Author Topic: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head  (Read 14489 times)

Colette

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #60 on: December 12, 2012, 09:34:47 PM »
"Addiction is not medically recognized as a disease."

I have a paranoid suspicion that too many people profit from exploiting such diseases for them to ever be labeled disease.

Although I've never experienced it, I've seen chemical addiction up close. Imagine someone dear to you, otherwise dynamic and strong-willed, hopelessly compelled to repeat the same obviously self-destructive behaviors until it extinguishes livelihood, health and finally life.

All those supernatural tales of corrupting mind control, like Dracula's hypnotism or the Ring of Power, it's like that exits the world of fantasy into day-to-day life. Stephen King has confessed that all his bump-in-the-night creatures are all just manifestations of his former addictions.

It's a form of slavery, like the slavery the US was founded on just mutated into another form, one where you can't see the chains.

I know that sounds overwrought and hysterical, but addiction seriously horrifies me. That's why my personal "firewall" is so high. And based on that experience, I say addiction's a disease. Can computer games exert that kind of compulsion? Dunno. Maybe it depends upon an individual's particular susceptibilities. I'd need to see the patient to know.

Certainly, CoH was not addictive for me. If I saw the symptoms, I'd rip my modem out of the wall.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 09:44:04 PM by Colette »

corvus1970

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #61 on: December 12, 2012, 09:36:58 PM »
That's why it often comes back to saying that CoH satisfied a niche market.
Truth be told, that niche contained a wide variety of interests and there are vast amounts of so called niche customers in this world who quietly sit aghast at the majority of things people are trying to sell them.

Yes, it certainly satisfied multiple niches. After all, in CoX you could be almost anything to wanted and play it almost any way you wanted.
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Zombie Man

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #62 on: December 13, 2012, 01:54:19 AM »
I used to have kleptomania, but I took something for it.

Jurisprudence fetishists gets off on a technicality.

Victoria Victrix

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #63 on: December 13, 2012, 02:09:51 AM »
Just this.  This is what I have a problem with.:

Quote
lets people exploit people with a disease for money, and to make their products in a such a way to bring out that disease in healthy people, for money.

And there does become a sort of point where exploiting or encouraging disease for money crosses the line and does or at least should become unethical.
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Segev

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #64 on: December 13, 2012, 02:06:01 PM »
the slavery the US was founded on
*cough* The US wasn't founded on slavery. It was founded in freedom. Even at its founding, there was a sizeable force that opposed the practice; it just was not yet so pervasive even in the South that it was garnering national interest over the concerns of economic and political slavery to England. Sorry for derailing with this argument; I just strongly object to having my nation's founding made out to be steeped in something loathsome when, in fact, it is one of the brightest points in human history.

dwturducken

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #65 on: December 13, 2012, 03:15:38 PM »
There were, in fact, heated arguments during both constitutional conventions over how to handle the "citizenship" of slaves.  (I used the quotes because, obviously, they were not granted citizenship status until the 14th amendment.)
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

Segev

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #66 on: December 13, 2012, 03:18:55 PM »
There were, in fact, heated arguments during both constitutional conventions over how to handle the "citizenship" of slaves.  (I used the quotes because, obviously, they were not granted citizenship status until the 14th amendment.)
Indeed.

Colette

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #67 on: December 13, 2012, 03:44:40 PM »
"The US wasn't founded on slavery."

Tut! I've told y'all a thousand times what hyperbole is.

But because you object, I'll rephrase. "...the slavery the US was infected with since its inception." Content?

dwturducken

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I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

Segev

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #69 on: December 13, 2012, 03:57:43 PM »
"The US wasn't founded on slavery."

Tut! I've told y'all a thousand times what hyperbole is.

But because you object, I'll rephrase. "...the slavery the US was infected with since its inception." Content?
Quite. [redacts himself before he carries it further]

JaguarX

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #70 on: December 14, 2012, 06:14:17 PM »
*cough* The US wasn't founded on slavery. It was founded in freedom. Even at its founding, there was a sizeable force that opposed the practice; it just was not yet so pervasive even in the South that it was garnering national interest over the concerns of economic and political slavery to England. Sorry for derailing with this argument; I just strongly object to having my nation's founding made out to be steeped in something loathsome when, in fact, it is one of the brightest points in human history.

except the part about killing off/relocating a certain group of people to expand the nation. But I think that is total different ball game here. The point being, even the great founding of this country, on freedom, wasnt absolutely free of loathsome behavior.

Segev

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #71 on: December 14, 2012, 06:58:33 PM »
The "westward expansion" was not "the founding of this nation."

