rebuild COH

[CptDraco]

Why did you wait so long to file after allowing  others to use your allegedly abandoned software?

I just have to ask because something like this was mentioned in the OP and several times after in this topic. When did NCSoft allow someone to use any part of CoH?

[Stealth Dart]

Most likely they are alluding to Icon.  This allows you to enter the character creator and make a character that can then "zone in"...but there are no mobs, no powers, no missions and you are basically alone.  Then there is Paragon Chat which allows you to go in to the character creator and make a character that can then "zone in"...and chat, and role-play with other players.  You have basic movement powers plus emotes but once again no mobs, no combat powers or missions as this was all handled on the NCSoft servers which have long since shut down.  Basically Icon and Paragon Chat use the Client side exclusively.  Which is why NCSoft has not bothered with a cease and desist order.

[Tahquitz]

Actually publications in gaming and or tech magazines say what their readers want to hear. The Federal Statutes clearly describe Abandonware. Well  not so clearly to those who don't read legalese. The Federal Statutes clearly describes the  law as it applies to Proprietary Rights.  I have no doubt that  NCsoft would be first asked by ANY Judge in a court proceeding, Why did you wait so long to file after allowing  others to use your allegedly abandoned software? Below is but a few of the of the many Federal Statutes clearly outlining legal definitions of abandon ware.
http://www.liebertpub.com/dcontent/files/samplechapters/Sample_InternetGamingLawSecondEditionRe.pdf
http://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1022&context=penn_law_review
http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/what-is-abandonware-and-is-it-legal/ <-- Is a gaming website NOT a Federal or international Statute

8)   8)  ;)

Abandonware is really a misnomer because it implies that there's no one left to claim damages if a work is infringing, which isn't the case with most software that is called Abandonware.  (Much like the distinction between hackers/crackers when discussing news on security breaches, and the lack of interest by the media to elucidate between white hat/black hat, or implying all hackers are criminals just for ease of conversation.)

Length of time before defending IP isn't really a big deal in the court rooms.  CBS allowed fan productions of Star Trek for almost a decade after Enterprise concluded that got closer and closer to full blown movie production, and now they've decided to stop it.  It doesn't matter that CBS didn't make a Star Trek TV show for 10+ years, it's still their IP.

If someone owns an IP to a program, it's not really abandoned.  Companies don't really care how customers see discontinued products, but they'll call their own fans thieves if abandonware is used without permission, and there's no telling what will tip a company off or provoke their interest.

World of Warcraft is still running and there are private servers that Blizzard isn't taking down.

Minor update, a month after you wrote this they did.  Blizzard's response was that they didn't care about the population, lost money, or fan desires to play in a snapshot of the game's past.  It all comes down to defending their IP, and if they tolerate this others would follow.

[Felderburg]

Based on what I've read, Paramount is the Star Trek copyright holder that's getting angry, rather than CBS. And mostly because of Beyond coming out.

[Noyjitat]

That was a server with over 10000 players. Those and servers selling ingame items for real $ are the ONLY servers blizzard ever targets.

[Doc Artz]

Except a group is working to buy the game and there were no legal reasons it was shut down.
It was shutdown because NCsoft was moving to the Asian market and COH did not make enough money to keep open. It was business and nothing personal on the shutdown - things got personal on the effort to rebuy.

I think we all can agree that NCsoft is NOT CBS, Disney, Blizzard, or even why should we care  there are four efforts trying to recreate the game or a successor. The bottom line is what is our progress with time frames  before we are able to have offensive/defensive  powers and some sort of a mission base, resources for power enhancers (WWs), team and/or SGs? How can one doubt that PayPal  will NOT jump at the chance to fill  the financial void? It seems as if we've move into the state of "Limbo" and don't have a dance partner.
SUGGESTION: Ironwolfs comment is a strong impetus to procedure forward. Suppose we go full force and NCsoft gets its whatever all in a wad and, if they still have money left, NCsoft  issues a CDO (Cease and Desist Order). I'm not sure what or why everyone's  so afraid of receiving a Cease and Desist Order?  Let them waste their money while we "Cease and Desist" whatever they, NCsoft,  whining about. Then we continue on in whichever development path which is best and fastest results.
-----------------------
"The most futile attempt is NO attempt at all." "Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." ~ Albert Einstein (BTW: He made that comment while being a patent clerk in a Swiss patent office).
8)

[Felderburg]

