City of Heroes 2

[JediWar]

Okay, someone please forgive me here, I feel like I'm being a complete moron asking this, but after a little searching through backlog and topics that I get a "warning: do not post here, topic is old. Start a new one" I finally decided to bite down on my ignorance and declare that the only stupid question is the question not asked. This is NOT to be confused with the "New City of Heroes" thread, which is also a hot topic right now. This has nothing to do with that.

Some time back, near the start of 2012 I think, I heard rumors that NCsoft had purchased up all the rights to "City of Heroes 2". The idea at the time being that it would be possible that NCsoft was going to make a sequel to their popular and profitable City of Heroes, which was for an MMO, getting kinda old and outdated. The engine wasn't perfect, the graphics even after being revamped were only keeping up with modern games, etc.

So, I'm still possibly in denial here, but am I the only one hoping that there IS a City of Heroes 2 in the works?

First of all, while I may be in denial, I'm fully aware that NCsoft has made some... let's say questionable motions... if that indeed was their plan. Laying off the developers and giving the current player base this kind of treatment is generally bad form all around. It's possible they weren't certain that the sequel could be produced, and they certainly couldn't activate it without ending City of Heroes "1" anyway. Not to mention that there should have been far more warning than this shut down which, despite being three months warning, still felt very sudden and forced in my opinion. So, yes, it's more likely that they simply aren't going to produce one, and the copy rights are there simply to sit in all possible versions of their IP.

This, quite frankly, looks foolish to me. The super hero genre MMO market isn't exactly saturated, and a strong contender could probably make good profit(better than a fantasy MMO I'd think). City of Heroes has brand recognition and a loyal(if perhaps not huge enough) fan base to give you a starter, and if the game is good new arrivals will bring profit. Just sitting on resources seems like a bad move when they could be making you profit. Unless I'm missing something important here.

Now, before I ramble on more, I think I'll close by repeating myself: Despite all appearances, there may be a City of Heroes 2 somewhere in production by NCsoft, and even if there is not, I would like there to be one(by NCsoft or otherwise). Is there any way that this can be helped along? Could I at least have news on the subject and confirmation/denial of these rumors of a City of Heroes 2 copyright purchase?

Short of "Plan Z" of course, which as I understand it is... not a City of Heroes 2 and can not reuse existing City of Heroes IP, code, or non-public domain resources. I intend to do a bit more looking into what Plan Z is, since I admit that I don't quite fully understand it at the moment(yes, even after reading the FAQs). To be frank, I'd rather we not NEED a Plan Z...

[downix]

I'm the tech lead on Plan Z, and I'd rather we not need a Plan Z. But frankly, without Paragon Studios, any CoH2 will be a CoH in name only.

[Jetfire99]

If they made a COH 2 without Paragon it's just a body stealer wearing our world's skin. Nothing more. A wizzend grind hell husk really.

[Lily Barclay]

It was my understanding that NCSoft wanted Paragon to make CoH 2, but then nixed it for the super sekrit project. If they were developing CoH 2, they wouldn't have shut down paragon. End of story. It's just a rumor.

[JaguarX]

If they made a COH 2 without Paragon it's just a body stealer wearing our world's skin. Nothing more. A wizzend grind hell husk really.

might be what they up to. WoW with super hero skin that is to make every american gamer scramble to it and make them 10s of millions a quarter while becoming king of the hill of the MMO world.

At least in their minds might be how it supposed to work out if there is some coh 2 in the works. But they probably figured our group dont like grind and decided to dispose of us so we would be out the way, so they thought.

but I havea feeling if they do make a game of sort, it probably wont be called COH 2 and or they might use pieces of the IP in various other future projects.

[downix]

It was my understanding that NCSoft wanted Paragon to make CoH 2, but then nixed it for the super sekrit project. If they were developing CoH 2, they wouldn't have shut down paragon. End of story. It's just a rumor.

Backwards, Paragon wanted to do CoH2, it was NCSoft who said no.

[JediWar]

But frankly, without Paragon Studios, any CoH2 will be a CoH in name only.