Not denying there were dark things that happened alongside the great things. But I won't have the founding and its principles sullied by inaccurate attempts to lay blame for things not part nor parcel to it.

JaguarX

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #72 on: December 14, 2012, 07:10:43 PM »
The "westward expansion" was not "the founding of this nation."

Not denying there were dark things that happened alongside the great things. But I won't have the founding and its principles sullied by inaccurate attempts to lay blame for things not part nor parcel to it.

Wasn't actually talking about the westward expansion as that is a whole different animal in itself.
 
I was meaning the part where they docked in a port and branched out from there. There were people already there even in the original 13, even in the first one and it wasn't exactly a friendly exchange of people already there just handing over their land.

But one of those principles that cant be denied when the country was founded is that minorities and other groups like women were not considered "equal" or afforded rights of what was described as god given natural rights of all men that this country was founded on.

Segev

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #73 on: December 14, 2012, 08:53:20 PM »
The assertion that "minorities" were not considered equal is...flawed. Black slaves were not, and I think blacks in general were painted with the broad brush to enable the justification of the dehumanizing practice of slavery, but recall that this was under hot contention even back then. Other minorities, if they were citizens of the colonies and not some other national identity, were NOT considered unequal. I'm not going to get into the male/female business, because the attitude back then was not atypical of...anywhere in the world. The Christian/Chivalric respect for womanhood and the gentler sex was, if anything, head and shoulders above what many other cultures followed at the time.

Was it perfect? No, nothing ever is. But it was not steeped in anything grotesque or horrific that serves to taint the founding of this nation, and I still won't allow the pretense that it was. This nation was founded on high ideals of freedom and respect for the individual's right to make his own choices and reap the benefits and penalties thereof. It was, at the time and in view of history leading up to it, the single most progressive and liberated set of philosophies ever created, and it set the course for many of the future emancipations and improvements of equality that came after. Far from being founded on slavery or inequality, this nation was founded in freedom and equality of opportunity unparalleled by anything at its time.

If one is going to try to claim it to be steeped in sin and ignorance and inequality, one may as well compare the founding to today in terms of technology and call people of that time moronic buffoons for not having iPhones and airplanes.

corvus1970

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #74 on: December 14, 2012, 09:11:35 PM »
Hrms...

Perhaps this slavery sidebar could be spun off into its own thread?
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JaguarX

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #75 on: December 14, 2012, 09:12:22 PM »

Was it perfect? No, nothing ever is. But it was not steeped in anything grotesque or horrific that serves to taint the founding of this nation, and I still won't allow the pretense that it was. This nation was founded on high ideals of freedom and respect for the individual's right to make his own choices and reap the benefits and penalties thereof. It was, at the time and in view of history leading up to it, the single most progressive and liberated set of philosophies ever created, and it set the course for many of the future emancipations and improvements of equality that came after.

No doubt about that.  Although there were some horrible parts, it was the ideals that founded this nation that is powerful. And that is what makes it a great thing. I dont think anywhere in the history of man can something great be pointed to without it's bloody parts. Alexander the Great, considered a great person, a hero, but him and his army killed thousands to reach his goal. Caesar, another person that is considered a hero to mythical proportions was not exactly a saint and wasnt above having people executed in horrible manners. The Roman Empire, river flowed red with blood of enemies and desenters, and women and children but it still doesnt take away fro mthe magnificant achievement. It's acceptance of it as a whole the good and bad that does those great achievements great justice. but at the same time ignoring the hardship of the blacks, and natives during the founding of this country is a disservice to them. No great achievement is perfect. And tha tis what makes it great IMO.

Even now, are there somethings that can be better in this country, of course. Are there other places that are worse, of course. Is it perfect here, hell to the no. Is this a great country nonetheless, hell yeah.

And you're right, I said minorites for the natives and blacks at the times. I dont think the Asians was arriving in great numbers yet that I know of. The Natives were not even considered citizens and blacks were not counted until later for southern House seat purposes.

but tying in slavery with the topic and addiction, some would say that addiction is some form of slavery even thoug hthe ideal is that everyone is free to come and go. A point of a game, and the great part of any game is it's addictive quality or else you would not have people coming back again over and over for years on end. I think eventually game addiction will get classified as an official psy problem and if asked ten twelve years ago if this was an abstract idea I would probably have said yes. But now, we even have dog psychologist, and given that games are on the rise, especially ones that allow people to never even have to be next to a person to conversate, it will get to the point where it will be officially classified as an addiction. Remember at one point, Cocaine addiction was something that was said to be overblown. Even Coca-Cola said back in the day that their drinks was safe and not addicting in anyway (back when it contained cocaine, although i nrelatively small amounts and was a n exlixer to decrease the appetitie and increase awareness, like cocaine was supposed to do.) Now it's considered crazy to say that cocaine and other drugs are not addicting. Games will soon get to that point but more onthe level of coffee addiction or food addiction I say.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 09:17:31 PM by JaguarX »

Osborn

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #76 on: December 14, 2012, 11:13:31 PM »
The "westward expansion" was not "the founding of this nation."

