Author Topic: Captain America: Civil War  (Read 16728 times)

Nos482

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Captain America: Civil War
« on: May 01, 2016, 11:46:54 AM »
I watched it last night and got to say, it's a decent movie... and I'm glad the trailers didn't give everything away. Yes DoJ, I'm looking at you.

But damn, did Cap make some dumb decisions. If I were Stark, Barnes would be breathing through a plastic tube. If at all >:(

Oh, and I loved L.O.V.E.D. this Spiderman. Can't wait for his solo movies.

P.s. And Black Panther was just as badass as I expected.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2016, 08:07:22 PM by Nos482 »
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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2016, 03:06:23 AM »
Just saw it as well.  Didn't think Capt did anything really stupid other than not telling Tony.  Overall a very good movie.  Nice lite partial origin for Spidey and Black Panther.

There is a stinger after the full credits, if your bladder can hold out.  Better IMO than some of the most recent.  Nice Stan cameo.

The new Aunt May.  Whoa.
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Arcana

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2016, 07:45:58 PM »
No spoiler review:

The good:

Everything, mostly.  It is a solid action adventure movie.  The conflict between Stark and Rogers feels reasonable, and in fact amazingly in my opinion it is possible to actually see the story from both perspectives.  It *is* a Captain America movie and leans that way, but IMO Team Irom Man gets a legitimate fair shake here.

The action is great.  The opening action is great, and the big set piece near the end is *stellar*.  IMO, if The Avengers set the bar for superhero fight set piece, then Civil War raises that bar a lot.  In more ways than one.  The interplay between fighting characters and the way the fight evolved were interesting, and the cinematography allowed you to see the fights in a way that was enjoyable.  No ridiculous shaky cam, no silly closeups or blocked shots.  Things seemed to be framed just right most of the time.

Pacing was good.  At no time did I find myself wondering why they were doing what they were doing or why they were taking so long to move on.  And it is a two and a half hour movie.

Character balance was reasonable given how many of them there were.  No one felt like they were there just to be there.  Everyone had an organic reason to be there.

All the returning characters were good, but special mention to the movie adding layers to Scarlett Witch and Vision, doing a bang-up job of introducing us to the new Spiderman and Black Panther.  Those two feel to me like they have real depth to their personalities, like I already "know" them.  And that's amazing given how many characters are fighting for time in this movie.

Best line in the movie for me:  "Let them try."  Because of who says it, and the context, I actually got a small chill.

The movie works as a really good sequel to both Age of Ultron and Winter Soldier.  And that's not easy.


The Bad:

Honestly, not much.  Blaming "the Avengers" for New York and Washington was iffy to me.  Sokovia was the Avengers trying to stop an actual extinction level event: they saved potentially billions of lives but it was Stark's fault that Ultron even existed, so you can make a case there.  But if the Avengers listened to "oversight" they would have let the World Council nuke New York and *everyone* would have died.  The Avengers were even less to blame for the events of The Winter Soldier insofar as the World Council got duped into making and almost using weapons of mass destruction worldwide and "the Avengers" were not really involved per se.  Cap could have made a stronger case that the first two were not examples of why the Avengers need oversight but rather just how badly oversight itself has gone wrong in his world.

The "main villain" was relatively weak.  But I think that the supposed main villain was really just the instigator, and the real adversaries were Rogers and Stark, so this is maybe a necessary evil.


The Ugly:

Nothing stands as truly ugly in this movie, IMO.


Bottom line:

The biggest takeaway is that where Civil War succeeds and BvS fails is that Marvel has been (relatively) patient and built up to these big conflicts.  We care about what happens in Civil War because we know the characters and care about them, and the fight isn't just a hollow effects piece.  The fight is a proxy for the battle between philosophies between Rogers and Stark.  They are fighting *for* something - both of them.  They don't just all hug it out when it is over: the fight is about something, and while they don't all end up killing each other (spoiler?) neither does the reason for them to fight just magically evaporate either.  Each character is there for a reason, whether it is philosophy, or loyalty, or responsibility.  The fight is a culmination of all these characters finding their own path to that moment.  In both BvS and in Civil War there is some "trickery" involved in the big fight but that trickery seems cheap and forced in BvS, and it seems organic and logical in Civil War (at least in my opinion).  Luthor creates an artificial fight in BvS.  The villain is only the match that lights the flame in Civil War, but the fight had been building long before he got there.


Overall: 9.5 out of 10.

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2016, 05:20:46 AM »
My opinion:  A VASTLY better Avengers movie than Ulton.  Really a terrific movie overall.  A huge cast and nobody is wasted, everybody is significant in some way (well, maybe Martin Freeman who is just there to tease(?) his role in the Black Panther film ??? and is otherwise totally insignificant).  Really an impressive job and the last act nicely brings it down to the core issue.  This is a Captain America film, but like the best Cap stories of the Lee/Kirby era, it is Cap set in the world of the Avengers and SHIELD.  Story is tight, complex and interesting.

RDJ's Tony Stark continues to be the biggest best character in the Marvel Cinematic Universe (that he launched) and continues to draw out the best in all the characters around him -- and his role as antagonist (to the degree that he is) is wonderfully set against Cap and Co.  Everybody's performance was terrific.

I knew Spider-man was in this, but hadn't gotten the word (until my friend told me) that Sony has essentially outsourced their Spider-man films to Marvel Studios going forward (the smartest corporate decision in move industry history).  THAT is absolutely Spider-man and I am so incredibly hyped to see the next film.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2016, 05:09:13 PM »
My opinion:  A VASTLY better Avengers movie than Ulton.  Really a terrific movie overall.  A huge cast and nobody is wasted, everybody is significant in some way (well, maybe Martin Freeman who is just there to tease(?) his role in the Black Panther film ??? and is otherwise totally insignificant).  Really an impressive job and the last act nicely brings it down to the core issue.  This is a Captain America film, but like the best Cap stories of the Lee/Kirby era, it is Cap set in the world of the Avengers and SHIELD.  Story is tight, complex and interesting.

RDJ's Tony Stark continues to be the biggest best character in the Marvel Cinematic Universe (that he launched) and continues to draw out the best in all the characters around him -- and his role as antagonist (to the degree that he is) is wonderfully set against Cap and Co.  Everybody's performance was terrific.

I knew Spider-man was in this, but hadn't gotten the word (until my friend told me) that Sony has essentially outsourced their Spider-man films to Marvel Studios going forward (the smartest corporate decision in move industry history).  THAT is absolutely Spider-man and I am so incredibly hyped to see the next film.

Now Marvel needs to get the FF back and make a Marvel FF film. Would be heads above anything done so far and the recent travesty.

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2016, 06:30:46 PM »
Pacing was good.  At no time did I find myself wondering why they were doing what they were doing or why they were taking so long to move on.  And it is a two and a half hour movie.

To me this was the most impressive part of the movie. Even from the trailers and announcements of Black Panther and Spiderman being introduced, without knowing the full story, it was obvious there would be a LOT happening in it, seemingly too much, which is a big part of why BvS did not work. Actually watching the movie, there was even MORE happening than I expected, we got two characters introduced WELL, development of existing characters that had to be somewhat rushed in Age of Ultron (Vision and Scarlet Witch), some backstory for Bucky that was sorely needed, villains introduced, conflict, merging of movies that had not been brought into the Avengers fold yet, and so much more. And it never once felt rushed to me. I was frequently on the edge of my seat, but never lost, and that is something that many movies have failed on recently.

The one problem with cramming so much into the movie was:

Blaming "the Avengers" for New York and Washington was iffy to me.  Sokovia was the Avengers trying to stop an actual extinction level event: they saved potentially billions of lives but it was Stark's fault that Ultron even existed, so you can make a case there.  But if the Avengers listened to "oversight" they would have let the World Council nuke New York and *everyone* would have died.  The Avengers were even less to blame for the events of The Winter Soldier insofar as the World Council got duped into making and almost using weapons of mass destruction worldwide and "the Avengers" were not really involved per se.  Cap could have made a stronger case that the first two were not examples of why the Avengers need oversight but rather just how badly oversight itself has gone wrong in his world.

I felt like a lot of points on both side of this argument could have been made, but were glossed over for the sake of time and keeping up the humor and action.

The Battle of New York was not CAUSED by the Avengers necessarily (a point could be made that Thor did take responsibility for Loki's actions in the Avengers movie, and that Odin did push Loki to become the person he was), but it could also be said that if the Avengers had not spent so much time fighting each other at the start of that movie and handled Loki properly instead that a lot of, or even all of, the damage may never have happened in the first place. Loki kept taunting them, saying he wanted to be their prisoner, and they fell into it easily. Now, so did Shield, but with Fury in the wind and Shield mostly underground it is easier to blame the Avengers, a very open and public face. Knowing Stark and Rogers, I am willing to bet they blame themselves for a lot of what happened.

The events of Washington, rise of Hydra, I totally agree. The Avengers were not involved (though three now members were, so I guess I can see why it would be lumped in) but could not, in any way, be blamed for it other than some snide "In the heat of battle you should have aimed the wreckage of the flying helicarrier better before you blew it up" kind of thing.

I was more upset with the hate for the opening fight of the movie...which I will spoiler tag.
Spoiler for Hidden:
Scarlet Witch contains a man, who is a former agent of Shield, current or former agent of Hydra, who suicide bombs in the middle of a crowded marketplace. That explosion would have killed dozens, including herself and Cap. She managed to temporarily contain the blast, and clearly tried to send it somewhere to let it go, but the power of the bomb obviously was too much for her to hold for long. How is she to blame for any of this, why isnt Crossbones, or any other of the bad guys related to these events, even mentioned?

I loved the new Spidey, every moment of him as both Peter and Spiderman, and I cannot wait to see more. I also felt that they nailed Black Panther, though
Spoiler for Hidden:
seeing Wikandans doing interviews on the news and wearing suits was strange.

I would change one thing with the order of the movie though, I feel like it would have made more sense if:
Spoiler for Hidden:
Stark found out closer to the start of the movie about Bucky killing his parents, and the only one that knew he found out was Cap. As it stands it felt strange that they went from friends, to major conflict separating them, to friends again for a few seconds, to even worse conflict separating them. Instead have that be the motivation for Stark drawing the line, something most of the other Avengers don't know, give him reason to hunt Bucky from the start instead of "he probably bombed the UN", and I think the conflicts would have felt a lot smoother.

RDJ has been talking a lot lately about doing another Iron Man movie, and from what I remember the only reason they stopped with 3 is because he didnt want to continue except in crossovers, so that is pretty exciting.

Arcana

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2016, 07:14:42 PM »
I was more upset with the hate for the opening fight of the movie...which I will spoiler tag.
Spoiler for Hidden:
Scarlet Witch contains a man, who is a former agent of Shield, current or former agent of Hydra, who suicide bombs in the middle of a crowded marketplace. That explosion would have killed dozens, including herself and Cap. She managed to temporarily contain the blast, and clearly tried to send it somewhere to let it go, but the power of the bomb obviously was too much for her to hold for long. How is she to blame for any of this, why isnt Crossbones, or any other of the bad guys related to these events, even mentioned?

That was irrational, but it was the normal kind of irrational that actually happens in the world, IMO.  People need a villain to point to, and often the target of that blame is not the most logical, but the most convenient.

