Ridiculous Question

[TonyV]

The Mysterions are obviously frustrated by not being able to tell us something and nearly uncomprehending (to actively hostile in Burnt Toast's case) when people are falling into despair over the apparent stagnation/failure/indefinite termination of the deal -- "WHY CAN'T YOU FOLKS SEE HOW CLOSE THIS IS!!!" seems to me to be their attitude... but they are also apparently frustrated over the pace of developments.

Where are you getting this impression?  Nate hasn't posted in over five months on the matter, and even back in October of last year, that's not even close to the impression I got.  It just seems to me an awful lot to read into stone cold silence.

[Rejolt]

If I were approached to help a project under a NDA... I think I'd have to sign a NDA to do it.

[Ironwolf]

Where are you getting this impression?  Nate hasn't posted in over five months on the matter, and even back in October of last year, that's not even close to the impression I got.  It just seems to me an awful lot to read into stone cold silence.

I am trying not to read anything into it if possible - no news means the effort is still being attempted. Some people know who the Server team are and also know more about where the talks lie - but they can't say anything. I speculate but also say - that I think this might be happening.

[Arcana]

I know for a fact (unless multiple developers needlessly lied to me) that the database back-end was MS SQL Server.  The server instances running at shutdown were running on 2010 if I recall correctly, but it might have been compatible with earlier versions as well since it was initially developed, of course, before 2010.  I know that they used it in a bit of a funky way, that they didn't just store individual pieces of information in individual fields like most app developers do; that they did stuff like store things as lists or serialized binary data in columns, which is why they always complained that people didn't understand how hard it was to simply query the database for stuff and make changes to the running system.  As I recall, they didn't have much in the way of database programming talent on hand, so they used the database more like just a dumb data store instead of an honest-to-god RDBMS.  Plus, and I didn't get this directly from a dev so I could be wrong about it, but I think the databases weren't actually maintained by Paragon Studios, but by NCsoft out of Austin and/or Seattle, so it's not like Matt Miller could just pull up SQL Management Studio and run a query against the live databases--not even he had that kind of access and had to go through corporate to get something like that done.

Am I in the ballpark of what you're talking about?

I think it was 2k8r2, not 2k10.  Otherwise basically correct.  And the devs didn't have direct access to any of the production anything.  They couldn't just bring up SQL tools and look at the servers directly, nor could they just RDP into the production platforms or anything.  They were gated by operations people.  True for most MMOs.

As the the rest, I still think you're conflating difficult with complex in a way I'm disavowing.  You say its not "hard" just "time consuming" but that's exactly what I'm saying constitutes "hard enough to claim its not worth doing" by a disinterested party.  Anything is possible given enough time and the original source code in its entirety.  But that's like saying we don't even need the source code: anything is possible with the binaries themselves, given only sufficient time to reverse engineer patches.  Icon was created without source code.  A sufficiently interested, knowledgeable, and dedicated person could patch the server images to do anything *without* the source code.  The source code only makes it take less time.

[Arcana]

If I were approached to help a project under a NDA... I think I'd have to sign a NDA to do it.

Almost certainly.  But the reverse engineering community is not a large one, and if people were being approached, it would probably become known even if they couldn't say anything directly.

[FloatingFatMan]

no news means the effort is still being attempted.

I do wish you'd stop saying that. No news means nothing other than no news, and it's bloody annoying!

[Ironwolf]

I do wish you'd stop saying that. No news means nothing other than no news, and it's bloody annoying!

If the effort stops - we will hear. So by direct inference - the effort is still ongoing. You may wish to hold onto anger and disappointment but I don't.

[Arcana]

If the effort stops - we will hear. So by direct inference - the effort is still ongoing. You may wish to hold onto anger and disappointment but I don't.

Possible, likely even, but not absolutely certain.  No company places too much value in an NDA to an individual normally, because we all know most people think the law is that thing they invented to use for the Law and Order franchise.  But its likely NCSoft would not negotiate with someone they felt could not be held to NDAs on more than a pinky promise.  If the negotiating team was required to, say, put up a bond against the NDA, or do something else that attached significant liability consequences to breaking it, its both legally possible and historically accountable that the negotiating team is under a lockup period where no matter what the state of the negotiations are, even if they are no longer viable, they cannot discuss them.  Often, such lockup periods extend for a year or two or more.

No news is no news.  The range of possibilities is sufficiently wide that its not possible to deduce anything from the lack of information.