I... semantically... disagree with that statement. Keeping in mind that it's entirely semantics here, but Paragon Studios is meaningless. It wasn't even a part of City of Heroes during the early years of the game. The important part is the people who worked for Paragon Studios and the relationships they had that was passed on to City of Heroes. I also believe that no one member of the Paragon Studios team is beyond replacement. It hurt to see Jack Emmert go, but Matt Miller took the reigns and, in my opinion, made improvements. It's the group of people and the spirit of community, not the name of the studio, that's important.

Laying off all of Paragon Studios is the most major sign that there will be no City of Heroes 2(or City of Heroes "1" obviously), but in my mind it is not definitive proof(again, I may just be in denial). The studio is gone, but the people are still alive, and can be hired by or even create another studio. I really hope that they ARE hired by someone who can put to use their talents and passions. For all I know some of them have have been hired, shuffled into a different division of NCsoft that is working on a project that NCsoft isn't ready to disclose yet. A project that may be City of Heroes 2(though highly doubtful given NCsofts statements and actions, I readily admit).

I really hate to think that they've been out of work longer than I have(I was laid off just last month and looking through job prospects for a character animator is... depressing).

[LuchRi]

The way I see it CoH was bigger than any studio, or individual. It was developed before WoW colored everything for every MMO afterwards (at least in our market) and everything form the mechanics to the story to the community was unique in part because of that. NCsoft probably will not make a CoH2, but if anyone does then I can all but promise you it would have a chance if the people making it are passionate about the game. If they are willing to put the same love and care and devotion into the craft that we saw from paragon then it will be a game worth playing.

I can understand why people are apprehensive. Not everyone has that kind of love or passion for a craft. It is easy to assume that any new game would be shucked off to just some random faceless 'new guys'. But even if they sell it, even if CoH2 gets made with few or none of the people who were involved before I truely think it could have the same spirit, the same community and the same unimaginable devotion we saw before.

I mean honestly, how many other MMOs come out with a new power set every month?

[Victoria Victrix]

Paragon Studios, at the time of my visit, was working on the initial proposal for CoH2.  I got to see some spiffy concept art.  NCSoft then told them in no uncertain terms that they were not to work on it.  They then got to work on the Secret Project (there were actually two) and were working on both at the time of shutdown.

The rights to CoH2 go with the IP/code/customer data of CoH should there be a buyer.

[JediWar]

And this "Secret Project(s)" will never see the light of day because the studio who was working on it has been shut down.

. . . and since NCsoft refuses to SELL, there will be no buyer, thus it's not possible for anyone to have the rights to CoH2, the IP, the code, or even these Secret Projects.

Unless of course someone from Paragon Studios(or better yet NCsoft) would care to leak the behind the scenes information and explain things.

Well... thanks for answering to the best of public knowledge at least. At least my question wasn't misplaced.

[Osborn]

Okay, someone please forgive me here, I feel like I'm being a complete moron asking this, but after a little searching through backlog and topics that I get a "warning: do not post here, topic is old. Start a new one" I finally decided to bite down on my ignorance and declare that the only stupid question is the question not asked. This is NOT to be confused with the "New City of Heroes" thread, which is also a hot topic right now. This has nothing to do with that.

Some time back, near the start of 2012 I think, I heard rumors that NCsoft had purchased up all the rights to "City of Heroes 2". The idea at the time being that it would be possible that NCsoft was going to make a sequel to their popular and profitable City of Heroes, which was for an MMO, getting kinda old and outdated. The engine wasn't perfect, the graphics even after being revamped were only keeping up with modern games, etc.

So, I'm still possibly in denial here, but am I the only one hoping that there IS a City of Heroes 2 in the works?

First of all, while I may be in denial, I'm fully aware that NCsoft has made some... let's say questionable motions... if that indeed was their plan. Laying off the developers and giving the current player base this kind of treatment is generally bad form all around. It's possible they weren't certain that the sequel could be produced, and they certainly couldn't activate it without ending City of Heroes "1" anyway. Not to mention that there should have been far more warning than this shut down which, despite being three months warning, still felt very sudden and forced in my opinion. So, yes, it's more likely that they simply aren't going to produce one, and the copy rights are there simply to sit in all possible versions of their IP.

