My opinion: A VASTLY better Avengers movie than Ulton. Really a terrific movie overall. A huge cast and nobody is wasted, everybody is significant in some way (well, maybe Martin Freeman who is just there to tease(?) his role in the Black Panther film ??? and is otherwise totally insignificant). Really an impressive job and the last act nicely brings it down to the core issue. This is a Captain America film, but like the best Cap stories of the Lee/Kirby era, it is Cap set in the world of the Avengers and SHIELD. Story is tight, complex and interesting.
RDJ's Tony Stark continues to be the biggest best character in the Marvel Cinematic Universe (that he launched) and continues to draw out the best in all the characters around him -- and his role as antagonist (to the degree that he is) is wonderfully set against Cap and Co. Everybody's performance was terrific.
I knew Spider-man was in this, but hadn't gotten the word (until my friend told me) that Sony has essentially outsourced their Spider-man films to Marvel Studios going forward (the smartest corporate decision in move industry history). THAT is absolutely Spider-man and I am so incredibly hyped to see the next film.
Pacing was good. At no time did I find myself wondering why they were doing what they were doing or why they were taking so long to move on. And it is a two and a half hour movie.
Blaming "the Avengers" for New York and Washington was iffy to me. Sokovia was the Avengers trying to stop an actual extinction level event: they saved potentially billions of lives but it was Stark's fault that Ultron even existed, so you can make a case there. But if the Avengers listened to "oversight" they would have let the World Council nuke New York and *everyone* would have died. The Avengers were even less to blame for the events of The Winter Soldier insofar as the World Council got duped into making and almost using weapons of mass destruction worldwide and "the Avengers" were not really involved per se. Cap could have made a stronger case that the first two were not examples of why the Avengers need oversight but rather just how badly oversight itself has gone wrong in his world.
I was more upset with the hate for the opening fight of the movie...which I will spoiler tag.Spoiler for Hidden:
I would change one thing with the order of the movie though, I feel like it would have made more sense if:Spoiler for Hidden:
I would change one thing with the order of the movie though, I feel like it would have made more sense if:Spoiler for Hidden:
The only sub plot that really felt forced was theSpoiler for Hidden:
Character balance was reasonable given how many of them there were. No one felt like they were there just to be there. Everyone had an organic reason to be there.
A quick question without spoilers - if possible.
When Spidey shows up, is there any explanation in the film about how he ended up on Team Tony or where he has been the last few films?
Or is he like a new hero to the world and this is his first time in public?
the latter...
he's had his powers for 6 months and has been pretty secretive about it. No flashy rescues and not in the newspapers, just stopping muggings and such. There's a 5-10 second youtube video that shows him rescuing someone. Tony tracks him down and asks for his help.
e-
I kinda disagree here. With Power Man, Jessica Jones, Daredevil, Hulk, Thor, and all the inhumans running around, Stark going and pulling in *just* Spiderman smacks of "let's throw this character in for no reason other than to introduce him" to me.
Given all of that, I don't think its odd to me that he gets Peter and only Peter. In fact, the more I think about it the more I believe Peter is the *only* person Tony could reach out to.
That's all perfectly acceptable and a very well thought out explanation, and it does make sense. However, I would replace every point where you use the word "trust" with "manipulate."
However, every bit of conflict in Civil War could have easily been avoided if everybody had sat down and talked it through instead of deciding to have a man-part measuring contest. So, chalk that 2 1/2 up to macho-posturing musclehead lunkheadiness.
I got the sense that Stark was interested in Spidey because of Science. The superheroic feats may have initially put Spidey on Stark's radar, but the science behind the webbing made him more than just another masked daredevil with inhuman strength.
A lot of people have said variations on that, but I don't agree. Sure, its a superhero movie, and it is an action movie, so of course things get turned up to eleven. But the movie did show an honest attempt by Tony and Steve to talk it out. They even come this close ---><--- before it all falls apart. But at the end Steve felt that there was an exigent emergency that simply couldn't wait, and to their credit the fight isn't just random fighting: no one there has as their sole purpose fighting for the sake of fighting.
If they had agreed to simply arrest him, take him into custody, then everything could have been avoided.
