resources to stem the problem when if it was done years ago instead of waiting for "official" reconiton, they could have developed a solution when it was a "small" problem. You'd think they would learn by now but it's like it's just a repeat over and over. Like they have the memory of a fish.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 04:20:32 PM by JaguarX »

Illusionss

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2012, 04:31:20 PM »
If addiction is their intended goal, why is GuildWars2 so..... MAN. Trust me.

Eighty levels. And xp gain there is moderate at best, CoX leveled like lightning compared to this game. It would take me a year of serious solo time to hit level 80.

No Flight, no Super Speed, not even Hover. You jog slooooooooooooooooooooooooowly across huge maps. [Yes you can teleport, but its gonna cost ya]. A very expensive RMT shop.

CoX it aint, even taking Super Packs into consideration.  8)

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2012, 04:48:04 PM »
I've posted these before, but it bears repeating.

http://www.cracked.com/article_18461_5-creepy-ways-video-games-are-trying-to-get-you-addicted.html

http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-6-most-ominous-trends-in-video-games/

Yes, manipulative corporate game designers are trying to addict you. Yes, it works. The entire city of Las Vegas is a monument to the fact that the human psyche can be invaded and perverted by information viruses, just like a computer.

Yes, the individual must take some responsibility for their actions. If you know that a particular substance or action is addictive, you must refrain. As a personal example, a member of my immediate family suffered from alcoholism. I do not drink alcohol, at all, despite the social awkwardness that sometimes results. (I have no problem with those who are able to drink responsibly... genetics plays a major factor in chemical addiction.) Everyone knows heroin and nicotine are addictive, and the addict bears blame for starting. I refuse to try them, I also refuse to play gambling games. I think of this like a computer's "firewall." I only played CoH after close inspection.

Once hooked, the user's power of choice is steadily eroded. The chains are real, even if you can't see them. Though they probably learned a hard lesson, it's too late. The addict must succumb, or find the strength to fight the addiction every day of their lives, and will never be truly free again. They deserve our sympathy and assistance.

I love computer games. I do. They, like any medium, can tell us stories, educate us, teach us courage, even elevate us. I love games where the creators exerted their full powers to give their audience an edifying experience. My favorites are Civilization and Alpha Centauri, Roller Coaster Tycoon, Star Control II and X-Com, but there are many more. I'm glad these exist to enrich our culture and ourselves.

I fully experienced City of Heroes. City of Heroes, I can say, was not addictive. I played, took long breaks and let the subscription lapse, played something else, came back when I missed it. It told stories, it allowed me to experience my created characters' stories. The stories and the other player's characters affected my characters in unexpected ways.

Manipulative, deliberately addictive games exist. They are an entirely different creation. No large work of art can ever escape the fundamental nature of its creator(s). The games I mentioned were made by people who were passionate about contributing something of value, giving that value for the ticket price. These manipulative games (Farmville, Evony) are merely more elaborate versions of slot machines or roulette wheels, bereft of creativity or ideas,  designed to exploit rather than edify, because money is all their creators value.

Avoid them like you would avoid that first cigarette, or that first hit of heroin. Revile their creators as you would revile Big Tobacco or drug dealers. Let us hope for a more enlightened future that does not tolerate such things.

Do the current and upcoming games from NCSoft resemble Farmville and Evony?
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 05:01:07 PM by Colette »

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2012, 04:59:08 PM »
The fact that any business needs the stupidity of humanity in order to succeed, is just pathetic.

Segev

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2012, 05:01:56 PM »
The fact that any business needs the stupidity of humanity in order to succeed, is just pathetic.
Politicians!

downix

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2012, 05:05:21 PM »
I wrote about this, and made the same link the OP made:

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/12/09/who-needs-drugs-when-youve-got-farmville/

Feycat

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2012, 05:13:04 PM »
If addiction is their intended goal, why is GuildWars2 so..... MAN. Trust me.

Eighty levels. And xp gain there is moderate at best, CoX leveled like lightning compared to this game. It would take me a year of serious solo time to hit level 80.

No Flight, no Super Speed, not even Hover. You jog slooooooooooooooooooooooooowly across huge maps. [Yes you can teleport, but its gonna cost ya]. A very expensive RMT shop.

CoX it aint, even taking Super Packs into consideration.  8)

You might try slagging off the game a little less. I'm not sure what the problem is, but I've been playing since launch, I've got 2 80s so far, and I feel great playing. I've got 9 characters - because alt-itis doesn't stop with COH - and combat is fantastic, and fluid. I don't know that I could ever go back to another "stand still and push buttons" MMO combat system.

Teleportation is not that expensive. Running is NOT slow, quite the opposite - you run at the same rate that other MMOs give you mounts at.

In other words, if you want to try it - don't trust her. Try it, it's awesome. I've got a large guild, many of whom are ex-COHers, and all of whom love it, on Tarnished Coast, which is the "Virtue" of GW2 as far as being the unofficial RP server.

As for the article in the OP - it has nothing to do with NCsoft of NExon specifically - it is old news, and has to do with EVERY MMO out there. Including COH. The addictive formulas, the flashy rewards, the Skinner box, were all very much present in the game we all loved so much. They're in EVERY MMO. That's how they work.