This, quite frankly, looks foolish to me. The super hero genre MMO market isn't exactly saturated, and a strong contender could probably make good profit(better than a fantasy MMO I'd think). City of Heroes has brand recognition and a loyal(if perhaps not huge enough) fan base to give you a starter, and if the game is good new arrivals will bring profit. Just sitting on resources seems like a bad move when they could be making you profit. Unless I'm missing something important here.

Now, before I ramble on more, I think I'll close by repeating myself: Despite all appearances, there may be a City of Heroes 2 somewhere in production by NCsoft, and even if there is not, I would like there to be one(by NCsoft or otherwise). Is there any way that this can be helped along? Could I at least have news on the subject and confirmation/denial of these rumors of a City of Heroes 2 copyright purchase?

Short of "Plan Z" of course, which as I understand it is... not a City of Heroes 2 and can not reuse existing City of Heroes IP, code, or non-public domain resources. I intend to do a bit more looking into what Plan Z is, since I admit that I don't quite fully understand it at the moment(yes, even after reading the FAQs). To be frank, I'd rather we not NEED a Plan Z...

It would be monumentally stupid of them to close CoH in the absolutely clownish way they have and drive away customers then wait until the close date on November 30th to announce CoH 2, and more importantly fire all of Paragon Studios destroying their development chain, so I wouldn't put a lot of my hopes in this happening. And if it did, with NCSoft involved but not Paragon Studios, I'm not even sure they'd get the game right.

If somebody buys the IP they might make something like this, but the chances of NCSoft doing so is kind of ridiculously tiny.

This would be like if Wal-Mart fired all their associates and set their stores on fire as a method if introducing a new improved meat department. I mean I guess it's not 'impossible', but... it seems highly unlikely.

I'm sorry if that seemed mean or dampened your hopes.

[Lily Barclay]

Backwards, Paragon wanted to do CoH2, it was NCSoft who said no.

That's what I meant.  They nixed = NCSoft nixed it.  Wasn't sure who originally proposed the project, my bad. 

[JediWar]

It would be monumentally stupid of them to close CoH in the absolutely clownish way they have and drive away customers then wait until the close date on November 30th to announce CoH 2, and more importantly fire all of Paragon Studios destroying their development chain, so I wouldn't put a lot of my hopes in this happening. And if it did, with NCSoft involved but not Paragon Studios, I'm not even sure they'd get the game right.

I quite agree that such a move would be monumentally stupid. Though I'd like to point out that NCsoft isn't known for making the best of business choices, and additionally I'm a little fuzzy on what it means by "fire all of Paragon Studios". I was under the impression the studio was dissolved, but the employees were not "fired" but "laid off" or "downsized"(narrow distinction I'll admit, but being fired means that it was somehow your fault you are without a job. Being laid off means that it was the fault of the company you worked for, you did good work, they're just not doing that anymore), and could have been folded into another studio. I'd like to hope they've found work in another studio by now in fact. I don't have any information on the individuals that made up Paragon Studios however, or what their job situation is at this moment.

Now, in BEST case scenario, that means that most of the Paragon Studios employees just transferred to a different studio where they could work on the City of Heroes 2. The best case almost certainly didn't happen, but some creative bookkeeping could be taking place that I don't know about, which is why I brought this question up here. I don't know what's happening in NCsofts mind. I wanted to know if anyone else here had a better insight, since most people here seem better informed than I.

This would be like if Wal-Mart fired all their associates and set their stores on fire as a method if introducing a new improved meat department. I mean I guess it's not 'impossible', but... it seems highly unlikely.

A better analogy would be that if Wal-Mart fired all of their associates and set their store on fire and then after the fire had died down admitted that a new store that was being built(in secret) five blocks away. Unlikely, wasteful, and foolish, but not HIGHLY unlikely.

[Victoria Victrix]

The 60 of the 80ish Paragon Studios people have gotten jobs at my last hearing, but they all scattered to different places and a couple aren't even in gaming.

[redgiant]

No company would disband the kind of person-decades of proven expertise in designing, coding, testing and running a major complex MMOlike this, unless they knew there was zero chance of utilizing their talents for an IP sequel. You would lose years of real-time in getting another project to market.

