Author Topic: Captain America: Civil War  (Read 16771 times)

Nos482

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Captain America: Civil War
« on: May 01, 2016, 11:46:54 AM »
I watched it last night and got to say, it's a decent movie... and I'm glad the trailers didn't give everything away. Yes DoJ, I'm looking at you.

But damn, did Cap make some dumb decisions. If I were Stark, Barnes would be breathing through a plastic tube. If at all >:(

Oh, and I loved L.O.V.E.D. this Spiderman. Can't wait for his solo movies.

P.s. And Black Panther was just as badass as I expected.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2016, 08:07:22 PM by Nos482 »
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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2016, 03:06:23 AM »
Just saw it as well.  Didn't think Capt did anything really stupid other than not telling Tony.  Overall a very good movie.  Nice lite partial origin for Spidey and Black Panther.

There is a stinger after the full credits, if your bladder can hold out.  Better IMO than some of the most recent.  Nice Stan cameo.

The new Aunt May.  Whoa.
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Arcana

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2016, 07:45:58 PM »
No spoiler review:

The good:

Everything, mostly.  It is a solid action adventure movie.  The conflict between Stark and Rogers feels reasonable, and in fact amazingly in my opinion it is possible to actually see the story from both perspectives.  It *is* a Captain America movie and leans that way, but IMO Team Irom Man gets a legitimate fair shake here.

The action is great.  The opening action is great, and the big set piece near the end is *stellar*.  IMO, if The Avengers set the bar for superhero fight set piece, then Civil War raises that bar a lot.  In more ways than one.  The interplay between fighting characters and the way the fight evolved were interesting, and the cinematography allowed you to see the fights in a way that was enjoyable.  No ridiculous shaky cam, no silly closeups or blocked shots.  Things seemed to be framed just right most of the time.

Pacing was good.  At no time did I find myself wondering why they were doing what they were doing or why they were taking so long to move on.  And it is a two and a half hour movie.

Character balance was reasonable given how many of them there were.  No one felt like they were there just to be there.  Everyone had an organic reason to be there.

All the returning characters were good, but special mention to the movie adding layers to Scarlett Witch and Vision, doing a bang-up job of introducing us to the new Spiderman and Black Panther.  Those two feel to me like they have real depth to their personalities, like I already "know" them.  And that's amazing given how many characters are fighting for time in this movie.

Best line in the movie for me:  "Let them try."  Because of who says it, and the context, I actually got a small chill.

The movie works as a really good sequel to both Age of Ultron and Winter Soldier.  And that's not easy.


The Bad:

Honestly, not much.  Blaming "the Avengers" for New York and Washington was iffy to me.  Sokovia was the Avengers trying to stop an actual extinction level event: they saved potentially billions of lives but it was Stark's fault that Ultron even existed, so you can make a case there.  But if the Avengers listened to "oversight" they would have let the World Council nuke New York and *everyone* would have died.  The Avengers were even less to blame for the events of The Winter Soldier insofar as the World Council got duped into making and almost using weapons of mass destruction worldwide and "the Avengers" were not really involved per se.  Cap could have made a stronger case that the first two were not examples of why the Avengers need oversight but rather just how badly oversight itself has gone wrong in his world.

The "main villain" was relatively weak.  But I think that the supposed main villain was really just the instigator, and the real adversaries were Rogers and Stark, so this is maybe a necessary evil.


The Ugly:

Nothing stands as truly ugly in this movie, IMO.


Bottom line:

The biggest takeaway is that where Civil War succeeds and BvS fails is that Marvel has been (relatively) patient and built up to these big conflicts.  We care about what happens in Civil War because we know the characters and care about them, and the fight isn't just a hollow effects piece.  The fight is a proxy for the battle between philosophies between Rogers and Stark.  They are fighting *for* something - both of them.  They don't just all hug it out when it is over: the fight is about something, and while they don't all end up killing each other (spoiler?) neither does the reason for them to fight just magically evaporate either.  Each character is there for a reason, whether it is philosophy, or loyalty, or responsibility.  The fight is a culmination of all these characters finding their own path to that moment.  In both BvS and in Civil War there is some "trickery" involved in the big fight but that trickery seems cheap and forced in BvS, and it seems organic and logical in Civil War (at least in my opinion).  Luthor creates an artificial fight in BvS.  The villain is only the match that lights the flame in Civil War, but the fight had been building long before he got there.


