Timeline...

[Durakken]

The in-game timeline needs to be edited severely..

Just about everything in there about Oranbega and Mu is wrong.

Circle of Thorns reference link is broken and was never right to begin with.

This:
"Rome - Rome destroys Carthago. Many relics of the god Mot survive the city, being used by metahumans still today." needs a reference. It says it's a paper/radio mission, but then there is no reference within that section to this point so it's not really a reference. Also are you sure it's not Carthage? Carthago is a latin form of Carthage.

"Unknown location, during this century - The Malta Knights separate from the Malta Templars." has no reference.

"Unknown location - In an unknown place the book is written that allows the summoning of a powerful demon called "The Envoy of Shadows"" <-1592 not 1529

"1698 Italy - Giovanna Scaldi dies in Venetia while waiting to be executed." has no reference. The reference linked doesn't say it anywhere and one can not assume it from any other data.

"Italy, during this century - Giovanna Scaldi is born in a little village near Venetia." <- She was born in Padua

"Italy, during this century - Strange events in Venetia: the whole city falls into a pit of hedonism and depravity." Venice, not Venetia.


Everything in the "1600s" happens in late 1600s, which might be a bit confusing since it is listed before Salamanca which happened in 1641, but that would have happened before the stuff listed in the "1600s" data.

I'll probably post more on this as I work on my timeline >.>

[SaintNicster]

If you are finding stuff wrong with the wiki, you are able to research and edit it yourself.

[Durakken]

Actually no, because there is a difference of style in some of this and for some of these obviously someone thought to put something in like that so they might have the actual reference.

Like
"Rome - Rome destroys Carthago. Many relics of the god Mot survive the city, being used by metahumans still today."

Simply doesn't have a good enough reference that i can find to be included.

"Italy, during this century - Giovanna Scaldi is born in a little village near Venetia."

This one the person obviously knew it was Padua and ignored it.


So they can be errors or they could be purposefully done that way. I don't know.

[SaintNicster]

If there isn't a reference to it anywhere, I'm pretty sure we have a [[citation needed]] tag, or could easily create one.  Also, a line like that seems like one that just slipped through the cracks a long time ago.  Similar to Vanguard's "Elite Five" reference mentioned in an earlier post.

A lot of the story arc are verbatim in the wiki, and sometimes it is very easy to look things up to see if they are referenced anywhere.  Take the Malta Templars instance as an example.  To look up that one, I did a search in the wiki for "templar", and the second result ended up being the correct one.  I went ahead and updated that page, adding the ref.  This turned out to be the longest part of the process, as I hadn't done this before.

RE: "Rome - Rome destroys Carthago. Many relics of the god Mot survive the city, being used by metahumans still today."
I did a search for "Mot" on the wiki.  The third (of three) results was the police scanner missions, with the object "Scepter of Mot" listed with the following description:

Mot was the Carthaginian god of death and sterility, before the city of Carthage was destroyed by ancient Rome. For some reason, mystically oriented villains seem attracted to Mot's few remaining artifacts.

Looks like Carthago was a stylistic change, just as the "little village" comment for Giovanna.  If you looked back at the history of the article, you can see that the original article was compiled by Yakovlev, and that a lot of his flavor is still there.

I do agree that the article does need to be revamped, but I'm not exactly sure how we would go about cleaning it up.  Looking at the Talk page, it appeared that Sekoia was going to be starting this at one point.  I'm wondering if he had any luck there.

[TonyV]

You might want to contact Yakovlev directly.  He was responsible for the timeline, and he was typically really good at providing references and citations as he did so.  It's entirely possible that text within the game has changed, just as it's more than possible--a certainty I can attest to--that a lot of information from Gilgamesh and Arctic_Sun on creating and maintaining the city's backstory is probably lost forever as the web group crews have updated the site.

[Durakken]

SaintNicster ,

Thanks... a few of the problems I've been seeing is the way it was stated. For example it's not the Malta Knights.. it's the Knights of Malta which is a proper noun so that threw me.

One of the reasons I'm deciding to list this is because... the timeline needs to be updated, I'm remaking the timeline for CityofLore.com, this is a big thing so once it's been redone with references and everything it would be easier just to copy and paste, rather than go one line at a time, and I'm leaving out anything that I can't find a good reference to and changing things so that they are right according to several sources which the current timeline hasn't been so far (The whole oranbega / mu part like mentioned gives a different story than any of the other places where it can be found)

So if I am missing a reference to something and leave it out...and then someone copies the new timeline over Without that point in there, it would be a lose of information.

The reason I'm not just replacing it is the stylistic changes I am making, the above, and really I'd find it rude someone did that to me, so I'll do this whole new one and someone can decide whether they want to replace the old one.

This thread will provide a nice little, here are things that I'm changing and probably someone needs to fix it somewhere so that the optimal result is achieved.

