How to get NCSoft to let go of the IP

[laufeyjarson]

I do believe them when they've said it won't be released open source.  It's quite likely they don't own all the IP rights to the code.  They don't own the Cryptic engine; they have permission to use it.  They can't give that away.  Determining what of the code is theirs and what is Cryptic's will be interesting, if possible.  There's lots of other parts of the system they've contracted out, and likely don't own, so can't make open source.

This doesn't mean they can't transfer the IP ownership and rights to someone - that's possible.  But that group wouldn't be able to open source them either - they don't own them.  They just have permission to use them.

This happens all the time in business, and means that even if the company wants to open source something, they often can't.  I know it was true for Eudora, the mail client.  I've been on other projects where it was definitely true, as well, but you won't have heard of them because they simply vanished when they company dropped them.

So, pushing NCsoft to release this Open Source may be doing more harm than good.  Get them to transfer rights to the IP to another operator.  That, they can do.

[Lock-On]

I dont' think NCsoft ever intended to let go of the IP. If you look at their history of not just American games, but Korean games, I don't think they've ever once sold or released any of their IP in the past 10 years.

They have not.  All the more reason, why coming up with an extraordinary solution will be required to get them to start doing it just for us.

So it is just me, or does this largely sum up to 'lets find a win win situation here?' Not that I think that's a bad thing or anything. And of course the devil is in the details.

Any solution that NCSoft does not see as a win for at least them, will not be taken seriously.  One of the reasons I like my proposed solution in the first post is that it removes any potential financial risk to NCSoft, something that would likely be required to even get to the negotiating table.  I suspect our benefactors in negotiations right now have already figured this out.  Or at least I hope they have.

[Sajaana]

I believe the thing that will get NCSoft to release its IP is really simple:

Time.

This live service, and this IP, loses value every day.  It'll continue to lose value after November 30th at a much more rapid pace.

People will forget and move on elsewhere.  The developers would have moved on.  Once it loses its usefulness as a tax writeoff, it'll just be in an archive.  And the longer time goes by, the less likely it is that anyone, anyone, will want to make a deal on it.

See, the time to buy this service isn't now, because the seller has the advantage.  The time to buy this service is a year or two from now.  Failing that, three years from now.  See, at that point, the buyer has the advantage.

That is assuming, of course, that we'll care at that point. Assuming that we do, there will probably come a point in time when NCSoft will be more than happy to unload a 2004-era property that has been just collecting dust in an archive, and the price will be far more favorable than now.

Oh, and by the way, hi (just joined today)

[Lock-On]

Why are you assuming that price is the primary motivation for not selling the game right now?

[Harermuir]

It has not to be an absolute win for NCsoft, it just have to cost them less than the other way around. Let's be clear, closing the game has a cost, mainly on the public relation side. When the titan network call for public action to show how we were treated by NCsoft and draw the light and our problem, it basically rise the cost. And they succeed to rise the cost to a point where NCsoft assume that they have something to do, so cost go no higher anymore. If we want to get NCsoft to release the IP, there is two way to go : make them as happy as we can if they released it. And make them as sad as we can as long as they dont released it. And that means shouting how much discontent customers we are.

[Sajaana]

Because I have a hard time believing that if the price was some ungodly amount, they still wouldn't sell it because of some intangible concern.

What other intangible concern would they have?  Competition?  If they are able to unload their 2004 property to their competition for a killing, they hurt their competition far more than they foster it.  Proprietary secrets?  Well, that may be a concern now, but will it be a concern a few years from now, when engine development and operating system optimization enables so much more?

[DrakeGrimm]

Because I have a hard time believing that if the price was some ungodly amount, they still wouldn't sell it because of some intangible concern.

What other intangible concern would they have?  Competition?  If they are able to unload their 2004 property to their competition for a killing, they hurt their competition far more than they foster it.  Proprietary secrets?  Well, that may be a concern now, but will it be a concern a few years from now, when engine development and operating system optimization enables so much more?

You really need to read more on the Kibun stuff. Just saying.

[Sajaana]

You really need to read more on the Kibun stuff. Just saying.