Overall: 9.5 out of 10.

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2016, 05:20:46 AM »
My opinion:  A VASTLY better Avengers movie than Ulton.  Really a terrific movie overall.  A huge cast and nobody is wasted, everybody is significant in some way (well, maybe Martin Freeman who is just there to tease(?) his role in the Black Panther film ??? and is otherwise totally insignificant).  Really an impressive job and the last act nicely brings it down to the core issue.  This is a Captain America film, but like the best Cap stories of the Lee/Kirby era, it is Cap set in the world of the Avengers and SHIELD.  Story is tight, complex and interesting.

RDJ's Tony Stark continues to be the biggest best character in the Marvel Cinematic Universe (that he launched) and continues to draw out the best in all the characters around him -- and his role as antagonist (to the degree that he is) is wonderfully set against Cap and Co.  Everybody's performance was terrific.

I knew Spider-man was in this, but hadn't gotten the word (until my friend told me) that Sony has essentially outsourced their Spider-man films to Marvel Studios going forward (the smartest corporate decision in move industry history).  THAT is absolutely Spider-man and I am so incredibly hyped to see the next film.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2016, 05:09:13 PM »
My opinion:  A VASTLY better Avengers movie than Ulton.  Really a terrific movie overall.  A huge cast and nobody is wasted, everybody is significant in some way (well, maybe Martin Freeman who is just there to tease(?) his role in the Black Panther film ??? and is otherwise totally insignificant).  Really an impressive job and the last act nicely brings it down to the core issue.  This is a Captain America film, but like the best Cap stories of the Lee/Kirby era, it is Cap set in the world of the Avengers and SHIELD.  Story is tight, complex and interesting.

RDJ's Tony Stark continues to be the biggest best character in the Marvel Cinematic Universe (that he launched) and continues to draw out the best in all the characters around him -- and his role as antagonist (to the degree that he is) is wonderfully set against Cap and Co.  Everybody's performance was terrific.

I knew Spider-man was in this, but hadn't gotten the word (until my friend told me) that Sony has essentially outsourced their Spider-man films to Marvel Studios going forward (the smartest corporate decision in move industry history).  THAT is absolutely Spider-man and I am so incredibly hyped to see the next film.

Now Marvel needs to get the FF back and make a Marvel FF film. Would be heads above anything done so far and the recent travesty.

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2016, 06:30:46 PM »
Pacing was good.  At no time did I find myself wondering why they were doing what they were doing or why they were taking so long to move on.  And it is a two and a half hour movie.

To me this was the most impressive part of the movie. Even from the trailers and announcements of Black Panther and Spiderman being introduced, without knowing the full story, it was obvious there would be a LOT happening in it, seemingly too much, which is a big part of why BvS did not work. Actually watching the movie, there was even MORE happening than I expected, we got two characters introduced WELL, development of existing characters that had to be somewhat rushed in Age of Ultron (Vision and Scarlet Witch), some backstory for Bucky that was sorely needed, villains introduced, conflict, merging of movies that had not been brought into the Avengers fold yet, and so much more. And it never once felt rushed to me. I was frequently on the edge of my seat, but never lost, and that is something that many movies have failed on recently.

The one problem with cramming so much into the movie was:

Blaming "the Avengers" for New York and Washington was iffy to me.  Sokovia was the Avengers trying to stop an actual extinction level event: they saved potentially billions of lives but it was Stark's fault that Ultron even existed, so you can make a case there.  But if the Avengers listened to "oversight" they would have let the World Council nuke New York and *everyone* would have died.  The Avengers were even less to blame for the events of The Winter Soldier insofar as the World Council got duped into making and almost using weapons of mass destruction worldwide and "the Avengers" were not really involved per se.  Cap could have made a stronger case that the first two were not examples of why the Avengers need oversight but rather just how badly oversight itself has gone wrong in his world.

I felt like a lot of points on both side of this argument could have been made, but were glossed over for the sake of time and keeping up the humor and action.

The Battle of New York was not CAUSED by the Avengers necessarily (a point could be made that Thor did take responsibility for Loki's actions in the Avengers movie, and that Odin did push Loki to become the person he was), but it could also be said that if the Avengers had not spent so much time fighting each other at the start of that movie and handled Loki properly instead that a lot of, or even all of, the damage may never have happened in the first place. Loki kept taunting them, saying he wanted to be their prisoner, and they fell into it easily. Now, so did Shield, but with Fury in the wind and Shield mostly underground it is easier to blame the Avengers, a very open and public face. Knowing Stark and Rogers, I am willing to bet they blame themselves for a lot of what happened.

