A response to NCsoft

[Moonfyire101]

I am really tired of seeing this in not only this thread but in every area of life. We give our money to corporations. Without us they wouldn't exist in the first place. And yet when they do something a good portion of their customers disagree with and those customers voice their disagreement a bunch of people with your attitude show up and say it's their company and if you don't have the money to buy them out don't complain and just be grateful for what they are giving you.

So how do you stop these corporations from raking you over the coals? For me this fight isn't just over City of Heroes.

When I was a kid my grandfather owned a pet store where I worked when I got older. One of the things stressed was making the customer happy so they would return and tell others what a great place it was to do business. This was 30 years ago. Now corporations are so big they don't care if they upset their customers. There are always more people out there like you who won't speak out against the wrongs done. We need to change that perception and get back to where the customer is the most important piece of the puzzle.

Exactly, you can't have a business without customers. I ran a petstore also (reptiles mostly) and believe me if i went around pissing everyone off we would have went out of business. You need your customers, without them you are nothing.

[TimtheEnchanter]

When I was a kid my grandfather owned a pet store where I worked when I got older. One of the things stressed was making the customer happy so they would return and tell others what a great place it was to do business. This was 30 years ago. Now corporations are so big they don't care if they upset their customers. There are always more people out there like you who won't speak out against the wrongs done. We need to change that perception and get back to where the customer is the most important piece of the puzzle.

This is one of my big pet peeves of the modern system. Globalization practically murdered the conceptual 'invisible hand' that used to regulate the economy.

[Segev]

Not really. It just made the "invisible hand" have to learn to also globalize. See: what we're doing.

[Codewalker]

This just in: Your house represents less than 5% of the tax revenue of your city and less than 2% of its profits.

Bulldozers will be arriving shortly to pave it over and build a shopping mall.

Please lie down quietly and wait for them to arrive. Your cooperation is appreciated, citizen.

[Nafaustu]

I ... am here to save City of Heroes.   

I will not be receptive to 'suck it up and play it until its down, then get over it unless you've got Scrooge McDuck's vault and the ear of a higher power.' (<---THIS is not aimed at anyone, its satire and exageration of general negativity ALL over the forum!   Please do not become personally offended.)  There is a place for that, but this forum is not that place.   

And I am going to once again propose that we should have a Read This First/Mission Statement that makes it clear that, while all opinions are valid, this is not the place for anything save productive discourse on how to work together to save the game.   

We recognize that we don't have 11th bajillion monies to throw at NCSoft and even if we did it might not matter.   This discussion has been done in dozens of threads both new and old since the announcement.   

We would like to do things we can do to help facilitate the continuation of our community and the family friendly game that we find to be a unique, important peice of artwork, up to and including continuing to play the game.

The value of one person's actions are inconsequential in the grander scheme of things.   A total victory is highly improbable.  But this isn't about one person.   And, at least for me, its not just about City of Heroes anymore.   This could happen to any community.   Its not right.

Can I stop it?   Probably not.   Can I force NCSoft to act in another way?  No.   Can I make a case and know I did my best?   Absolutely.   Can I make enough noise to cause other publishers from thinking that they can roughshod over paying customers in all facets of games?   By myself, not a chance.

But i'm not by myself.   And I'm going to try.

Thats my two cents.   And as an aside, I agree with previous posters.   This thread is toxic and it should probably be locked.

[Segev]

Nafaustu, I think a "read this first" thread is a brilliant idea, and, as the originator of said idea, you should take first crack at it. Don't be afraid to ask for help with it if you doubt your own ability to "do it right," but take the first step and make the thread and include in the OP all you do already know. Others will jump in and help, and you can edit the OP until it's a polished jewel.

[void hunter]

You are perfectly entitled to your own opinion of course.  But Verbal Abuse is a well known and insidious form of abuse, just as damaging as physical abuse and a lot harder to counter because it leaves no outward signs.  I have plenty of personal and intense experience with Verbal Abusers, both the aggressive and passive versions, and there are plenty of respected psychologists and counselors out there whose works on the subject I respect.  I do not just toss out the term, lightly or otherwise.  And I don't call someone a Verbal Abuser until they've proven themselves as such, and not just with one post, but with a series of incidents.  I would also add that you have no idea what went on behind the scenes of the boards in PMs.