Quote
I would change one thing with the order of the movie though, I feel like it would have made more sense if:
Spoiler for Hidden:
Stark found out closer to the start of the movie about Bucky killing his parents, and the only one that knew he found out was Cap. As it stands it felt strange that they went from friends, to major conflict separating them, to friends again for a few seconds, to even worse conflict separating them. Instead have that be the motivation for Stark drawing the line, something most of the other Avengers don't know, give him reason to hunt Bucky from the start instead of "he probably bombed the UN", and I think the conflicts would have felt a lot smoother.

I have a thought about that.  A very long thought actually.  Long enough that I need to think about it and better compose it in another post.  Short version: I think its a little clumsy at first, but the more I think about it the more I think there's a real reason why this was necessary to get a specific point across: a really important one.

Arcana

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2016, 09:25:42 PM »
I would change one thing with the order of the movie though, I feel like it would have made more sense if:
Spoiler for Hidden:
Stark found out closer to the start of the movie about Bucky killing his parents, and the only one that knew he found out was Cap. As it stands it felt strange that they went from friends, to major conflict separating them, to friends again for a few seconds, to even worse conflict separating them. Instead have that be the motivation for Stark drawing the line, something most of the other Avengers don't know, give him reason to hunt Bucky from the start instead of "he probably bombed the UN", and I think the conflicts would have felt a lot smoother.

So here's my thought, in the most spoiler-free version I can produce.

We think of "Team Iron Man" and "Team Cap" as representing two sides of a specific issue, specifically oversight.  Stark agrees to sign on to the Sokovia Accords which mandate that a special UN committee would have jurisdiction over deciding if and when the Avengers would be allowed to act.  Rogers doesn't.  So Team Tony is in favor of oversight and Team Rogers is not in favor.  But I think there's a different duality going on besides this one.  If Thanos were to show up and threaten to destroy the Earth, how many people think Tony and Rhodes and the Vision would sit at home and wait for a committee to authorize them to save the world?  Yeah, me neither.  I think if the stakes were high enough and the threat big enough *all* of the Avengers would act, and I think they all know that.  I think even Ross knows that.  So why don't they all sign?

Tony signs for a lot of complex reasons having to do with where he is in his life at this moment in time, but I think one reason he signs is because he knows the Accords are a compromise, and in a real emergency if he had to he would violate them.  He signs knowing he would act anyway if he felt it necessary.  And that's something Rogers cannot do.  Tony can sign with a clear conscience (as clear as his conscience ever gets) because he thinks signing is a means to an end.  It is just a squiggle on a page.  Rogers cannot sign because he *knows* he doesn't believe in the Accords.  He knows he will break them if he thinks it is necessary.  And because he knows he will break them, he can't sign.

Team Tony isn't just about oversight.  Team Tony believes you have to do what is necessary.  Think about who is on Team Tony (no secret given the marketing).  Stark, obviously.  Rhodes - Tony's friend but also a soldier.  The Vision.  Romanov.  I think it is obvious that all these people can be safely characterized as being people who will do what is necessary when they feel it is necessary.  They have situational morality.  It is not a big extrapolation to see the Vision, an artificial intelligence, as having a similar governing principle: if it needs to be done, the Vision will do it.  That's just logical.

Team Cap is anchored by Steve Rogers.  He will do what is necessary but he's a man of principle.  He doesn't like to compromise for the short term expediency.  He tries to act towards higher principles, even if they have short-term negatives.  He believes what's right is always right.  He doesn't believe in necessary evils.  Even as a soldier he chafes at doing the wrong thing for the right reasons.  And so he can't sign the Accords because he believes they are wrong, and he can't even *pretend* to go along.

The two sides aren't just "oversight" vs "freedom."  It is also "practical reality" vs "principle."  And the ending actually emphasizes this second layer of Team Cap and Team Iron Man.  At the end of the movie, was Tony acting consistent with "team oversight"?  No.  He *was* acting entirely consistent with "team do what's necessary" - even, emotional that he was, at the *very* end.  All along, Tony was a man driven by his emotions, his guilt, his belief that he had a responsibility he didn't really want but couldn't avoid because he had the power to address.

Although the ending is a little clumsy, it might have been unavoidably clumsy given time and narrative constraints.  I think the ending is meant to make you think more about what these guys really stand for.  The Sokovia Accords and the oversight issue were important, but I think they were just a small component of the larger schism between Tony and Steve.  Tony is someone trying to navigate a complicated and ugly world through both daring and compromise, and he is ultimately driven by guilt.  Steve is someone trying to navigate a complicated and ugly world by reframing it with his own moral compass, making the complicated world simpler, so he can try to always do the right thing for the right reasons.  That's what the ending is all about.  And I think the last scene with Tony is meant to show that ultimately, Tony knows this too.

Now, this should all sound familiar.  The billionaire haunted by guilt and driven to always do what is necessary?  The paragon of virtue that always tries to stand for the right thing?  That duality is actually the modern Batman/Superman relationship (at least, prior to the last few DC reboots).  Batman and Superman are often portrayed as not friends, but as opposite philosophies that respect each other.  Batman thinks of Superman as a naive "boy scout" but also as something the world needs, and in particular the super powered world needs: an example to look up to.  Superman doesn't always get the job done the way Batman would like, but he serves a greater purpose Batman never could.  He makes others want to live up to his ideal.  Batman doesn't want followers and pretenders, because he knows deep down that his moral relativism would only create monsters.  Superman, by comparison, often sees Batman as too violent, too extreme, too willing to bend or break the rules.  But he also sees Batman as incorruptible in his own way, and in many versions of their story Batman is the only person Superman trusts with Kryptonite.  He doesn't just trust Batman to possess it, he also trusts Batman to be one of the few people who would actually use it if he felt it necessary.  Superman doesn't just trust Batman with his life, he trusts Batman with his death.

Somehow, perhaps without meaning to, Marvel has managed to hijack one of the best features of two of their most prominent characters.  Where BvS fails most is that the fight is between two strangers: they don't know each other, they have no history, the fight isn't about anything.  In The Dark Knight Returns the fight is about something: it is about a many-layered relationship they have had over the decades.  It is about the different philosophies they represent, the current places they find themselves in, the respectful but adversarial relationship they have often had.  It is personal in a lot of ways.  The fight between Rogers and Stark is the same: it is about something: it is about a lot of things.  The conflict between Rogers and Stark in Civil War evolves their complicated relationship, one of respect, anger, jealousy, and guilt.  They aren't friends.  They are brothers.  And at the end, they fight like brothers.  They aren't the leaders of Team Cap and Team Iron Man anymore.  The conflict between them, and what happens afterward, is personal.  It is what happens between brothers.

It takes a long time narratively to get here.  In a sense, we've been building to this moment from the very first Iron Man and Captain America movies.  I think it is important that you have these dueling personalities and philosophies, that your central characters have both a reason to stay together and yet a reason for conflict.  The Superman/Batman relationship wasn't an accident: it was the best way to convey something that is very hard to convey: respect.  If two people really like and agree with each other, it is hard to tell if they are cooperating because they respect each other, just happen to always agree, or just because one of them is willing to go along with the other.  But when the characters aren't alike, don't always agree, actively disagree, don't even especially like each other and yet work together that can very strongly convey the sense that they do so because they respect each other.  They respect each others' character, judgment, and perspective.  And when the characters respect each other, it makes it easier for us to respect them, particularly when it is earned.  Friendship is easy to portray.  Respect is much harder, but also more rewarding.  Marvel has gotten Tony and Steve to the point where we can believe they respect each other, for reasons that are earned.  That's something Warner/DC will have a much harder time getting to, because they rushed the relationship between the two characters that need to respect each other the most in their narrative.  It is something I don't even think they realize the lost potential they threw away by trying to catch up with Marvel.

That's what I think the ending is all about.  When you think about plot, and narrative, and structure, and pacing, and cinematic principles, the ending can seem abrupt and disjointed.  But if I ask you this question: where is Cap now, in terms of his character?  Where is Tony, in terms of his character?  Not their physical locations, but their characters.  And what is their relationship now?  I think most people have answers to those questions that I don't think they would have had if not for the final ending sequence.  And I think that's more important in the end.  Heading into Infinity War, and perhaps more importantly beyond it, setting this up was very important, and could pay off huge dividends in the stories to come.

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2016, 01:07:38 AM »

I really have nothing to add to that.  :)
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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2016, 01:16:45 AM »
The only sub plot that really felt forced was the
Spoiler for Hidden:
Steve/Sharon relationship.
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Arcana

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2016, 02:27:40 AM »
The only sub plot that really felt forced was the
Spoiler for Hidden:
Steve/Sharon relationship.

I didn't think it felt forced, but a lot of my friends who saw the movie thought it came out of nowhere.  I think it was a continuation of something hinted at in Winter Soldier, but I would agree that there were not enough dots between there and here to make it obvious.  In a movie that was surprising for how much narrative they managed to squeeze onto the screen for so many different characters, this is one of the few things that stands out as something that mostly happens "off screen."

I found this video on youtube that I think is interesting in the context of Civil War.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fpk1TE2_Gcc

The guys who make "Honest Trailers" get to see and react to the Russo brothers themselves reacting to the Honest Trailer for Winter Soldier.  What I find most interesting is the admission by the Russos that when they and the writers worked on the scripts for Winter Soldier and Civil War that they actually explicitly talked about "Honest Trailer-proofing" the movie.  They said when they came across something that they thought Honest Trailers might be able to make fun of, they would actually try to fix it: Joe Russo said he would often say "I'm not going to let Honest Trailers f*ing beat us up over this lapse in logic" while working on the script.  And while nothing is perfect and different people can disagree over what makes sense and what doesn't, I think Winter Soldier and Civil War do show evidence that they did try to make both movies "Honest Trailers-proof."  Yes its a comic book movie and yes it is a big budget action popcorn movie, but it still shows signs that the writers and directors cared about making a movie that made sense.

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2016, 05:10:41 AM »
Already saw that already.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2016, 10:21:20 AM »
Cumberbatch is part of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, so of course Freeman had to show up there, too...

Loved the part when the two sides regroup and Spidey swings in from a webline that must have been attached to the invisible helicopter.

I mean, there were a lot of great things about the movie, but almost everything else has been covered here in short novel form.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2016, 01:35:31 PM »
A quick question without spoilers - if possible.

When Spidey shows up, is there any explanation in the film about how he ended up on Team Tony or where he has been the last few films?

Or is he like a new hero to the world and this is his first time in public?

hurple

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2016, 02:03:50 PM »
Character balance was reasonable given how many of them there were.  No one felt like they were there just to be there.  Everyone had an organic reason to be there.


I kinda disagree here.  With Power Man, Jessica Jones, Daredevil, Hulk, Thor, and all the inhumans running around, Stark going and pulling in *just* Spiderman smacks of "let's throw this character in for no reason other than to introduce him" to me.

But, other than that, this film is nearly note perfect.  This film has made BvS it's bitch.  BvS is now bent over, holding its ankles and begging for this movie to be gentle with it.

I can see why DC was so desperate to have BvS released earlier in the season.  If it had tried to *follow* this it would have done Ishtar-level box office.

 :P
 

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2016, 03:38:32 PM »
A quick question without spoilers - if possible.