The events of Washington, rise of Hydra, I totally agree. The Avengers were not involved (though three now members were, so I guess I can see why it would be lumped in) but could not, in any way, be blamed for it other than some snide "In the heat of battle you should have aimed the wreckage of the flying helicarrier better before you blew it up" kind of thing.

I was more upset with the hate for the opening fight of the movie...which I will spoiler tag.
Spoiler for Hidden:
Scarlet Witch contains a man, who is a former agent of Shield, current or former agent of Hydra, who suicide bombs in the middle of a crowded marketplace. That explosion would have killed dozens, including herself and Cap. She managed to temporarily contain the blast, and clearly tried to send it somewhere to let it go, but the power of the bomb obviously was too much for her to hold for long. How is she to blame for any of this, why isnt Crossbones, or any other of the bad guys related to these events, even mentioned?

I loved the new Spidey, every moment of him as both Peter and Spiderman, and I cannot wait to see more. I also felt that they nailed Black Panther, though
Spoiler for Hidden:
seeing Wikandans doing interviews on the news and wearing suits was strange.

I would change one thing with the order of the movie though, I feel like it would have made more sense if:
Spoiler for Hidden:
Stark found out closer to the start of the movie about Bucky killing his parents, and the only one that knew he found out was Cap. As it stands it felt strange that they went from friends, to major conflict separating them, to friends again for a few seconds, to even worse conflict separating them. Instead have that be the motivation for Stark drawing the line, something most of the other Avengers don't know, give him reason to hunt Bucky from the start instead of "he probably bombed the UN", and I think the conflicts would have felt a lot smoother.

RDJ has been talking a lot lately about doing another Iron Man movie, and from what I remember the only reason they stopped with 3 is because he didnt want to continue except in crossovers, so that is pretty exciting.

Arcana

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2016, 07:14:42 PM »
I was more upset with the hate for the opening fight of the movie...which I will spoiler tag.
Spoiler for Hidden:
Scarlet Witch contains a man, who is a former agent of Shield, current or former agent of Hydra, who suicide bombs in the middle of a crowded marketplace. That explosion would have killed dozens, including herself and Cap. She managed to temporarily contain the blast, and clearly tried to send it somewhere to let it go, but the power of the bomb obviously was too much for her to hold for long. How is she to blame for any of this, why isnt Crossbones, or any other of the bad guys related to these events, even mentioned?

That was irrational, but it was the normal kind of irrational that actually happens in the world, IMO.  People need a villain to point to, and often the target of that blame is not the most logical, but the most convenient.

Quote
I would change one thing with the order of the movie though, I feel like it would have made more sense if:
Spoiler for Hidden:
Stark found out closer to the start of the movie about Bucky killing his parents, and the only one that knew he found out was Cap. As it stands it felt strange that they went from friends, to major conflict separating them, to friends again for a few seconds, to even worse conflict separating them. Instead have that be the motivation for Stark drawing the line, something most of the other Avengers don't know, give him reason to hunt Bucky from the start instead of "he probably bombed the UN", and I think the conflicts would have felt a lot smoother.

I have a thought about that.  A very long thought actually.  Long enough that I need to think about it and better compose it in another post.  Short version: I think its a little clumsy at first, but the more I think about it the more I think there's a real reason why this was necessary to get a specific point across: a really important one.

Arcana

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2016, 09:25:42 PM »
I would change one thing with the order of the movie though, I feel like it would have made more sense if:
Spoiler for Hidden:
Stark found out closer to the start of the movie about Bucky killing his parents, and the only one that knew he found out was Cap. As it stands it felt strange that they went from friends, to major conflict separating them, to friends again for a few seconds, to even worse conflict separating them. Instead have that be the motivation for Stark drawing the line, something most of the other Avengers don't know, give him reason to hunt Bucky from the start instead of "he probably bombed the UN", and I think the conflicts would have felt a lot smoother.

So here's my thought, in the most spoiler-free version I can produce.