So, again, it's an argument in favor of Captain America's viewpoint. In fact, as pointed out New York was almost nuked by the "world council" and SHIELD was taken over by Hydra, so neither of those were the fault of the Avengers, and in fact, they saved (potentially) millions of lives in those situations. It was the "powers that be" that was the problem there.
But, really, all that shows is that Steve Rogers is not a very good negotiator that none of that was ever mentioned. ;D
Well yes and no. "They" was Ross and the government. Tony had nothing to do with that. So no amount of talking between Tony and Steve could have prevented that. And even besides that, the ultimate trigger that broke things down was Steve discovering that Tony waswhich is a separate issue from Bucky.Spoiler for Hidden:
But, then, it's just a movie, and as usual, shortcuts are taken to get to the major set-piece (in this case the fight at the airport) so if Captain America has to look like a muscle-headed goof for that to happen, so be it.
Much is made (rightfully so) about Marvel expanding the genre: Winter Soldier is a spy-thriller, Avengers is an action adventure, Ant-Man is a heist movie. If they want to take the long way everywhere, I guess they could. We could have the legal police procedural Law and Order: Sokovia Accords deal with Cap challenging the legality of the arrest warrant for James Barnes. C.S.I.V.I.S.I.O.N would be a forensic investigation drama dealing with the task of determining the identity of the bomber. Den Sokovia Sorg would be a psychological drama dealing with the existential unfairness that life presents to people of conscience and the nature of brotherly love.
So here's my thought, in the most spoiler-free version I can produce.
Also, the more I think about it, the less okay I am with what they did toSpoiler for Hidden:
Well this will need a spoiler tag.Spoiler for Hidden:
I also agree that Zemo didn't do anything that Black Widow couldn't do in terms of spycraft and psychological manipulation.
Well this will need a spoiler tag.Spoiler for Hidden:
I think the "villian" Zemo was just a MacGuffin himself. It was all to lead up to the airport scene. That was the money shot, and everything else was filler.
Good filler, mind you...
Very very good filler...
But, I am taking an educated guess here, that the screenwriter(s) were told they wanted:
- A fight between all the Marvel movie heroes (+ Spider-Man but - Hulk and Thor (for some reason))
- Intro Black Panther
- Resolve the Bucky hanging threads
- Split the Avengers into two camps
So, they wrote what we got. A very good script with some pretty deft handling of the mandates such that very little feels forced or shoe-horned in. A very impressive job all-around.
Much better than DC's attempt. And I hate to say that as a lifelong DC fan and not a Marvel fan. But it is what it is.
but - Hulk and Thor (for some reason)That one's easy to explain.
That one's easy to explain.
From a story standpoint, Thor's got enough to deal with back home right now. And Banner just wants to hide for a while. (Though, I believe I've heard some rumblings that Hulk might show up in Ragnarok.)
From a writing view, it's pretty easy to imagine Thor and Hulk ending up on the same side of the argument presented in Civil War. Thor's obvious. He's going to go where he wants when he wants. He's a god. Good luck trying to control him. And there's no way Banner's going to allow the government to have any sort of authority to use the Hulk as a weapon. You place Thor and Hulk on the same side of that argument, and suddenly the movie's over in about 5 minutes.
It's a real testament to the screenwriters and filmmakers that they pulled it off. Those guys just guaranteed themselves a long career in Hollywood.
That one's easy to explain.
From a story standpoint, Thor's got enough to deal with back home right now. And Banner just wants to hide for a while. (Though, I believe I've heard some rumblings that Hulk might show up in Ragnarok.)
From a writing view, it's pretty easy to imagine Thor and Hulk ending up on the same side of the argument presented in Civil War. Thor's obvious. He's going to go where he wants when he wants. He's a god. Good luck trying to control him. And there's no way Banner's going to allow the government to have any sort of authority to use the Hulk as a weapon. You place Thor and Hulk on the same side of that argument, and suddenly the movie's over in about 5 minutes.
Well, if nothing else they will be busy until 2019, since they were handed Infinity War Part One and Two (although they've said they are renaming them because they aren't really a two part movie: almost everyone pretty much expects them now to be called Avengers: Infinity Gauntlet and Avengers: Infinity War or something similar).