[Sekoia]

I do agree that the article does need to be revamped, but I'm not exactly sure how we would go about cleaning it up.  Looking at the Talk page, it appeared that Sekoia was going to be starting this at one point.  I'm wondering if he had any luck there.

I started but didn't get very far. It's still something I really want to get done, but I'm finding myself without any appreciable time to put towards it. I certainly won't complain if someone else tackles it instead.

I figure that it's such a huge undertaking, it's going to have to get done bit-by-bit. I don't think it's possible to fix the whole thing all at once. My goal is incremental improvement.


As Tony noted, Yakovlev wrote the initial timeline. I don't believe English is Yakovlev's primary language, so I suspect that some of the occasional awkward phrasing is attributable to that. (For example, "Malta Knights" instead of "Knights of Malta".) I could be wrong, though.

[Durakken]

btw...

Here's my timeline currently...
http://www.cityoflore.com/wiki/Multiverse/Primal_Earth/Timeline

For some of the dates (where it can be guessed from given information) I've relied on real world dates... the only problem this has caused is the Knights of Malta... they just create a lot of problems...

The source says that split happened in "like the 1600s" but then goes on to suggest that this split happened before the Knight Templars were put to death for heresy which happened in the early 1300s. However it does also suggest that the Templars were a secret society which they only became after the 1300s...before they were a society with rumored secret practices, but not a secret society.

So I decided to go with the more unlikely text because it's in the game, but I think it's an error on the devs part because of this and I'm gonna make a note of it.

[Durakken]

1830s - Paragon City - First mention of the Paragon Firemen. <- Bad ref or I just don't get how it is referenced.

[SaintNicster]

1830s - Paragon City - First mention of the Paragon Firemen. <- Bad ref or I just don't get how it is referenced.

Last bit of homework I'm doing for you.

Turns out that it was a crossed reference from way back when Yakovlev first made the page.  It was supposed to link to the newspaper article explaining some backstory about the Steel Canyon arson attempts.  http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Paragon_Times/20050810

[Durakken]

lol SaintNicster ^.^ thanks.


1887 - Egypt - Mysterious bones found near Giza. <-- ref to a contact that has neither giza nor bones in the entire page... did search on those words didn't find anything.

[Durakken]

This is just plain wrong... Statesman hadn't even found the Well of Furies at the time...

1920s - Paragon City, during the decade - Southern United Manufacturing Company discovered to be a front for Nemesis by Statesman. Nemesis is defeated but escapes. Company dissolved.

as is this section of a 1920s entry

"Baron Zoria finds an entrance to Oranbega."

In the 1930s they go underground and 'claim' to have found it, but do not. oranbega was not found till the Rikti Invasion.



"1923 - British Isles - The Dawn Patrol is founded by Alistair Sutton[34] Note: This date is contradicted by other sources.[26]"

the second source doesn't contradict. It states that the Dawn patrol helped in various situations, but never that they formed at a different time than 1923. Also not founded by Alistair, but he was their leader...

[eabrace]

This is just plain wrong... Statesman hadn't even found the Well of Furies at the time...

1920s - Paragon City, during the decade - Southern United Manufacturing Company discovered to be a front for Nemesis by Statesman. Nemesis is defeated but escapes. Company dissolved.

Regarding Statesman finding the Well of Furies: I haven't read the Web of Arachnos, so I don't know when the exact date was supposed to be, but according to the CoH website, it's entirely possible he had found the well by that point.

He was not, however, in Paragon City at the time.

Instead of coming home in 1918 he headed east, bent on exploring the world now that he'd had a taste of it. Where he went and what happened to him during that lost decade remains a secret to this day. What is no secret is that when his ship pulled into Paragon City port in 1931 he was much more than the young private who had shipped out to fight for freedom in Europe.

The confusion in the timeline probably comes from the Steel Canyon info on the official site.

By the 1920's, most companies had erected towering skyscrapers to flaunt their success to the rest of the city. Because these huge buildings loomed over city streets like manmade mountains, the newspapers dubbed the area " Steel Canyon."

This bright era of prosperity, however, possessed a dark side. It was during this period that the Southern United Manufacturing Company relocated its headquarters to Steel Canyon.

...

When Statesman arrived on the scene, his first battles were mostly against the low-level thugs who peddled bootleg liquor in the speakeasies and bars. Soon, however, Statesman realized that a far more powerful organization was behind this illegal liquor industry.

Without some reference to how much time had passed between Southern United Manufacturing Company relocating to Steel Canyon and Statesman's arrival, it was probably presumed that these were in the same decade.

We should probably split that entry into two entries, state that SUMC relocated to SC in the 20s, and state that Statesman discovered their true nature in the 30s.

"Baron Zoria finds an entrance to Oranbega."

In the 1930s they go underground and 'claim' to have found it, but do not. oranbega was not found till the Rikti Invasion.