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #31 on: December 10, 2012, 05:14:36 PM »
You should tell this to the kid that died a few years ago because he kept playing WoW non-stop for several days on nothing but energy drinks. :P
And there are more crazy cases like that out there.
Is it the game's fault? Nope, but some people definitely DO get addicted past the point that is healthy for them.

There have been several cases of this, mostly in internet cafes in Asian countries but the U.S. hasn't been immune to it. Then there's the guy that killed someone else because he thought they stole his online stuff, or the couple that killed their toddler because he or she was taking time away from their gaming. Addiction and/or crazy comes in many different packages.

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #32 on: December 10, 2012, 05:19:56 PM »
Apparently my addictions work differently from the Vegas folk. CoH doesn't fit the addicting game profile, but it's the only one that kept me up long enough that I started to get mentally ill from sleep deprivation.  8)

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #33 on: December 10, 2012, 05:23:35 PM »
I guess my main point is part of the whole bordering-on-unethical manipulation thing.  It's one thing where you pay for access/subscription--you do that with a magazine.  And it's one thing where you pay for a shiny--something that is not necessary for you to enjoy the game but is nice.  It's something else to be deliberately manipulated into a position where you find yourself herded into paying the equivalent of a used car payment every month just so you can "enjoy" a game.
There is a fascinating and creepy article about this same effect that was making the rounds a year or two ago:
http://insertcredit.com/2011/09/22/who-killed-videogames-a-ghost-story/

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #34 on: December 10, 2012, 06:01:10 PM »
You might try slagging off the game a little less. I'm not sure what the problem is, but I've been playing since launch, I've got 2 80s so far, and I feel great playing. I've got 9 characters - because alt-itis doesn't stop with COH - and combat is fantastic, and fluid. I don't know that I could ever go back to another "stand still and push buttons" MMO combat system.

Teleportation is not that expensive. Running is NOT slow, quite the opposite - you run at the same rate that other MMOs give you mounts at.

In other words, if you want to try it - don't trust her. Try it, it's awesome. I've got a large guild, many of whom are ex-COHers, and all of whom love it, on Tarnished Coast, which is the "Virtue" of GW2 as far as being the unofficial RP server.

Yes, because your in-game experiences are worth SO much more than mine.

Sorry, that is not your determination to make; my highest character is level 9, and yes she runs slowly. Quite slowly. Even level 1 unenhanced sprint in CoX was at least twice as fast. Forgive me for being disgusted with the speed of travel in GW2 compared to that of CoX. Not to mention, at least I could level up to Fly eventually - usually after one DFB run. In GW2, even a level 80 is never going to fly.

Never.

I could be level 5 in ten minutes in CoX. Not so in GW2. I am glad you have a huge guild supporting every thing you do and helping you out. Not everyone has that luxury.

GW2 is a pretty game, with good combat. I do not think NCStupid is going to let it live long due to lack of P2P - the money is going to start falling off sharply in a bit, is my guess. Hell, CoX had a THRIVING RMT shop and they STILL killed it. I'm not going to sink roots deeply into that game; after all, this IS the MMOKiller we're talking about.

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2012, 06:07:15 PM »
I think NCsoft may give more of a crap about what happens to GW though. Guild Wars is the stereotypical 'favorite child' of the dysfunctional NCsoft family.

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #36 on: December 10, 2012, 06:10:51 PM »
"Yes, because your in-game experiences are worth SO much more than mine."

Whoa whoa! Let's not be sniping at each other now, hmm? NCSoft is target enough for all of us.

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #37 on: December 10, 2012, 06:19:11 PM »
<Russel> Heeere snipe... *clap, clap, clap* Come out little snipe... *clap, clap, clap*

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #38 on: December 10, 2012, 06:40:55 PM »
"Yes, because your in-game experiences are worth SO much more than mine."

Whoa whoa! Let's not be sniping at each other now, hmm? NCSoft is target enough for all of us.

well for some, old habits die hard. Some forget this isnt the last days of the COX forum here.


Try to remember, people. Every person has traveled a road and even when you put three people o nthe same road, there will be three different views on how good or bad that road is. None is more right than the other just different point of view. Just like to many, COX was a perfect game, to others it was an ok game, some it was merely tolerable, and other it was not worth even playing. Same game same content, different views. 
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 06:45:59 PM by JaguarX »

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #39 on: December 10, 2012, 07:02:19 PM »
Yes, because your in-game experiences are worth SO much more than mine.

Sorry, that is not your determination to make; my highest character is level 9, and yes she runs slowly. Quite slowly. Even level 1 unenhanced sprint in CoX was at least twice as fast. Forgive me for being disgusted with the speed of travel in GW2 compared to that of CoX. Not to mention, at least I could level up to Fly eventually - usually after one DFB run. In GW2, even a level 80 is never going to fly.

Never.

I could be level 5 in ten minutes in CoX. Not so in GW2. I am glad you have a huge guild supporting every thing you do and helping you out. Not everyone has that luxury.

GW2 is a pretty game, with good combat. I do not think NCStupid is going to let it live long due to lack of P2P - the money is going to start falling off sharply in a bit, is my guess. Hell, CoX had a THRIVING RMT shop and they STILL killed it. I'm not going to sink roots deeply into that game; after all, this IS the MMOKiller we're talking about.

