Man of Steel (There Be Spoilers)

[Olde Glory]

As a final ( I think ) post on this thread, I'll leave a link to an article on Comics Alliance that really sums up my over all problem with this movie. I only read it today but it is far more eloquent than I could muster right now. Again, NOT a knock on anyone who enjoyed it. I personally think that it lost what makes Superman stand out as "The First among Equals".  I encourage you to read it.

http://www.comicsalliance.com/2013/06/21/man-of-steel-moral-superman-review-zack-snyder-david-goyer/

[houtex]

The best way to approach this movie is probably to treat it as an elseworlds/what if kind of deal, rather than as a real Superman movie.

And that is what I've been tryin' to say all along.  Much like Nolanverse Batman, it's NOT the same as the comics.  And won't be.  Just certain details such as names, places, but circumstances, driving forces, and yes, even morality difficulties that in the comics are never, ever compromised.

It's called drama.  Must have conflict.  Most comics are about how the hell is Hero going to stop Villain.  Not how is Hero going to continue after killing  or maiming or having to make a "this one or that one" choice or such like that there.  So it was with Zod in this movie.

I'm very interested to see where it goes from here.   I have my ideas, but I doubt it'll happen... mainly because the set up requires less of Kal-El/Lois and more about Lex Luthor and others... But maybe that'd be ok. 

[Lightslinger]

And that is what I've been tryin' to say all along.  Much like Nolanverse Batman, it's NOT the same as the comics.  And won't be.  Just certain details such as names, places, but circumstances, driving forces, and yes, even morality difficulties that in the comics are never, ever compromised.

It's called drama.  Must have conflict.  Most comics are about how the hell is Hero going to stop Villain.  Not how is Hero going to continue after killing  or maiming or having to make a "this one or that one" choice or such like that there.  So it was with Zod in this movie.

I'm very interested to see where it goes from here.   I have my ideas, but I doubt it'll happen... mainly because the set up requires less of Kal-El/Lois and more about Lex Luthor and others... But maybe that'd be ok.

Snyder and Nolan have dropped a LOT of hints regarding the future with Luthor and it sounds exactly like I'd want him to be portrayed. They said all those Lexcorp logos are placed around so we can infer that Lex Luthor is an extremely powerful, wealthy industrialist. Even better, they want Mark Strong to play him, WIN.

[Golden Girl]

Other problems with killing Zod:

1 - It proves the villain is right - Zod says the fight won't end until one of them dies - a genuine Superman movie would have shown Superman prove Zod wrong, and not lower himself to the villain's level.

2 - Don't play the Superman = Christ card unless you actually intend to stick with it throughout the movie.

3 - Don't try and emphasize that Superman stands for hope and inspiring humanity to be better and then have him solve the problem of a murderous villain by murdering the villain.

4 - It puts Superman on a lower moral level than Batman.

[Captain Electric]

I haven't seen the movie yet, and accidentally clicked into this thread (and now I know Zod dies and I hate spoilers but I don't really care in this case).

For an interesting comparison, Superman is a much bigger dick than Statesman and far less endearing. I've often found that people who actually read the City of Heroes/Villains novels and are familiar with Statesman's origins have more respect for the character. He wasn't ever perfect, but he started out as a far worse person than he ended up. By comparison, if you go back and read the earlier Superman comic books, you'll find that Superman's always been a big arrogant dick, and he can't teach us anything about ourselves because he's a friggin alien. There's no point in aspiring to be more like Superman. He's just better than you. Nothing about his origin story is human, he's just easily anthropomorphised because he's more convincing than Alf (at first glance, anyway).

[ParagonKid]

Snyder and Nolan have dropped a LOT of hints regarding the future with Luthor and it sounds exactly like I'd want him to be portrayed. They said all those Lexcorp logos are placed around so we can infer that Lex Luthor is an extremely powerful, wealthy industrialist. Even better, they want Mark Strong to play him, WIN.

