A response to NCsoft

[Floride]

If someone says there's no hope he will only upset those who, deep down, believe he's right and are just here to lie to themselves. Negative posts get a ton more replies than actual ideas posted here do. I know this because aside from this post, all my other posts have been new ideas.

So I'm gonna join in the fun!

It's a short list: play the game as if you loved it like you say you love it

THIS!
Too many people have stopped playing. I'm helping friends get their 45's to 50's with little to no other help because attendance in-game has shot way down. I spend more time playing the game than on any forums, I don't believe that's true for many here. I'm going to play until the lights go out, but i think a lot of people who said the same thing actually meant "when" and not "until".
Notice, I'm not agreeing with Frank. I'm agreeing with something he said. There's a difference.

[void hunter]

This thread has already deviated off course quite enough.

Yeah, I got upset (imagine that on a forum), and got into an argument. Then my posts were deleted, but most of the other posts were left in tact, even the ones that took it further than mine. I got upset and deleted my account, but then tried to restore it and was unable so I made another one.

What course was this thread on that it's been derailed from? This is a "response" thread right? Isn't that what's happening here, people are responding to the statement and to each other. It's not like this is polluting the sunset thread or anything else. If you only wanted people to agree, then you should ask members not to openly invite people from CoH to here. Sometimes you have to be the irritant that causes the oyster to create a pearl. Is this not what you're trying to do with NCSoft? If that's the case, then some of us are trying to do it with the rest of us. Believe it or not, I HAVE thrown out ideas for what the most logical path should be. I've tried to ask if anyone actually had the real figures or knew an answer. I guess I don't understand why it's only when people show this kind of approach that the mods step in and close it down.

[Moonfyire101]

If you decided to stop carrying one particular pet because you decided it wasn't cost effective, or more of a pain than it was worth (for whatever reason), would your existing few customers that bought that one pet change your mind by throwing a fit and saying they wanted you to give them all of the supplies to this type of pet, without even showing you enough money?

Actually there were a few times i took a loss on certain animals just to keep the customers coming back. It's called good customer service.

And as far as your comment "would your existing few customers that bought that one pet change your mind by throwing a fit and saying they wanted you to give them all of the supplies to this type of pet, without even showing you enough money?" we tried to work with them.

And anyway how is that point valid at all? We tried to work with those who were upset for whatever reason; NCSOft hasn't tried to work with us at all. WE have been given NO opportunity whatsoever to show we would pay for whatever it took. They shut us down and showed no effort.

[Segev]

I didn't say don't try anything, but what you "know" is based off of hearsay. How do you know that the amount offered was sufficient? Because people on here said they heard it was from a friend? The best attempt would have been to make sure there was enough money, by participating. The only people that know for sure are the involved parties, which NONE of us are. If we would have started with the group funding thing, we would have known better, but we don't and we're using other people's hearsay as evidence that our hearsay is real.

It's not "heard it from a friend." And what we know is that there were very sticky issues being hammered out, according to Tony who, IIRC, cited Brian as his source. There has been speculation about those sticky issues, but it's fairly clear that it's more than "just money." "Just money" doesn't take any hammering out.

Nor is "exhausting all options" generally code for "they just didn't offer enough money." It's pretty easy to state "nobody was both willing and able to make a sufficiently large offer." That would indicate a willingness to sell and be a GOOD way to start a bidding war if they were at all interested just because of money.

You admit yourself that you operate from a point of ignorance. Therefore, your assumption that the only possible reason is "nobody offered enough money" is just that: an assumption. It is one you base on solid reasoning and guesswork, but it is not more inherently correct than reasoned theories that involve other, non-sale-price-related considerations, especially given what we do know from NCSoft's own official statements and actions.

As for crowd-funding, more than one of us looked into it and were cautioned to back off. So we did. We have offered to get back to it should Paragon have needed it. They did not ask. If it had purely been a matter of money, then they probably would have asked, or done crowd-sourcing of their own.

They're not emotionally charged like us. They make decisions based on things like money and liability. If their terms were unreasonable, then I guess the purchaser didn't want the game bad enough as well.