The fact is - simple fact - that run-speed in GW2 is quite fast comparable to run speeds in other MMOs. That's just in game-feet-covered-per second measurements. GW2 is also quite a big world, and it's very easy to enhance your run speed with traits, skills and whatnot. Yes, you will never fly - and thank god for that, because it doesn't fit in the context of the game world. I miss flying like crazy, it's the last thing I did before the game ended was just fly around all the zones I loved, but I would never ever want it in GW2. Running and waypoints get me around the world as quick as an Oro portal and a travel power.

Pardon me if I think that, having gotten only to level 9, you don't really have a fully rounded viewpoint of the game to draw on. I'm not saying that in a snarky way, I'm absolutely serious. You've barely brushed the beginning of the game, and it seems you gave up pretty quickly. That's certainly your perogative - I gave up on DDO pretty quickly, it just wasn't a game I could enjoy - but I don't think that gives you a good standing to critique the game.

My guild doesn't "support everything I do" and I don't know where you got that impression. They are fantastic people that I can chat and RP with, and occasionally run dungeons, but 90% of my time is spent in a duo with my best friend (who I met in COH) and we blaze through content. And thanks to the downleveling system (yay for any game stealing any version of sidekicking!!) when several RL friends of mine recently bought the game, I was able to come play alongside them without having to roll new alts, or make their gameplay meaningless, because I was leveled down to their level.

Part of the problem may be that in GW2, the xp isn't in hearts or quests or grinding mobs - it's in world events. As long as you're doing events, you will level in a hurry - if you play it like a traditional theme park MMO, you won't.

As for the cash shop? The game is THREE MONTHS OLD. They've added 3 major content patches for free to the game, one per month, and there's another big holiday content patch hitting on the 14th. They've added things to the store with every patch. There will be more and more added to the store. Do you not remember the days when there were only a few super packs available to be bought, and the sloowwwww rate at which more were added, before COH went F2P?

You have a right to your opinion, and your experience is valid - but your experience is extremely limited. I wouldn't let someone who played through the tutorial of COH and then quit slag that game off without challenging them - and I'll do the same for GW2.

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #40 on: December 10, 2012, 07:05:35 PM »
"Yes, because your in-game experiences are worth SO much more than mine."

Whoa whoa! Let's not be sniping at each other now, hmm? NCSoft is target enough for all of us.

I was annoyed because my experiences were dismissed as irrelevant by someone who does not even know me, and the person responding to me went so far as to announce "don't trust her." That kind of riled me, especially as a bolt out of the blue. I think it would rile anyone. I see what I see, and I'm always honest about it.

Quote
Tim: I think NCsoft may give more of a crap about what happens to GW though. Guild Wars is the stereotypical 'favorite child' of the dysfunctional NCsoft family.

Could well be, I still have lost all trust in NCStupid's long-term maintenance of any game. If a profitable game can get the axe, I can IMAGINE what might happen to one not performing to their expectations.

I am in GW2 because I had purchased it prior to CoX dying, and I use it to distract myself from the very real grief I feel over CoX. Its much more player-friendly than CO, and its eye-blindingly beautiful. It does have faults though, and I'm not going to pretend it does not.

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #41 on: December 10, 2012, 07:19:49 PM »
I was annoyed because my experiences were dismissed as irrelevant by someone who does not even know me, and the person responding to me went so far as to announce "don't trust her." That kind of riled me, especially as a bolt out of the blue. I think it would rile anyone. I see what I see, and I'm always honest about it.

Because what you said was: "If addiction is their intended goal, why is GuildWars2 so..... MAN. Trust me.

Eighty levels. And xp gain there is moderate at best, CoX leveled like lightning compared to this game. It would take me a year of serious solo time to hit level 80."

When you say "trust me" and then say something so hyperbolic that it's mathematically untrue (COH's xp gains ramped up exponentially per level - GW2 does not) then yes, I would in fact urge people not to trust your opinion when deciding to try the game or not.

I played COH from launch to the last day. It DID take a literal YEAR of playing for my first 50 to ding. My first 80 in GW2 happened in under 2 months, and that was spreading time between 9 alts.

I am in GW2 because I had purchased it prior to CoX dying, and I use it to distract myself from the very real grief I feel over CoX. Its much more player-friendly than CO, and its eye-blindingly beautiful. It does have faults though, and I'm not going to pretend it does not.

No one said it has no faults. I disagree with your assessment of those faults, however.

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #42 on: December 10, 2012, 07:41:45 PM »
Uhm dude..

Video games can, and often are, highly addicting. Mental addictions are less detrimental to your health than most chemical additions, but they are no less real. We develop a compulsion for things. Some people grow addicted easier than others. Some can play games for hours a day, every day, and walk away like it's nothing.. others can't though.

I myself was actually addicted to video games at once point in my life. I'm not any more (well, I like to tell myself that at least). I would get antsy, frustrated, sometimes even aggressive if for whatever reason I couldn't play- and I'd get super pissed if something caused a sudden interruption (like cable crapping out). You're right, people don't die from video game withdrawal, but you're also most chemical addictions aren't going to kill you from the withdrawals either (might make you wish you were dead, but that's beside the point).