I think we all can agree that NCsoft is NOT CBS, Disney, Blizzard, or even why should we care  there are four efforts trying to recreate the game or a successor. The bottom line is what is our progress with time frames  before we are able to have offensive/defensive  powers and some sort of a mission base, resources for power enhancers (WWs), team and/or SGs? How can one doubt that PayPal  will NOT jump at the chance to fill  the financial void? It seems as if we've move into the state of "Limbo" and don't have a dance partner.
SUGGESTION: Ironwolfs comment is a strong impetus to procedure forward. Suppose we go full force and NCsoft gets its whatever all in a wad and, if they still have money left, NCsoft  issues a CDO (Cease and Desist Order). I'm not sure what or why everyone's  so afraid of receiving a Cease and Desist Order?  Let them waste their money while we "Cease and Desist" whatever they, NCsoft,  whining about. Then we continue on in whichever development path which is best and fastest results.

1. "Our?" Us who? What "we" are you referring to?

2. What does PayPal have to do with anything?

3. A Cease and Desist is the first step before actual legal action. The presence of a C&D implies, first, that a company has taken notice and believes that they are in the legal right to not only issue one but follow up with harsher legal action, and second, that they have an address of an actual person to send it to. Whether or not that person is in charge of a server, a C&D that is ignored means that the person hit with one is likely to get hit with all sorts of lawyers and legal fees, regardless of the final outcome of a case. That's the trouble. NCsoft has lots of lawyers and money - few (if any) people here have the wherewithal to deal with that. Going bankrupt (or to jail, depending on how poorly things turn out) just to play a game is not so appealing, even if that game is City of Heroes :p .

[Doc Artz]

1. "Our?" Us who? What "we" are you referring to?....."The presence of a C&D implies,"
You're correct with one phrase, The presence of a C&D implies. It's at said implication we gracefully bow out and continue moving in the current direction.
"We" simple refers to those of us who have donated financially, "who" have hope our game will  return, and "ALL" are those who believe there is a chance to bring back the game many of us spent money to play. PayPal  is, as all well know, those who would help games, Amazon, eBay and many other  customers pay for goods and services. PayPal was with COH for some time. I sort of thought that concept of finding financing while developing would have  been obvious.  :roll:
---------------
As for me,  I've began writing a Task Force (TF) concerning the ancient Greek City State. It'll be two part with the
conclusion a much more difficult challenge. The next phase of the TF would be to  join the Greecian Army in an attempt to concur the City of Troy. It's obviously a work in progress complete with maps, original contacts, in game contacts, and several surprises in each phase of the TF. If the idea is not well received or others opinions and/or suggestions  aren't forth coming, the delete button is but a motion a way.
8)

[Felderburg]

When you say "donated financially".... do you mean paying for CoH while it was live? Because, since you say we shouldn't care about the successors, there's nothing else to fund. Sure, the Titan Network has a donate button, but that's for the Titan Network, not for bringing CoH back.

Regarding PayPal, your wording made it seem like they would invest directly in bringing CoH back. But yeah, I suppose it could be used as a method for people to pay for a revival of CoH... but no one's going to be charging for that, since it most certainly would bring NCsoft's legal team down on the server.

[slickriptide]

It's very easy to say "we" should make an emulator already when you really mean "someone who is not me should step up and do all the work and assume all of the risk while they let me play on it".

Why not say, "I bet NCSoft will do nothing and who cares about their C&D's anyway?" when it's the other guy who has to deal with the consequences?

The tolerance level of other companies is irrelevant. People who bring up EA and Earth & Beyond either forget or never knew that EA never gave a smeg about E&B when it was alive. They bought Westwood Studios and E&B was just something that came along.

NCSoft has a history of shutting down emulators on principle. There's every reason to believe that once they find out about an emulator, they'll take action without even learning any more about it than the fact of its existence.

That's why people with the skills and knowledge to make an emulator have chosen to pursue other projects instead. Hand-waving by armchair attorneys with degrees frim Google notwithstanding.

[Tahquitz]

I think we all can agree that NCsoft is NOT CBS, Disney, Blizzard, or even why should we care...

Then I wish you the best of luck retreading what everyone has already discussed countless times in the last three years.

