Author Topic: Captain America: Civil War  (Read 16578 times)

Vee

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #40 on: May 23, 2016, 07:28:24 AM »
Finally saw it. Thought it was the best of the MCU so far.

It's funny since they're not in the plans but it really seemed to me to be a perfect set up for a Captain America: Secret Avengers movie. And the way they set up and left Zemo would segue nicely into a Thunderbolts movie.

Spoiler for Hidden:
I thought all the characters and action were well done but it still struck me as funny that they used the Superfriends logic of Giant normal guy > any super powered guy. It really took way longer and way more of them than it should have to beat a Giant Scott Lang with basically no combat training. Probably the biggest disappointment to me (well apart from it being terrible) of the Ant Man movie was them picking Scott. It meant I'd never get to see a live action version of Cap beating the hell out of giant Pym.

Arcana

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #41 on: May 23, 2016, 09:14:51 PM »
Spoiler for Hidden:
I thought all the characters and action were well done but it still struck me as funny that they used the Superfriends logic of Giant normal guy > any super powered guy. It really took way longer and way more of them than it should have to beat a Giant Scott Lang with basically no combat training. Probably the biggest disappointment to me (well apart from it being terrible) of the Ant Man movie was them picking Scott. It meant I'd never get to see a live action version of Cap beating the hell out of giant Pym.

Spoiler for Hidden:
I thought they handled Giant Man fairly well, for this reason: he actually isn't "greater" than the others, just bigger (and thus stronger in the physical resiliency sense).  But while he was bigger, he was also slower and not really very combat effective.  He was swatting at things and throwing big things, but he didn't really "defeat" the rest of the team.  What he did do was what he set out to do: he was a really effective distraction, and it required a coordinated effort from Team Iron Man to bring him down - literally.  Doing that tied up [pun intended] Spider Man, Iron Man, and War Machine.  That made it easier for Cap and Bucky to get to the Quinjet, which is all they were trying to do.  But just tripping him and knocking him over was enough to more or less take him out of the fight.

Vee

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #42 on: May 23, 2016, 09:34:38 PM »
Spoiler for Hidden:
Yeah it was fine and worked narratively, just struck me as funny. They hit a reasonable point on the spectrum between Cap pummeling Pym easily and giant Toyman using Wonder Woman as a yo-yo.

Codewalker

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #43 on: May 23, 2016, 09:56:01 PM »
Spoiler for Hidden:
The only thing that bugged me (no pun intended) about Giant Ant-Man was that in the Ant-Man movie, there was some mumbo-jumbo about him being stronger when he's small because his molecules are compressed tighter or something. So apparently he retains the same mass regardless of size? That's supported by creating large dents in the car roof when he hits it. But then he can ride ants around without crushing them, and people don't fall over just from him walking on their shoulders, so his super-density or whatever seems awfully selective. Comic book logic I guess. I didn't read the ant-man comics so I don't know the 'real' explanation if there is one.

Either way, if he's stronger because he's tiny, shouldn't Giant-Man be... super weak?

Was totally worth it to see him play up the theatrics with his movie monster face though.

Vee

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #44 on: May 23, 2016, 10:21:40 PM »
It's basically mumbo jumbo in the comics too, though he retains his strength without retaining mass when small. The extra mass goes to another dimension and he draws mass from there when increasing size. I was never clear on why he had giant strength instead of just regular guy strength when large though.

Kaos Arcanna

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #45 on: May 23, 2016, 10:30:30 PM »
I don't have my old Marvel Handbooks nearby, but in those Giant-Man/Goliath was one of the weaker super strong heroes out there. At 10 foot tall he could lift (press) 1500 pounds ... putting him at less than twice the strength of Captain America in the same books. At 50 foot he could lift maybe 20 tons or something ... and he was established as actually being able to grow too large for his muscles to support his weight.  He always had his full strength at ant-size in the past-- which is a seriously scary thought when you think about how tiny an ant typically is.

I suppose you can handwave it that the mass he gains from the other dimension is stronger and more durable than normal human flesh ... after all, the Hulk also gains mass from another dimension and he was MUCH stronger than Giant-Man ever was.

Vee

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #46 on: May 23, 2016, 10:58:41 PM »
Sounds good to me.

I remember they kept upping his max height as the years went on. iirc 35 feet was too much for him in the early years.