Who do you think will get all the contracts to rebuild Metropolis into the futuristic art-deco skyline we're used to?
Who do you think will 'consult' with the government on all the alien tech that will inventively be recovered from the wreckage now that Emil Hamilton is gone?

Ted Kord?
8)

[Tenzhi]

It didn't used to be a big deal that Superman was an alien.  It was more of an explanation for his powers and vulnerabilities than a character-defining trait.  Dehumanizing Superman by over-emphasizing his Kryptonian nature does the character a disservice, I'd say.

[FatherXmas]

Captain Electric reminded me of this.  Scroll through at your leisure.

http://superdickery.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=28&Itemid=45

[Tenzhi]

A comic from Shortpacked that I feel is relevant to the discussion.

[Taceus Jiwede]

Im glad you posted that Father X-Mas.  Superman use to be a hugemongus asshole.  The superman in this movie is a saint compared to the original superman including the murder of Zod.  Also superman or not some mofo's just gotta go and Zod was one of them.  He didn't want to do it but he had to, Zod didn't give him another choice.  Part of being a hero is doing things you don't want to do or even wouldn't normally do for humanity.  I didn't see another way for him to stop Zod, of course the writing made it that way.  But the first prison didn't hold Zod why would a second one?

[Thunder Glove]

To be fair, a lot of "superdickery" is based on covers taken completely out of context.  That context is "Superman is so pure and good that what we're showing here on the cover is meant to shock you into buying this comic to see why it happens and whether Superman goes back to being good and pure again!  Also, buy this comic!  Did we mention that you should buy this comic?"

Those explanations don't always hold up (for example, in that one, Superman tried to prevent the song from becoming a hit because he wrote it, and subconsciously had the first letters of each line spell out "Clark Kent", so Superman is afraid someone will connect the dots - that one DOES have a lot of dickery in it, but mostly because it's terribly written), but in most cases, the covers are just flat-out lies to get you to buy the comic, and Superman has not gone evil.

If you want real Superdickery, you have to go back to the Golden Age of comics.  Back in his earliest days, Superman was an undeputized two-fisted vigilante, with a style more similar to a super-powered Batman or Punisher than to the Incorruptible Pure Pureness he became in the Silver Age.  Though he wasn't an outright killer, he wouldn't go out of his way to save a villain, either.  And his definition of "villain" was a lot looser back then:

http://luchins.com/what-were-they-thinking/i-usually-dont-post-this-much-of-a-story/
http://luchins.com/what-were-they-thinking/superman-vs-cars-part-two/

And, unlike the Silver Age covers, all that is in context.

As for the actual MoS movie (my, I do digress, don't I?), it was a good movie about a raw inexperienced hero trying to become the Superman we all know and love, but it doesn't quite get him there.

[Hyperstrike]

Man of Steel lacks the magic, warmth and humanity required for a Superman story - it's a pretty well made and well acted sci-fi movie with enough disaster porn to fill more then one summer blockbuster - but it has no heart and soul, and fails to do any justice at all to one of the most iconic fictional characters in human history - the makers simply don't "get" Superman.

I don't know about that.

I think this was a fairly straight-laced look at how Superman would ACTUALLY be received in modern society.

As for "Superman would act THUS", remember that Clark's been "Superman" for all of about a minute before the invasion begins.
With possibly dozens of people who're every bit as powerful as he is (about infinitely more ruthless).
Brawls right in the street are because that's where these guys are, and having Clark simply taunt them away isn't going to work.
They're not egomaniacally stupid supervillains.  THE ARE SOLDIERS.
So you pretty much have to fight them on their own ground.

As for killing Zod.
Clark is a good guy.  Hell, maybe even a paragon.
But, socially, he's still a human.
When put in the kind of corner that Zod did, at the end, a human will kill without a second thought.
And yeah, people with some form of conscience are going to be torn up about it...AFTERWARD.

I don't think this is a failure as a Superman movie.  I think this is a look at Superman in a slightly more realistic context.
Will it jive with the comic book representation of a big Boy Scout?  At some points.  Yeah.  At others?  No.  Because the comic book version simply COULD NOT operate in the real world without going nuts.