When Spidey shows up, is there any explanation in the film about how he ended up on Team Tony or where he has been the last few films?

Or is he like a new hero to the world and this is his first time in public?

the latter...
he's had his powers for 6 months and has been pretty secretive about it.  No flashy rescues and not in the newspapers, just stopping muggings and such.  There's a 5-10 second youtube video that shows him rescuing someone.  Tony tracks him down and asks for his help.

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doc7924

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2016, 05:28:45 PM »
the latter...
he's had his powers for 6 months and has been pretty secretive about it.  No flashy rescues and not in the newspapers, just stopping muggings and such.  There's a 5-10 second youtube video that shows him rescuing someone.  Tony tracks him down and asks for his help.

e-

Cool.

I really liked the first three Spidey films, yes even the 'we didn't rip off Superman 3' third one.

The new ones - I thought the first one was ok, but the second one was horrible.

Hopefully with Marvel working on the Sony Soidey films, we will get good ones again.

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2016, 06:25:32 PM »
I kinda disagree here.  With Power Man, Jessica Jones, Daredevil, Hulk, Thor, and all the inhumans running around, Stark going and pulling in *just* Spiderman smacks of "let's throw this character in for no reason other than to introduce him" to me.

I don't think it does for me, because bringing in Spiderman is not about locating firepower.  For me it is about trust.  If he approaches Jessica Jones, what would make him think she would be on *his* side?  The side of the Accords?  Nope.  Luke Cage he might not even know about because he has a way lower profile, but again: if anything Luke Cage is far more likely to be on Team Cap.  Jones is out in public but not a team player at all.  Cage is not in public at all and would want to keep it that way.  The only one of those that Stark can find (he doesn't appear to know where the Hulk is and can't easily call Thor) is Daredevil, and while Matt Murdock might be a Team Iron Man player, quite frankly he's not their league.

But it is really about trust.  Tony didn't just spin up his Marvel Universe database looking for team mates.  Its pretty obvious that he approaches Peter because (no spoilers) he thinks Peter is someone he can trust.  Tony knows how compelling Rogers is: how Rogers just naturally attracts people who want to follow him.  He inspires loyalty.  He needs people he can trust to stay on his side.  And its obvious in Civil War that he thinks he can trust Parker for various reasons.  And even so, its obvious that Tony "inoculated" Peter against Rogers (it makes sense to people who watched the movie already).

The movies don't really acknowledge the TV series, but even if they did the Inhumans are currently seen as a world threat.  Tony's not going to start randomly approaching the ones he might know about to see who might be willing to help.  He simply doesn't have the time.  He already invested time in Parker, so that's who he approaches.

One other thing.  Tony goes to the fight trying to *stop* Rogers and whoever might be helping him.  He honestly isn't trying to kill or seriously injure anyone.  Tony has to trust whoever he brings not just to fight on his side, but to do so responsibly under his parameters.  He needs to trust that not only will they fight, but they won't get out of hand.  Who can he get at all on short notice that he can trust to do that?  Even Peter was something of a reach for Tony.

That's why I think Spiderman works in this movie in my opinion.  He's not just there to add another super powered body.  He's there because he's part of Tony's narrative.  He's there because you could plug any super powered body on Team Tony, but there aren't many people in the Marvel Universe you can plug into the specific role Peter Parker plays in Tony's story.

Last thing: within the movie itself, there's an obvious reason why Tony might go to see Peter, having to do with the guilt he feels over what he finds out earlier in the film.  But it is strongly implied that Tony's been watching Peter for a while now, since long before the start of the movie.  And I think you can draw a line from Tony and Peter, back to Iron Man 3 and Tony and Harley (the kid).  Tony has daddy issues, obviously.  And amazingly there aren't any little Starks running around.  I think you can make the case that his interactions with Harley in Iron Man 3 caused Tony to start thinking about wanting to be more of a mentor and father figure to someone else.  I think the grand gesture Tony makes at the beginning of the movie is part of that: wanting to help younger people in general.  I think Peter is an expression of that same need, and I think that will carry through to the Homecoming movie.

Given all of that, I don't think its odd to me that he gets Peter and only Peter.  In fact, the more I think about it the more I believe Peter is the *only* person Tony could reach out to.

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2016, 08:56:04 PM »

Given all of that, I don't think its odd to me that he gets Peter and only Peter.  In fact, the more I think about it the more I believe Peter is the *only* person Tony could reach out to.

Didn't want to quote all of that because it is so long. 

That's all perfectly acceptable and a very well thought out explanation, and it does make sense.  However, I would replace every point where you use the word "trust" with "manipulate."

And, don't get me wrong, I loved Spider-Man in the film, and am really sold on wanting to see the next Spider-Man movie, but I still think adding him smacks a bit of stunt-casting.

But, Wonder Woman in BvS is even worse...

However, every bit of conflict in Civil War could have easily been avoided if everybody had sat down and talked it through instead of deciding to have a man-part measuring contest.  So, chalk that 2 1/2 up to macho-posturing musclehead lunkheadiness.


 :o


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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2016, 09:26:51 PM »
That's all perfectly acceptable and a very well thought out explanation, and it does make sense.  However, I would replace every point where you use the word "trust" with "manipulate."

Conceded.  But it is Tony Stark, and Tony's a schemer.  I think he really does care for Peter, and he does want to help and protect him, but I think with Tony "guidance" and "manipulate into doing the right thing" are basically synonymous in his mind.


Quote
However, every bit of conflict in Civil War could have easily been avoided if everybody had sat down and talked it through instead of deciding to have a man-part measuring contest.  So, chalk that 2 1/2 up to macho-posturing musclehead lunkheadiness.

A lot of people have said variations on that, but I don't agree.  Sure, its a superhero movie, and it is an action movie, so of course things get turned up to eleven.  But the movie did show an honest attempt by Tony and Steve to talk it out.  They even come this close ---><--- before it all falls apart.  But at the end Steve felt that there was an exigent emergency that simply couldn't wait, and to their credit the fight isn't just random fighting: no one there has as their sole purpose fighting for the sake of fighting.  I liked what one reviewer mentioned in particular: Black Panther isn't there for any of the Team Cap vs Team Iron nonsense.  He is laser focused on one thing, and everything he does is to do that one thing.  I would add that Cap is there to do one thing, and all his energy is devoted to doing that one thing.  Tony is there to do one thing, and all his energy is devoted to doing that one thing.  And none of those things is actually engaging in a protracted fight.  None of them is trying to "win" anything.  The fighting happens because what each person is trying to do runs counter to what the others are trying to do.  But none of them are trying to engage in any more fighting than is necessary.

That's something else I find interesting about Civil War.  Almost everyone (everyone with a positive review of the movie, which is about 95% of everyone) agrees the fighting, particularly the climactic set piece battle, is some of the best superhero action ever put to screen.  And yet the fighting isn't even the purpose to the entire scene.  *None* of them is fighting just to fight.  All of them are actually trying to do something the narrative has brought them to, and the fighting is just what they have to do to get someone else out of their way.  It is fighting that is part of the story, not fighting that is just a break from the story.

T'Challa had no reason to trust Rogers, and so he could not possibly have been talked down in the heat of battle.  Steve couldn't be talked down because he felt he had to act.  Tony equally believed that what Rogers was doing threatened the ability for the Avengers to act at all.  The movie shows the parties legitimately discussing all sides of the issue, but the differences between them were just intractable, and then events happened too quickly for them to be resolved through compromise.

And yet it almost did come down to two men who respect each other agreeing to compromise.  So in my opinion, I think the movie does show that the fighting wasn't just about posturing, and the heroes didn't resort to fighting first.  It was the last resort of most everyone involved, with perhaps one understandable exception.

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2016, 01:38:10 AM »
I got the sense that Stark was interested in Spidey because of Science.  The superheroic feats may have initially put Spidey on Stark's radar, but the science behind the webbing made him more than just another masked daredevil with inhuman strength.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2016, 01:55:06 AM »
I got the sense that Stark was interested in Spidey because of Science.  The superheroic feats may have initially put Spidey on Stark's radar, but the science behind the webbing made him more than just another masked daredevil with inhuman strength.

No question.  The science made Peter someone like him, and therefore someone Tony might be able to relate to.  You also have to wonder if Peter being an orphan has something to do with it as well.

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2016, 02:12:17 PM »

A lot of people have said variations on that, but I don't agree.  Sure, its a superhero movie, and it is an action movie, so of course things get turned up to eleven.  But the movie did show an honest attempt by Tony and Steve to talk it out.  They even come this close ---><--- before it all falls apart.  But at the end Steve felt that there was an exigent emergency that simply couldn't wait, and to their credit the fight isn't just random fighting: no one there has as their sole purpose fighting for the sake of fighting. 

Actually, I think the talking it out stuff stopped as soon as the gov't issued "shoot on sight" and "shoot to kill" orders on Bucky, without even attempting to arrest him instead.

If they had agreed to simply arrest him, take him into custody, then everything could have been avoided.

So, again, it's an argument in favor of Captain America's viewpoint.  In fact, as pointed out New York was almost nuked by the "world council" and SHIELD was taken over by Hydra, so neither of those were the fault of the Avengers, and in fact, they saved (potentially) millions of lives in those situations.  It was the "powers that be" that was the problem there. 

But, really, all that shows is that Steve Rogers is not a very good negotiator that none of that was ever mentioned.   ;D


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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2016, 03:02:13 PM »
The big draw in the comics was Steve and Tony were such close, good friends it was tough to see them fighting each other.

But in the movies I never really got the feeling they were the best of buddies like in the books.

Maybe its because we only saw them on screen together twice and each time they either argued for punched each other.

Of course could be a lot of adventures they have we just don't see in-between the films.

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2016, 05:41:43 PM »
Yet the impetus for all the fighting in the comics and the extremes it got taken to was way worse than the movie.  Except, perhaps, in that it more clearly made Tony (and, was it... Reed Richards, Namor, and Doctor Strange?) out to be the villain.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2016, 06:32:06 PM »
If they had agreed to simply arrest him, take him into custody, then everything could have been avoided.

Well yes and no.  "They" was Ross and the government.  Tony had nothing to do with that.  So no amount of talking between Tony and Steve could have prevented that.  And even besides that, the ultimate trigger that broke things down was Steve discovering that Tony was
Spoiler for Hidden:
imprisoning Wanda because she refused to sign the Accords
which is a separate issue from Bucky.


Quote
So, again, it's an argument in favor of Captain America's viewpoint.  In fact, as pointed out New York was almost nuked by the "world council" and SHIELD was taken over by Hydra, so neither of those were the fault of the Avengers, and in fact, they saved (potentially) millions of lives in those situations.  It was the "powers that be" that was the problem there. 

But, really, all that shows is that Steve Rogers is not a very good negotiator that none of that was ever mentioned.   ;D

As I mentioned, I think both sides did not present the strongest possible argument for their sides, but I think the germ of both positions is there (and real people don't always come up with the best arguments on the spot in real life either).  I think the strongest argument for both sides comes down to this:

Team Cap: The Avengers are here to protect people, not just from foreign or alien threats, but all threats, and that has often included the people in power.  You say we are the powerful people that the world needs to be protected from, but the biggest threats have come from people possessing more mundane but no less dangerous power.  SHIELD experimenting with the Tesseract in secret.  The World Council ordering a nuclear strike on US soil out of fear.  HYDRA infiltrating the government to build flying assassination engines.  The Avengers exists specifically *because* we now live in a world where some threats can't be resolved by normal means.  Signing the Accords is basically saying we'll play along in the very system we're supposed to be a check against.  What if the next big threat is something the Sokovia committee misjudges?  What if it is something they miss entirely?  What if it is something they are actively trying to do themselves?