We think of "Team Iron Man" and "Team Cap" as representing two sides of a specific issue, specifically oversight.  Stark agrees to sign on to the Sokovia Accords which mandate that a special UN committee would have jurisdiction over deciding if and when the Avengers would be allowed to act.  Rogers doesn't.  So Team Tony is in favor of oversight and Team Rogers is not in favor.  But I think there's a different duality going on besides this one.  If Thanos were to show up and threaten to destroy the Earth, how many people think Tony and Rhodes and the Vision would sit at home and wait for a committee to authorize them to save the world?  Yeah, me neither.  I think if the stakes were high enough and the threat big enough *all* of the Avengers would act, and I think they all know that.  I think even Ross knows that.  So why don't they all sign?

Tony signs for a lot of complex reasons having to do with where he is in his life at this moment in time, but I think one reason he signs is because he knows the Accords are a compromise, and in a real emergency if he had to he would violate them.  He signs knowing he would act anyway if he felt it necessary.  And that's something Rogers cannot do.  Tony can sign with a clear conscience (as clear as his conscience ever gets) because he thinks signing is a means to an end.  It is just a squiggle on a page.  Rogers cannot sign because he *knows* he doesn't believe in the Accords.  He knows he will break them if he thinks it is necessary.  And because he knows he will break them, he can't sign.

Team Tony isn't just about oversight.  Team Tony believes you have to do what is necessary.  Think about who is on Team Tony (no secret given the marketing).  Stark, obviously.  Rhodes - Tony's friend but also a soldier.  The Vision.  Romanov.  I think it is obvious that all these people can be safely characterized as being people who will do what is necessary when they feel it is necessary.  They have situational morality.  It is not a big extrapolation to see the Vision, an artificial intelligence, as having a similar governing principle: if it needs to be done, the Vision will do it.  That's just logical.

Team Cap is anchored by Steve Rogers.  He will do what is necessary but he's a man of principle.  He doesn't like to compromise for the short term expediency.  He tries to act towards higher principles, even if they have short-term negatives.  He believes what's right is always right.  He doesn't believe in necessary evils.  Even as a soldier he chafes at doing the wrong thing for the right reasons.  And so he can't sign the Accords because he believes they are wrong, and he can't even *pretend* to go along.

The two sides aren't just "oversight" vs "freedom."  It is also "practical reality" vs "principle."  And the ending actually emphasizes this second layer of Team Cap and Team Iron Man.  At the end of the movie, was Tony acting consistent with "team oversight"?  No.  He *was* acting entirely consistent with "team do what's necessary" - even, emotional that he was, at the *very* end.  All along, Tony was a man driven by his emotions, his guilt, his belief that he had a responsibility he didn't really want but couldn't avoid because he had the power to address.

Although the ending is a little clumsy, it might have been unavoidably clumsy given time and narrative constraints.  I think the ending is meant to make you think more about what these guys really stand for.  The Sokovia Accords and the oversight issue were important, but I think they were just a small component of the larger schism between Tony and Steve.  Tony is someone trying to navigate a complicated and ugly world through both daring and compromise, and he is ultimately driven by guilt.  Steve is someone trying to navigate a complicated and ugly world by reframing it with his own moral compass, making the complicated world simpler, so he can try to always do the right thing for the right reasons.  That's what the ending is all about.  And I think the last scene with Tony is meant to show that ultimately, Tony knows this too.

Now, this should all sound familiar.  The billionaire haunted by guilt and driven to always do what is necessary?  The paragon of virtue that always tries to stand for the right thing?  That duality is actually the modern Batman/Superman relationship (at least, prior to the last few DC reboots).  Batman and Superman are often portrayed as not friends, but as opposite philosophies that respect each other.  Batman thinks of Superman as a naive "boy scout" but also as something the world needs, and in particular the super powered world needs: an example to look up to.  Superman doesn't always get the job done the way Batman would like, but he serves a greater purpose Batman never could.  He makes others want to live up to his ideal.  Batman doesn't want followers and pretenders, because he knows deep down that his moral relativism would only create monsters.  Superman, by comparison, often sees Batman as too violent, too extreme, too willing to bend or break the rules.  But he also sees Batman as incorruptible in his own way, and in many versions of their story Batman is the only person Superman trusts with Kryptonite.  He doesn't just trust Batman to possess it, he also trusts Batman to be one of the few people who would actually use it if he felt it necessary.  Superman doesn't just trust Batman with his life, he trusts Batman with his death.