How better to honor their Kibun than to come to them, years later, seeing the virtue in what others may call "old trash" by giving them a respectful offer on it?
 

See, if we are all serious, really serious, about bringing City of Heroes back, it might be a good thing to think long term.  I mean, if we can't come up with a long range plan to secure the live service, how are we going to be able to come up with a long term plan to run the live service?

Because if we think rationally about this, if it's about securing the live service, time is on our side far more than it's on their side.  That is, of course, if we can survive that long past November 30th.  But that isn't up to me alone.  That's up to all of us.

[DrakeGrimm]

If I have any say at all they will never touch my City ever again.

[downix]

Even if we cannot get the game engine itself, opening up the IP or licensing it would enable... options.

[RedWolfeXR]

This is my 4th time having NC kill a game I was playing, after TR I quit buying.  (they did GIVE me a copy of Aion, and I played it a bit -- it was in no wise a replacement for TR) 

I seriously doubt they will release the code or sell it at all.  I hope to be wrong, and in fact I am HERE.  This is probably the most successful of the games they have killed but not by such a factor that it would be treated differently.  I have worked with Koreans and Korean companies, and "Kibun" isn't something I saw at corporate levels.  The "Company Face" was.  (a branch of Samsung and one of Hyundai, and of the two Samsung was the most successful at bridging the cultures of the US and Korea)

I have been playing around Issue 2, and CoH has always been the game I come back to.   

Would have sworn I had a Titan membership, but it seems not....

[emu265]

This is my 4th time having NC kill a game I was playing, after TR I quit buying.  (they did GIVE me a copy of Aion, and I played it a bit -- it was in no wise a replacement for TR) 

I seriously doubt they will release the code or sell it at all.  I hope to be wrong, and in fact I am HERE.  This is probably the most successful of the games they have killed but not by such a factor that it would be treated differently.  I have worked with Koreans and Korean companies, and "Kibun" isn't something I saw at corporate levels.  The "Company Face" was.  (a branch of Samsung and one of Hyundai, and of the two Samsung was the most successful at bridging the cultures of the US and Korea)

I have been playing around Issue 2, and CoH has always been the game I come back to.   

Would have sworn I had a Titan membership, but it seems not....

This is the impression I had, but I lacked anything to qualify it with.  Still, "kibun" could be useful in sending a message.

[Knightward]

Maybe it's the late hour (curse you insomnia!) but kibun and face struck me as being much the same concept.  I mean, it even says in the definition for kibun that part of it is face.  Maybe I'm overgeneralizing.  Granted, one is more nuanced with all its details and complexity.  But in the end, if you feel good, you probably look good; if you look bad, you probably feel bad.  And obviously when you're dealing with a collective entity like a corporation it doesn't have emotions as it isn't personal, but it DOES have an identity and reputation.  And generally in more collectivist cultures if you're operating in a collective entity means that your primary goal isn't climbing up the hierarchy, it's bettering the collective entity.  So we're probably better off not appealing to the individuals at the top, but rather appealing to the overall well being of NCSoft as a whole.  Ultimately, unless I'm missing something crucial (again, insomnia) as far as I can tell kibun and face are interchangeable regarding NCSoft.

So we stress that we're looking for a solution that betters the company (and obviously, saves the city).  The face-saving of their current strategy is largely negated by the PR storm that we are.  So they're left with little face (if not a loss of face) but they avoid potentially losing a lot of face especially if things become less financially secure in the future.  If we have face (both in terms of ethics/honor and aptitude, so essentially kibun) and financial options available to them in our correspondence we've got all our bases covered.  And I do stress options because, well, it would be impolite to back someone into a corner.  Seriously, I remember reading a couple of times in the links that have flown out of these boards that in Korean business dealings you don't want to corner someone into a yes/no answer.  And heroes have good/harmonious/[positive term #572] kibun.  Which makes us worth listening to.

TL;DR: Lock-On is a genius.  His idea in this thread is awesome.  I've got a good feeling about it.