Unlike Joss Whedon who admitted to extreme exhaustion after the first Avengers movie and admitted that played a role in some of the mistakes in Age of Ultron, the Russo brothers seem pretty jazzed in general about working on these films and still seem to be excited to be working on Infinity War. I think that matters a great deal to their success so far.
Spoiler for Hidden:
Spoiler for Hidden:
I think Pym particles shrink the space he occupies in a very complex way. But that's a really, really, really technical discussion. But I think it is the only way to explain how Scott enters "the quantum realm" in the movie Ant-Man.
So... the ol' "space is warped and time is bendable" trick...
Spoiler for Hidden:
It's basically mumbo jumbo in the comics too, though he retains his strength without retaining mass when small. The extra mass goes to another dimension and he draws mass from there when increasing size. I was never clear on why he had giant strength instead of just regular guy strength when large though.
I saw the movie opening Friday, and again last week, and I think it may be the best superhero movie I've ever seen. It's at least right up there with the Avengers, Winter Soldier, and GotG. Absolutely awesome.
I pretty much agree with Arcana on all points about the movie. 9.5 seems accurate.
Regarding the Howard Stark assassination video, I figured they didn't want to just show the low quality 1991 VHS security footage, so they intercut the parts where you are actually there in 1991 at the car crash. Tony doesn't actually see from every angle at the car crash(He may add that with his imagination).
Also, I think Tony specifically picked Spider-man for not only the science, trust, and mentor reasons, but because his powers, specifically high agility, spider-sense, and webbing are perfect to keep him out of harms way, and incapacitate(not harm) his foes. Tony was probably too proud to go to Tom Waits for some non-lethal weapons.
The reason Cap called in Ant-man, Hawkeye, and Scarlet Witch was because they were going to Siberia to fight a bunch of "psycho-assassins" that were supposed to be worse than Bucky, not to fight Team Iron-man.
Tony brought backup to make the sides so lopsided that Cap would surrender without a fight. Failing that, Spider-man would web up Team Cap. He did not count on Cap having more help.
This makes sense. But, I have to ask, when did Tom Waits put his recording career on hold to become a weapons manufacturer? He did not mention that in the last Uncut interview?
:o
And Pym particles are just straight up magic.
But I did find myself wondering what Vision was doing during most of the airport fight.
Maybe he just wanted to watch for a while before swooping in out of fear of hurting anyone? Because with his established powers from Age of Ultron he alone could have taken out most of Team Cap pretty quickly.
Tony brought backup to make the sides so lopsided that Cap would surrender without a fight. Failing that, Spider-man would web up Team Cap. He did not count on Cap having more help.
But I did find myself wondering what Vision was doing during most of the airport fight.
Maybe he just wanted to watch for a while before swooping in out of fear of hurting anyone? Because with his established powers from Age of Ultron he alone could have taken out most of Team Cap pretty quickly.
Pretty sure Scarlet Witch was keeping him occupied. If Thor had been there, he would have been the logical choice to take on Vision, given Vision's power level as shown in AoU. However, they seem to have amped up Wanda's abilities quite a bit in between, making her a significant player. Or maybe it's just Vision's achilles' heel since it's something he doesn't really understand.
An intelligent person should come to the conclusion that looking at this movie as a simplistic moral cartoon is the wrong way to look at it if that perspective doesn't consistently arrive at the same conclusion. A suspicious person might even think the writers and directors intended to create this intellectual trap as a very subtle meta statement about reviewers that approach their work with this perspective. I'd like to think that somewhere in the back of their minds they thought this might happen, and smiled. If so, bravo.
2. Ross tries to guilt trip the Avengers but fails to mention things like the WSC attempting to nuke New York and Rogers fails to mention this either. A lot of people keep pointing this out, but first it is not a plot hole if people act differently than you, it is only a plot hole if they act out of character for incomprehensible reasons. Ross is trying to make the case that people are afraid of the Avengers. He actually stated that explicitly. Rogers saying "well, you guys do bad things also" is irrelevant to that point, and Rogers doesn't mention it precisely because it is irrelevant and Rogers didn't grow up arguing on the internet. It is not a plot hole if people discuss things differently than you.
it is quite a glaring omission later, when Captain America is explaining why The Avengers being "conntrolled" by a world council would be a bad thing. If they're willing to nuke NY, then they are way more than willing to use the Avengers as weapons to further their political agenda rather than to help people.