I think you might have mistaken my post for something that occurred immediately upstream in this thread.  It was a reaction to something that was posted several pages earlier than that.  It involved someone who was clearly attempting to browbeat and castigate TonyV, was, based on other entries by the same person (many deleted by mods) and PMs to me personally, entirely deserving of the title.

Being the person this is aimed at, I'll be happy to either forward this private exchange or post it so everyone can see how "abusive" I've been. The reason why the "pessimists" are having trouble offering positive solutions is because in truth, we are unable to force NCSoft's hand on this. This is their property, and we can't legally or forcefully take it from them. The fans of "Firefly" convinced the studio to try again, but they didn't get the rights to anything. I also haven't seen the numbers they had, does anyone know if they were comparable, fewer, greater?

While I was all for some kind of movement to get things going (the reason I came here in the first place), what I saw being discussed alarmed me and honestly made me concerned that not only would the efforts not work, but many of the tactics being discussed might have actually interfered with more sincere and plausible attempts. I also witnessed things that were let's just say inappropriate, and tried to speak out against such actions or viewpoints.

Not once have I really ever made personal attacks on anyone here. Saying someone is acting in a way that's not appropriate is not the same thing as calling them names. What did my comments get me? People made derogatory comments about me on a personal level (VV for instance).

FrankTurk didn't get into name calling either, but people sure are projecting that behavior onto him, Most of his posts have been articulate and reasonable. If someone says this path leads to a bad place, regardless of how they say it, they're going to be met with almost violent opposition. Well, what if they are right? What if it's obvious to someone who isn't emotionally charged that taking certain roads will not only be unsuccessful, but will close the door for other roads which may have had a better chance of succeeding?

While I don't think the magic number is $50 million, I see the amount needing to be more than what they would get as a loss from their deductions. I also see the purchaser needing to be willing to assume all liability and to hold NCSoft harmless from any claims of liability. Being someone who has purchased a business, I can tell you this is standard operating procedure for doing this.

So how do you stop these corporations from raking you over the coals? For me this fight isn't just over City of Heroes.

Simple, you don't give them the ability in the first place by refraining from doing business with them. Either that or you lawyer up and sue them after they do something wrong. The problem here is legally they didn't do anything that would have consequences. This is one of those things that sucks, but unless we find out that something illegal happened, then we can't do anything about it. The only recourse is to try to permanently damage their reputation (which people already started honestly), but this really should only be considered if you're willing to burn the bridge and don't want anything from them.

If you guys don't believe me or the others who have spoken up, fine. Go talk to businessmen that aren't attached to this. Go talk with a lawyer. Go talk with another software company and see what it would take for their customers to force them to do something they decided against doing. You have the power to make waves, but you can't control what the waves will do. Tony has done a decent job at trying to contain as much as he can, but in reality it wasn't really us that had the shot, it was Paragon.

Once more, if anyone sees what I'm saying as being abusive, go ahead and speak up. Look at what I'm saying, not what you want to take offense to.

[void hunter]

Exactly, you can't have a business without customers. I ran a petstore also (reptiles mostly) and believe me if i went around pissing everyone off we would have went out of business. You need your customers, without them you are nothing.

If you decided to stop carrying one particular pet because you decided it wasn't cost effective, or more of a pain than it was worth (for whatever reason), would your existing few customers that bought that one pet change your mind by throwing a fit and saying they wanted you to give them all of the supplies to this type of pet, without even showing you enough money?

[gypsyav]

Simple, you don't give them the ability in the first place by refraining from doing business with them. Either that or you lawyer up and sue them after they do something wrong. The problem here is legally they didn't do anything that would have consequences. This is one of those things that sucks, but unless we find out that something illegal happened, then we can't do anything about it. The only recourse is to try to permanently damage their reputation (which people already started honestly), but this really should only be considered if you're willing to burn the bridge and don't want anything from them.

Thank you for making my point for me.