Somehow, perhaps without meaning to, Marvel has managed to hijack one of the best features of two of their most prominent characters.  Where BvS fails most is that the fight is between two strangers: they don't know each other, they have no history, the fight isn't about anything.  In The Dark Knight Returns the fight is about something: it is about a many-layered relationship they have had over the decades.  It is about the different philosophies they represent, the current places they find themselves in, the respectful but adversarial relationship they have often had.  It is personal in a lot of ways.  The fight between Rogers and Stark is the same: it is about something: it is about a lot of things.  The conflict between Rogers and Stark in Civil War evolves their complicated relationship, one of respect, anger, jealousy, and guilt.  They aren't friends.  They are brothers.  And at the end, they fight like brothers.  They aren't the leaders of Team Cap and Team Iron Man anymore.  The conflict between them, and what happens afterward, is personal.  It is what happens between brothers.

It takes a long time narratively to get here.  In a sense, we've been building to this moment from the very first Iron Man and Captain America movies.  I think it is important that you have these dueling personalities and philosophies, that your central characters have both a reason to stay together and yet a reason for conflict.  The Superman/Batman relationship wasn't an accident: it was the best way to convey something that is very hard to convey: respect.  If two people really like and agree with each other, it is hard to tell if they are cooperating because they respect each other, just happen to always agree, or just because one of them is willing to go along with the other.  But when the characters aren't alike, don't always agree, actively disagree, don't even especially like each other and yet work together that can very strongly convey the sense that they do so because they respect each other.  They respect each others' character, judgment, and perspective.  And when the characters respect each other, it makes it easier for us to respect them, particularly when it is earned.  Friendship is easy to portray.  Respect is much harder, but also more rewarding.  Marvel has gotten Tony and Steve to the point where we can believe they respect each other, for reasons that are earned.  That's something Warner/DC will have a much harder time getting to, because they rushed the relationship between the two characters that need to respect each other the most in their narrative.  It is something I don't even think they realize the lost potential they threw away by trying to catch up with Marvel.

That's what I think the ending is all about.  When you think about plot, and narrative, and structure, and pacing, and cinematic principles, the ending can seem abrupt and disjointed.  But if I ask you this question: where is Cap now, in terms of his character?  Where is Tony, in terms of his character?  Not their physical locations, but their characters.  And what is their relationship now?  I think most people have answers to those questions that I don't think they would have had if not for the final ending sequence.  And I think that's more important in the end.  Heading into Infinity War, and perhaps more importantly beyond it, setting this up was very important, and could pay off huge dividends in the stories to come.

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2016, 01:07:38 AM »

I really have nothing to add to that.  :)
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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2016, 01:16:45 AM »
The only sub plot that really felt forced was the
Spoiler for Hidden:
Steve/Sharon relationship.
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Arcana

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2016, 02:27:40 AM »
The only sub plot that really felt forced was the
Spoiler for Hidden:
Steve/Sharon relationship.

I didn't think it felt forced, but a lot of my friends who saw the movie thought it came out of nowhere.  I think it was a continuation of something hinted at in Winter Soldier, but I would agree that there were not enough dots between there and here to make it obvious.  In a movie that was surprising for how much narrative they managed to squeeze onto the screen for so many different characters, this is one of the few things that stands out as something that mostly happens "off screen."

I found this video on youtube that I think is interesting in the context of Civil War.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fpk1TE2_Gcc

The guys who make "Honest Trailers" get to see and react to the Russo brothers themselves reacting to the Honest Trailer for Winter Soldier.  What I find most interesting is the admission by the Russos that when they and the writers worked on the scripts for Winter Soldier and Civil War that they actually explicitly talked about "Honest Trailer-proofing" the movie.  They said when they came across something that they thought Honest Trailers might be able to make fun of, they would actually try to fix it: Joe Russo said he would often say "I'm not going to let Honest Trailers f*ing beat us up over this lapse in logic" while working on the script.  And while nothing is perfect and different people can disagree over what makes sense and what doesn't, I think Winter Soldier and Civil War do show evidence that they did try to make both movies "Honest Trailers-proof."  Yes its a comic book movie and yes it is a big budget action popcorn movie, but it still shows signs that the writers and directors cared about making a movie that made sense.

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2016, 05:10:41 AM »
Already saw that already.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2016, 10:21:20 AM »
Cumberbatch is part of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, so of course Freeman had to show up there, too...

Loved the part when the two sides regroup and Spidey swings in from a webline that must have been attached to the invisible helicopter.

I mean, there were a lot of great things about the movie, but almost everything else has been covered here in short novel form.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2016, 01:35:31 PM »
A quick question without spoilers - if possible.