Arcana

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #47 on: May 24, 2016, 01:42:40 AM »
Spoiler for Hidden:
The only thing that bugged me (no pun intended) about Giant Ant-Man was that in the Ant-Man movie, there was some mumbo-jumbo about him being stronger when he's small because his molecules are compressed tighter or something. So apparently he retains the same mass regardless of size? That's supported by creating large dents in the car roof when he hits it. But then he can ride ants around without crushing them, and people don't fall over just from him walking on their shoulders, so his super-density or whatever seems awfully selective. Comic book logic I guess. I didn't read the ant-man comics so I don't know the 'real' explanation if there is one.

Either way, if he's stronger because he's tiny, shouldn't Giant-Man be... super weak?

Was totally worth it to see him play up the theatrics with his movie monster face though.

I would recommend spoiler tags for this topic.

Pym particles are more mumbo jumbo than most comic book technobabble, but if you want at least a semblance of something that is mildly plausible:

Spoiler for Hidden:
There's actually two distinct things we call "mass" - gravitational mass and inertial mass.  Gravitational mass is the physical property of generating and responding to a gravitational field, or if you prefer its the general relativistic property of warping spacetime.  Inertial mass is the physical property of resisting accelerating induced by a force, i.e. F=MA.  General Relativity postulates these two masses are identical and equivalent.  But there's no direct proof they are (besides General Relativity doing really well with that assumption).  To explain what happens in the movie Ant-Man you pretty much have to assume that Henry Pym discovers a way to violate the principle of inertial mass/gravitational mass equivalence.  Pym particles reduce gravitational mass without reducing inertial mass.  So when Ant-Man stands on the end of a gun his gravitational mass doesn't yank the gun towards the ground, and his gravitational weight doesn't crush the ants he rides.  But when he punches things his arm has the same inertia as it does at full size which allows him to generate  the same amount of force but concentrated in a smaller target area.  There are problems with this that would take a lot of gyrations to explain, like how the ants he rides can accelerate him forward even if he doesn't crush them, but you're probably not going to explain all of this.

In any case, if we assume that one of the great discoveries Pym makes is a way to decouple inertial mass and gravitational mass as part of the shrinking process, there's a way to grow objects in a way that manipulates their gravitational mass and inertial mass in similar ways.  But if gravitational rose proportional to size while inertial mass remained constant he'd be really easy to just tip over.  Also, gravitational mass scaling proportionally upward with size creates squared/cubed structural effects: he could snap his legs because they were not strong enough to hold his weight - Scott even jokingly remarks he might tear himself in half.  To make Giant Man work, he has to get bigger, get stronger, but not have the cubically scaling weight of his body overpower his strength.    He has to have a different ratio of inertial mass and gravitational mass than what shrinking does.  That has to be carefully tuned, so growing isn't just the inverse of shrinking.  But it can function on similar principles, assuming you buy into those principles working in the first place.

If you want to hear something *really* crazy, I don't think Ant-Man shrinks.  I think Pym particles shrink the space he occupies in a very complex way.  But that's a really, really, really technical discussion.  But I think it is the only way to explain how Scott enters "the quantum realm" in the movie Ant-Man.

Tenzhi

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #48 on: May 24, 2016, 03:31:24 AM »
I think Pym particles shrink the space he occupies in a very complex way.  But that's a really, really, really technical discussion.  But I think it is the only way to explain how Scott enters "the quantum realm" in the movie Ant-Man.

So... the ol' "space is warped and time is bendable" trick...
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.

Arcana

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #49 on: May 24, 2016, 04:09:04 AM »
So... the ol' "space is warped and time is bendable" trick...

Here's a fact that isn't offered to "prove" anything, but it might inspire entertaining thoughts.  Dark energy, the energy component that causes universal inflation, actually has negative pressure.  Its a little tricky, but imagine a balloon which has positive pressure (gas) inside.  To squeeze it and make it smaller you have to put energy into it: you have to work to squeeze it smaller.  But imagine the balloon now is filled with a negative pressure gas, if that was possible.  Now, the reverse would be true: to expand the balloon you'd have to work to pull it outward and the pressure would be fighting you. And if you tried to squeeze it smaller then the reverse would happen also: instead of using energy to squeeze the balloon smaller you'd actually extract energy out of the balloon.  Dark energy is kind of like that: as a region of space expands energy is created to fill the space to the same density, and when a region of space collapses energy is lost.  Dark energy's negative pressure wants to contract, to pull inward, but it can't because space is filled with the dark energy field in every direction.  In effect, dark energy's "pull" is pulling equally in all directions.**  All that's left is the general relativistic effect of that energy content altering spacetime, and for mathy reasons that manifests as an expansion.