[gypsyav]

If you decided to stop carrying one particular pet because you decided it wasn't cost effective, or more of a pain than it was worth (for whatever reason), would your existing few customers that bought that one pet change your mind by throwing a fit and saying they wanted you to give them all of the supplies to this type of pet, without even showing you enough money?

In my grandfather's shop he would special order items for customers if it was a product he didn't carry.

[downix]

If you decided to stop carrying one particular pet because you decided it wasn't cost effective, or more of a pain than it was worth (for whatever reason), would your existing few customers that bought that one pet change your mind by throwing a fit and saying they wanted you to give them all of the supplies to this type of pet, without even showing you enough money?

False analogy. Would instead be the petstore kicking out businessmen who walk in, suitcase full of cash, and offer to buy that pet license and all supplies.

NCSoft has ignored all discussions of money, which is why your analogy does not work.

[Segev]

Void Hunter, there is reason to believe that lack of money was not, in fact, the prime issue. There are other possible reasons, unrelated to raw cash offerings or lack thereof, that NCSoft has decided not to even try to sell the IP.

Because there are these reasons, it is possible that a large enough PR nightmare will make them more willing to re-consider. Did we know these reasons, we could try to address them more directly. We don't.

You're welcome to think all his hopeless, but coming onto a board where people are determined to try and telling them to give up because trying anything at all is futile is going to be met with...resistance.

I am getting the impression that you think trying at all is going to make NCSoft want to sit on the IP out of spite, even if they otherwise would change their minds. Is that correct? If so, at what point would you expect meekly playing the game and not making any noise to convince them to change their minds? When will somebody with this mythical amount of money come along to acquire something that, to all outward appearances, nobody cares has disappeared?

[void hunter]

False analogy. Would instead be the petstore kicking out businessmen who walk in, suitcase full of cash, and offer to buy that pet license and all supplies.

NCSoft has ignored all discussions of money, which is why your analogy does not work.

And if the amount in the briefcase amounted to them taking a serious loss? Even less than the tax break they could gain from just closing the store?

In my grandfather's shop he would special order items for customers if it was a product he didn't carry.

Yeah I knew it was a little risky with the analogy, but it still holds true. What if there was a minimum order, and only one or two people wanted them, but he had to order 50? I'm just trying to reason this out here. It's not as simple or cut and dry as everyone is trying to make it out to be.

[gypsyav]

Yeah I knew it was a little risky with the analogy, but it still holds true. What if there was a minimum order, and only one or two people wanted them, but he had to order 50? I'm just trying to reason this out here. It's not as simple or cut and dry as everyone is trying to make it out to be.

He would talk to the customer and work something out with them. He wouldn't just say, no, sorry it can't be done.

[void hunter]

Void Hunter, there is reason to believe that lack of money was not, in fact, the prime issue. There are other possible reasons, unrelated to raw cash offerings or lack thereof, that NCSoft has decided not to even try to sell the IP.

Because there are these reasons, it is possible that a large enough PR nightmare will make them more willing to re-consider. Did we know these reasons, we could try to address them more directly. We don't.

You're welcome to think all his hopeless, but coming onto a board where people are determined to try and telling them to give up because trying anything at all is futile is going to be met with...resistance.

I am getting the impression that you think trying at all is going to make NCSoft want to sit on the IP out of spite, even if they otherwise would change their minds. Is that correct? If so, at what point would you expect meekly playing the game and not making any noise to convince them to change their minds? When will somebody with this mythical amount of money come along to acquire something that, to all outward appearances, nobody cares has disappeared?

I didn't say don't try anything, but what you "know" is based off of hearsay. How do you know that the amount offered was sufficient? Because people on here said they heard it was from a friend? The best attempt would have been to make sure there was enough money, by participating. The only people that know for sure are the involved parties, which NONE of us are. If we would have started with the group funding thing, we would have known better, but we don't and we're using other people's hearsay as evidence that our hearsay is real.