[Doc Artz]

I found a partial quote from Jack Emmert a founder of Cryptic Studios, as well as other developers who worked on COH.
"In retrospect, I kind of regret not pushing back harder at those wanting to limit the creative options. But some were really worried about having yellow ice controllers and whatnot. I let myself get convinced it was the right decision and a few players got locked out of making character concepts they had in their head because we didn't want to have 'Captain Yellow Snow' running around in game."
Maybe we should push back "harder"? Are we HEROES or weenies?  :-[
Below is the URL the interesting article:
http://www.mmogames.com/gamenews/former-city-heroes-developer-gives-impromptu-ama/
8)

[Doc Artz]

I've cited several legal articles about abandonware. Just in case no one has read any of them, below is the definition of the legality of abandonware. The source is at the bottom  :roll:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Is Abandonware Legal?
The simple answer is a definitive no. Copyrighted works that have been abandoned by their creators do not automatically become public property. On the contrary, they remain protected for the duration of the copyright, which varies from country to country. Downloading a copyrighted work is illegal, too, so it's not just the sites that could get in trouble.
So why is Abandonia still running? Like most laws, punishment only occurs if you get caught – and the other side is willing and able to make the charge stick. Most of the software listed on abandonware sites no longer have an owner, so no one can sue. In other cases the owner still exists but has decided not to enforce copyright. System Shock is currently owned by Electronic Arts, yet the original System Shock game can be found on many abandonware sites. Despite the illegality of abandonware, I could find no court cases relating to it. Companies thinking of legal action often choose to send a cease-and-desist letter before filing a lawsuit. Abandonware sites almost always respond by closing shop or taking down the offending software. Those that stay live despite threats of a lawsuit seem to do so by using international borders to their advantage. Home of the Underdogs was founded in Thailand, while Abandonia is located in Sweden. Another reason for the lack of legal precedent may be a desire for goodwill. Electronic Arts has the legal resources to remove every free copy of System Shock on the market, but what would be the point? Legal action could turn into a public relations disaster. Because of these obstacles, abandonware is fairly safe. Those who distribute it are unlikely to be fined and those who download it probably won't sued. Yet this safety could vanish at any time.
Of course, if a developer releases software for free, the story is different. Though rare, a number of games have been released under General Public License, Creative Commons and other publicly available licenses. Once a game is released in this way it can't be reclaimed – but the developer might still hold copyright on new or altered versions of the game. GOG's success also highlights the illegality of abandonware. The only difference between what's on GOG and what's on Abandonia is the threat of a lawsuit. Some justifications, like age or incompatibility with modern systems, no longer seem as strong.
Conclusion
Abandonware is illegal. Downloading commercial software for free is a copyright violation and you could, in theory, be sued. You almost certainly won't be, but that doesn't change the answer to the question of abandonware's legality."
Source: http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/what-is-abandonware-and-is-it-legal/
8)  ;D

[Surelle]

Tabula Rasa was also abandoned. NCsoft hit them with a Cease & Desist order regardless. We know what they would do, because they've already done it.

Hey, I googled Infinite Rasa the other day, and as of late last fall and early 2017, work is being done on it again.  I don't play on emus, but I thought that was interesting.  Ya can't keep a good team down!

[downix]

I was under the impression that the successors (other than Atlas Park Revival) had turned down that option, as they have already invested a lot of time into creating their own IP. I thought the IP was so that CoH 2 could be made, or so that other media (other types of games, books, etc.) could be used.

I know this is old but I hadn't seen it.

For the record, CoT is not against integrating the CoH lore were it to become available. Of course the devil is in the details.

[downix]

Look at Deadpool (Marvel) and Deathstroke (DC). Deadpool was clearly based on Deathstroke, from his fighting style, healing powers, elements of his costume, even down to real name (Wade Wilson vs Slade Wilson). This is pretty damn close to copyright infringement, but there are enough differences to keep it from being so, therefore it is legal. If people wanted to make games LIKE CoH, but NOT CoH, they could. This is the same kind of thing you are talking about with Samsung vs Apple

If you are seeking this, we have that already, a few of them in fact, under development:

City of Titans
Heroes and Villains
Valiance Online
Ship of Heroes

[Doc Artz]

We've probably all read the below article on Facebook :roll::
"Online games have become ubiquitous and are only growing in popularity," Museum of Art and Digital Entertainment (MADE) of Oakland, Calif. reasoned. "For example, an estimated fifty-three percent of gamers play multiplayer games at least once a week, and spend, on average, six hours a week playing with others online." MADE also SHARPLY pointed out that multiplayer games, today, largely eschew local multiplayer options. "Local multiplayer options are increasingly rare, and many games no longer support LAN connected multiplayer capability," the museum said. MADE wants an EXEMPTION for online games, so that libraries, archives and museums could operate servers for ones that are discontinued by their publishers. Torrent Freak notes that MADE is joined in this call by the digital rights group Pubic Knowledge and others. Public Knowledge pointed to the long-running, ongoing list of Electronic Arts games shut down — most of them licensed works — as proof that preservation is warranted. Therefore, NCSoft cannot sue anyone for using their IP until their IP is actually in use.! At that point NCSoft can the file a cease and desist. If the users refuse to stop then and only THEN can NCSoft sue the users of their product. If too much time of inactivity has passed that may not even be possible, according to the attached article. Are we HEROES or weenies?
Source: https://www.polygon.com/2017/12/23/16814482/dmca-mmo-exemption-made