Team Iron Man: Governments make mistakes, and sometimes horrible ones, but they are far more accountable to the people than the Avengers are.  We can't protect people if they don't trust us and whether it is true or not is irrelevant: the SHIELD documents caused the people to distrust us, Sokovia caused people to distrust us, Ghana caused people to distrust us.  If the governments of the world turn against us, we won't just be fighting the next Ultron or Loki we'll be fighting the governments of the world as well.  What happens if the next big threat is something we miss *because* no one trusts us enough to tell us?  What if the governments of the world stop trying to regulate us and start straight up prosecuting us for war crimes.

And maybe you think you can do better, but do you think *everyone* can do better?  What about every other super powered being that wants to play Avengers.  How can you say they need oversight if you're unwilling to accept it for yourself?  Do you want people to follow your example of defying the government and just doing whatever they want?


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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2016, 08:44:31 PM »
Well yes and no.  "They" was Ross and the government.  Tony had nothing to do with that.  So no amount of talking between Tony and Steve could have prevented that.  And even besides that, the ultimate trigger that broke things down was Steve discovering that Tony was
Spoiler for Hidden:
imprisoning Wanda because she refused to sign the Accords
which is a separate issue from Bucky.

Never said between Stark and Rogers.  Rogers, in fact, could have used the "shoot on sight" and "shoot to kill" orders being given before they determined his actual guilt, in retrospect since he was shown to be not guilty, as proof of the correctness of his arguments against UN oversight.  Like I said, he's not much of a negotiator. 

But, then, it's just a movie, and as usual, shortcuts are taken to get to the major set-piece (in this case the fight at the airport) so if Captain America has to look like a muscle-headed goof for that to happen, so be it.



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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2016, 09:19:57 PM »
But, then, it's just a movie, and as usual, shortcuts are taken to get to the major set-piece (in this case the fight at the airport) so if Captain America has to look like a muscle-headed goof for that to happen, so be it.

Much is made (rightfully so) about Marvel expanding the genre: Winter Soldier is a spy-thriller, Avengers is an action adventure, Ant-Man is a heist movie.  If they want to take the long way everywhere, I guess they could.  We could have the legal police procedural Law and Order: Sokovia Accords deal with Cap challenging the legality of the arrest warrant for James Barnes.  C.S.I.V.I.S.I.O.N would be a forensic investigation drama dealing with the task of determining the identity of the bomber.  Den Sokovia Sorg would be a psychological drama dealing with the existential unfairness that life presents to people of conscience and the nature of brotherly love.

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2016, 03:54:12 PM »
Much is made (rightfully so) about Marvel expanding the genre: Winter Soldier is a spy-thriller, Avengers is an action adventure, Ant-Man is a heist movie.  If they want to take the long way everywhere, I guess they could.  We could have the legal police procedural Law and Order: Sokovia Accords deal with Cap challenging the legality of the arrest warrant for James Barnes.  C.S.I.V.I.S.I.O.N would be a forensic investigation drama dealing with the task of determining the identity of the bomber.  Den Sokovia Sorg would be a psychological drama dealing with the existential unfairness that life presents to people of conscience and the nature of brotherly love.

If any superhero media project should be a CSI-type procedural, it should be The Flash.  Which means Marvel will do it first and better.  Ha!


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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2016, 10:45:01 PM »
Sorry, was away for a few days and missed the replies.

So here's my thought, in the most spoiler-free version I can produce.

I agree with your entire post, and I want to point out how impressive it is that the movies are able to put so much thought and emotion into the characters considering they don't have the time to set it all up and explain it like it would have been in a show or the comics themselves. There has been some truly spectacular writing, acting, and directing here, pretty much across the board.

I did not mean to make it sound like the end was clumsy or rushed. I liked the end, I loved the whole movie, and it honestly may be my favorite in the series so far. I think that where the movie leaves us with where the characters are, how they have changed is exactly what should have happened.

It was just before the end that I had a problem with. The final action scene of the movie, the part that officially drove Steve and Tony away from each other just when it all seemed like it was about to work out. I'm afraid that any more detail than that and I am drifting into spoiler territory, so...

Spoiler for Hidden:
My problem is specifically about Tony finding out Bucky killed his parents and Steve knowing and hiding it from him. I think this is a great piece of character development for them all around, but I don't like it's placement in the movie. We see Tony realize that the team had been manipulated, that Bucky was innocent of the UN attack, rush off to help (by himself for...reasons? I'm guessing he didnt want to admit he was wrong to the people that did choose to follow him like Vision, who could have kept up and gotten there just as fast as he did, maybe faster.) We see Tony, Steve, and Bucky fight alongside each other and then with barely a couple minutes having passed Tony is jerked in the other direction and goes into a murderous rage that put Black Panther's to shame.

THIS felt rushed. It felt out of place and overall unnecessary. Like I said, I feel like Tony finding out about Bucky killing his parents should have happened closer to the start of the movie, maybe something Ross shows him in private because Tony balks on joining a manhunt for Bucky after the bombing when there isnt enough evidence, something like that. Then in the scene where Steve almost signs the Accords and stops when he learns about Wanda, once he realizes Steve isn't going to sign Tony confronts him to see if he knew and Steve has to tell him he did. BOOM, lines drawn, and while the original issue of the Accords is still a major motivation, the underlying hate from Tony and guilt from Steve would have been interesting to see in the big confrontation.

Also, the more I think about it, the less okay I am with what they did to
Spoiler for Hidden:
Zemo. I'm not a huge Zemo fan or anything, but there is some GOOD story there, like creating the Masters of Evil, which would have been a great thing to see after Infinity War, or just the idea that a Nazi scientist Cap went up against pre-ice had a son who is just as bad/worse than he was, has a lot of sway with Hydra and so on.

In the movie he ends up being just some guy from an already poor country who in the space of a couple years somehow find the resources to hire some big league assassins and manipulate multiple governments, then take over a hidden soviet base. The Zemo from the comics, sure, this is an average Thursday night for him because he is a genius with extensive training and near unlimited resources, but just some guy from a third world country?

Mostly I wish they had not named him Zemo, to leave the option open for another movie to use the character in the future. The number of good villains they have the rights to doesnt seem high enough to just throw away some of the bigger names.

Arcana

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2016, 12:53:05 AM »
Also, the more I think about it, the less okay I am with what they did to
Spoiler for Hidden:
Zemo. I'm not a huge Zemo fan or anything, but there is some GOOD story there, like creating the Masters of Evil, which would have been a great thing to see after Infinity War, or just the idea that a Nazi scientist Cap went up against pre-ice had a son who is just as bad/worse than he was, has a lot of sway with Hydra and so on.

In the movie he ends up being just some guy from an already poor country who in the space of a couple years somehow find the resources to hire some big league assassins and manipulate multiple governments, then take over a hidden soviet base. The Zemo from the comics, sure, this is an average Thursday night for him because he is a genius with extensive training and near unlimited resources, but just some guy from a third world country?

Mostly I wish they had not named him Zemo, to leave the option open for another movie to use the character in the future. The number of good villains they have the rights to doesnt seem high enough to just throw away some of the bigger names.

Can't reply without spoiler tag protection:

Spoiler for Hidden:
In the movie Zemo is said to be a former member of some Sokovian secret police agency.  I even think someone said "death squad."  He was already someone on par with the old Soviets running the Winter Soldier program and Hydra.  He didn't really do anything that a single person couldn't do.  First, he admitted spending a lot of time decrypting the leaked Hydra files that Romanov released at the end of Winter Soldier.  Those files probably clued him in to the fact that Howard Stark was assassinated by Hydra, as Zola implied in Captain America: The Winter Soldier.  Something probably suggested that the perpetrator was the Winter Soldier, but Zemo wanted proof.  He first tries to torture it out of the spy at the beginning of the film but when he convinces Zemo that he wouldn't break he decides to stage the bombing at the UN.  That also seems within his abilities.  He also replaces the psychologist assigned to interview the Winter Soldier so he can specifically ask him about the details of that 1991 mission.  Under command, Bucky probably told Zemo about the abandoned base which probably contained the original records of the Winter Soldier's various missions, which is all Zemo wanted.

Nothing he does appears to be outside the realm of a hardened spy with no compunctions about killing people to achieve his ends.

As to wasting the character, in the movie Zemo is specifically identified as Helmut Zemo, and Helmut Zemo was the second Baron Zemo in the comics.  While he does create the Masters of Evil his origin story in the comics is that he blames Captain America for his father's death and wants revenge.  That's actually the core of the Civil War iteration of Zemo.  The actual comic book version of Zemo is unlikely to ever have a place in the MCU given things like the fact that Zola is dead, so introducing him as this iteration seems reasonable to me.  Particularly as Zemo doesn't die, which means the door is open for him to return as a baddie down the road.

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2016, 08:41:46 AM »
Well this will need a spoiler tag.
Spoiler for Hidden:
The thing I've seen most reviewers have a problem with is the camera at the crash scene.  I believe that the location of the crash is set up ahead of time and the camera was put there to document the success of the mission.

One an adjacent point, why did Howard have super soldier like serum?  Or was that Kree fluid, early Tahiti drug?  Really doesn't matter since at the end of the day it was just a MacGuffin.

I also agree that Zemo didn't do anything that Black Widow couldn't do in terms of spycraft and psychological manipulation.
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hurple

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2016, 06:29:44 PM »
Well this will need a spoiler tag.
Spoiler for Hidden:
The thing I've seen most reviewers have a problem with is the camera at the crash scene.  I believe that the location of the crash is set up ahead of time and the camera was put there to document the success of the mission.

One an adjacent point, why did Howard have super soldier like serum?  Or was that Kree fluid, early Tahiti drug?  Really doesn't matter since at the end of the day it was just a MacGuffin.

I also agree that Zemo didn't do anything that Black Widow couldn't do in terms of spycraft and psychological manipulation.

I think the "villian" Zemo was just a MacGuffin himself.  It was all to lead up to the airport scene.  That was the money shot, and everything else was filler.

Good filler, mind you...

Very very good filler...

But, I am taking an educated guess here, that the screenwriter(s) were told they wanted:

  • A fight between all the Marvel movie heroes (+ Spider-Man but - Hulk and Thor (for some reason))
  • Intro Black Panther
  • Resolve the Bucky hanging threads
  • Split the Avengers into two camps

So, they wrote what we got.  A very good script with some pretty deft handling of the mandates such that very little feels forced or shoe-horned in.   A very impressive job all-around. 

Much better than DC's attempt.  And I hate to say that as a lifelong DC fan and not a Marvel fan.  But it is what it is.


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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2016, 06:34:21 PM »
Well this will need a spoiler tag.
Spoiler for Hidden:
The thing I've seen most reviewers have a problem with is the camera at the crash scene.  I believe that the location of the crash is set up ahead of time and the camera was put there to document the success of the mission.