Now suppose Pym particles could interact with the dark energy field.  What would happen to regions of space cut off from the negative pressure field of the rest of the universe?  What would happen to regions of space where the perfect balance of negative pressure by the dark energy field was no longer in perfect balance?  Honestly, I'm not sure: my relativity dial doesn't quite go that high at the moment.  I'm not even sure if general relativity has a precise answer to this question, but maybe Henry Pym discovered a better answer than Einstein did.


** Technically, I'm not sure if dark energy's negative pressure "pulls" on anything in particular: in at least some formulations dark energy has negative pressure, but like a tree falling in the woods with no one to hear it that pressure has nothing to interact with because dark energy doesn't interact with matter.  But in this speculative context that is something you could reasonably hand wave away.

Pep Rally

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #50 on: May 24, 2016, 05:26:44 AM »
I saw the movie opening Friday, and again last week, and I think it may be the best superhero movie I've ever seen. It's at least right up there with the Avengers, Winter Soldier, and GotG. Absolutely awesome. 

I pretty much agree with Arcana on all points about the movie. 9.5 seems accurate.

Regarding the Howard Stark assassination video, I figured they didn't want to just show the low quality 1991 VHS security footage, so they intercut the parts where you are actually there in 1991 at the car crash. Tony doesn't actually see from every angle at the car crash(He may add that with his imagination).

Also, I think Tony specifically picked Spider-man for not only the science, trust, and mentor reasons, but because his powers, specifically high agility, spider-sense, and webbing are perfect to keep him out of harms way, and incapacitate(not harm) his foes. Tony was probably too proud to go to Tom Waits for some non-lethal weapons.

The reason Cap called in Ant-man, Hawkeye, and Scarlet Witch was because they were going to Siberia to fight a bunch of "psycho-assassins" that were supposed to be worse than Bucky, not to fight Team Iron-man.

Tony brought backup to make the sides so lopsided that Cap would surrender without a fight. Failing that, Spider-man would web up Team Cap. He did not count on Cap having more help.

hurple

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #51 on: May 24, 2016, 02:02:09 PM »
Spoiler for Hidden:
giant Toyman using Wonder Woman as a yo-yo.

Oooooo, I hope that'a in the upcoming movie.

 ;D :o ;D

hurple

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #52 on: May 24, 2016, 02:05:13 PM »
It's basically mumbo jumbo in the comics too, though he retains his strength without retaining mass when small. The extra mass goes to another dimension and he draws mass from there when increasing size. I was never clear on why he had giant strength instead of just regular guy strength when large though.

Maybe he's similar to The Atom who can also control his weight and density independent of his size. 

hurple

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #53 on: May 24, 2016, 02:09:36 PM »
I saw the movie opening Friday, and again last week, and I think it may be the best superhero movie I've ever seen. It's at least right up there with the Avengers, Winter Soldier, and GotG. Absolutely awesome. 

I pretty much agree with Arcana on all points about the movie. 9.5 seems accurate.

Regarding the Howard Stark assassination video, I figured they didn't want to just show the low quality 1991 VHS security footage, so they intercut the parts where you are actually there in 1991 at the car crash. Tony doesn't actually see from every angle at the car crash(He may add that with his imagination).

Also, I think Tony specifically picked Spider-man for not only the science, trust, and mentor reasons, but because his powers, specifically high agility, spider-sense, and webbing are perfect to keep him out of harms way, and incapacitate(not harm) his foes. Tony was probably too proud to go to Tom Waits for some non-lethal weapons.

The reason Cap called in Ant-man, Hawkeye, and Scarlet Witch was because they were going to Siberia to fight a bunch of "psycho-assassins" that were supposed to be worse than Bucky, not to fight Team Iron-man.

Tony brought backup to make the sides so lopsided that Cap would surrender without a fight. Failing that, Spider-man would web up Team Cap. He did not count on Cap having more help.

This makes sense.  But, I have to ask, when did Tom Waits put his recording career on hold to become a weapons manufacturer?  He did not mention that in the last Uncut interview?