I would imagine that if things broke down completely, then even with a harsh NDA in place that news would leak out over time, slowly, the way these things do.  I would imagine that at some point a little birdy would arrive on my window sill, but although that hasn't happened yet I cannot (i.e. will not) serve as a deadman's switch for that.

[Drauger9]

I'm in the things are still on going camp here.

We was given to much good news at the start for this to be a ploy by NCSoft. Leasing the IP out to a third party, the green light on CoH 1.5 if everything goes threw, ect...

I believe that right now there's a few things holding up progress. The whole Nexus/NCSoft power struggle, getting a working server (as IronWolf and other's have pointed out. I doubt anyone would pay for a product they don't know works), ect.

I believe IrishGirl when she says. That if the deal was dead, we'd know it.

I know many people here consider themselves realist but in the grand scheme of things what negative news have we received so far? The long silence? From a "realist" perspective couldn't that go either way when combined with all the other news we've gotten?

Until things start to look bleak, I'll be over here cheering the team on. GO TEAM GO! GO TEAM GO!

[Ultimate15]

Possible, likely even, but not absolutely certain.  No company places too much value in an NDA to an individual normally, because we all know most people think the law is that thing they invented to use for the Law and Order franchise.  But its likely NCSoft would not negotiate with someone they felt could not be held to NDAs on more than a pinky promise.  If the negotiating team was required to, say, put up a bond against the NDA, or do something else that attached significant liability consequences to breaking it, its both legally possible and historically accountable that the negotiating team is under a lockup period where no matter what the state of the negotiations are, even if they are no longer viable, they cannot discuss them.  Often, such lockup periods extend for a year or two or more.

No news is no news.  The range of possibilities is sufficiently wide that its not possible to deduce anything from the lack of information.

I would imagine that if things broke down completely, then even with a harsh NDA in place that news would leak out over time, slowly, the way these things do.  I would imagine that at some point a little birdy would arrive on my window sill, but although that hasn't happened yet I cannot (i.e. will not) serve as a deadman's switch for that.

This. As Arcana so eloquently put it, I think that if/when this deal should fall through, we would eventually hear about it. But that could be over the course of a certain period of time - there is no definitive way to know that if we're not hearing anything, that means the deal is steadily proceeding (unless we hear it directly from Nate that he has heard from his contact at NCSoft something to this effect). So, unfortunately, I think I'm in the 'no news is no news' camp I don't think no news is good news, necessarily - I think we'll know good news when we HEAR good news.

Also, I referred to myself as a realist not in the sense that I think we've received 'negative news', but in that I'm TOO cautious (with all that's unknown as the negotiations currently stand) to convince myself that something he said or she said could have a positive spin when it may not. Of course, everyone is entitled to view this however they want - and I hope to be pleasantly surprised should the deal actually land.

*sends good vibes to Nate*

*...also, lottery tickets - homegirl's gonna need some MONEY for all this hahaha*

[Drauger9]

This. As Arcana so eloquently put it, I think that if/when this deal should fall through, we would eventually hear about it. But that could be over the course of a certain period of time - there is no definitive way to know that if we're not hearing anything, that means the deal is steadily proceeding (unless we hear it directly from Nate that he has heard from his contact at NCSoft something to this effect). So, unfortunately, I think I'm in the 'no news is no news' camp I don't think no news is good news, necessarily - I think we'll know good news when we HEAR good news.

Also, I referred to myself as a realist not in the sense that I think we've received 'negative news', but in that I'm TOO cautious (with all that's unknown as the negotiations currently stand) to convince myself that something he said or she said could have a positive spin when it may not. Of course, everyone is entitled to view this however they want - and I hope to be pleasantly surprised should the deal actually land.

*sends good vibes to Nate*

*...also, lottery tickets - homegirl's gonna need some MONEY for all this hahaha*

There are many ways for the team to let us know that the deal fell threw. Without directly telling us as I think Ohioknight put it. Nate could simply say "I'm focusing all my energy in City of Titans". If he was to say something like that. Then I'd assume it'd mean, that the energy he was focusing in making the deal happen. Was no longer needed because the deal isn't going to happen, ect..

I wasn't saying that being a realist meant you was being negative. What I was trying to say is. If you claim to be a realist yet read negatively into the silence. Then are you truly a realist? What is there to decern from silence after good news, with no negative news to follow?

I don't know maybe there's something I'm missing?

[Noyjitat]

Some people know who the Server team are

ah... so there is a server team working on something with this disk image? Or am I reading too much into what you posted or simply misunderstanding?