[Hyperstrike]

2) When the shuttle's main engines go on?  That airplane is TOAST.  The forces being acted upon it would simply rip that plane to shreds, much less allow it to climb along with the much overpowered shuttle.  Shuttle *MIGHT* survive the experience, but nobody on that plane is making it.

3) The *MOMENT* one of those bolts is heated off by Supe's heat vision?  Yeah, that shuttle is attempting to fly off, now that the one bolt is gone.  Perhaps the second one will do it.  But that third wouldn't even get a chance to be melted away, because the different aerodynamic forces on the shuttle, now with an ability to lift off on the left side, and have it's nose come up because it's unencumberd... the third mount for sure is ripping that plane apart, because ol' Supes isn't holding on to it, just steadying it.

4) Yeah yeah, some sort of magic forcefield or whatever, extending to both airplanes causes them to be 'stable'.  Right.  Nope.  We'll get back to that, hang on.

5) The airplane, now unencumbered by the shuttle, is now on the *outer reaches of space?!*  People are floating in it.  Yeah... well, perhaps it's on the vomit comit trajectory, but let me tell you... it's not.   Thankfully, the tube was already compromised as evidenced by the dropped oxygen masks... oh wait, Lois should be dead YET AGAIN, or at least unconcious due to lack of O2, 'cause she STILL DOESN'T HAVE A MASK ON.

6) Further extension... *everyone* should be dead of embolisms because guess what?  Near-to-space.  Blood boils.  Too bad, so sad.  Not to mention there's not enough pressure to even let you breathe with those masks... and forget your hearing, 'cause exploded eardrums, even if you survive.

7) Ok, so EVEN IF you forget all that, the moment Supes quits pushing the shuttle, the airplane is now falling back to Earth and is in a flat spin.  But he is a honey badger, 'cause shuttle launch.  Shiny.  Good job, Supes.  "Oh wait, yeah, houtex, I totally was mesmerized by that whole shuttle thing!  My bad!"  *Vroom*  The problem is this:  ONCE he detaches the shuttle, he should PUSH it off the airplane and LET IT GO.  And then save the damn plane.  He had SO MUCH time to do that.

8) Ok, now the plane is in a flat spin.  That is a Boeing 777.  It is designed to go one way:  Forwards.  It is not designed to go into a flat spin.  Ever.  They do not even test that.  It is an event that the Engineers understand that if the aircraft in that size gets into that shape, it is a doomed aircraft.  Fighters, small planes, they can escape this condition, potentially, but it requires two things:  Altitude and a conscious pilot who knows how to recover.  Large aircraft of the type of a 777, 767, A300, A380, 747, 787... those are doomed.  It is not *impossible*, I'll grant, but it's so unlikely to even survive the spin, much less get recovered from it.  Anyway, by the time Superman gets to the airplane it is spinning VERY rapidly, sideways (yaw).  It should not last very long with that much yaw.  I point you to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauda_Air_Flight_004
That aircraft had the exact same thing, in effect, happen to it when one engine's reverse thrust system was engaged in flight.  The entire ship was lost, as were all occupants.  The ship went into an immediate left diving turn as it lost lift on that wing, and broke up fairly soon after that, as the aerodynamic forces were just too much for the ship to sustain it's integrity.
Point is, that 777 should not be surviving at this point.  But hey, magic force field, Supes has made it, I guess, but...

9) He's on the right WINGTIP!!  And look how boss he looks holding it back and all.  He's freakin' Superman!  He's gonna stop that plane from spinning and... Oh look, there it goes, wing came right off.  Brilliant plan there.  The correct placement is at the *wing root*, or worse case, at the engine pylon.  Not the wingtip.  It's not nearly strong enough, and Superman *should know this*.  He's not stupid.  He's *never* been stupid.  Here', he's stupid.

