Author Topic: A response to NCsoft  (Read 171058 times)

Floride

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 863
  • Badgehunter Extraordinaire
Re: CAPS LOCK vs. arguments
« Reply #320 on: October 09, 2012, 06:26:28 PM »
If someone says there's no hope he will only upset those who, deep down, believe he's right and are just here to lie to themselves. Negative posts get a ton more replies than actual ideas posted here do. I know this because aside from this post, all my other posts have been new ideas.

So I'm gonna join in the fun!

It's a short list: play the game as if you loved it like you say you love it

THIS!
Too many people have stopped playing. I'm helping friends get their 45's to 50's with little to no other help because attendance in-game has shot way down. I spend more time playing the game than on any forums, I don't believe that's true for many here. I'm going to play until the lights go out, but i think a lot of people who said the same thing actually meant "when" and not "until".
Notice, I'm not agreeing with Frank. I'm agreeing with something he said. There's a difference.
History shows again and again
How nature points out the folly of men

void hunter

  • Guest
Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #321 on: October 09, 2012, 06:27:05 PM »
This thread has already deviated off course quite enough.

Yeah, I got upset (imagine that on a forum), and got into an argument. Then my posts were deleted, but most of the other posts were left in tact, even the ones that took it further than mine. I got upset and deleted my account, but then tried to restore it and was unable so I made another one.

What course was this thread on that it's been derailed from? This is a "response" thread right? Isn't that what's happening here, people are responding to the statement and to each other. It's not like this is polluting the sunset thread or anything else. If you only wanted people to agree, then you should ask members not to openly invite people from CoH to here. Sometimes you have to be the irritant that causes the oyster to create a pearl. Is this not what you're trying to do with NCSoft? If that's the case, then some of us are trying to do it with the rest of us. Believe it or not, I HAVE thrown out ideas for what the most logical path should be. I've tried to ask if anyone actually had the real figures or knew an answer. I guess I don't understand why it's only when people show this kind of approach that the mods step in and close it down.

Moonfyire101

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 296
Re: CAPS LOCK vs. arguments
« Reply #322 on: October 09, 2012, 06:27:34 PM »
If you decided to stop carrying one particular pet because you decided it wasn't cost effective, or more of a pain than it was worth (for whatever reason), would your existing few customers that bought that one pet change your mind by throwing a fit and saying they wanted you to give them all of the supplies to this type of pet, without even showing you enough money?

Actually there were a few times i took a loss on certain animals just to keep the customers coming back. It's called good customer service.

And as far as your comment "would your existing few customers that bought that one pet change your mind by throwing a fit and saying they wanted you to give them all of the supplies to this type of pet, without even showing you enough money?" we tried to work with them.

And anyway how is that point valid at all? We tried to work with those who were upset for whatever reason; NCSOft hasn't tried to work with us at all. WE have been given NO opportunity whatsoever to show we would pay for whatever it took. They shut us down and showed no effort.



« Last Edit: October 09, 2012, 06:34:53 PM by Moonfyire101 »

Segev

  • Plan Z: Interim Producer
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,573
Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #323 on: October 09, 2012, 06:30:04 PM »
I didn't say don't try anything, but what you "know" is based off of hearsay. How do you know that the amount offered was sufficient? Because people on here said they heard it was from a friend? The best attempt would have been to make sure there was enough money, by participating. The only people that know for sure are the involved parties, which NONE of us are. If we would have started with the group funding thing, we would have known better, but we don't and we're using other people's hearsay as evidence that our hearsay is real.
It's not "heard it from a friend." And what we know is that there were very sticky issues being hammered out, according to Tony who, IIRC, cited Brian as his source. There has been speculation about those sticky issues, but it's fairly clear that it's more than "just money." "Just money" doesn't take any hammering out.

Nor is "exhausting all options" generally code for "they just didn't offer enough money." It's pretty easy to state "nobody was both willing and able to make a sufficiently large offer." That would indicate a willingness to sell and be a GOOD way to start a bidding war if they were at all interested just because of money.

You admit yourself that you operate from a point of ignorance. Therefore, your assumption that the only possible reason is "nobody offered enough money" is just that: an assumption. It is one you base on solid reasoning and guesswork, but it is not more inherently correct than reasoned theories that involve other, non-sale-price-related considerations, especially given what we do know from NCSoft's own official statements and actions.

As for crowd-funding, more than one of us looked into it and were cautioned to back off. So we did. We have offered to get back to it should Paragon have needed it. They did not ask. If it had purely been a matter of money, then they probably would have asked, or done crowd-sourcing of their own.