[ET3D]

Great thread, Lock-On. Yesterday I was thinking about what could be done regarding purchasing the IP, and some of it fits what you suggest here. I also think it's a good idea to consider the Korean culture, and if we can find someone Korean to help us that would be great.

My thought was that if the IP can't be purchased, then it may be possible to "operate it", i.e., license it and provide NCsoft with a percentage of the profit (if any). That way NCsoft keeps control of the IP, lets someone else do the work, and might get some money. As you say, it's mutually beneficial.

Another option, which has less to do with the theme of this thread, is to try to buy just the game data and license to the game world, without the engine. This will allow building the game from scratch with compatibility for the old game. That's a huge undertaking, but I think that something like this could be Kickstarted.

[eeek]

If money isn't their concern right now, then it sounds as if our only leverage is their corporate reputation.

I don't think that they want to lose whatever rights to the game they own, because it could make them look bad.  If the game does well without NCSoft, that can make them look bad.  If we get the game, will we spend the next 5 years STILL bashing them, like we did Jack Emmert?  Why would they want to do this?  Why not let us all go to the 4 corners and possibly nurse our personal dissatisfaction... alone, where we can't hurt their reputation any? 

They require a heck of a strong motive to want to change an operating procedure that has been working for them. 

We did find something that does motivate them.  In fact, the only way we got any response from them at all was when they started to look bad, in a really big way.  Then they got their PR people to spin their message, by sounding caring, and reasonable.  We can't even refute anything they said about trying to negotiate in good faith.

We need to find a way to turn up the heat.  To let them know they really ARE trashing their corporate reputation if they don't leave us a way to save our game!

[RedWolfeXR]

Maybe it's the late hour (curse you insomnia!) but kibun and face struck me as being much the same concept.

They are somewhat different, the company face is the attitude and presentation that the company makes to the world.  Kibun is a bit more personal and is how people interact. 

In a good example of the company face, in Korea the receptionist to the customers is always young, pretty and single.  (not neccesarily female, but usually)  When any of those change, he/she is replaced.  Hyundai does that even in the US.  Samsung hires a security contractor and the check in guards would qualify as young and pretty.  I suspect the "single" part isn't as enforced in the US by either company....

/RW

[dwturducken]

I seriously doubt they will release the code or sell it at all.  I hope to be wrong, and in fact I am HERE.  This is probably the most successful of the games they have killed but not by such a factor that it would be treated differently.  I have worked with Koreans and Korean companies, and "Kibun" isn't something I saw at corporate levels.  The "Company Face" was.  (a branch of Samsung and one of Hyundai, and of the two Samsung was the most successful at bridging the cultures of the US and Korea)

Given your experiences over there, do you have anything you'd be willing to share in regards to Tony's latest thread?

[Lock-On]

I seriously doubt they will release the code or sell it at all.  I hope to be wrong, and in fact I am HERE.  This is probably the most successful of the games they have killed but not by such a factor that it would be treated differently.  I have worked with Koreans and Korean companies, and "Kibun" isn't something I saw at corporate levels.  The "Company Face" was.  (a branch of Samsung and one of Hyundai, and of the two Samsung was the most successful at bridging the cultures of the US and Korea)

This is why efforts like Tony's are so important.  Given our (somewhat better) understanding of the financials involved with NCSoft, convincing them that the goodwill generated from the sale would be in their best interests is the only option we have for breaking them out of their standard operating cycle of killing and burying the IP.

[Lock-On]

Even if we cannot get the game engine itself, opening up the IP or licensing it would enable... options.

Licensing seems unlikely to me given NCSoft's desire to shed any and all responsibility for the property from their books.  As for the game engine itself, well....I've avoided discussing that on purpose right now.  But that is a distinctly different and harder issue to deal with at the moment.

[Segev]

Licensing seems unlikely to me given NCSoft's desire to shed any and all responsibility for the property from their books.  As for the game engine itself, well....I've avoided discussing that on purpose right now.  But that is a distinctly different and harder issue to deal with at the moment.

Cryptic seems to be willing, at least, to discuss licensing the engine to an agency which wished to continue the game. What they'll charge for it is, of course, an open question, but I think their general thought is, "Why not? We like making money."