One an adjacent point, why did Howard have super soldier like serum?  Or was that Kree fluid, early Tahiti drug?  Really doesn't matter since at the end of the day it was just a MacGuffin.

Spoiler for Hidden:
I agree about the camera, except it is also possible it is a drone intended to follow and document the Winter Soldier's mission.  I say that because if my memory is remembering correctly, the video contained more than one camera angle.

As to the super soldier serum, it has been established that lots of people were trying to recreate it, including Howard Stark, for decades.  It is entirely possible that the great irony of Howard Stark's death is that Captain America indirectly causes it when Stark gets close enough to a viable serum that Hydra decides it is worth stealing from him.  In the early memory scene Howard says he is going to Washington, maybe the trip was related to his serum work.  I suspect he was heading to the Triskelion with it.  The Triskelion was established in Ant-Man to be the headquarters of SHIELD by 1989.

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2016, 06:54:34 PM »
I think the "villian" Zemo was just a MacGuffin himself.  It was all to lead up to the airport scene.  That was the money shot, and everything else was filler.

Good filler, mind you...

Very very good filler...

But, I am taking an educated guess here, that the screenwriter(s) were told they wanted:

  • A fight between all the Marvel movie heroes (+ Spider-Man but - Hulk and Thor (for some reason))
  • Intro Black Panther
  • Resolve the Bucky hanging threads
  • Split the Avengers into two camps

So, they wrote what we got.  A very good script with some pretty deft handling of the mandates such that very little feels forced or shoe-horned in.   A very impressive job all-around. 

Much better than DC's attempt.  And I hate to say that as a lifelong DC fan and not a Marvel fan.  But it is what it is.

In interviews the Russos have stated that they worked directly with the screenwriters (Chris Markus and Stephen McFeely) to produce the story in a very collaborative way.  They had previously worked together on The Winter Soldier in a similar fashion.  Also, my understanding is that the movie we saw went through a lot of radical variations before settling on the final one, many of which the Russos said didn't work for them at all.  But from what I've read they did not have any specific editorial mandates regarding most of what we got on screen.  It seems to have been the Russos' idea themselves to run with the idea of the Civil War concept and it was they that pitched it to Marvel not vice versa.  It seems to have also been their idea to integrate Spiderman into the movie: they claim that they worked him into a version of the script before they knew the rights to the character were even going to be available as a long shot.  I suspect the primary editorial mandate to the Russos was to work in Black Panther.

Interestingly, the Russos have stated in interviews that the inspiration for them to consider the Civil War concept was when they heard that Warner was going to be basing their next movie on the Batman vs Superman fight from TDKR.  That's what made them think that the logical progression of the Captain America story was to have him face off against other superheroes, and they wanted to portray a superhero on superhero fight in the MCU.  From there, the idea grew organically that Cap, the guy who started off telling Tony that they were soldiers and should follow orders was disillusioned by the events of the Avengers and Winter Soldier into thinking that blindly following orders was wrong, and Tony the radical maverick that refused to share his technology with the government because he distrusted them was now traumatized into believing that no one person should bear the power and responsibilities the Avengers took upon themselves.  They've basically switched roles and felt strongly enough about it to fight over it.  That was sort of the core of the movie they tried to story around, according to them.

I don't see Zemo as a MacGuffin.  Zemo has a firm backstory, a comprehensible motive, he takes agency in the story, and he is critical to the ending of the movie *both* for Cap and Tony, and for Black Panther as well.  And they didn't need him to get to the Airport scene: his story actually orbits around and passes through the main story until the ending of the movie.  He's not there to simply set off the big fight and then be discarded.

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2016, 09:02:00 PM »
but - Hulk and Thor (for some reason)
That one's easy to explain.

From a story standpoint, Thor's got enough to deal with back home right now.  And Banner just wants to hide for a while.  (Though, I believe I've heard some rumblings that Hulk might show up in Ragnarok.)

From a writing view, it's pretty easy to imagine Thor and Hulk ending up on the same side of the argument presented in Civil War.  Thor's obvious.  He's going to go where he wants when he wants.  He's a god.  Good luck trying to control him.  And there's no way Banner's going to allow the government to have any sort of authority to use the Hulk as a weapon.  You place Thor and Hulk on the same side of that argument, and suddenly the movie's over in about 5 minutes.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2016, 09:18:21 PM »
That one's easy to explain.

From a story standpoint, Thor's got enough to deal with back home right now.  And Banner just wants to hide for a while.  (Though, I believe I've heard some rumblings that Hulk might show up in Ragnarok.)

From a writing view, it's pretty easy to imagine Thor and Hulk ending up on the same side of the argument presented in Civil War.  Thor's obvious.  He's going to go where he wants when he wants.  He's a god.  Good luck trying to control him.  And there's no way Banner's going to allow the government to have any sort of authority to use the Hulk as a weapon.  You place Thor and Hulk on the same side of that argument, and suddenly the movie's over in about 5 minutes.

Agreed.  My absolute biggest complaint about the film (other than the odd camera thing for the Winter Soldier segment commented on above) is how they *literally* bring in Ant-Man, Spider-Man, Hawkeye, etc, JUST for the airport fight.  I mean they even have Ant-Man brought to the site in a freakin' minivan.  It's a bit obvious of a "we want everyone to fight" moment. 

But, they do justify it, mostly, in a storyline sense, so it'a a minor quibble. 

It just *feels* like a classic "we want this scene so build the movie around it"

It's a real testament to the screenwriters and filmmakers that they pulled it off.  Those guys just guaranteed themselves a long career in Hollywood.


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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2016, 12:27:14 AM »
It's a real testament to the screenwriters and filmmakers that they pulled it off.  Those guys just guaranteed themselves a long career in Hollywood.

Well, if nothing else they will be busy until 2019, since they were handed Infinity War Part One and Two (although they've said they are renaming them because they aren't really a two part movie: almost everyone pretty much expects them now to be called Avengers: Infinity Gauntlet and Avengers: Infinity War or something similar).

Unlike Joss Whedon who admitted to extreme exhaustion after the first Avengers movie and admitted that played a role in some of the mistakes in Age of Ultron, the Russo brothers seem pretty jazzed in general about working on these films and still seem to be excited to be working on Infinity War.  I think that matters a great deal to their success so far.

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #38 on: May 17, 2016, 12:37:46 AM »
That one's easy to explain.

From a story standpoint, Thor's got enough to deal with back home right now.  And Banner just wants to hide for a while.  (Though, I believe I've heard some rumblings that Hulk might show up in Ragnarok.)

From a writing view, it's pretty easy to imagine Thor and Hulk ending up on the same side of the argument presented in Civil War.  Thor's obvious.  He's going to go where he wants when he wants.  He's a god.  Good luck trying to control him.  And there's no way Banner's going to allow the government to have any sort of authority to use the Hulk as a weapon.  You place Thor and Hulk on the same side of that argument, and suddenly the movie's over in about 5 minutes.

I think the Russos flat out stated that you can't have Thor or the Hulk in a fight like this because whoever's on the other side of the Hulk is just going to lose.

But I think beyond the fact that you might assume that Thor and the Hulk would be on Team Cap, there's also another narrative problem in that Thor and the Hulk wouldn't be fighting for the same stakes as the others.  Banner might be on Team Cap but the Hulk is always on Team Hulk.  And Thor is a god that lives on another world.  He didn't ask for permission when he came back to Earth to retrieve the Tesseract, he didn't ask for permission to attack the Dark Elves in Thor: The Dark World.  The Sokovia Accords don't mean the same thing to him as it does to people like Stark and Rogers.  Thor already answers to a higher power than anyone on Earth (to him).  If Odin orders him to go to Earth and do something, I don't think Ban Ki-Moon can really override that order.

But really, this was not even a problem that the Russos needed to deal with.  Age of Ultron preempted that problem by sending both of them away.  It was less that the Russos needed a reason to keep them away, they would have had to invent a reason to bring them back.  There was no good reason to do that, so they could simply leave those characters on the sidelines.

hurple

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #39 on: May 17, 2016, 02:18:36 PM »
Well, if nothing else they will be busy until 2019, since they were handed Infinity War Part One and Two (although they've said they are renaming them because they aren't really a two part movie: almost everyone pretty much expects them now to be called Avengers: Infinity Gauntlet and Avengers: Infinity War or something similar).

Unlike Joss Whedon who admitted to extreme exhaustion after the first Avengers movie and admitted that played a role in some of the mistakes in Age of Ultron, the Russo brothers seem pretty jazzed in general about working on these films and still seem to be excited to be working on Infinity War.  I think that matters a great deal to their success so far.

At least one of them is not Vince Russo.  He's an ass.  Ha!


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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #40 on: May 23, 2016, 07:28:24 AM »
Finally saw it. Thought it was the best of the MCU so far.

It's funny since they're not in the plans but it really seemed to me to be a perfect set up for a Captain America: Secret Avengers movie. And the way they set up and left Zemo would segue nicely into a Thunderbolts movie.

Spoiler for Hidden:
I thought all the characters and action were well done but it still struck me as funny that they used the Superfriends logic of Giant normal guy > any super powered guy. It really took way longer and way more of them than it should have to beat a Giant Scott Lang with basically no combat training. Probably the biggest disappointment to me (well apart from it being terrible) of the Ant Man movie was them picking Scott. It meant I'd never get to see a live action version of Cap beating the hell out of giant Pym.

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #41 on: May 23, 2016, 09:14:51 PM »
Spoiler for Hidden:
I thought all the characters and action were well done but it still struck me as funny that they used the Superfriends logic of Giant normal guy > any super powered guy. It really took way longer and way more of them than it should have to beat a Giant Scott Lang with basically no combat training. Probably the biggest disappointment to me (well apart from it being terrible) of the Ant Man movie was them picking Scott. It meant I'd never get to see a live action version of Cap beating the hell out of giant Pym.

Spoiler for Hidden:
I thought they handled Giant Man fairly well, for this reason: he actually isn't "greater" than the others, just bigger (and thus stronger in the physical resiliency sense).  But while he was bigger, he was also slower and not really very combat effective.  He was swatting at things and throwing big things, but he didn't really "defeat" the rest of the team.  What he did do was what he set out to do: he was a really effective distraction, and it required a coordinated effort from Team Iron Man to bring him down - literally.  Doing that tied up [pun intended] Spider Man, Iron Man, and War Machine.  That made it easier for Cap and Bucky to get to the Quinjet, which is all they were trying to do.  But just tripping him and knocking him over was enough to more or less take him out of the fight.

Vee

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #42 on: May 23, 2016, 09:34:38 PM »
Spoiler for Hidden:
Yeah it was fine and worked narratively, just struck me as funny. They hit a reasonable point on the spectrum between Cap pummeling Pym easily and giant Toyman using Wonder Woman as a yo-yo.

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #43 on: May 23, 2016, 09:56:01 PM »
Spoiler for Hidden:
The only thing that bugged me (no pun intended) about Giant Ant-Man was that in the Ant-Man movie, there was some mumbo-jumbo about him being stronger when he's small because his molecules are compressed tighter or something. So apparently he retains the same mass regardless of size? That's supported by creating large dents in the car roof when he hits it. But then he can ride ants around without crushing them, and people don't fall over just from him walking on their shoulders, so his super-density or whatever seems awfully selective. Comic book logic I guess. I didn't read the ant-man comics so I don't know the 'real' explanation if there is one.