It really is criminal to disband a talent pool like PS, it was one of the best on Earth. Not only could they have made CoH2, they could probably make anything (although their hearts might not be in it as much). Personally, I had a fantasy that I gave PS $10 million and said "Call me when DAoC 2 is done ... the right way!"

I know from being a dev for 30 years that the nostalgia and tears we as players are having are one facet of losing CoH. Imagine what the devs who worked forever on this and know everything ever put into it on the inside, from art to features as well as being players too. Someone at PS designed the pink sprinkle texture for the Drenched Donuts sign, someone coded the laser lights in Pocket D, and someone recalls when they planted specific trees or erected buildings and why. A dev excitedly calling over others to look at his cool new powerset he'd been working on for days. Inside jokes we'll never even know about and I am certain that it ripped 80 hearts out when this happened.

[Technerdoc]

Even when a City of Heroes 2 is in develpment from an other studio then it will be a different game, but I don't think that NC-Soft is that stupid. Guild Wars 1 is also still running, they can't close it when they still want to sell part 2 and here it's the same. You want the community for part 2, so you can't close their game fire the entire stuff and then you want that the people still playing a World of Warcraft like City of Heroes 2 from an other studio? This is not working and I think NC-Soft is clever enough to know this.

My only hope was that an other publisher crap the Paragon Studios, something like "We can't have the City of Heroes IP, so make us a new game", but now with the entire team gone in the wind, I give up this hope as well.

I think our only way is Plan Z right now.

[Lord Xoddam]

I remember rumors of a CoH 2 in the works by Cryptic Studios back in '07. It was pondered and talked about on and off for a couple of years all the building anticipation and worries about what would happen to our CoH. Would it be an expantion to the existing game or would it be its own game? Then the day finally came and it was released with the name Champions Online. City of Heroes players felt like they got slapped in the face. Anyone else remember that?

[Evangel - Project 7]

Studios will often buy rights to things with little or no intent of actually making them - just for an "in case" scenario. When Paragon purchased the city of heroes 2 domain name and trademarks they did so just to avoid having to buy them from someone else in the event that the game ever was made. An online game hosted on a server with regular updates has no inherent need to have a sequel - the game is always refreshing. The only purpose would be to rewrite the main code but there was really no need to do that.

They also optioned movie, television, and other rights but again I wouldn't ever get excited about those possibilities either - it's just something companies do to prepare for potential future projects.


Go. Hunt. Record CoH.
Evangel | Infinity Server

[ohms]

Nate Van Dyke posted some CoH2 concept art on his blog back in 2008. The post soon got deleted but I snagged copies of the pictures like this one:

[Sajaana]

I wouldn't put it outside of the realm of possibility.

To me, the closing of Paragon Studios doesn't make the launching of a CoH 2 less likely.  Given the recent trends of many Asian companies to repatriate their workforces, it could be that they'd rather have future titles developed on home soil.

If this was their intent, to develop a sucessor to CoH in Korea, it would make sense to keep the plan under wraps until they decomission Paragon, specifically because it would cause a lot of consternation.  After all, it was developed by American development houses (Cryptic and Paragon) for the American market.

But a whole lot has happened in the world economy in the last few years.  Good jobs were lost and there has been a scramble by nations to repatriate whatever jobs they can, usually by providing tax breaks or enforcing tax penalties.

For example, take Honda's Goldwing.  It was developed as a niche American product, manufactured in Marysville, Ohio.  But the recession caused Honda, like every other manufacturer with holdings overseas, to prioritize domestic production and domestic jobs.  So they pulled out of Marysville, but just because they pulled out of Marysville doesn't mean they stopped the Goldwing.  They still make Goldwings and are developing them further, but they do this in Japan.

Might the same thing happen with CoH 2?  It wasn't very feasable for NCSoft to shut down Arena or the Wildstar people, since they were already well into their development cycles and so much money has to be recouped there.  Paragon might have been easier to justify.  But just because Paragon was shut down doesn't mean they wouldn't do something with a successor to CoH.  It might mean that they really want a successor to CoH, but they don't want Paragon to do it.  For political reasons, more than anything else.