They're not emotionally charged like us. They make decisions based on things like money and liability. If their terms were unreasonable, then I guess the purchaser didn't want the game bad enough as well.
That's an odd way of putting it. If they asked for exclusive ownership of the moon and sovereignty over all of Asia to be delivered by military force funded at any cost by the purchaser, would that mean the purchaser "didn't want the game bad enough?"

Or would it mean there were terms over which agreement literally could not be reached? (I'm not suggesting NCSoft was as unreasonable in their requirements as the above; it was deliberate hyperbole to make the point that "unreasonable demands" do not mean the other party "doesn't want it badly enough.")

The point is we don't know either way. People shouldn't be so desperate that they take any rumor as truth. If you can't lend anything of substance to the acquisition, then you really can't do anything. At best, you're a distraction. At worst, you're a reason why the seller would back away from the table.
This is nonsense. If these people are as reasoned and unemotional about it as you said earlier, impassioned fans who are desperately searching for anything to save their game are only more reason to get it sold, if the only concerns are "NCSoft doesn't want it anymore" and "Can I make back my investment?" NCSoft gains nothing by deliberately reacting to fans saying "Please sell the game to somebody who will keep it running; here, look at us demonstrate that how badly we want this!" by backing away from the table. Something - either lack of sufficient funds or Something Else - got in the way.

There is still a way, try to back Paragon, but let them dictate what needs to be done. We don't even know what they offered, and whether or not they closed the negotiations.
You clearly have not been paying attention. We do very much back Paragon, and want to help them however we can. The only messages we've gotten from them were "we're working on it" and "keep showing that you care."

Since "showing that [we] care" is something they've expressly asked us to do, I think doing so counts as following your advice to "back Paragon," don't you?

Moonfyire101

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 296
Re: CAPS LOCK vs. arguments
« Reply #324 on: October 09, 2012, 06:30:35 PM »
In my grandfather's shop he would special order items for customers if it was a product he didn't carry.

Another good point, we did that too.

Segev

  • Plan Z: Interim Producer
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,573
Re: CAPS LOCK vs. arguments
« Reply #325 on: October 09, 2012, 06:33:03 PM »
And if the amount in the briefcase amounted to them taking a serious loss? Even less than the tax break they could gain from just closing the store?
Considering that, in your analogy, he's going to euthanize the animals he's already paid for rather than sell them, any amount of money would be more than he's losing just throwing the carcasses out back.

That said, there may well be other considerations than pure monetary price.

Siberian Spring

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 53
    • Live Creatively
Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #326 on: October 09, 2012, 06:33:30 PM »
We do very much back Paragon, and want to help them however we can. The only messages we've gotten from them were "we're working on it" and "keep showing that you care."

Since "showing that [we] care" is something they've expressly asked us to do, I think doing so counts as following your advice to "back Paragon," don't you?

Speaking of... Did anyone else see a certain "Keep the faith" message in Virtue AP33 broadcast last night? Had redname formatting but not red. (Forgot to turn UI on before trying to screencap)

Moonfyire101

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 296
Re: CAPS LOCK vs. arguments
« Reply #327 on: October 09, 2012, 06:37:32 PM »

Codewalker

  • Hero of the City
  • Titan Network Admin
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,740
  • Moar Dots!
Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #328 on: October 09, 2012, 06:40:35 PM »
Yeah, I got upset (imagine that on a forum), and got into an argument. Then my posts were deleted, but most of the other posts were left in tact, even the ones that took it further than mine. I got upset and deleted my account, but then tried to restore it and was unable so I made another one.

Just trying to point out that the emotional reactions aren't all happening on one side of the fence. Ultimately, I think we all want to achieve the same goal here, and are better off if we try not to fight amongst ourselves.

Quote
What course was this thread on that it's been derailed from? This is a "response" thread right? Isn't that what's happening here, people are responding to the statement and to each other. It's not like this is polluting the sunset thread or anything else.

More the 'responding to each other' part overtaking the 'addressing the issue at hand' part. The last thing we need is things degenerating into irrational personal attacks.

Quote
I guess I don't understand why it's only when people show this kind of approach that the mods step in and close it down.

Have you had anything deleted since then? I looked at your post history and didn't see anything obvious. I don't remember the exact context of what happened before, but I do remember it being a bit more inflammatory than anything recent. Again, it's more about how you say things than what you're saying. The people who are actually modding posts don't have any problem with people presenting alternate ideas, so long as it's done in a constructive way.