That's an odd way of putting it. If they asked for exclusive ownership of the moon and sovereignty over all of Asia to be delivered by military force funded at any cost by the purchaser, would that mean the purchaser "didn't want the game bad enough?"

Or would it mean there were terms over which agreement literally could not be reached? (I'm not suggesting NCSoft was as unreasonable in their requirements as the above; it was deliberate hyperbole to make the point that "unreasonable demands" do not mean the other party "doesn't want it badly enough.")

The point is we don't know either way. People shouldn't be so desperate that they take any rumor as truth. If you can't lend anything of substance to the acquisition, then you really can't do anything. At best, you're a distraction. At worst, you're a reason why the seller would back away from the table.

This is nonsense. If these people are as reasoned and unemotional about it as you said earlier, impassioned fans who are desperately searching for anything to save their game are only more reason to get it sold, if the only concerns are "NCSoft doesn't want it anymore" and "Can I make back my investment?" NCSoft gains nothing by deliberately reacting to fans saying "Please sell the game to somebody who will keep it running; here, look at us demonstrate that how badly we want this!" by backing away from the table. Something - either lack of sufficient funds or Something Else - got in the way.

There is still a way, try to back Paragon, but let them dictate what needs to be done. We don't even know what they offered, and whether or not they closed the negotiations.

You clearly have not been paying attention. We do very much back Paragon, and want to help them however we can. The only messages we've gotten from them were "we're working on it" and "keep showing that you care."

Since "showing that [we] care" is something they've expressly asked us to do, I think doing so counts as following your advice to "back Paragon," don't you?

[Moonfyire101]

In my grandfather's shop he would special order items for customers if it was a product he didn't carry.

Another good point, we did that too.

[Segev]

And if the amount in the briefcase amounted to them taking a serious loss? Even less than the tax break they could gain from just closing the store?

Considering that, in your analogy, he's going to euthanize the animals he's already paid for rather than sell them, any amount of money would be more than he's losing just throwing the carcasses out back.

That said, there may well be other considerations than pure monetary price.

[Siberian Spring]

We do very much back Paragon, and want to help them however we can. The only messages we've gotten from them were "we're working on it" and "keep showing that you care."

Since "showing that [we] care" is something they've expressly asked us to do, I think doing so counts as following your advice to "back Paragon," don't you?

Speaking of... Did anyone else see a certain "Keep the faith" message in Virtue AP33 broadcast last night? Had redname formatting but not red. (Forgot to turn UI on before trying to screencap)

[Moonfyire101]

Considering that, in your analogy, he's going to euthanize the animals he's already paid for rather than sell them, any amount of money would be more than he's losing just throwing the carcasses out back.

That said, there may well be other considerations than pure monetary price.

I must have missed something? Why are they getting euthanized? I know if we ever had a minimum and couldn't move something we then tried to sell at a lower cost or tried to sell some off to other stores, not kill them, that's inhumane.

NCSoft didn't have to kill the game and fire Paragon, they could have found a buyer.

[Codewalker]

Yeah, I got upset (imagine that on a forum), and got into an argument. Then my posts were deleted, but most of the other posts were left in tact, even the ones that took it further than mine. I got upset and deleted my account, but then tried to restore it and was unable so I made another one.

Just trying to point out that the emotional reactions aren't all happening on one side of the fence. Ultimately, I think we all want to achieve the same goal here, and are better off if we try not to fight amongst ourselves.

What course was this thread on that it's been derailed from? This is a "response" thread right? Isn't that what's happening here, people are responding to the statement and to each other. It's not like this is polluting the sunset thread or anything else.

More the 'responding to each other' part overtaking the 'addressing the issue at hand' part. The last thing we need is things degenerating into irrational personal attacks.

I guess I don't understand why it's only when people show this kind of approach that the mods step in and close it down.

Have you had anything deleted since then? I looked at your post history and didn't see anything obvious. I don't remember the exact context of what happened before, but I do remember it being a bit more inflammatory than anything recent. Again, it's more about how you say things than what you're saying. The people who are actually modding posts don't have any problem with people presenting alternate ideas, so long as it's done in a constructive way.