 :o


Pep Rally

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #54 on: May 24, 2016, 02:44:16 PM »
This makes sense.  But, I have to ask, when did Tom Waits put his recording career on hold to become a weapons manufacturer?  He did not mention that in the last Uncut interview?


 :o

Around 1999, he invented the Blame-Thrower, Electro-Nuclear Magnet, Shrinker, and Canned-Tornado to help the Mystery Men aka Super Squad defeat Cassanova Frankenstein, and save Champion City.


edit: I'd also like to add that Ant-man does have some fight training[from Hank(former superhero Ant-man), and Hope(who had been training in hopes of being a superhero as shown in his movie)] on top of master burglary skills(including parkour). He may not be at Scarlet Witch, or Cap level, but he does know Size-Fu.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 04:26:56 PM by Pep Rally »

Garble

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #55 on: May 24, 2016, 04:39:23 PM »
Loved it.

But I did find myself wondering what Vision was doing during most of the airport fight.
Maybe he just wanted to watch for a while before swooping in out of fear of hurting anyone? Because with his established powers from Age of Ultron he alone could have taken out most of Team Cap pretty quickly.

And Pym particles are just straight up magic. They make Reed's unstable molecules seem perfectly reasonable.

Arcana

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #56 on: May 24, 2016, 06:38:18 PM »
And Pym particles are just straight up magic.

Plausibility runs the gamut from one to ten, but remember that even 9.999 on the plausibility scale technically means it is just as impossibly magical as 1.0.

Quote
But I did find myself wondering what Vision was doing during most of the airport fight.
Maybe he just wanted to watch for a while before swooping in out of fear of hurting anyone? Because with his established powers from Age of Ultron he alone could have taken out most of Team Cap pretty quickly.

Maybe he was ... distracted.

Arcana

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #57 on: May 24, 2016, 06:50:00 PM »
Tony brought backup to make the sides so lopsided that Cap would surrender without a fight. Failing that, Spider-man would web up Team Cap. He did not count on Cap having more help.

He had to know Cap was going to have some help.  He had to know Falcon and Winter Soldier would be with Cap, and:

Spoiler for Hidden:
The Vision knew that Hawkeye helped Scarlet Witch escape.  The only wild card was Ant-Man, especially when "Tiny Dude is big now."

Codewalker

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #58 on: May 24, 2016, 07:03:40 PM »
But I did find myself wondering what Vision was doing during most of the airport fight.
Maybe he just wanted to watch for a while before swooping in out of fear of hurting anyone? Because with his established powers from Age of Ultron he alone could have taken out most of Team Cap pretty quickly.

Pretty sure Scarlet Witch was keeping him occupied. If Thor had been there, he would have been the logical choice to take on Vision, given Vision's power level as shown in AoU. However, they seem to have amped up Wanda's abilities quite a bit in between, making her a significant player. Or maybe it's just Vision's achilles' heel since it's something he doesn't really understand.

Arcana

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #59 on: May 24, 2016, 07:18:28 PM »
Pretty sure Scarlet Witch was keeping him occupied. If Thor had been there, he would have been the logical choice to take on Vision, given Vision's power level as shown in AoU. However, they seem to have amped up Wanda's abilities quite a bit in between, making her a significant player. Or maybe it's just Vision's achilles' heel since it's something he doesn't really understand.

I believe the Russos have stated that as they see it Wanda's powers theoretically make her one of the most powerful Avengers, rivaling Thor, the Hulk, and Vision, but it is her own fear of her powers that limits her.  Between her ability to manipulate minds and her telekinetic or reality altering powers (it is unclear which it actually is) she clearly has the theoretical ability to incapacitate Iron Man, confuse the Hulk, and (itty bitty spoiler) she can challenge the Vision.  If we discover her powers can affect Mjolnir (even to just send it flying away from Thor or otherwise prevent him from reaching it) that would make her the equal of all the most powerful Avengers at least individually, if she's willing to use those powers to their fullest potential.

That makes her an interesting wild card going into Infinity War.  Especially with the Vision possessing one of the Infinity Stones in probably a very integral way.

And yeah, I assumed that most of the time Wanda and Vision were keeping each other in check.  They clearly have the most ability to change the course of the fight, but are also the two that have the most self-restraint about how they use their powers against the other Avengers and each other.