When Spidey shows up, is there any explanation in the film about how he ended up on Team Tony or where he has been the last few films?

Or is he like a new hero to the world and this is his first time in public?

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2016, 02:03:50 PM »
Character balance was reasonable given how many of them there were.  No one felt like they were there just to be there.  Everyone had an organic reason to be there.


I kinda disagree here.  With Power Man, Jessica Jones, Daredevil, Hulk, Thor, and all the inhumans running around, Stark going and pulling in *just* Spiderman smacks of "let's throw this character in for no reason other than to introduce him" to me.

But, other than that, this film is nearly note perfect.  This film has made BvS it's bitch.  BvS is now bent over, holding its ankles and begging for this movie to be gentle with it.

I can see why DC was so desperate to have BvS released earlier in the season.  If it had tried to *follow* this it would have done Ishtar-level box office.

 :P
 

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2016, 03:38:32 PM »
A quick question without spoilers - if possible.

When Spidey shows up, is there any explanation in the film about how he ended up on Team Tony or where he has been the last few films?

Or is he like a new hero to the world and this is his first time in public?

the latter...
he's had his powers for 6 months and has been pretty secretive about it.  No flashy rescues and not in the newspapers, just stopping muggings and such.  There's a 5-10 second youtube video that shows him rescuing someone.  Tony tracks him down and asks for his help.

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doc7924

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2016, 05:28:45 PM »
the latter...
he's had his powers for 6 months and has been pretty secretive about it.  No flashy rescues and not in the newspapers, just stopping muggings and such.  There's a 5-10 second youtube video that shows him rescuing someone.  Tony tracks him down and asks for his help.

e-

Cool.

I really liked the first three Spidey films, yes even the 'we didn't rip off Superman 3' third one.

The new ones - I thought the first one was ok, but the second one was horrible.

Hopefully with Marvel working on the Sony Soidey films, we will get good ones again.

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2016, 06:25:32 PM »
I kinda disagree here.  With Power Man, Jessica Jones, Daredevil, Hulk, Thor, and all the inhumans running around, Stark going and pulling in *just* Spiderman smacks of "let's throw this character in for no reason other than to introduce him" to me.

I don't think it does for me, because bringing in Spiderman is not about locating firepower.  For me it is about trust.  If he approaches Jessica Jones, what would make him think she would be on *his* side?  The side of the Accords?  Nope.  Luke Cage he might not even know about because he has a way lower profile, but again: if anything Luke Cage is far more likely to be on Team Cap.  Jones is out in public but not a team player at all.  Cage is not in public at all and would want to keep it that way.  The only one of those that Stark can find (he doesn't appear to know where the Hulk is and can't easily call Thor) is Daredevil, and while Matt Murdock might be a Team Iron Man player, quite frankly he's not their league.

But it is really about trust.  Tony didn't just spin up his Marvel Universe database looking for team mates.  Its pretty obvious that he approaches Peter because (no spoilers) he thinks Peter is someone he can trust.  Tony knows how compelling Rogers is: how Rogers just naturally attracts people who want to follow him.  He inspires loyalty.  He needs people he can trust to stay on his side.  And its obvious in Civil War that he thinks he can trust Parker for various reasons.  And even so, its obvious that Tony "inoculated" Peter against Rogers (it makes sense to people who watched the movie already).

The movies don't really acknowledge the TV series, but even if they did the Inhumans are currently seen as a world threat.  Tony's not going to start randomly approaching the ones he might know about to see who might be willing to help.  He simply doesn't have the time.  He already invested time in Parker, so that's who he approaches.

One other thing.  Tony goes to the fight trying to *stop* Rogers and whoever might be helping him.  He honestly isn't trying to kill or seriously injure anyone.  Tony has to trust whoever he brings not just to fight on his side, but to do so responsibly under his parameters.  He needs to trust that not only will they fight, but they won't get out of hand.  Who can he get at all on short notice that he can trust to do that?  Even Peter was something of a reach for Tony.

That's why I think Spiderman works in this movie in my opinion.  He's not just there to add another super powered body.  He's there because he's part of Tony's narrative.  He's there because you could plug any super powered body on Team Tony, but there aren't many people in the Marvel Universe you can plug into the specific role Peter Parker plays in Tony's story.