Quote
I've tried to ask if anyone actually had the real figures or knew an answer.

As far as I know, no real figures have been released publicly. What we do know is that some former Paragon management were attempting to negotiate a buyout of the IP. We haven't heard anything else from that side of the table, and nothing from NCSoft except for their "give it up" announcement.

Unofficially, some reports from the dev dinner are hinting that it may not have been the dollar amount that was the sticking point, but rather something else entirely. No one who was there is saying much, no doubt to protect the people who told them that, if they were told anything of relevance. We simply don't have any official word.

The only other thing we know is that a few independent studios have tried to approach NCSoft to feel them out for making an offer and have been met with silence. It's unknown as to the reason, and there are as many different speculations on it as there are colors of the bike shed.

void hunter

  • Guest
Re: CAPS LOCK vs. arguments
« Reply #329 on: October 09, 2012, 06:43:09 PM »
Considering that, in your analogy, he's going to euthanize the animals he's already paid for rather than sell them, any amount of money would be more than he's losing just throwing the carcasses out back.

That said, there may well be other considerations than pure monetary price.

Sorry, but I'm not going to go point by point with your other post. I'll sum up here real quick. If you and I want to do a deal, and you have stipulations, I either want / need the thing so bad I'm willing to deal with the stipulations or I don't want / need it bad enough to deal with them. Fair assessment? The converse is true, either you want to sell so bad you'll take my offer, or you don't want / need to sell it that bad. The question is, how badly does NCSoft want / need to sell the game?

As far as the hearsay thing, even Tony saying something is hearsay. Sorry but it's true. I know he's seen as being a straight up guy, but he's NOT Brian or anyone from Paragon. Once the word comes from them (or from NCSoft), then we know for sure. Until then, nothing is confirmed.

Negotiations involve money and terms, always have always will. Usually more terms come with less money and vice versa. Regardless of the sticking point, we're not going to force NCSoft. As far as backing Paragon, them saying keep showing we care could mean anything. If they said don't do the group funding thing, then maybe that meant don't get involved directly. We don't know.

One thing was said that caught my eye, the last time I logged in, it was indeed a ghost town on the game. Playing is a major sign of support as well. You don't have to agree with me, and feel free to debate me as much as you want. For the time being, I have other matters to attend. Have a great day guys.

Moonfyire101

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 296
Re: CAPS LOCK vs. arguments
« Reply #330 on: October 09, 2012, 06:46:30 PM »

One thing was said that caught my eye, the last time I logged in, it was indeed a ghost town on the game. Playing is a major sign of support as well. You don't have to agree with me, and feel free to debate me as much as you want. For the time being, I have other matters to attend. Have a great day guys.
Totally agree, i play every night before bed and i have noticed it's pretty dead too. Of course it isn't the Virtue server i play on so i didn't figure the population would be too high.

Moonfyire101

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 296
Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #331 on: October 09, 2012, 06:47:54 PM »
BTW i love you all, we might not allways see eye to eye on issues but we are all here for the same reason. To SAVE CITY OF HEROES/VILLAINS

Turjan

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 270
  • You cannot kill a dream
Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #332 on: October 09, 2012, 07:02:28 PM »

Moonfyire101

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 296
Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #333 on: October 09, 2012, 07:06:54 PM »
Imagine you have a cherished pet. You love your pet, it has been a part of your family for years. One day you get a phone call.
"Hello, I am the one who bred your pet all those years ago. I have bad news I'm afraid - it's been a difficult decision to make, but your pet has to be put to sleep in 3 months."
"What? Why?" you say, confused and hurt.
"Don't ask about the hows or whys, it's just better to accept it and move on" says the breeder.
"Can't my pet be saved?" you ask in desperation.
"Attempts to save your pet have been unsuccessful," says the breeder.
"But...there's nothing wrong with my pet! It's as healthy now as it's ever been! Why would you want to kill it, and why is it not possible to save it?"
The breeder says "We all have happy memories of your pet - please let us remember those and move on." ...and hangs up.

Now, it is true that City of Heroes is not 'alive' in the same way a cherished pet is alive. But the dreams the players have created within the game are very much alive. And by closing the game, you are also killing those dreams.


Wow.....just wow, what a powerful message, it reminds me of the NC dog comic someone posted a while back...