According to the official info for the Circle of Thorns, the Midnight Squad was unable to get rid of the Circle of Thorns because only they knew how to enter Oranbega.

That night in 1933 was the end of the Circle of Thorn's existence as a public organization. Baron Zoria and his followers literally fled into the underground, allegedly taking up quarters in the dank and dangerous ruins of Oranbega. Their first order of business was taking vengeance upon the man who had ruined them: The Dream Doctor.

Knowing full well what would happen to him, the Doctor gathered about him a group of civic-minded magicians, occultists, and scholars to help protect the city against future threats from the Circle of Thorns. He called this group the Midnight Squad, and the organization persists to this day as one of the premiere superhero organizations in Paragon City.

Over the next few decades, the Circle of Thorns and the Midnight Squad continued to skirmish back and forth. Unfortunately, since only the Circle knew how to enter the lost city of Oranbega, they always had a safe and secure base to retreat in when matters grew desperate.

The Rikti only exposed Oranbega to the rest of the world.

They excavated more rooms as they needed them, using a variation on their portal technology. Apparently, the magical runes and protection spells hiding Oranbega from the rest of the world had no effect on technology from another dimension. The Rikti had accidentally discovered the vast underground lair of the Circle of Thorns.

[SaintNicster]

Please compile all of your complaints against the In-game Timeline into one full list, then post it.

[Durakken]

Marcus Cole and Stefan Richter found the well of furies in 1930. This is stated on the calender they published stating the exact day, month, and year it happened.

The confusion does come from the article, but it's still all together wrong for that period of time. The company moved there in the 20s, but that's not what the entry says... I'll add that to mine as that skipped my mind stupidly.


The Oranbega thing... Read it carefully. It says specifically that they "allegedly" found it, but later in the article it is later over turned by saying the Rikti found it and the CoT 'revived' or whatever their word is. This indicates that they lied about finding Oranbega until the Rikti found it.

[Durakken]

Please compile all of your complaints against the In-game Timeline into one full list, then post it.

funny thing...i was going to not post unless until i had a bunch of mistakes to list, but then my PC crashed and that really doesn't work. I'll just modify the last entry i make listing probs unless someone responds to it for the various mistakes. Allows people to point out if there is something I'm missing or if it is a real mistake...

btw... Fancois Hardi <- is that correct. I don't have access to where it is in game to check. Game:
Cap au Diable Plaque (-1712, 0, -1108) Lore Keeper plaque 3

[eabrace]

The Oranbega thing... Read it carefully. It says specifically that they "allegedly" found it, but later in the article it is later over turned by saying the Rikti found it and the CoT 'revived' or whatever their word is. This indicates that they lied about finding Oranbega until the Rikti found it.

It also specifically says that the Midnight Squad couldn't completely eliminate the Thorns between 1933 and the Rikti arrival because only the Thorns knew the way into Oranbega.  They couldn't hide in Oranbega if they hadn't found an entrance.

In addition, when it says that the Rikti found the Circle, it doesn't say that they found the old Circle, it says that "Baron Zoria himself led the charge at the head of his elite Thorn Wielders against the aliens, pushing them out of Oranbega and the surrounding caves."

[Durakken]

It also specifically says that the Midnight Squad couldn't completely eliminate the Thorns between 1933 and the Rikti arrival because only the Thorns knew the way into Oranbega.  They couldn't hide in Oranbega if they hadn't found an entrance.

In addition, when it says that the Rikti found the Circle, it doesn't say that they found the old Circle, it says that "Baron Zoria himself led the charge at the head of his elite Thorn Wielders against the aliens, pushing them out of Oranbega and the surrounding caves."

It doesn't say they hid in oranbega. It says they hid underground somewhere that they don't know where. That doesn't mean Oranbega. Everything contradicts them having found it and nothing actually implies it. Rather it implies that Zoria was underground looking for it.

[eabrace]

While I will concede that the evidence presented does not state without a doubt that Zoria did find Oranbega, I would counter that the evidence also does does not state without a doubt that Zoria did not find Oranbega.

Unless someone manages to produce concrete evidence that proves or disproves either assertion, we're going to have to call it a draw.

So, I propose a compromise.  By virtue of this text:

Throughout the next six years the Circle of Thorns disappeared from view. Many in Europe thought that some no doubt well-deserved occult disaster had befallen them. In fact, Zoria and his core membership were busy searching for a physical entrance to Oranbega. To hear them tell it, they were successful.

I would suggest that we change the timeline entry from:

Golden age of the Circle of Thorns, which grow and expands like never before. Baron Zoria finds an entrance to Oranbega

To this:

Golden age of the Circle of Thorns, which grows and expands like never before. The Circle's members claim to have found a physical entrance to Oranbega.

[Durakken]

I would concede that save for one thing... Those are two different points in time.

The first part happens in the 20s. The second happens in 1933.