Games like Farmville and other 'simple, casual online games' tend to have a highly addictive quality to them, partly because that's how they're designed... it's not a "lose control" type thing.. it's a very gradual thing, you don't really notice it- you try the game and you're all "hey, this is kinda fun." and so you play it for a little bit. Then you go play it again, and end up playing longer.. then you're playing it again and you figure "What the hell, I enjoy this game, so I'll throw some money at them for this shiny thing to support a game I enjoy." and you give them $5-20, no big deal. You find you really like what that got you though, and so you throw money at them again.. just like $5-10, not big deal..
Before too long it's escalated and without really thinking about it you're throwing $2-10 at them multiple times a week. Each one of those transactions is little and inconsequential on it's own.. but it adds up fast.
After a months to a year or so, you may not have really noticed it, until someone points out what you're doing.

Now, a normal, well adjusted person can just walk away when that happens, yes.. some people though, can't. Just like some people can't stay off cigarettes. For some, seeing their computer sitting there is just as bad as seeing a bottle of beer for an alcoholic.


You're attributing this behavior to a variable instead of attributing it to a personality flaw. That's behavior of irrational and unbalanced individuals. What the variable was- Video games, television, sports, whatever- Is irrelevant. Anyone with that severe of a personality flaw would have found themselves in the same position whether they played video games or not. You could replace video games with anything- Say, playing the drums. These results you mention are the byproduct of poor character, the variable that exposed said character is immaterial.

For what it's worth, I spent a ton of money on COH. I've been throwing money at Champions Online too. I never went without eating and paying my bills, I never shunned my responsibilities because of it. If I had or did do any of those things, it wouldn't be the fault of a game, it would be a character flaw on my part. I really do like gaming and I really am willing to spend money on it. I also like investing in my education and going to work. I also like eating and paying my bills and having a social life outside of the internet. None of these things are mutually exclusive, and anyone who thinks otherwise is seriously deranged.

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #43 on: December 10, 2012, 07:51:05 PM »
These results you mention are the byproduct of poor character, the variable that exposed said character is immaterial.

Poor character, or perhaps actual mental-illness. Do such distinctions not matter to you?
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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #44 on: December 10, 2012, 07:53:11 PM »
Poor character, or perhaps actual mental-illness. Do such distinctions not matter to you?

I guess. Either way, the point is that you can't blame the variable.

corvus1970

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #45 on: December 10, 2012, 07:53:37 PM »
I appreciate the clarification.
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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #46 on: December 10, 2012, 08:01:18 PM »
I played City for over 8 years.  I only spent money when I had it available.  I wanted Dual Pistols when it first came out but I had to wait two months before I actually had the extra money to spend.  I guess my point is, if you don't set your priorites straight, you can spend way too much on a computer game and eventually over time, it would affect your personal life.  You can't fault any game for mis-management of money.

JaguarX

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #47 on: December 10, 2012, 08:31:11 PM »
I played City for over 8 years.  I only spent money when I had it available.  I wanted Dual Pistols when it first came out but I had to wait two months before I actually had the extra money to spend.  I guess my point is, if you don't set your priorites straight, you can spend way too much on a computer game and eventually over time, it would affect your personal life.  You can't fault any game for mis-management of money.

exactly

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #48 on: December 12, 2012, 09:16:10 AM »
I guess. Either way, the point is that you can't blame the variable.

You have a valid point. And You'll notice I'm NOT against video games, and I acknowledged anything can become an addiction. However dismissing the fact that this specific variable has traits that allow it to readily become more addicting to those who, for whatever reason, are predisposed towards it is also irrational. Especially since the gaming industry IS preying on those people. It is actively trying to make games more.. I don't want to say 'addictive', but we'll say 'compulsive'. You 'have to' work a little more each day to achieve the same satisfaction, you 'have to' throw a little more money at them every time to get the same boost...

It's how certain aspects of the game industry work. Sure, we can say all we want that it's "just the people", but it's both. People who are only mildly predisposed to addictions can get addicted to video games easier than some other things, and that does need to be acknowledged.

I'll not say that "OMG VIDEO GAMES ARE ADDICTING AND SHOULD BE ILLEGAL RAWR!" but I will say that if we're going to acknowledge sexual addictions, gambling addictions, etc. we need to also acknowledge video game addictions as a real thing and have a system in place to offer help. That's all I's saying. :)

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #49 on: December 12, 2012, 12:03:37 PM »
Well most video/computer games are skinner boxes going back to pong and Space Wars (which I remember playing at Shakey's Pizza before the one near me closed  when the chain was bought in 1974), every turn based strategy game I ever played (just a few more turns), rpgs (just until I level/finish this dungeon) and now MMOs (that wasn't an exhaustive list of skinner boxes in video games).  Heck before then there where other coin operated arcade games that were quite addictive not to mention pinball machines.

It's really nothing new and a fundamental aspect of the more popular video/computer games of today.  It's popular because it's addictive.
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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #50 on: December 12, 2012, 07:42:37 PM »
Video games like Farmville and Words With Friends are specifically designed to get people hooked, with the industry even hiring psychiatric professionals to help  make them more addictive .
[...]
This is why City was killed.  It didn't do that.