Manga

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 334
Re: That Darned FrankTurk
« Reply #334 on: October 09, 2012, 07:24:14 PM »
It would be awesome to see where FrankTurk said that.  I think he instead said that it would be better to do constructive things rather than string out our hopes -- but if FrankTurk said, "shut up," or anything like that, it would be good to see where he said that.

Whatever, straw man.  I probably misspelled something too, so that makes 2 reasons you're induspitably in the right.

Manga

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 334
Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #335 on: October 09, 2012, 08:00:40 PM »

Void Hunter,

See, the problem is you keep behaving like our attempts at saving CoH are costing you or embarrassing you somehow.  It is not costing you anything to watch, so there is no reason to tell *us* to stop.  As I said before, it's not about YOU.

The only possible reason for you to insist we stop at all is like Victoria Victrix pretty much said; that you take pleasure in making people feel wrong and worthless, and you're compelled to do so.  Don't say that you just hate people acting illogically or that you're just being devil's advocate, because that too translates into a compulsion to make people miserable.

I'm telling you now, that kind of thing won't fly here.  Make people miserable someplace else.

Sorry to everyone else who had to read this.  I'll try to make it up to you by doing my best to help change NCSoft's mind.

dwturducken

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,152
  • Now available in stereo
Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #336 on: October 09, 2012, 08:27:27 PM »
I didn't send the letter in the end because when I came to read it back, it looked like all I was trying to do was deliberately kick the reader in the emotional nuts over and over. Which I was, I suppose - but I don't think that's necessarily a productive approach to take, so I didn't send it.
Yet. ;)

I know I'm taking a huge liberty with what Tony said in his response to NCSoft, but I believe he's saying, among other things that this kind of nut-kicking is now called for. :)
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

dwturducken

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,152
  • Now available in stereo
Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #337 on: October 09, 2012, 08:28:20 PM »
Also, while I'm here...

<drops two 50# bags of unicorn food>

Looks like you're running a little low in here.
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

TimtheEnchanter

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,466
  • There are some who call me... Tim?
Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #338 on: October 09, 2012, 08:30:08 PM »
Also, while I'm here...

<drops two 50# bags of unicorn food>

Looks like you're running a little low in here.

@_@ get that out of here, you'll attract more of them!

emu265

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 545
  • Wait, what?
Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #339 on: October 09, 2012, 08:31:22 PM »
I'm finished aiming comments like this at any one person, and I'm also too lazy to pick apart everything everyone's said in the last two or three pages.  So instead, let me offer some general advice for all of us and hope it sinks in.

For the minority:

1) People take things personally.  I don't care if you didn't mean it, it's natural for a person to take something general, apply to themselves and get upset about it.  For those who have been saying we're going to fail, people are understanding that as, "nice try, loser" and reacting accordingly.  If you have an opinion that might come across as inflammatory, I would suggest a little proofreading before you hit submit.  If you really want such an opinion to help us save City of Heroes you'll work on a way of getting into people's heads such that you're not the anti-Christ (please forgive the religious reference). 

2) Somewhat contradictory, but if anyone says "That's it, we're done.  We're going to fail."  I'm sorry, but you lose.  Saying this will never, ever, ever get you anywhere on this board.  At that point people have already dawned their zombie apocalypse gear and are ready to eviscerate you.  How can you prevent this?  Don't say it in any way, shape or form.  Maybe then you can stop crying about how no one is listening to you and further contribute.

3) This isn't always easy,  but do you try to stay positive.  At least remain constructive.  Few people are going to fly off the handle when you post things like, "I disagree, <here's why> and <here's what I think could be done/said/etc instead>."  People will actually respect you if you do this.  But you must watch your tone.  And if you really have nothing nice to say, leave.  Now.  No one wants you here, no one will listen and no likes you.  If you dare to stick around, don't whine when people aren't hearing your opinions.  You want them heard?  Be nice.  Be constructive.  It's not easy, but you'll find a way.  I have faith in you <3


For everyone else:

1) Don't let a few negative comments get to you.  No matter what anyone says, they're just sitting behind a computer as you are.  As Tony has said, they're 'internet nobodies.'

2) Please try not to take every dissenting voice as a personal act of war on your effort within the campaign.  Most aren't intended to make you make mad and are not intended to hurt your feelings.  If said voice is, then you can safely assume they're a certain Hollows-dwelling-superadine-addicted individual and you can move on.

3)Stay strong and don't be afraid to speak, even when their are people out there being crucified because of their opinions.  No one's going to start chucking harpoons if you're being constructive.