Not denying there were dark things that happened alongside the great things. But I won't have the founding and its principles sullied by inaccurate attempts to lay blame for things not part nor parcel to it.

Can we quit and as a nation get over this doey eyed jingoistic exceptionalism where we can pretend nothing bad ever happened, nothing bad still happens, or if we acknowledge it, it didn't 'count' because the ends (for you) justified the means (to them)?

And just.. acknowledge that, no matter how good things are now, we as a people busted a lot of eggs to make that omelet? Maybe show a bit of humility towards the sacrifice others made for us against their will to help make this country what it is today?

I'm not asking for you to be ashamed of what you have now, really. The past is done with, and we should be more concerned with working towards the future. But that said, if we can't even acknowledge problems within our past so we can whitewash it to make ourselves feel better about it with the intention of pretending we were always perfect (and when we weren't it was aberrant), you pretty much guarantee that we're going to do something terrible today or in the future.

The country was founded with slavery as a major concession to keep it together. Yes, later, other people decided that was bad and stopped it, and yes later, other people still decided that the treatment of minorities afterwards was bad and have worked and are still working to fix it. So yes, good things came out of it in the end, I suppose, but that doesn't erase the history.

You trying to ignore the history to pretend that everything was perfect from day one belittles the hard work that ended up making this country what it is today, and like I said, guarantees that it's going to relapse. It belittles those still working working today to get fair treatment.

I don't see how you expect us as a people to improve if you pretend that we're already perfect and always have been.

But tying in slavery with the topic and addiction, some would say that addiction is some form of slavery even though the ideal is that everyone is free to come and go. A point of a game, and the great part of any game is it's addictive quality or else you would not have people coming back again over and over for years on end. I think eventually game addiction will get classified as an official psychological problem and if asked ten twelve years ago if this was an abstract idea I would probably have said yes. But now, we even have dog psychologist, and given that games are on the rise, especially ones that allow people to never even have to be next to a person to converse, it will get to the point where it will be officially classified as an addiction. Remember at one point, Cocaine addiction was something that was said to be overblown. Even Coca-Cola said back in the day that their drinks was safe and not addicting in anyway (back when it contained cocaine, although in relatively small amounts and was an elixir to decrease the appetite and increase awareness, like cocaine was supposed to do.) Now it's considered crazy to say that cocaine and other drugs are not addicting. Games will soon get to that point but more on the level of coffee addiction or food addiction I say.

Again, I don't find that games, done properly or fairly are in and of themselves inherently bad. I don't find gambling or most vices in moderation to be. Nobody wants to shut down the State Fair or Chuck-E-Cheeses even though with tickets and prizes they're basically children's casinos with rides or ball pits. It takes somebody already predisposed towards compulsion and obsession (for various reasons) to get 'addicted' to things, at which point I find that one should treat the compulsion, no the object of the compulsion.

Because almost anything can be the focus of compulsion disorders. The focus itself is immaterial. That's why I started my posts in this thread with an almost knee jerk defense of video games.

But that's not what we're dealing with here. We're not dealing with 'ordinary games'. We're dealing with games, designed by medical doctors, specifically to make them unhealthy, specifically to trap people with disorders and specifically to help bring out disorders in people who have a predisposition towards, but no manifestation of said. That is a very big difference. And it honestly crosses the line to becoming an unethical one.

This isn't somebody getting you to come back to their soda or food because it tastes good and fills you up, with the tragic side effect that some people predisposed towards compulsion latching onto the food and getting unhealthy. This is closer to the situation of them getting a medical team or a scientific team together to chemically engineer the food to make people who are otherwise healthy addicted.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 11:25:38 PM by Osborn »

HarvesterOfEyes

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #77 on: December 14, 2012, 11:17:25 PM »
See the mind-control is working.

They've gotten you to forget CoH.

corvus1970

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #78 on: December 14, 2012, 11:23:24 PM »
I'd really like it if, again, that tangent was spun off elsewhere or just dropped. Its not productive in this thread.

So, please?
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ukaserex

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Re: How NCSoft and Nexon Intend to Play With Your Head
« Reply #79 on: December 15, 2012, 02:06:35 AM »
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