[Ohioknight]

Where are you getting this impression?  Nate hasn't posted in over five months on the matter, and even back in October of last year, that's not even close to the impression I got.  It just seems to me an awful lot to read into stone cold silence.

Nate hasn't posted here, or on subject, but he has posted. IG has posted quite a bit.  OK maybe Burnt Toast is just a snotty 12-year-old playing with his smartphone, or a middle-aged internet blowhard, I don't know...

I was just answering the question of what made me think what I suspect about the status of the project -- I think there are Mysterion posters on this board (beyond Irish Girl) expressing attitudes ... as I said, I've been wrong and I'm fully aware I may be seeing letters in the clouds -- I was fairly certain that the mole in Young Justice was a clone of Aqualad (which really would have made more sense than the actual story... but anyway)

[Ultimate15]

There are many ways for the team to let us know that the deal fell threw. Without directly telling us as I think Ohioknight put it. Nate could simply say "I'm focusing all my energy in City of Titans". If he was to say something like that. Then I'd assume it'd mean, that the energy he was focusing in making the deal happen. Was no longer needed because the deal isn't going to happen, ect..

I wasn't saying that being a realist meant you was being negative. What I was trying to say is. If you claim to be a realist yet read negatively into the silence. Then are you truly a realist? What is there to decern from silence after good news, with no negative news to follow?

I don't know maybe there's something I'm missing?

If I'm not mistaken, it was Surelle (not Ohioknight - although I've agreed with many of the things he's said as well) who originally suggested that should Nate make the ultimate decision to find some discrete/diplomatic way to inform the rest of the community that he would be moving on from the negotiations, he would do so in such a manner - and I was the first to re-quote and agree with her. But what I'm saying is that there is no way to know where the deal currently stands right NOW in our 'no news/updates' stage (i.e. they may be under a lockup period and there is a definite yes/no, but no one can say anything YET - as Arcana suggested). Ergo, to state that 'no news is good news' might actually be quite false, or be quite true - we don't know, unless Nate were to come forward and specifically say "Hey guys - if you don't hear any updates from me, that's a good thing/bad thing" (which he has not done). So, to air on the side of caution, that is why I prefer the term 'no news is no news'.

I think where you might be confused is in your assumption that people who are of this 'no news is no news' mindset are choosing to automatically have a negative opinion of where the deal currently stands - and while I can't speak for everyone else, I can certainly state that this notion does not accurately reflect my personal views at all. If I were thinking negatively of the situation, I would be in the 'no news is BAD news' camp I'm not being an optimist, and I'm not being a pessimist. I'm just taking the 'no news' for what it is, with no spin this way or that way. I want to see the deal go through just as badly as everyone else does - I was a 7 year veteran of the game, and I think about it all the time.

I'm just opting not to get my hopes up, nor lose hope all together. Does that make more sense?

[MM3squints]

I'm just opting not to get my hopes up, nor lose hope all together. Does that make more sense?

Believe in the best, anticipate the worst? Sounds like a realist

[Ultimate15]

Believe in the best, anticipate the worst? Sounds like a realist

Yaaaaaay! You got it!

*cheers*

[Cailyn Alaynn]

Think about it this way guys... if the deal was stone-cold-dead-in-the-groud...Would I still be trying to convince people to still have hope, and that things are moving (albeit slowly)?



(The answer is probably not Yes.)

[Ultimate15]

Think about it this way guys... if the deal was stone-cold-dead-in-the-groud...Would I still be trying to convince people to still have hope, and that things are moving (albeit slowly)?



(The answer is probably not Yes.)

...Maybe. Perhaps. Somewhat.

[The Fifth Horseman]

We don't have confirmation as to how far the negotiations have progressed, or what is their outcome so far.
Currently the deal is kind of like Schrodinger's Cat - in an indeterminate state barring arrival of new data. Instead of splitting ourselves into "it's dead, cause no news" and "it must be alive, we'd have heard if it died" camps, why not get a cup of tea and sit down in the "wait and see" camp? It's not like a longer wait would kill us.

[Abraxus]

I suppose I am still in the "hopeful" group, just because it has not been called dead officially. 

I have, however, wondered intensely about why such NSA level precautions are taken around negotiations for the resurrection of a defunct game?  I know business is all about competition, but let's face it....the competition in this arena are well known products, which while they may be similar, they are not the overall king of the Superhero genre (like WoW is to fantasy).  There might be some things in development, but they are years in the distance.  I don't claim to know everything about business practices, especially international business, but this all seems WAY too cloak and dagger for the property at stake.