10) Also: During all this, BOTH sets of spoilers are up.  Not the right idea.  But that's a technical error of the people not knowing how an airplane works, as evidenced by how far we've gotten in this scene anyway.

11) At this point, when the wing rips off, the entire ship is lost, and people should be being flung out of it by their seats being not attached to the rest of the plane, fuselage pieces scattering... Not even Superman's magic field can help.  This is a job for the Green Lantern and his ring making a big bubble around the people.  And then looking askance at Superman, asking "So... that was real awesome with the grabbing of the wingtip, Clark."  Also, explosion from fuel being flung around and fire and hot things in the vicinity, so there's that.

12) But anyway, plane stays together otherwise, doesn't explode, just starts a roll to the right, towards the missing wing.  And now is nose down and not flat spinning.  Huh.  How'd that happen... but whatever.  Now it's slowly rolling as it is aimed Earthwards, and then the other wing, FINALLY, rips itself off the plane, where Superman bashes right through it without a care.  Ho. Key.

13) And during that, all of a sudden... everyone's flung... FORWARD?!  By what?!  The plane is GOING DOWN.  And accelerating now.  You are never going to bash your face on the next seat in front of you until you smack the ground.  But hey, again, whatever...

14) And now, finally, we get to THE moment of pure goofy and campy crap that is this scene, as if the rest of it weren't enough... Superman takes *forever* to fly to the front of the ship (we know he can reverse the planet's spin, so why so slow?) He gets to the front... and starts pushing on the radome.  Let me explain how stupid this is.  The radome of an aircraft is a fiberglass or hard plastic piece that is invisible to the radar behind it. The weather radar is behind it, and behind that, the pressure bulkhead, and then the cockpit and avionics in this case.  The plane is somehow still together, which is unbelievable, but that superman can magically put his hands on the radome and it simply *collapse* and not break apart... that's one goofy thing.  That he can continue to do this and the radar doesn't break (which apparently it doesn't) is two, and that three, this entire ship of a Boeing 777 fuselage is NOT GOING TO RIP APART LIKE TINFOIL is absolutely the cream of the crap in this scene.  And yes, I said 'crap, 'not 'crop'. 
The forces involved are literally childs play.  Do not make it so fanatical, so dumb, as to try to pass this off.  We aren't that dumb.

15)  NOW you can be flung forward in your seats, and die. 

16)  And the entire tube does a rippling collaps like a slinky?  Riiiighhtt...

17) And then... the thing rather gently is put down!?  That's... amazing structural integrity.  Beyond that, though, you just liquified everyone in the back with the G forces... the chairs should be in the cargo hold, because there is no way it doesn't slam with a gigantic force into the ground back there.

18) And the scene continues (not with this clip), that whole "Statistically speaking, it's still the safest way to travel" line was yet again used.  As were SO many other items from previous Superman movies, particularly the '78 one.

19) And finally, capping that scene?  As if Lois is the first and only one to go out the door, fainting yet again, to slide down the slide.  Goofy.  Hokey.  Unless of course she's *FINALLY* succumbing to her grievous injuries, to which, Superman should have Xrayed her (and all of them) and seen she's hurt, badly, and got her to the hospital... instead, just wafts away. 

20) And there were two face slamming events on that plane...  Someone was dead from it, as their nose got buried into their brain... but I can forgive that, can't be all morbid and things.

And that's just the airliners scene.  You gotta be kidding me if you or anyone else don't see some of that and go... "OMG, seriously guys?  You wrote AND shot this?!"

Technically everyone in that plane was doomed from the get-go.

You do NOT launch a shuttle from a plane that way.  You mount a shuttle on a plane like that for aerodynamic testing.

That the bolts fired properly, the craft wouldn't have disengaged from the jet because it wasn't under it's own power yet and a shuttle is considerably less aerodynamic than a jetliner.  It would have begun sliding back along the fuselage and into the tail.

Had they fired up the engines, it would have been the exact same thing that happened.  The tail of the plane would have been cooked.

Basically the entire film was "You failed physics forever".  But it was a comic book brought to life.