I don't know... the fact that we cant get over the game may be a hint at them actually doing it  :o

Edit to clarify because just noticed this thread is a bit of flamey: I personally still have not gotten over CoH. HELL... I still have the launcher open in my Mac with the Nature set ad in front....  :'(
For the sake of the community: please stop the cultural "research" in your attempt to put blame on the game's cancelation.

It's sickening to see the community sink that low. It's worse to see the community does not get it.

I'm signing off and taking a break, blindly hope things change.

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #51 on: December 12, 2012, 08:01:51 PM »

You're attributing this behavior to a variable instead of attributing it to a personality flaw. That's behavior of irrational and unbalanced individuals. What the variable was- Video games, television, sports, whatever- Is irrelevant. Anyone with that severe of a personality flaw would have found themselves in the same position whether they played video games or not. You could replace video games with anything- Say, playing the drums. These results you mention are the byproduct of poor character, the variable that exposed said character is immaterial.

Can you stop calling a disease a personality flaw? Your dismissive attitude is pretty sickening.

For what it's worth, I spent a ton of money on COH. I've been throwing money at Champions Online too. I never went without eating and paying my bills, I never shunned my responsibilities because of it. If I had or did do any of those things, it wouldn't be the fault of a game, it would be a character flaw on my part. I really do like gaming and I really am willing to spend money on it. I also like investing in my education and going to work. I also like eating and paying my bills and having a social life outside of the internet. None of these things are mutually exclusive, and anyone who thinks otherwise is seriously deranged.

Uh, good job on not having a disease I guess? What's your point? "Cancer isn't real because I don't have cancer!"? Nobody healthy believes having a hobby and having a life aren't mutually exclusive? Uh, duh?

I'd stated before that I purposefully divided compulsion from addiction because both things are semantically different, but people regardless of that those who have whatever various compulsions (and you're right the medium doesn't matter) have a messed up psychological profile, for various reasons. Often they're that way because of a mix of biology (humans have various levels of susceptibility to compulsion and addictions) and life experiences. It becomes more than a 'personality flaw', it becomes a full out medical condition.

You know what? I did state before that when somebody has a compulsion disorder that I'd rather fix the medical or social problem that brings it out, rather than change and/or punish content creators for exploiting it. And I stick by that, at least the first half of that. But your self important and entirely dismissive posts on the subject have sort of changed my mind.

Because I guarantee that it's your sort of mindset you're displaying here that lets people exploit people with a disease for money, and to make their products in a such a way to bring out that disease in healthy people, for money.

And there does become a sort of point where exploiting or encouraging disease for money crosses the line and does or at least should become unethical.

I tend to err on the side of letting people do what they want with their lives and bodies, because I've been on the receiving end of "I'm gonna run your life because I think you being gay/non-cisgendered/atheist/etc is hurting you sexually/health wise/financially/spiritually/etc". I tend to, as I stated, err on the side of solving a problem in this case by building social and economic conditions where healthy people can flourish, where they can afford therapy or medicine if they need it.

But there comes a point where that's not even enough, and where those gaming companies and other content creators do cross the line and it should be obvious to the common person that hiring psychologists for the explicit purpose of designing games to entrap diseased persons and to cause diseased persons to manifest symptoms is pretty blindingly unethical.

I'm against banning things that are 'fun' based on the idea that somebody with a disease might latch onto it, so, again, my knee-jerk reaction is to side with the video game creators and tell them they have no blame in this. But the more I think about it, the more that these creators are purposefully bringing out this behavior, and that forces them to have blame in this.

And this isn't merely a tragic side effect here of video games being fun, in this case that VV has shown us. They're the intended response as researched by trained professional scientists and doctors hired by the game to make the game design in this way.

This, as I said, isn't a case where a diseased person happens to latch onto and obsess with say, Football just by virtue of football being fun. That would be sad, but I'd have to side with the idea of it not being Football's fault. This is the opposite. This would be like if Football designed all its rules around the idea of entrapping as many people with a disorder as possible.

And you know what? That does make it unethical, completely, and that sort of practice should be banned.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 08:10:50 PM by Osborn »

Starsman

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #52 on: December 12, 2012, 08:39:12 PM »
For the sake of the community: please stop the cultural "research" in your attempt to put blame on the game's cancelation.

It's sickening to see the community sink that low. It's worse to see the community does not get it.

I'm signing off and taking a break, blindly hope things change.

corvus1970

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #53 on: December 12, 2012, 08:43:37 PM »
So maybe we can settle for behavioral disorder?

I'm down with that.

See, I agree that there are indeed "personality flaws". For example, my procrastination? Personality flaw. The fact that I don't tell people "no" as often as I should? Personality flaw.

My diagnosed seasonal depression? Mood disorder, NOT a personality flaw.
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dwturducken

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #54 on: December 12, 2012, 08:50:26 PM »
I thought I was solipsistic, but then I realized it was all in my head.
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #55 on: December 12, 2012, 08:58:53 PM »
I used to have kleptomania, but I took something for it.

corvus1970

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #56 on: December 12, 2012, 09:06:14 PM »
I used to worry that I was paranoid. Turns out they ARE all out to get me!
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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #57 on: December 12, 2012, 09:14:50 PM »
I used to have kleptomania, but I took something for it.