I've tried to ask if anyone actually had the real figures or knew an answer.

As far as I know, no real figures have been released publicly. What we do know is that some former Paragon management were attempting to negotiate a buyout of the IP. We haven't heard anything else from that side of the table, and nothing from NCSoft except for their "give it up" announcement.

Unofficially, some reports from the dev dinner are hinting that it may not have been the dollar amount that was the sticking point, but rather something else entirely. No one who was there is saying much, no doubt to protect the people who told them that, if they were told anything of relevance. We simply don't have any official word.

The only other thing we know is that a few independent studios have tried to approach NCSoft to feel them out for making an offer and have been met with silence. It's unknown as to the reason, and there are as many different speculations on it as there are colors of the bike shed.

[void hunter]

Considering that, in your analogy, he's going to euthanize the animals he's already paid for rather than sell them, any amount of money would be more than he's losing just throwing the carcasses out back.

That said, there may well be other considerations than pure monetary price.

Sorry, but I'm not going to go point by point with your other post. I'll sum up here real quick. If you and I want to do a deal, and you have stipulations, I either want / need the thing so bad I'm willing to deal with the stipulations or I don't want / need it bad enough to deal with them. Fair assessment? The converse is true, either you want to sell so bad you'll take my offer, or you don't want / need to sell it that bad. The question is, how badly does NCSoft want / need to sell the game?

As far as the hearsay thing, even Tony saying something is hearsay. Sorry but it's true. I know he's seen as being a straight up guy, but he's NOT Brian or anyone from Paragon. Once the word comes from them (or from NCSoft), then we know for sure. Until then, nothing is confirmed.

Negotiations involve money and terms, always have always will. Usually more terms come with less money and vice versa. Regardless of the sticking point, we're not going to force NCSoft. As far as backing Paragon, them saying keep showing we care could mean anything. If they said don't do the group funding thing, then maybe that meant don't get involved directly. We don't know.

One thing was said that caught my eye, the last time I logged in, it was indeed a ghost town on the game. Playing is a major sign of support as well. You don't have to agree with me, and feel free to debate me as much as you want. For the time being, I have other matters to attend. Have a great day guys.

[Moonfyire101]

One thing was said that caught my eye, the last time I logged in, it was indeed a ghost town on the game. Playing is a major sign of support as well. You don't have to agree with me, and feel free to debate me as much as you want. For the time being, I have other matters to attend. Have a great day guys.

Totally agree, i play every night before bed and i have noticed it's pretty dead too. Of course it isn't the Virtue server i play on so i didn't figure the population would be too high.

[Moonfyire101]

BTW i love you all, we might not allways see eye to eye on issues but we are all here for the same reason. To SAVE CITY OF HEROES/VILLAINS

[Turjan]

If you decided to stop carrying one particular pet---

let me just stop you there - pets are an interesting analogy to make, but not perhaps the way you used them there. Here's an excerpt from a letter that I oh-so nearly sent to NCSoft...

Imagine you have a cherished pet. You love your pet, it has been a part of your family for years. One day you get a phone call.
"Hello, I am the one who bred your pet all those years ago. I have bad news I'm afraid - it's been a difficult decision to make, but your pet has to be put to sleep in 3 months."
"What? Why?" you say, confused and hurt.
"Don't ask about the hows or whys, it's just better to accept it and move on" says the breeder.
"Can't my pet be saved?" you ask in desperation.
"Attempts to save your pet have been unsuccessful," says the breeder.
"But...there's nothing wrong with my pet! It's as healthy now as it's ever been! Why would you want to kill it, and why is it not possible to save it?"
The breeder says "We all have happy memories of your pet - please let us remember those and move on." ...and hangs up.

Now, it is true that City of Heroes is not 'alive' in the same way a cherished pet is alive. But the dreams the players have created within the game are very much alive. And by closing the game, you are also killing those dreams.