[Golden Girl]

Relevant - especially from the 5:00 mark - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkcLRL9cBtk

[Hyperstrike]

Superman 1 Deaths:
Krypton
Johnathan Kent
Police detective following Otis.
Unspecified deaths in the earthquake

Superman 2 Deaths:
Astronaut
Unspecified deaths at the hands of Zod & Company

Superman 3:
The Webster siblings
Ms. Ambrosia
Unspecified deaths in the weather anomalies Pryor generated
Evil Superman (By Clark)

Superman 4:
Nuclear Man

[houtex]

Technically everyone in that plane was doomed from the get-go.

You do NOT launch a shuttle from a plane that way.  You mount a shuttle on a plane like that for aerodynamic testing.

That the bolts fired properly, the craft wouldn't have disengaged from the jet because it wasn't under it's own power yet and a shuttle is considerably less aerodynamic than a jetliner.  It would have begun sliding back along the fuselage and into the tail.

Had they fired up the engines, it would have been the exact same thing that happened.  The tail of the plane would have been cooked.

Basically the entire film was "You failed physics forever".  But it was a comic book brought to life.

No, you can launch something in this manner:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkEUBBlIjUA

The Enterprise and the Shuttle Carrier 747 was used in this exact manner, the reason this 777/shuttle could work.  You detach, the shuttle is a flying brick for a few moments, but it *is* flying, and the carrier makes an immediate dive and then turn out of the way... 15 seconds later, you could light off the engines and off you go.

This similar concept is being done by Virgin Galactic with White Knight 2, the carrier, and Spaceship 2, the 'shuttle', for their little day trips to 'space'.  And has been proven in various missile launches and White Knight 1 and Spaceship 1, the X1, X2, X15...   Flying bricks were rather routinely flung from their carriers.

So yeah.  WAY possible.

[houtex]

Superman 1 Deaths:
Krypton
Johnathan Kent
Police detective following Otis.
Unspecified deaths in the earthquake

Superman 2 Deaths:
Astronauts There were three of them.
Unspecified deaths at the hands of Zod & Company

Superman 3:
The Webster siblings
Ms. Ambrosia
Unspecified deaths in the weather anomalies Pryor generated
Evil Superman (By Clark)

Superman 4:
Nuclear Man

Indeed.  In Superman 1, the rule of "you cannot interfere with Human history" is not only shattered by older Clark, but WAS NOT KNOWN by younger Clark.  Of course, the problem might have been he didn't yet know how to fly?  So you do the Flash thing and run.  Spin the world backwards.  Save your pops.  But noooOOOooo...  And where was Superman when the cop died?  That's right.  Biding his time until his big reveal, when *Lois* is the person in danger.   Oh, and nobody but Lois dies in the earthquake.  Superman was literally everywhere in the state making sure of that.

Superman 2... you didn't list Zod, Non and Ursa, in order, are killed by being dropped into sub arctic waters after Supes robs them of their powers.  Not to mention the sadistic hand crushing, then childish lifting, of Zod, and tossing him across the room.  Nice.  And while we're at the whole "4 - Lower Moral Level than Batman" thing, how about the jerk truck driver in the diner scene part two, where Clark thrashes him.  Of course, he pays for the damages to the diner, but what about that guy's messed up mental capabilities?  Hospital bills?  Yeah, he's a jerk, but Whatever happened to Turn the Other Cheek, eh?

Superman 3... That movie killed Superman being a good franchise. 

Superman 4... That movie poured dirt over the franchise's open grave to seal it off.

And while I'm here being an imp and riposting...