Either way, if he's stronger because he's tiny, shouldn't Giant-Man be... super weak?

Was totally worth it to see him play up the theatrics with his movie monster face though.

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #44 on: May 23, 2016, 10:21:40 PM »
It's basically mumbo jumbo in the comics too, though he retains his strength without retaining mass when small. The extra mass goes to another dimension and he draws mass from there when increasing size. I was never clear on why he had giant strength instead of just regular guy strength when large though.

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #45 on: May 23, 2016, 10:30:30 PM »
I don't have my old Marvel Handbooks nearby, but in those Giant-Man/Goliath was one of the weaker super strong heroes out there. At 10 foot tall he could lift (press) 1500 pounds ... putting him at less than twice the strength of Captain America in the same books. At 50 foot he could lift maybe 20 tons or something ... and he was established as actually being able to grow too large for his muscles to support his weight.  He always had his full strength at ant-size in the past-- which is a seriously scary thought when you think about how tiny an ant typically is.

I suppose you can handwave it that the mass he gains from the other dimension is stronger and more durable than normal human flesh ... after all, the Hulk also gains mass from another dimension and he was MUCH stronger than Giant-Man ever was.

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #46 on: May 23, 2016, 10:58:41 PM »
Sounds good to me.

I remember they kept upping his max height as the years went on. iirc 35 feet was too much for him in the early years.

Arcana

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #47 on: May 24, 2016, 01:42:40 AM »
Spoiler for Hidden:
The only thing that bugged me (no pun intended) about Giant Ant-Man was that in the Ant-Man movie, there was some mumbo-jumbo about him being stronger when he's small because his molecules are compressed tighter or something. So apparently he retains the same mass regardless of size? That's supported by creating large dents in the car roof when he hits it. But then he can ride ants around without crushing them, and people don't fall over just from him walking on their shoulders, so his super-density or whatever seems awfully selective. Comic book logic I guess. I didn't read the ant-man comics so I don't know the 'real' explanation if there is one.

Either way, if he's stronger because he's tiny, shouldn't Giant-Man be... super weak?

Was totally worth it to see him play up the theatrics with his movie monster face though.

I would recommend spoiler tags for this topic.

Pym particles are more mumbo jumbo than most comic book technobabble, but if you want at least a semblance of something that is mildly plausible:

Spoiler for Hidden:
There's actually two distinct things we call "mass" - gravitational mass and inertial mass.  Gravitational mass is the physical property of generating and responding to a gravitational field, or if you prefer its the general relativistic property of warping spacetime.  Inertial mass is the physical property of resisting accelerating induced by a force, i.e. F=MA.  General Relativity postulates these two masses are identical and equivalent.  But there's no direct proof they are (besides General Relativity doing really well with that assumption).  To explain what happens in the movie Ant-Man you pretty much have to assume that Henry Pym discovers a way to violate the principle of inertial mass/gravitational mass equivalence.  Pym particles reduce gravitational mass without reducing inertial mass.  So when Ant-Man stands on the end of a gun his gravitational mass doesn't yank the gun towards the ground, and his gravitational weight doesn't crush the ants he rides.  But when he punches things his arm has the same inertia as it does at full size which allows him to generate  the same amount of force but concentrated in a smaller target area.  There are problems with this that would take a lot of gyrations to explain, like how the ants he rides can accelerate him forward even if he doesn't crush them, but you're probably not going to explain all of this.

In any case, if we assume that one of the great discoveries Pym makes is a way to decouple inertial mass and gravitational mass as part of the shrinking process, there's a way to grow objects in a way that manipulates their gravitational mass and inertial mass in similar ways.  But if gravitational rose proportional to size while inertial mass remained constant he'd be really easy to just tip over.  Also, gravitational mass scaling proportionally upward with size creates squared/cubed structural effects: he could snap his legs because they were not strong enough to hold his weight - Scott even jokingly remarks he might tear himself in half.  To make Giant Man work, he has to get bigger, get stronger, but not have the cubically scaling weight of his body overpower his strength.    He has to have a different ratio of inertial mass and gravitational mass than what shrinking does.  That has to be carefully tuned, so growing isn't just the inverse of shrinking.  But it can function on similar principles, assuming you buy into those principles working in the first place.

If you want to hear something *really* crazy, I don't think Ant-Man shrinks.  I think Pym particles shrink the space he occupies in a very complex way.  But that's a really, really, really technical discussion.  But I think it is the only way to explain how Scott enters "the quantum realm" in the movie Ant-Man.

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #48 on: May 24, 2016, 03:31:24 AM »
I think Pym particles shrink the space he occupies in a very complex way.  But that's a really, really, really technical discussion.  But I think it is the only way to explain how Scott enters "the quantum realm" in the movie Ant-Man.

So... the ol' "space is warped and time is bendable" trick...
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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #49 on: May 24, 2016, 04:09:04 AM »
So... the ol' "space is warped and time is bendable" trick...

Here's a fact that isn't offered to "prove" anything, but it might inspire entertaining thoughts.  Dark energy, the energy component that causes universal inflation, actually has negative pressure.  Its a little tricky, but imagine a balloon which has positive pressure (gas) inside.  To squeeze it and make it smaller you have to put energy into it: you have to work to squeeze it smaller.  But imagine the balloon now is filled with a negative pressure gas, if that was possible.  Now, the reverse would be true: to expand the balloon you'd have to work to pull it outward and the pressure would be fighting you. And if you tried to squeeze it smaller then the reverse would happen also: instead of using energy to squeeze the balloon smaller you'd actually extract energy out of the balloon.  Dark energy is kind of like that: as a region of space expands energy is created to fill the space to the same density, and when a region of space collapses energy is lost.  Dark energy's negative pressure wants to contract, to pull inward, but it can't because space is filled with the dark energy field in every direction.  In effect, dark energy's "pull" is pulling equally in all directions.**  All that's left is the general relativistic effect of that energy content altering spacetime, and for mathy reasons that manifests as an expansion.

Now suppose Pym particles could interact with the dark energy field.  What would happen to regions of space cut off from the negative pressure field of the rest of the universe?  What would happen to regions of space where the perfect balance of negative pressure by the dark energy field was no longer in perfect balance?  Honestly, I'm not sure: my relativity dial doesn't quite go that high at the moment.  I'm not even sure if general relativity has a precise answer to this question, but maybe Henry Pym discovered a better answer than Einstein did.


** Technically, I'm not sure if dark energy's negative pressure "pulls" on anything in particular: in at least some formulations dark energy has negative pressure, but like a tree falling in the woods with no one to hear it that pressure has nothing to interact with because dark energy doesn't interact with matter.  But in this speculative context that is something you could reasonably hand wave away.

Pep Rally

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #50 on: May 24, 2016, 05:26:44 AM »
I saw the movie opening Friday, and again last week, and I think it may be the best superhero movie I've ever seen. It's at least right up there with the Avengers, Winter Soldier, and GotG. Absolutely awesome. 

I pretty much agree with Arcana on all points about the movie. 9.5 seems accurate.

Regarding the Howard Stark assassination video, I figured they didn't want to just show the low quality 1991 VHS security footage, so they intercut the parts where you are actually there in 1991 at the car crash. Tony doesn't actually see from every angle at the car crash(He may add that with his imagination).

Also, I think Tony specifically picked Spider-man for not only the science, trust, and mentor reasons, but because his powers, specifically high agility, spider-sense, and webbing are perfect to keep him out of harms way, and incapacitate(not harm) his foes. Tony was probably too proud to go to Tom Waits for some non-lethal weapons.

The reason Cap called in Ant-man, Hawkeye, and Scarlet Witch was because they were going to Siberia to fight a bunch of "psycho-assassins" that were supposed to be worse than Bucky, not to fight Team Iron-man.

Tony brought backup to make the sides so lopsided that Cap would surrender without a fight. Failing that, Spider-man would web up Team Cap. He did not count on Cap having more help.

hurple

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #51 on: May 24, 2016, 02:02:09 PM »
Spoiler for Hidden:
giant Toyman using Wonder Woman as a yo-yo.

Oooooo, I hope that'a in the upcoming movie.

 ;D :o ;D

hurple

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #52 on: May 24, 2016, 02:05:13 PM »
It's basically mumbo jumbo in the comics too, though he retains his strength without retaining mass when small. The extra mass goes to another dimension and he draws mass from there when increasing size. I was never clear on why he had giant strength instead of just regular guy strength when large though.

Maybe he's similar to The Atom who can also control his weight and density independent of his size. 

hurple

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #53 on: May 24, 2016, 02:09:36 PM »
I saw the movie opening Friday, and again last week, and I think it may be the best superhero movie I've ever seen. It's at least right up there with the Avengers, Winter Soldier, and GotG. Absolutely awesome. 

I pretty much agree with Arcana on all points about the movie. 9.5 seems accurate.

Regarding the Howard Stark assassination video, I figured they didn't want to just show the low quality 1991 VHS security footage, so they intercut the parts where you are actually there in 1991 at the car crash. Tony doesn't actually see from every angle at the car crash(He may add that with his imagination).

Also, I think Tony specifically picked Spider-man for not only the science, trust, and mentor reasons, but because his powers, specifically high agility, spider-sense, and webbing are perfect to keep him out of harms way, and incapacitate(not harm) his foes. Tony was probably too proud to go to Tom Waits for some non-lethal weapons.

The reason Cap called in Ant-man, Hawkeye, and Scarlet Witch was because they were going to Siberia to fight a bunch of "psycho-assassins" that were supposed to be worse than Bucky, not to fight Team Iron-man.

Tony brought backup to make the sides so lopsided that Cap would surrender without a fight. Failing that, Spider-man would web up Team Cap. He did not count on Cap having more help.

This makes sense.  But, I have to ask, when did Tom Waits put his recording career on hold to become a weapons manufacturer?  He did not mention that in the last Uncut interview?


 :o


Pep Rally

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #54 on: May 24, 2016, 02:44:16 PM »
This makes sense.  But, I have to ask, when did Tom Waits put his recording career on hold to become a weapons manufacturer?  He did not mention that in the last Uncut interview?


 :o

Around 1999, he invented the Blame-Thrower, Electro-Nuclear Magnet, Shrinker, and Canned-Tornado to help the Mystery Men aka Super Squad defeat Cassanova Frankenstein, and save Champion City.


edit: I'd also like to add that Ant-man does have some fight training[from Hank(former superhero Ant-man), and Hope(who had been training in hopes of being a superhero as shown in his movie)] on top of master burglary skills(including parkour). He may not be at Scarlet Witch, or Cap level, but he does know Size-Fu.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 04:26:56 PM by Pep Rally »

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #55 on: May 24, 2016, 04:39:23 PM »
Loved it.

But I did find myself wondering what Vision was doing during most of the airport fight.
Maybe he just wanted to watch for a while before swooping in out of fear of hurting anyone? Because with his established powers from Age of Ultron he alone could have taken out most of Team Cap pretty quickly.

And Pym particles are just straight up magic. They make Reed's unstable molecules seem perfectly reasonable.

Arcana

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #56 on: May 24, 2016, 06:38:18 PM »
And Pym particles are just straight up magic.

Plausibility runs the gamut from one to ten, but remember that even 9.999 on the plausibility scale technically means it is just as impossibly magical as 1.0.