Again, not a "plot hole" but a HUGE miss on the Captain America side of the debate not to use this to further his argument.
As I recall, the movie made quite a big point out of the fact the Avengers would be working for the UN, not SHIELD or the WSC. So, once again, the misdeeds of the WSC aren't relevant.
They are relevant as an example of a governing body taking the wrong steps. Such as, "Yes, we were answerable to a governing body previously, and they wanted to nuke New York City. Luckily, we were there to stop them."
See?
In other words, Ross' response to "Yes, we were answerable to a governing body previously, and they wanted to nuke New York City. Luckily, we were there to stop them" could be to say "So? You want to tell the world that? And then what? The world wants you on a leash. If you tell the world that they can't trust central oversight, then what? They just all change their minds? No. They each demand their own individual governments deal with it on their own, without cooperating with any other. You can't escape politicians by avoiding the Accords. You'll just trade one group for two hundred groups of them. Oh, and you're all still US citizens, so whether you sign or not you'd still be subject to the laws of the United States of America. So if the Accords collapse, the US government will probably take unilateral action to control you, and that won't require you to sign anything."They never had any right to be an independent world police force. I'm not sure if they negotiated their way into Nigeria or just landed with a mission in mind. While the 200 participants are fighting with each other, the accords collapse and the Avengers are back to being an independent body. No accords means back to business as usual for the Avengers.
Its a valid point to bring up, but it leads to a losing position overall.
They never had any right to be an independent world police force. I'm not sure if they negotiated their way into Nigeria or just landed with a mission in mind. While the 200 participants are fighting with each other, the accords collapse and the Avengers are back to being an independent body. No accords means back to business as usual for the Avengers.
Also - they're not all American citizens. Scarlet Witch is likely Sokovian. Vision might not even be legally a person. Black Widow might be Russian, but I'm sure she has lots of passports. Beyond which, there would certainly be a valid constitutional challenge about being unilaterally controlled by the US government. The draft works because it's applied evenly to a class of people without being specific. Drafting an individual wouldn't fly, I think. Not to mention these people aren't without the means to fight back.
Not quite. No Accords means the Avengers become officially criminals when they act without the permission of the government of the nation they try to operate within, whereas before they were operating within a grey area where everyone looked the other way.
And as previously mentioned, getting permission is not a trivial affair. I know how complex this would be if it was an outside agency attempting to work within the US under US law, it can't be all that much better when it is the reverse. For reference, look up the regulatory environment that Interpol works under.
I stand corrected. The Avengers aren't all US citizens. Thor, obviously, is not. Wanda is not. However, that doesn't make things better, it makes them worse. They are all still subject to US law, but on top of that the US government can demand that the non-citizen members of the Avengers comply with its requests or be expelled. Non-citizens have no constitutional right to remain in the country and they can be asked to leave for any reason or no reason.
I'm not sure what US constitutional challenge the Avengers would have to being compelled to work for the US government. They can refuse, but they can then be prosecuted whenever they act in a manner that would be illegal if not sanctioned by the government.
There's nothing grey about going into a country uninvited and starting a police action. At best the countries turned a blind eye to it, but they were always blatantly illegal unless invited.
Personally, I would love to see a Marvel courtroom drama where they debate whether Vision is a person or equipment (a la ST:TNG's The Measure of a Man). Marvel keeps saying that Super-heroes isn't a genre, it's a type of character that can be put into any genre. Daredevil is already a courtroom drama and Jessica Jones is pretty much a straight drama (as I understand). How about the Marvel movie version of "12 Angry Men"? When do we get the first Rom-Com?
Personally, I would love to see a Marvel courtroom drama where they debate whether Vision is a person or equipment (a la ST:TNG's The Measure of a Man).