 ;D
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dwturducken

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #58 on: December 12, 2012, 09:28:00 PM »
Hey, the thread needed to be lightened up, cau it was getting a bit lit up!


 ;D

I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #59 on: December 12, 2012, 09:30:34 PM »
City Of Heroes was abnormal.
This topic, along with many others that have been (and will be) raised about its abnormality and lack of being an appropriate match for certain corporate philosophies is all due to this game being a product that 1) doesn't fit perfectly into the round holes and 2) proves that things don't need to fit into round holes and/or follow the same formula in order to be successful, enjoyable and loved (obsessively by rabid, money-throwing fans who refuse to give up long after it has been axed).

The easy targets are easy... and efficient. And that's what the majority of money-makers will target. It is the min/max-ing of the real world.
However, just like our beloved game, the real world works in more ways than just min/max-ing, FotM, specific archetypes, et cetera and so on and so forth...  :P

There are people who don't want pop up ads in front of their faces, people who don't want to sit in front of one-armed-bandits, people who enjoy smelling the roses, people who enjoy taking it slow, people who just love to fly, people who want to spend more time playing make believe and many, many, many more variances of people with a multitude of expansive interests, likes and dislikes... and, they all have money and are potential customers.
It's just a lot harder for some people to accept that, for people to market to all of that and for people to pinpoint their narrow focus upon it with their over-thought and over-paid expertise;)

That's why it often comes back to saying that CoH satisfied a niche market.
Truth be told, that niche contained a wide variety of interests and there are vast amounts of so called niche customers in this world who quietly sit aghast at the majority of things people are trying to sell them.

It's just too big a hurdle for most people/companies to bother with... so, they follow the formulas for what they know works... except for when it doesn't... and then they carry on, trimming more variety off of the formula and/or tacking on bits from past formulas that had some success in their day.
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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #60 on: December 12, 2012, 09:34:47 PM »
"Addiction is not medically recognized as a disease."

I have a paranoid suspicion that too many people profit from exploiting such diseases for them to ever be labeled disease.

Although I've never experienced it, I've seen chemical addiction up close. Imagine someone dear to you, otherwise dynamic and strong-willed, hopelessly compelled to repeat the same obviously self-destructive behaviors until it extinguishes livelihood, health and finally life.

All those supernatural tales of corrupting mind control, like Dracula's hypnotism or the Ring of Power, it's like that exits the world of fantasy into day-to-day life. Stephen King has confessed that all his bump-in-the-night creatures are all just manifestations of his former addictions.

It's a form of slavery, like the slavery the US was founded on just mutated into another form, one where you can't see the chains.

I know that sounds overwrought and hysterical, but addiction seriously horrifies me. That's why my personal "firewall" is so high. And based on that experience, I say addiction's a disease. Can computer games exert that kind of compulsion? Dunno. Maybe it depends upon an individual's particular susceptibilities. I'd need to see the patient to know.

Certainly, CoH was not addictive for me. If I saw the symptoms, I'd rip my modem out of the wall.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 09:44:04 PM by Colette »

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #61 on: December 12, 2012, 09:36:58 PM »
That's why it often comes back to saying that CoH satisfied a niche market.
Truth be told, that niche contained a wide variety of interests and there are vast amounts of so called niche customers in this world who quietly sit aghast at the majority of things people are trying to sell them.

Yes, it certainly satisfied multiple niches. After all, in CoX you could be almost anything to wanted and play it almost any way you wanted.
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Zombie Man

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #62 on: December 13, 2012, 01:54:19 AM »
I used to have kleptomania, but I took something for it.

Jurisprudence fetishists gets off on a technicality.

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #63 on: December 13, 2012, 02:09:51 AM »
Just this.  This is what I have a problem with.:

Quote
lets people exploit people with a disease for money, and to make their products in a such a way to bring out that disease in healthy people, for money.

And there does become a sort of point where exploiting or encouraging disease for money crosses the line and does or at least should become unethical.
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Segev

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #64 on: December 13, 2012, 02:06:01 PM »
the slavery the US was founded on
*cough* The US wasn't founded on slavery. It was founded in freedom. Even at its founding, there was a sizeable force that opposed the practice; it just was not yet so pervasive even in the South that it was garnering national interest over the concerns of economic and political slavery to England. Sorry for derailing with this argument; I just strongly object to having my nation's founding made out to be steeped in something loathsome when, in fact, it is one of the brightest points in human history.

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #65 on: December 13, 2012, 03:15:38 PM »
There were, in fact, heated arguments during both constitutional conventions over how to handle the "citizenship" of slaves.  (I used the quotes because, obviously, they were not granted citizenship status until the 14th amendment.)
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

Segev

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #66 on: December 13, 2012, 03:18:55 PM »
There were, in fact, heated arguments during both constitutional conventions over how to handle the "citizenship" of slaves.  (I used the quotes because, obviously, they were not granted citizenship status until the 14th amendment.)
Indeed.

Colette

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #67 on: December 13, 2012, 03:44:40 PM »
"The US wasn't founded on slavery."

Tut! I've told y'all a thousand times what hyperbole is.