Quote
But I did find myself wondering what Vision was doing during most of the airport fight.
Maybe he just wanted to watch for a while before swooping in out of fear of hurting anyone? Because with his established powers from Age of Ultron he alone could have taken out most of Team Cap pretty quickly.

Maybe he was ... distracted.

Arcana

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #57 on: May 24, 2016, 06:50:00 PM »
Tony brought backup to make the sides so lopsided that Cap would surrender without a fight. Failing that, Spider-man would web up Team Cap. He did not count on Cap having more help.

He had to know Cap was going to have some help.  He had to know Falcon and Winter Soldier would be with Cap, and:

Spoiler for Hidden:
The Vision knew that Hawkeye helped Scarlet Witch escape.  The only wild card was Ant-Man, especially when "Tiny Dude is big now."

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #58 on: May 24, 2016, 07:03:40 PM »
But I did find myself wondering what Vision was doing during most of the airport fight.
Maybe he just wanted to watch for a while before swooping in out of fear of hurting anyone? Because with his established powers from Age of Ultron he alone could have taken out most of Team Cap pretty quickly.

Pretty sure Scarlet Witch was keeping him occupied. If Thor had been there, he would have been the logical choice to take on Vision, given Vision's power level as shown in AoU. However, they seem to have amped up Wanda's abilities quite a bit in between, making her a significant player. Or maybe it's just Vision's achilles' heel since it's something he doesn't really understand.

Arcana

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #59 on: May 24, 2016, 07:18:28 PM »
Pretty sure Scarlet Witch was keeping him occupied. If Thor had been there, he would have been the logical choice to take on Vision, given Vision's power level as shown in AoU. However, they seem to have amped up Wanda's abilities quite a bit in between, making her a significant player. Or maybe it's just Vision's achilles' heel since it's something he doesn't really understand.

I believe the Russos have stated that as they see it Wanda's powers theoretically make her one of the most powerful Avengers, rivaling Thor, the Hulk, and Vision, but it is her own fear of her powers that limits her.  Between her ability to manipulate minds and her telekinetic or reality altering powers (it is unclear which it actually is) she clearly has the theoretical ability to incapacitate Iron Man, confuse the Hulk, and (itty bitty spoiler) she can challenge the Vision.  If we discover her powers can affect Mjolnir (even to just send it flying away from Thor or otherwise prevent him from reaching it) that would make her the equal of all the most powerful Avengers at least individually, if she's willing to use those powers to their fullest potential.

That makes her an interesting wild card going into Infinity War.  Especially with the Vision possessing one of the Infinity Stones in probably a very integral way.

And yeah, I assumed that most of the time Wanda and Vision were keeping each other in check.  They clearly have the most ability to change the course of the fight, but are also the two that have the most self-restraint about how they use their powers against the other Avengers and each other.

Vee

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #60 on: May 24, 2016, 07:36:35 PM »
Spoiler for Hidden:
i think they did a good job with Wanda especially given how her powers are all over the place in the source material. They found a good spot between the underpowered early Wanda and the insanely overpowered later Wanda, where she's still learning but has good enough control that she could basically bail out the entire team at one point or other in the big fight.

Was funny that vision flew through Scott but didn't partially solidify to knock him out, which would have been comics' vision's go to move. Of course that would have ended the fight too quickly and wouldn't have let them get in the 'really old movie' line.

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #61 on: May 26, 2016, 02:46:02 AM »
So I've been watching/reading reviews of Civil War, and after over a hundred reviews I've noticed something that I find to be an amazing accomplishment for the movie you can't fully appreciate unless you actually read/watch dozens and dozens of reviews (incidentally, I don't recommend this for people that do not have a "dispassionate" switch when it comes to the internet).

Some people really love this movie.  Some people hate this movie.  That's cool.  But there's a very specific and not small subset of reviewers that are very critical of the movie in a very particular way.  And of these people, some like it and some don't like it but they do mostly agree on three things.

1.  Its a Disney/Marvel superhero movies, and superhero movies are basically for children and people who want mindless popcorn entertainment.

2.  The plot is completely throwaway and only there as an excuse for the action.  More than one reviewer compared the plot to Civil War to the plot to professional wrestling storylines.  You're not supposed to think about it too much, or at all.

3.  Because of (1) and (2) above, one side has to be cartoonishly stupid and wrong, so that the obviously right side has something to do.

Here's the thing I'm "enjoying" about all of this, and I have to put "enjoy" in quotes here because I'm more intellectually amused than anything else, but I am impressed with the movie in a meta way.  The amazing accomplishment of Civil War is that about 50% of this type of reviewer thinks the cartoonishly wrong side is Iron Man, and the other 50% thinks it is Captain America.

Think about that.  The Russos have crafted a movie in which, for most of the people who see superhero movies as cartoonish and simplistic, these people think it should take no thought at all to know who is right and who is wrong, but they can't agree which side that is.  There isn't even a majority consensus.  The split seems to be almost dead down the middle.

An intelligent person should come to the conclusion that looking at this movie as a simplistic moral cartoon is the wrong way to look at it if that perspective doesn't consistently arrive at the same conclusion.  A suspicious person might even think the writers and directors intended to create this intellectual trap as a very subtle meta statement about reviewers that approach their work with this perspective.  I'd like to think that somewhere in the back of their minds they thought this might happen, and smiled.  If so, bravo.

hurple

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #62 on: May 26, 2016, 01:48:35 PM »

An intelligent person should come to the conclusion that looking at this movie as a simplistic moral cartoon is the wrong way to look at it if that perspective doesn't consistently arrive at the same conclusion.  A suspicious person might even think the writers and directors intended to create this intellectual trap as a very subtle meta statement about reviewers that approach their work with this perspective.  I'd like to think that somewhere in the back of their minds they thought this might happen, and smiled.  If so, bravo.

I think this dichotomy was built into the movie on purpose, but not as a statement about critics, but another group.

And, it's also a great accomplishment that about 15  (totally made up number)  different groups can be substituted for "critics".


Arcana

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #63 on: June 01, 2016, 04:02:21 AM »
Another comment, this one about how tight the writing was for Civil War.  No movie is perfect, and there are always going to be little flaws here and there.  But this film seems to have less glaring ones regarding plot.  I was watching this recently: 4 Huge Plot Holes in Captain America: Civil War  Here are those four "huge" plot holes, scrubbed of spoilers:

1.  Why wasn't the Vision at the first fight in Lagos.  Err, why is this a plot hole?  Is the presumption that the Vision should be at every Avengers mission possible?  The complaint is that if the Vision was there the fight could have been resolved more easily.  But to call this a major plot hole seems to be a stretch.  This often comes up when someone complains about a plot hole.  They call something a plot hole if the story doesn't have a reason to go the way they think it should.  But that's not a plot hole.  It is a plot hole only if the story moves in a nonsensical way with no reasonable explanation.  "The Vision doesn't go on every Avengers mission" is not a nonsensical story point.

2.  Ross tries to guilt trip the Avengers but fails to mention things like the WSC attempting to nuke New York and Rogers fails to mention this either.  A lot of people keep pointing this out, but first it is not a plot hole if people act differently than you, it is only a plot hole if they act out of character for incomprehensible reasons.  Ross is trying to make the case that people are afraid of the Avengers.  He actually stated that explicitly.  Rogers saying "well, you guys do bad things also" is irrelevant to that point, and Rogers doesn't mention it precisely because it is irrelevant and Rogers didn't grow up arguing on the internet.  It is not a plot hole if people discuss things differently than you.

3.  Zemo's plan requires the Sokovia Accords.  No it doesn't.  Sorry, the video makers are just wrong.  Their claim that we have to assume Zemo "thought on his feet" to adapt to the Sokovia Accords is equally wrong.  Absolutely no part of Zemo's plan requires the Sokovia Accords to be enacted.  In an alternate world where the Accords are never enacted, Zemo's plan works equally well.  I don't know why they even mention it.  Unless they had a four bullet list quota.

4.  What would Zemo have done if Tony didn't act the way he did at the end of the movie?  Uh, nothing.  His plan didn't require Tony to do anything.  It would have been less interesting for us as movie goers if Tony didn't go where he went, but Zemo isn't trying to look good for a movie he doesn't know he's in.  Once Zemo found what he was looking for, as far as he was concerned he won.  The rest was inevitable.  Unless Captain America, say, murdered him and buried him and everything he had in the snow.  As long as Zemo assumes that's not going to happen, he wins.

These guys make a living pointing out plot holes, and this is the best they got.  That tells me the writers did their jobs pretty well.

4. 

hurple

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #64 on: June 01, 2016, 02:10:03 PM »

2.  Ross tries to guilt trip the Avengers but fails to mention things like the WSC attempting to nuke New York and Rogers fails to mention this either.  A lot of people keep pointing this out, but first it is not a plot hole if people act differently than you, it is only a plot hole if they act out of character for incomprehensible reasons.  Ross is trying to make the case that people are afraid of the Avengers.  He actually stated that explicitly.  Rogers saying "well, you guys do bad things also" is irrelevant to that point, and Rogers doesn't mention it precisely because it is irrelevant and Rogers didn't grow up arguing on the internet.  It is not a plot hole if people discuss things differently than you.


You're right. This is not a plot hole in this instance, however, it is quite a glaring omission later, when Captain America is explaining why The Avengers being "conntrolled" by a world council would be a bad thing.  If they're willing to nuke NY, then they are way more than willing to use the Avengers as weapons to further their political agenda rather than to help people. 

Again, not a "plot hole" but a HUGE miss on the Captain America side of the debate not to use this to further his argument.

But, like I have said, they write Mr Rogers (heh) as a great battle strategist, not a great thinker or debater.   :D

Ulysses Dare

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #65 on: June 01, 2016, 11:28:36 PM »
it is quite a glaring omission later, when Captain America is explaining why The Avengers being "conntrolled" by a world council would be a bad thing.  If they're willing to nuke NY, then they are way more than willing to use the Avengers as weapons to further their political agenda rather than to help people. 

Again, not a "plot hole" but a HUGE miss on the Captain America side of the debate not to use this to further his argument.

As I recall, the movie made quite a big point out of the fact the Avengers would be working for the UN, not SHIELD or the WSC. So, once again, the misdeeds of the WSC aren't relevant.

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #66 on: June 02, 2016, 09:24:04 AM »
With the UN in charge, they would never be able to agree to mobilize the Avengers.  And in the rare instances they did, it'd probably be too late.
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.

hurple

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #67 on: June 02, 2016, 06:42:50 PM »
As I recall, the movie made quite a big point out of the fact the Avengers would be working for the UN, not SHIELD or the WSC. So, once again, the misdeeds of the WSC aren't relevant.

They are relevant as an example of a governing body taking the wrong steps.  Such as, "Yes, we were answerable to a governing body previously, and they wanted to nuke New York City.  Luckily, we were there to stop them."

See?

Arcana

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #68 on: June 02, 2016, 07:09:35 PM »
They are relevant as an example of a governing body taking the wrong steps.  Such as, "Yes, we were answerable to a governing body previously, and they wanted to nuke New York City.  Luckily, we were there to stop them."

See?