I didn't send the letter in the end because when I came to read it back, it looked like all I was trying to do was deliberately kick the reader in the emotional nuts over and over. Which I was, I suppose - but I don't think that's necessarily a productive approach to take, so I didn't send it.
Yet. ;)

Their motives are... confusing, at best.

Indeed, and that's the most frustrating and infuriating thing for me at least. We have to remember that NCSoft have indeed supported CoH for 8 years. When Cryptic wanted out, NCSoft bought the IP from them. They could've shut the game then if they'd wanted to, if they thought there was no future in it...but they didn't.

And when it came to Tabula Rasa, it was CEO Taek-Jin Kim himself who wanted the visionary Garriott brothers onboard, paying a large cash sum to secure their services at the start of their employment. I read an article that claimed it became sort of a running joke at company functions that only Kim seemed to continue to have faith in the Garriotts, and every year he would announce Tabula Rasa would be out that year.

This is what puzzles me most about the man - I honestly believe he commits and has faith in projects...which is why I find it so bizarre whenever he turns round and just shoots one down, then acts like it never existed in the first place. If it's about 'face' then it makes sense with Tabula Rasa...sort of - especially given the subsequent court case NCSoft lost. And appealed and lost again. If anything's going to lose you face, it would be that I suppose.

But that's not the case with CoH. There's been no bad blood, no reason to save face, no reason...for anything at all really. The game wasn't costing the company money, it wasn't an advertising/marketing sink, it wasn't going to imminently collapse...there seemed every reason for Kim to continue supporting CoH as he had done before - one might even say more reason to carry on that support, because unlike Tabula Rasa, there'd been no high profile game development delay/lower than expected subs/game closure/court case fiasco attached.

Here's another interesting factoid - in June 2012, Nexon (who operate F2P game Maple Story) bought 15% of NCSoft stock from Kim. On August 27th (4 days before the announcement about CoH) Daniel Kim, CEO of Nexon's US office, stepped down "...to join his family in Korea" (usually accepted as  business speak for 'fired'). He was replaced by Min Kim. Min Kim was one of the pioneers of microtransaction systems in games in the US - here's a snippet from an article about his new job :

Min Kim said he sees a big opportunity lying ahead in the traditional games space, where people play games for years at a time and for long stretches every month. As a younger gaming demographic grows up, and moves on from other experiences, such as Disney's Club Penguin, "we'll be in the sweet spot," he said.

Just look at that a moment - playing games for years at a time. Demographics growing up. You would've thought that would be exactly where CoH would be perfect for both Nexon and NCSoft's future vision, surely?

Apparently not.

So what's Kim's motive? Why CoH? There just isn't any logic.
*shrug*
The man confuses me. And by extension, irritates me. I don't believe he's a bad person...but in my eyes he keeps coming across as a fool.

The phrase that keeps coming back again and again in my mind is the one I started a whole other thread about - "a realignment of company focus and publishing support" along with "The continued support of the franchise no longer fits with our long-term goals for the company".

The trouble is, as far as I can see, HE doesn't know what fits with the long term goals for the company either!  ???

[Moonfyire101]

Imagine you have a cherished pet. You love your pet, it has been a part of your family for years. One day you get a phone call.
"Hello, I am the one who bred your pet all those years ago. I have bad news I'm afraid - it's been a difficult decision to make, but your pet has to be put to sleep in 3 months."
"What? Why?" you say, confused and hurt.
"Don't ask about the hows or whys, it's just better to accept it and move on" says the breeder.
"Can't my pet be saved?" you ask in desperation.
"Attempts to save your pet have been unsuccessful," says the breeder.
"But...there's nothing wrong with my pet! It's as healthy now as it's ever been! Why would you want to kill it, and why is it not possible to save it?"
The breeder says "We all have happy memories of your pet - please let us remember those and move on." ...and hangs up.

Now, it is true that City of Heroes is not 'alive' in the same way a cherished pet is alive. But the dreams the players have created within the game are very much alive. And by closing the game, you are also killing those dreams.