Last thing: within the movie itself, there's an obvious reason why Tony might go to see Peter, having to do with the guilt he feels over what he finds out earlier in the film.  But it is strongly implied that Tony's been watching Peter for a while now, since long before the start of the movie.  And I think you can draw a line from Tony and Peter, back to Iron Man 3 and Tony and Harley (the kid).  Tony has daddy issues, obviously.  And amazingly there aren't any little Starks running around.  I think you can make the case that his interactions with Harley in Iron Man 3 caused Tony to start thinking about wanting to be more of a mentor and father figure to someone else.  I think the grand gesture Tony makes at the beginning of the movie is part of that: wanting to help younger people in general.  I think Peter is an expression of that same need, and I think that will carry through to the Homecoming movie.

Given all of that, I don't think its odd to me that he gets Peter and only Peter.  In fact, the more I think about it the more I believe Peter is the *only* person Tony could reach out to.

hurple

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2016, 08:56:04 PM »

Given all of that, I don't think its odd to me that he gets Peter and only Peter.  In fact, the more I think about it the more I believe Peter is the *only* person Tony could reach out to.

Didn't want to quote all of that because it is so long. 

That's all perfectly acceptable and a very well thought out explanation, and it does make sense.  However, I would replace every point where you use the word "trust" with "manipulate."

And, don't get me wrong, I loved Spider-Man in the film, and am really sold on wanting to see the next Spider-Man movie, but I still think adding him smacks a bit of stunt-casting.

But, Wonder Woman in BvS is even worse...

However, every bit of conflict in Civil War could have easily been avoided if everybody had sat down and talked it through instead of deciding to have a man-part measuring contest.  So, chalk that 2 1/2 up to macho-posturing musclehead lunkheadiness.


 :o


Arcana

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2016, 09:26:51 PM »
That's all perfectly acceptable and a very well thought out explanation, and it does make sense.  However, I would replace every point where you use the word "trust" with "manipulate."

Conceded.  But it is Tony Stark, and Tony's a schemer.  I think he really does care for Peter, and he does want to help and protect him, but I think with Tony "guidance" and "manipulate into doing the right thing" are basically synonymous in his mind.


Quote
However, every bit of conflict in Civil War could have easily been avoided if everybody had sat down and talked it through instead of deciding to have a man-part measuring contest.  So, chalk that 2 1/2 up to macho-posturing musclehead lunkheadiness.

A lot of people have said variations on that, but I don't agree.  Sure, its a superhero movie, and it is an action movie, so of course things get turned up to eleven.  But the movie did show an honest attempt by Tony and Steve to talk it out.  They even come this close ---><--- before it all falls apart.  But at the end Steve felt that there was an exigent emergency that simply couldn't wait, and to their credit the fight isn't just random fighting: no one there has as their sole purpose fighting for the sake of fighting.  I liked what one reviewer mentioned in particular: Black Panther isn't there for any of the Team Cap vs Team Iron nonsense.  He is laser focused on one thing, and everything he does is to do that one thing.  I would add that Cap is there to do one thing, and all his energy is devoted to doing that one thing.  Tony is there to do one thing, and all his energy is devoted to doing that one thing.  And none of those things is actually engaging in a protracted fight.  None of them is trying to "win" anything.  The fighting happens because what each person is trying to do runs counter to what the others are trying to do.  But none of them are trying to engage in any more fighting than is necessary.

That's something else I find interesting about Civil War.  Almost everyone (everyone with a positive review of the movie, which is about 95% of everyone) agrees the fighting, particularly the climactic set piece battle, is some of the best superhero action ever put to screen.  And yet the fighting isn't even the purpose to the entire scene.  *None* of them is fighting just to fight.  All of them are actually trying to do something the narrative has brought them to, and the fighting is just what they have to do to get someone else out of their way.  It is fighting that is part of the story, not fighting that is just a break from the story.

T'Challa had no reason to trust Rogers, and so he could not possibly have been talked down in the heat of battle.  Steve couldn't be talked down because he felt he had to act.  Tony equally believed that what Rogers was doing threatened the ability for the Avengers to act at all.  The movie shows the parties legitimately discussing all sides of the issue, but the differences between them were just intractable, and then events happened too quickly for them to be resolved through compromise.

And yet it almost did come down to two men who respect each other agreeing to compromise.  So in my opinion, I think the movie does show that the fighting wasn't just about posturing, and the heroes didn't resort to fighting first.  It was the last resort of most everyone involved, with perhaps one understandable exception.