But because you object, I'll rephrase. "...the slavery the US was infected with since its inception." Content?

dwturducken

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I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

Segev

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #69 on: December 13, 2012, 03:57:43 PM »
"The US wasn't founded on slavery."

Tut! I've told y'all a thousand times what hyperbole is.

But because you object, I'll rephrase. "...the slavery the US was infected with since its inception." Content?
Quite. [redacts himself before he carries it further]

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #70 on: December 14, 2012, 06:14:17 PM »
*cough* The US wasn't founded on slavery. It was founded in freedom. Even at its founding, there was a sizeable force that opposed the practice; it just was not yet so pervasive even in the South that it was garnering national interest over the concerns of economic and political slavery to England. Sorry for derailing with this argument; I just strongly object to having my nation's founding made out to be steeped in something loathsome when, in fact, it is one of the brightest points in human history.

except the part about killing off/relocating a certain group of people to expand the nation. But I think that is total different ball game here. The point being, even the great founding of this country, on freedom, wasnt absolutely free of loathsome behavior.

Segev

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #71 on: December 14, 2012, 06:58:33 PM »
The "westward expansion" was not "the founding of this nation."

Not denying there were dark things that happened alongside the great things. But I won't have the founding and its principles sullied by inaccurate attempts to lay blame for things not part nor parcel to it.

JaguarX

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #72 on: December 14, 2012, 07:10:43 PM »
The "westward expansion" was not "the founding of this nation."

Not denying there were dark things that happened alongside the great things. But I won't have the founding and its principles sullied by inaccurate attempts to lay blame for things not part nor parcel to it.

Wasn't actually talking about the westward expansion as that is a whole different animal in itself.
 
I was meaning the part where they docked in a port and branched out from there. There were people already there even in the original 13, even in the first one and it wasn't exactly a friendly exchange of people already there just handing over their land.

But one of those principles that cant be denied when the country was founded is that minorities and other groups like women were not considered "equal" or afforded rights of what was described as god given natural rights of all men that this country was founded on.

Segev

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #73 on: December 14, 2012, 08:53:20 PM »
The assertion that "minorities" were not considered equal is...flawed. Black slaves were not, and I think blacks in general were painted with the broad brush to enable the justification of the dehumanizing practice of slavery, but recall that this was under hot contention even back then. Other minorities, if they were citizens of the colonies and not some other national identity, were NOT considered unequal. I'm not going to get into the male/female business, because the attitude back then was not atypical of...anywhere in the world. The Christian/Chivalric respect for womanhood and the gentler sex was, if anything, head and shoulders above what many other cultures followed at the time.

Was it perfect? No, nothing ever is. But it was not steeped in anything grotesque or horrific that serves to taint the founding of this nation, and I still won't allow the pretense that it was. This nation was founded on high ideals of freedom and respect for the individual's right to make his own choices and reap the benefits and penalties thereof. It was, at the time and in view of history leading up to it, the single most progressive and liberated set of philosophies ever created, and it set the course for many of the future emancipations and improvements of equality that came after. Far from being founded on slavery or inequality, this nation was founded in freedom and equality of opportunity unparalleled by anything at its time.

If one is going to try to claim it to be steeped in sin and ignorance and inequality, one may as well compare the founding to today in terms of technology and call people of that time moronic buffoons for not having iPhones and airplanes.

corvus1970

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #74 on: December 14, 2012, 09:11:35 PM »
Hrms...

Perhaps this slavery sidebar could be spun off into its own thread?
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JaguarX

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #75 on: December 14, 2012, 09:12:22 PM »

Was it perfect? No, nothing ever is. But it was not steeped in anything grotesque or horrific that serves to taint the founding of this nation, and I still won't allow the pretense that it was. This nation was founded on high ideals of freedom and respect for the individual's right to make his own choices and reap the benefits and penalties thereof. It was, at the time and in view of history leading up to it, the single most progressive and liberated set of philosophies ever created, and it set the course for many of the future emancipations and improvements of equality that came after.

No doubt about that.  Although there were some horrible parts, it was the ideals that founded this nation that is powerful. And that is what makes it a great thing. I dont think anywhere in the history of man can something great be pointed to without it's bloody parts. Alexander the Great, considered a great person, a hero, but him and his army killed thousands to reach his goal. Caesar, another person that is considered a hero to mythical proportions was not exactly a saint and wasnt above having people executed in horrible manners. The Roman Empire, river flowed red with blood of enemies and desenters, and women and children but it still doesnt take away fro mthe magnificant achievement. It's acceptance of it as a whole the good and bad that does those great achievements great justice. but at the same time ignoring the hardship of the blacks, and natives during the founding of this country is a disservice to them. No great achievement is perfect. And tha tis what makes it great IMO.

Even now, are there somethings that can be better in this country, of course. Are there other places that are worse, of course. Is it perfect here, hell to the no. Is this a great country nonetheless, hell yeah.