They are relevant to the notion that oversight can generate just as bad results, but that is not a counter to Ross' argument which was not that oversight is better than no oversight, it was that people were afraid of the Avengers and felt the need for oversight over their actions.  Telling the world that everyone else was just as bad or worse wouldn't make them fear the Avengers any less, it would just make them fear everything else more.  Undermining people's belief that the UN could oversee the Avengers would just create Tony's worst case scenario of the governments of the world doing something worse.  That something worse would probably be to have each and every single country in the world decide not to trust any other and demand that every time the Avengers wanted to act in any country they would have to negotiate with the politicians in that country separately.  You'd just have to deal with 200 different untrustworthy political groups rather than one.

In other words, Ross' response to "Yes, we were answerable to a governing body previously, and they wanted to nuke New York City.  Luckily, we were there to stop them" could be to say "So?  You want to tell the world that?  And then what?  The world wants you on a leash.  If you tell the world that they can't trust central oversight, then what?  They just all change their minds?  No.  They each demand their own individual governments deal with it on their own, without cooperating with any other.  You can't escape politicians by avoiding the Accords.  You'll just trade one group for two hundred groups of them.  Oh, and you're all still US citizens, so whether you sign or not you'd still be subject to the laws of the United States of America.  So if the Accords collapse, the US government will probably take unilateral action to control you, and that won't require you to sign anything."

Its a valid point to bring up, but it leads to a losing position overall.

CG

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #69 on: June 02, 2016, 08:12:41 PM »
In other words, Ross' response to "Yes, we were answerable to a governing body previously, and they wanted to nuke New York City.  Luckily, we were there to stop them" could be to say "So?  You want to tell the world that?  And then what?  The world wants you on a leash.  If you tell the world that they can't trust central oversight, then what?  They just all change their minds?  No.  They each demand their own individual governments deal with it on their own, without cooperating with any other.  You can't escape politicians by avoiding the Accords.  You'll just trade one group for two hundred groups of them.  Oh, and you're all still US citizens, so whether you sign or not you'd still be subject to the laws of the United States of America.  So if the Accords collapse, the US government will probably take unilateral action to control you, and that won't require you to sign anything."

Its a valid point to bring up, but it leads to a losing position overall.
They never had any right to be an independent world police force.  I'm not sure if they negotiated their way into Nigeria or just landed with a mission in mind.  While the 200 participants are fighting with each other, the accords collapse and the Avengers are back to being an independent body.  No accords means back to business as usual for the Avengers.

Also - they're not all American citizens.  Scarlet Witch is likely Sokovian. Vision might not even be legally a person. Black Widow might be Russian, but I'm sure she has lots of passports.  Beyond which, there would certainly be a valid constitutional challenge about being unilaterally controlled by the US government.  The draft works because it's applied evenly to a class of people without being specific.  Drafting an individual wouldn't fly, I think.  Not to mention these people aren't without the means to fight back.

hurple

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #70 on: June 02, 2016, 08:28:42 PM »
Right.  The overall point it, neither side was right and neither side was wrong.  There are cognizant arguments either way.  It's just with all the points raised by Ross, and all the videos shown the complete lack of any mention of the attempted nuking of New York by the "we don't want oversight" side was an elephant in the room. 

Just sayin'


Arcana

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #71 on: June 02, 2016, 08:57:36 PM »
They never had any right to be an independent world police force.  I'm not sure if they negotiated their way into Nigeria or just landed with a mission in mind.  While the 200 participants are fighting with each other, the accords collapse and the Avengers are back to being an independent body.  No accords means back to business as usual for the Avengers.

Not quite.  No Accords means the Avengers become officially criminals when they act without the permission of the government of the nation they try to operate within, whereas before they were operating within a grey area where everyone looked the other way.

And as previously mentioned, getting permission is not a trivial affair.  I know how complex this would be if it was an outside agency attempting to work within the US under US law, it can't be all that much better when it is the reverse.  For reference, look up the regulatory environment that Interpol works under.


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Also - they're not all American citizens.  Scarlet Witch is likely Sokovian. Vision might not even be legally a person. Black Widow might be Russian, but I'm sure she has lots of passports.  Beyond which, there would certainly be a valid constitutional challenge about being unilaterally controlled by the US government.  The draft works because it's applied evenly to a class of people without being specific.  Drafting an individual wouldn't fly, I think.  Not to mention these people aren't without the means to fight back.

I stand corrected.  The Avengers aren't all US citizens.  Thor, obviously, is not.  Wanda is not.  However, that doesn't make things better, it makes them worse.  They are all still subject to US law, but on top of that the US government can demand that the non-citizen members of the Avengers comply with its requests or be expelled.  Non-citizens have no constitutional right to remain in the country and they can be asked to leave for any reason or no reason.

I'm not sure what US constitutional challenge the Avengers would have to being compelled to work for the US government.  They can refuse, but they can then be prosecuted whenever they act in a manner that would be illegal if not sanctioned by the government.  The police can legally do things a vigilante cannot specifically because they are the police and have the legal authorization to do those things.  For example, if the events in Lagos had happened on US soil the Avengers could have been prosecuted for, among other things, reckless endangerment of the public.  Had they not pursued the thiefs, no one would have died.  The argument that stopping them from getting away with what they stole was important enough to risk public safety is not a decision they have the legal right to make.  US citizens are not empowered to take law enforcement actions which kill bystanders because they think it is important enough.

CG

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #72 on: June 03, 2016, 02:20:16 PM »
Not quite.  No Accords means the Avengers become officially criminals when they act without the permission of the government of the nation they try to operate within, whereas before they were operating within a grey area where everyone looked the other way.

There's nothing grey about going into a country uninvited and starting a police action.  At best the countries turned a blind eye to it, but they were always blatantly illegal unless invited.  Maybe they did good, and the public was on their side so they weren't charged, but it's not like getting satellite TV from across the border. More likely, it's just a super-hero genre convention.

And as previously mentioned, getting permission is not a trivial affair.  I know how complex this would be if it was an outside agency attempting to work within the US under US law, it can't be all that much better when it is the reverse.  For reference, look up the regulatory environment that Interpol works under.

Absolutely.  I was always curious about how they went about hunting down Hydra.  Surely there were corrupt officials in the countries who would inform Hydra that the Avengers were incoming, if they too the time to negotiate their way in?  I think this is a case of comic book logic where vigilantes are tolerated in a way not acceptable in the real world.  The Sokovia Accords was a bit of a genre shift in that regard since it pointed out that this would never be acceptable.

I stand corrected.  The Avengers aren't all US citizens.  Thor, obviously, is not.  Wanda is not.  However, that doesn't make things better, it makes them worse.  They are all still subject to US law, but on top of that the US government can demand that the non-citizen members of the Avengers comply with its requests or be expelled.  Non-citizens have no constitutional right to remain in the country and they can be asked to leave for any reason or no reason.

I'm not sure what US constitutional challenge the Avengers would have to being compelled to work for the US government.  They can refuse, but they can then be prosecuted whenever they act in a manner that would be illegal if not sanctioned by the government. 

The US can demand they stop vigilante activities, for sure.  I thought you were saying that the US Government could compel the individuals to act as the Government dictated.  That's where their constitutional challenge would happen.  It's one thing to tell people not to be vigilantes, it's another to say that they're being conscripted or sent to the Negative Zone/The Raft if they don't do as their told.

Personally, I would love to see a Marvel courtroom drama where they debate whether Vision is a person or equipment (a la ST:TNG's The Measure of a Man).  Marvel keeps saying that Super-heroes isn't a genre, it's a type of character that can be put into any genre.  Daredevil is already a courtroom drama and Jessica Jones is pretty much a straight drama (as I understand).  How about the Marvel movie version of "12 Angry Men"? When do we get the first Rom-Com?

Arcana

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #73 on: June 03, 2016, 07:32:12 PM »
There's nothing grey about going into a country uninvited and starting a police action.  At best the countries turned a blind eye to it, but they were always blatantly illegal unless invited.

The grey area I was thinking of was the fact that in the Marvel Cinematic Universe it seems there has always (or at least for a long time) been a loose agreement to let organizations like the SSR and SHIELD operate with tacit permission by the various governments but covertly, which means there might not be anything written on paper or anything.  When a foreign government grants permission for SHIELD to operate within their borders, but they do so in a way that might not be perfectly legal within their own domestic laws, its not trivial to state whether they are operating "illegally."  Their governments might have been acting illegally relative to their own domestic laws and could be tried in their own domestic courts, but its unclear if the Avengers were specifically violating international law prior to the Sokovia Accord agreements.  Technically yes in a lot of nit-picky ways: they probably violated customs laws and ingress/egress laws, for example.  But if there was a previous if covert agreement to allow them to act under exigent circumstances, I think it is likely they wouldn't be convicted in international court for those acts.

Whatever agreements that allowed the World Security Council to operate in general, the Sokovia Accords almost certainly swept them away if there was any doubt about it.

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Personally, I would love to see a Marvel courtroom drama where they debate whether Vision is a person or equipment (a la ST:TNG's The Measure of a Man).  Marvel keeps saying that Super-heroes isn't a genre, it's a type of character that can be put into any genre.  Daredevil is already a courtroom drama and Jessica Jones is pretty much a straight drama (as I understand).  How about the Marvel movie version of "12 Angry Men"? When do we get the first Rom-Com?

Way ahead of you.

As an aside, the government can't simply declare VISION to be a non-person legally to compel him to work for the government.  As a non-person, VISION couldn't assert Constitutional rights to prevent that, but as a non-person the government couldn't legally compel him to work for them as well.  The courts can't order a machine to do anything.  They could legally use force on him to get him to cooperate, or at least try, but if they fail they've just been unsuccessful in fixing a malfunctioning machine.  There would be no legal recourse for them.  Continuing to treat him as a person is their best move, because as long as VISION believes he should act consistent with being a person they could still convince him to act within the boundaries of the law.  As a machine, VISION would have no legal responsibility to do so.

Arcana

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #74 on: June 10, 2016, 09:57:05 PM »
Personally, I would love to see a Marvel courtroom drama where they debate whether Vision is a person or equipment (a la ST:TNG's The Measure of a Man).

I did some homework here, and interestingly it seems 21st century Earth law might be vastly ahead of STTNG law.  In a case involving whether higher order animals (like chimpanzees) have legal rights Black's Law Dictionary was cited to address the question of what is "a person."

"So far as legal theory is concerned, a person is any being whom the law regards as capable of rights and duties... Persons are the substances of which rights and duties are the attributes. It is only in this respect that persons possess juridical significance, and this is the exclusive point of view from which personality receives legal recognition."

Corporations, for example, can be an "artificial person" (the legal term) because they can be and generally are treated as a legal entity that possesses rights and bears responsibilities.  The question of whether some entity is a person for legal purposes comes down primarily to whether it is deemed appropriate to grant them legal rights and simultaneously weigh them with the commensurate responsibilities of those rights.  Under 21st century law, it seems likely to me that Data would have been declared a legal person, and also likely that VISION would be, specifically because there would be overwhelming evidence in Data's case that he was being naturally treated like an entity that bore the same responsibilities as other legal persons and was generally granted the same legal rights in most cases.  A similar case could be made for VISION although is history (so far in the movies) is much shorter.

That's not to say that all courts would rule in that way, only that the strong legal case could be made.  Certainly, the dismissive attitude Phillipa has in "Measure of a Man" would probably be inappropriate in a 21st century court.