Wow.....just wow, what a powerful message, it reminds me of the NC dog comic someone posted a while back...

[Manga]

It would be awesome to see where FrankTurk said that.  I think he instead said that it would be better to do constructive things rather than string out our hopes -- but if FrankTurk said, "shut up," or anything like that, it would be good to see where he said that.

Whatever, straw man.  I probably misspelled something too, so that makes 2 reasons you're induspitably in the right.

[Manga]

Void Hunter,

See, the problem is you keep behaving like our attempts at saving CoH are costing you or embarrassing you somehow.  It is not costing you anything to watch, so there is no reason to tell *us* to stop.  As I said before, it's not about YOU.

The only possible reason for you to insist we stop at all is like Victoria Victrix pretty much said; that you take pleasure in making people feel wrong and worthless, and you're compelled to do so.  Don't say that you just hate people acting illogically or that you're just being devil's advocate, because that too translates into a compulsion to make people miserable.

I'm telling you now, that kind of thing won't fly here.  Make people miserable someplace else.

Sorry to everyone else who had to read this.  I'll try to make it up to you by doing my best to help change NCSoft's mind.

[dwturducken]

I didn't send the letter in the end because when I came to read it back, it looked like all I was trying to do was deliberately kick the reader in the emotional nuts over and over. Which I was, I suppose - but I don't think that's necessarily a productive approach to take, so I didn't send it.
Yet. ;)

I know I'm taking a huge liberty with what Tony said in his response to NCSoft, but I believe he's saying, among other things that this kind of nut-kicking is now called for. :)

[dwturducken]

Also, while I'm here...

<drops two 50# bags of unicorn food>

Looks like you're running a little low in here.

[TimtheEnchanter]

Also, while I'm here...

<drops two 50# bags of unicorn food>

Looks like you're running a little low in here.

@_@ get that out of here, you'll attract more of them!

[emu265]

I'm finished aiming comments like this at any one person, and I'm also too lazy to pick apart everything everyone's said in the last two or three pages.  So instead, let me offer some general advice for all of us and hope it sinks in.

For the minority:

1) People take things personally.  I don't care if you didn't mean it, it's natural for a person to take something general, apply to themselves and get upset about it.  For those who have been saying we're going to fail, people are understanding that as, "nice try, loser" and reacting accordingly.  If you have an opinion that might come across as inflammatory, I would suggest a little proofreading before you hit submit.  If you really want such an opinion to help us save City of Heroes you'll work on a way of getting into people's heads such that you're not the anti-Christ (please forgive the religious reference). 

2) Somewhat contradictory, but if anyone says "That's it, we're done.  We're going to fail."  I'm sorry, but you lose.  Saying this will never, ever, ever get you anywhere on this board.  At that point people have already dawned their zombie apocalypse gear and are ready to eviscerate you.  How can you prevent this?  Don't say it in any way, shape or form.  Maybe then you can stop crying about how no one is listening to you and further contribute.

3) This isn't always easy,  but do you try to stay positive.  At least remain constructive.  Few people are going to fly off the handle when you post things like, "I disagree, <here's why> and <here's what I think could be done/said/etc instead>."  People will actually respect you if you do this.  But you must watch your tone.  And if you really have nothing nice to say, leave.  Now.  No one wants you here, no one will listen and no likes you.  If you dare to stick around, don't whine when people aren't hearing your opinions.  You want them heard?  Be nice.  Be constructive.  It's not easy, but you'll find a way.  I have faith in you <3


For everyone else:

1) Don't let a few negative comments get to you.  No matter what anyone says, they're just sitting behind a computer as you are.  As Tony has said, they're 'internet nobodies.'

2) Please try not to take every dissenting voice as a personal act of war on your effort within the campaign.  Most aren't intended to make you make mad and are not intended to hurt your feelings.  If said voice is, then you can safely assume they're a certain Hollows-dwelling-superadine-addicted individual and you can move on.

3)Stay strong and don't be afraid to speak, even when their are people out there being crucified because of their opinions.  No one's going to start chucking harpoons if you're being constructive.