Superman Returns... How about the guys that Lex had on the island with him that SUPERMAN KILLS because he causes the ground to shake and the columns to CRUSH THEM.   OH, but let's say (can't recall if there was a survivor or not...) one of them made it.  Except now he's LAUNCHED INTO SPACE.  That's a for sure "Dead sucka!"  Because we all know that only Lex and Ladyfriend wound up out of gas on a teeny island in the middle of nowhere contemplating eating the dog, and likely to be dead from exposure or lack of fresh water.  And hey, Superman is recuperating in the hospital, so he's out for a while... Wonder if ol' Lex and Ladyfriend made it... probably not... but for sure, that poor dog is toast  :(

Yeah, Superman/Kal-El/Clark can't save 'em all, and really, even without intending to do it, he kills people all the time.  It's just a matter of fact of his being one person, and not able to bend time and space to his will without flying really really fast. 

/Oh, hey.. that brings up another thing... I'll post it elsewhere.

[Thunder Glove]

There's some debate whether the Kryptonian villains were killed in Superman II.  There as an extra scene filmed, and used in both the TV version and the extended Donner Cut, that shows the three of them still alive, and taken by the Arctic Patrol (who also nab Luthor - he gets most of the dialogue in this scene).  On the other hand, Donner himself said that it was his intention that the villains be killed (despite filming the scene in which they were still alive).

On the other other hand, the scene that shows them not being dead is also the same scene that shows how Luthor got back to civilization, so it's "canon" in a sense, because Luthor is obviously still around in Superman IV. (In the theater version, you never see him leave the Fortress)

Finally, it really fits Superman's character better to have him be so nonchalant about them falling into the pit because he knew that there was nothing down there that could hurt them, it was just too deep for the depowered villains to climb out of, as opposed to him being nonchalant because he wanted them to die.  That doesn't fit Reeve's take on the character at all.

[Magus Prime]

Reading and re-reading this thread, it got to reminding me of other characters in the past who took a grittier turn.  I remember a lot of the reactions when Miller gave Batman the dark brooding treatment.  A lot of writers accused him of ruining the character forever.  They may still feel that way but for the most part, audiences accepted this change on a wide scale.  Then I got to thinking maybe this was okay because this was the nature of the beast.  Batman was born from tragedy and he wears a dark and foreboding costume to complement this.  Maybe a jaded, abrasive hero is exactly what the doctor ordered and it just took a while for us to make that leap.  But then the same thing happened to Spider-Man.

When Todd McFarlane took over, Spider-Man became a no-nonsense character who was sick of the scum that roamed the streets.  I remember a reader voicing their opinon in a letter to Marvel about how this isn't the Spidey he grew up with and not even on his worst day would he string a bad guy up by the fingers and toes and climb up and sit on the guy's back in an effort to interrogate him.  Ostensibly, Spider-Man was using his own weight to torture this guy, pulling him apart at his joints.  This version of Peter is still very prevalent in the comics today.  He's still the quipping every-man in some of his titles but now he's also a vigilante with realistic views on how the world can be an inequitable place.  In contrast to Batman, Spider-Man is a more optimistic hero clad in bright colors.  He's like Superman Lite.  But having a Spidey deal directly more with tragedy and darker themes didn't break the character for the majority of the fans.  It actually gave him more dimension.  I have faith this will also happen for our favorite Kryptonian... who just happens to also be the only Kryptonian so... way to win that popularity contest, Kal. :P

[Taceus Jiwede]

One thing I would like to bring up actually is that comic books lack a very real part of life.  And that is human bodies are fragile.  Batman and Superman may have vows not to kill.  But they have no trouble beating the crap out of people.  And sometimes people just get an unlucky punch to the head and die for no reason.  Batman and Superman would of killed tons of people just on accident through the comic books and other movies.  And getting the crap beaten out of you sucks, it isn't just an icepack and limp the next day.  You could spend weeks in the hospital for broken bones, sprains, concussions and brain hemorrhage.  Then not to mention the criminal cases against most of these people would have them locked up for life and personally I would take being beaten to death by superman over a lifetime in prison.  But they took this aspect out of the comic books and movies.  People just walk away with bruises after batman body slams them when that could actually paralyze a person.  So I think that this magic power they have to not accidently severly injure or kill anyone makes it a lot easier to stay true to this never killing vow which make it a lot harder to make a realistic version of these movies.