And you're right, I said minorites for the natives and blacks at the times. I dont think the Asians was arriving in great numbers yet that I know of. The Natives were not even considered citizens and blacks were not counted until later for southern House seat purposes.

but tying in slavery with the topic and addiction, some would say that addiction is some form of slavery even thoug hthe ideal is that everyone is free to come and go. A point of a game, and the great part of any game is it's addictive quality or else you would not have people coming back again over and over for years on end. I think eventually game addiction will get classified as an official psy problem and if asked ten twelve years ago if this was an abstract idea I would probably have said yes. But now, we even have dog psychologist, and given that games are on the rise, especially ones that allow people to never even have to be next to a person to conversate, it will get to the point where it will be officially classified as an addiction. Remember at one point, Cocaine addiction was something that was said to be overblown. Even Coca-Cola said back in the day that their drinks was safe and not addicting in anyway (back when it contained cocaine, although i nrelatively small amounts and was a n exlixer to decrease the appetitie and increase awareness, like cocaine was supposed to do.) Now it's considered crazy to say that cocaine and other drugs are not addicting. Games will soon get to that point but more onthe level of coffee addiction or food addiction I say.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 09:17:31 PM by JaguarX »

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #76 on: December 14, 2012, 11:13:31 PM »
The "westward expansion" was not "the founding of this nation."

Not denying there were dark things that happened alongside the great things. But I won't have the founding and its principles sullied by inaccurate attempts to lay blame for things not part nor parcel to it.

Can we quit and as a nation get over this doey eyed jingoistic exceptionalism where we can pretend nothing bad ever happened, nothing bad still happens, or if we acknowledge it, it didn't 'count' because the ends (for you) justified the means (to them)?

And just.. acknowledge that, no matter how good things are now, we as a people busted a lot of eggs to make that omelet? Maybe show a bit of humility towards the sacrifice others made for us against their will to help make this country what it is today?

I'm not asking for you to be ashamed of what you have now, really. The past is done with, and we should be more concerned with working towards the future. But that said, if we can't even acknowledge problems within our past so we can whitewash it to make ourselves feel better about it with the intention of pretending we were always perfect (and when we weren't it was aberrant), you pretty much guarantee that we're going to do something terrible today or in the future.

The country was founded with slavery as a major concession to keep it together. Yes, later, other people decided that was bad and stopped it, and yes later, other people still decided that the treatment of minorities afterwards was bad and have worked and are still working to fix it. So yes, good things came out of it in the end, I suppose, but that doesn't erase the history.

You trying to ignore the history to pretend that everything was perfect from day one belittles the hard work that ended up making this country what it is today, and like I said, guarantees that it's going to relapse. It belittles those still working working today to get fair treatment.

I don't see how you expect us as a people to improve if you pretend that we're already perfect and always have been.

But tying in slavery with the topic and addiction, some would say that addiction is some form of slavery even though the ideal is that everyone is free to come and go. A point of a game, and the great part of any game is it's addictive quality or else you would not have people coming back again over and over for years on end. I think eventually game addiction will get classified as an official psychological problem and if asked ten twelve years ago if this was an abstract idea I would probably have said yes. But now, we even have dog psychologist, and given that games are on the rise, especially ones that allow people to never even have to be next to a person to converse, it will get to the point where it will be officially classified as an addiction. Remember at one point, Cocaine addiction was something that was said to be overblown. Even Coca-Cola said back in the day that their drinks was safe and not addicting in anyway (back when it contained cocaine, although in relatively small amounts and was an elixir to decrease the appetite and increase awareness, like cocaine was supposed to do.) Now it's considered crazy to say that cocaine and other drugs are not addicting. Games will soon get to that point but more on the level of coffee addiction or food addiction I say.

Again, I don't find that games, done properly or fairly are in and of themselves inherently bad. I don't find gambling or most vices in moderation to be. Nobody wants to shut down the State Fair or Chuck-E-Cheeses even though with tickets and prizes they're basically children's casinos with rides or ball pits. It takes somebody already predisposed towards compulsion and obsession (for various reasons) to get 'addicted' to things, at which point I find that one should treat the compulsion, no the object of the compulsion.

Because almost anything can be the focus of compulsion disorders. The focus itself is immaterial. That's why I started my posts in this thread with an almost knee jerk defense of video games.

But that's not what we're dealing with here. We're not dealing with 'ordinary games'. We're dealing with games, designed by medical doctors, specifically to make them unhealthy, specifically to trap people with disorders and specifically to help bring out disorders in people who have a predisposition towards, but no manifestation of said. That is a very big difference. And it honestly crosses the line to becoming an unethical one.

This isn't somebody getting you to come back to their soda or food because it tastes good and fills you up, with the tragic side effect that some people predisposed towards compulsion latching onto the food and getting unhealthy. This is closer to the situation of them getting a medical team or a scientific team together to chemically engineer the food to make people who are otherwise healthy addicted.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 11:25:38 PM by Osborn »

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #77 on: December 14, 2012, 11:17:25 PM »
See the mind-control is working.

They've gotten you to forget CoH.

corvus1970

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #78 on: December 14, 2012, 11:23:24 PM »
I'd really like it if, again, that tangent was spun off elsewhere or just dropped. Its not productive in this thread.

So, please?
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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #79 on: December 15, 2012, 02:06:35 AM »
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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #80 on: December 15, 2012, 03:03:33 AM »
City of Heroes definitely did not fit into the "room full of slot machines" mold of Asian MMOs. It was more like a playground than a gambling den. And, unlike many other MMOs, it was playground remarkably free of bullies as well. This was why I think it was uniquely suited to family play.