[Sakura Tenshi]

Not to say I agree with him entirely, but just what all are we missing exactly serverside? I mean we get a lot of info just from what we have client side but I am sure there's a lot of hidden bits and pieces. As a side note: I'd kill for icon to just turn various powers into some kind of emote triggers so we can 'use our powers' even if it all it does is play the animations.

that said, I'm gonna do my usual and step into fantasy realm: I think if I had the time, the resources, and talent to rebuild City of Heroes... I'd keep it a kind of secret club private server. Not because I fear NCsoft's legal action, but because i'd probably change a lot of things that probably wouldn't be popular with folks. Things like changing city zones, instanced mission maps, and old story content up by... A lot. Rolling back the story to before statesman's death, possibly cut down on several blueside zones to instead focus on a well-developed version of individual zones with their own art styles. Changes to various powers (goodbye Oni pet, hello;, Kunoichi. Also: say hello to alternative power selections.) and leveling (more slots, more powers, more ways to be borken), change or alter the story in several places, alter enemy level lists and powers, blatantly insert several points related to my old RP group into the game (Carnival of light camp in Founders, the CCCP base in Kings Row, RPC mission contacts and special taskforces)

I think the only thing no one would complain about would be more costume options and more AE options.

[Felderburg]

As a side note: I'd kill for icon to just turn various powers into some kind of emote triggers so we can 'use our powers' even if it all it does is play the animations.

I think one of these threads may be what you're looking for:

https://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php?topic=12106.msg208795

https://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php?topic=12133.msg213694

I don't really understand the full mechanics, but I guess the game auto shoots powers (once you figure out how to get *those* working) at wherever 0,0,0 coordinates are on the map, and the first one fixes that. The second one is way more than just animations, but that's part of it (I think).

[primeknight]

Not to say I agree with him entirely, but just what all are we missing exactly serverside? I mean we get a lot of info just from what we have client side but I am sure there's a lot of hidden bits and pieces. As a side note: I'd kill for icon to just turn various powers into some kind of emote triggers so we can 'use our powers' even if it all it does is play the animations.

that said, I'm gonna do my usual and step into fantasy realm: I think if I had the time, the resources, and talent to rebuild City of Heroes... I'd keep it a kind of secret club private server. Not because I fear NCsoft's legal action, but because i'd probably change a lot of things that probably wouldn't be popular with folks. Things like changing city zones, instanced mission maps, and old story content up by... A lot. Rolling back the story to before statesman's death, possibly cut down on several blueside zones to instead focus on a well-developed version of individual zones with their own art styles. Changes to various powers (goodbye Oni pet, hello;, Kunoichi. Also: say hello to alternative power selections.) and leveling (more slots, more powers, more ways to be borken), change or alter the story in several places, alter enemy level lists and powers, blatantly insert several points related to my old RP group into the game (Carnival of light camp in Founders, the CCCP base in Kings Row, RPC mission contacts and special taskforces)

I think the only thing no one would complain about would be more costume options and more AE options.

I've wondered how much NCSoft was ok with the symbol of City of Heroes being permanently killed off and how Paragon Studio was so adamant to keep it that way.

When I heard about that, that was the straw that got me to stop paying for a subscription, after not playing for probably 6 months.  I wanted to support the game even if I didn't have time to play.  Then literally the next month after I stopped paying, the studio was shut down and the game went into sunset. 

I played those last 3 months every day, although a little sore from the lack of Statesman and no way to access my incarnate powers.

While I think in general, Paragon Studios was wonderful in so many ways and made the game great I think they people had their flaws too.  I have a feeling that they got bored of the world they created and felt the overwhelming need to change things up: like Statesman, Sister Psych, and Galaxy City.  And those 3 things, I felt, were going too far.   

I heard that any possible sale of the IP would require the new owner from disallowing some of Paragon Studios from being apart of the resurrected game. 

Although to get back on topic:
Please can I play my Mind/Kin again, and maybe my Claws/SR...and maybe 5 to 10 others, or 20 or all?  Please?  And without having to start over from level 1.  I won't let my subscription lapse again.  Please?