They're not emotionally charged like us. They make decisions based on things like money and liability. If their terms were unreasonable, then I guess the purchaser didn't want the game bad enough as well. The point is we don't know either way. People shouldn't be so desperate that they take any rumor as truth. If you can't lend anything of substance to the acquisition, then you really can't do anything. At best, you're a distraction. At worst, you're a reason why the seller would back away from the table.

There is still a way, try to back Paragon, but let them dictate what needs to be done. We don't even know what they offered, and whether or not they closed the negotiations.

[void hunter]

He would talk to the customer and work something out with them. He wouldn't just say, no, sorry it can't be done.

Well, there are businesses that would say no, we don't carry that. Like I said it wasn't the best analogy.

[Knightslayer]

Once more, if anyone sees what I'm saying as being abusive, go ahead and speak up. Look at what I'm saying, not what you want to take offense to.

I haven't seen you say anything abusive, negative - sure, but not abusive.
I will however disagree on Frank's case, who's original basically said two things;

1) You're all a bunch of whiners. Knock it off.
2) Don't trust this Tony guy, he's probably lying about even being in contact with NCSoft.

He comes back to point 1 quite frequently in the wall of text he posted, and in subsequent posts of his.
And no, I don't think it's polite to come in and insult everyone, basically tell them to give up over and over again - and then proceed to try to discredit the person who's tried to unite everyone to save the game.

Repeatedly you two have been asked to -add- something constructive to the forums, but instead you are being broken records that keep playing the same old song "Give up and go home", which shows what your only interest for being here really is.
And on that note the topic is closed for me, I will do what I usually do to the fae kind that love to live under bridges. 

There is still a way, try to back Paragon, but let them dictate what needs to be done. We don't even know what they offered, and whether or not they closed the negotiations.

Actually that was productive.
Hopefully they'll be able to communicate with the community in November.

[P51mus]

The problem here is legally they didn't do anything that would have consequences. This is one of those things that sucks, but unless we find out that something illegal happened, then we can't do anything about it.

There are plenty of things that you could do that are terrible and make you a dick but not actually illegal.  Such as posting on a cat forum that dogs are the best pets ever and cats suck, or telling a forum full of people that want to save a game that it's hopeless and they shouldn't even try.  (There are of course other things but this is what comes to mind right now)

So, when a person/corporation does something that's not actually illegal, but is bad for a community, what happens?  That's where shaming/reputation destroying comes into play.  Social pressures, instead of legal pressures.  Even if it doesn't stop/reverse the behavior for that one person, it discourages other people (and corporations) from doing so.

Also, we don't know much about the negotiations because NCSoft won't tell us anything, and likely have the other part in the negotiation under some sort of NDA.  As far as I know, Paragon can't even really talk to us at this point.

[Codewalker]

While I was all for some kind of movement to get things going (the reason I came here in the first place), what I saw being discussed alarmed me and honestly made me concerned that not only would the efforts not work, but many of the tactics being discussed might have actually interfered with more sincere and plausible attempts. I also witnessed things that were let's just say inappropriate, and tried to speak out against such actions or viewpoints.

I remember those posts. This was back before you had a tantrum, deleted your own account, and then created a new one with a different name the very next day, right?

It was apparent from them that you read the first post in a thread about something like "We should sue NCSoft for all their worth, rawr, and sic RICO, the SEC, the MPAA, and the CIA on 'em!", got alarmed, skipped over the 20 replies of everyone else saying why it was a bad idea, and started posting provocative, argumentative things like "ARE YOU GUYS KIDDING????!". I mean, speaking of all caps replies and all...

I'm not saying all the crap you got heaved on you in return was deserved, but you need to accept that your tone, posturing, and apparent lack of reading comprehension at least brought some of it on yourself. Judging by your more recent posts, it seems that may be the case.

If you think you're being personally attacked by a few people, then bring it up to them and to the mods. Don't assume that the entire community is a hive mind that's out to get you and turn unrelated threads into a battleground over your personal issues. And if you really believe those things, why did you come back?

This thread has already deviated off course quite enough.

[gypsyav]

Well, there are businesses that would say no, we don't carry that. Like I said it wasn't the best analogy.

Which comes back to putting the customer last. Exactly my argument.